Don't remove the veteran ranks

darth.zazenb16_ESO · January 2016

TL;DR The veteran system doesn’t suit PVP. Changes can be made to battle-levelling so PVE can keep a vertical level progression that can be expanded in the future.

Reading over the forums, I've seen a lot of people complain about the veteran system, and how it makes the game unfair for lower level PVP’ers. It seems to me that all the problems stem from how the veteran system affects PVP. However, the veteran system is a decent level progression for PVE players who have completed the main story, and want to move into Cadwell’s Silver/ Gold. While it does take time to level up in veteran, there have been changes to speed this up (for example lowering the experience required to 850k from 1m, and doubling the experience gained from completing veteran quests). All the Veteran system is, is a rename of levels 51-66, with increased XP requirements: you still only get 1 attribute point and 1 skill point per rank. However, I realise more can be said, so here are some of the more common arguments I have seen:

“The veteran system is unfair” – In PVP yes, the veteran system is unfair. As soon as you hit Vet 1, you’re pitted against players who have spent a lot of time and effort levelling up to be better PVP’ers, and you no longer have battle-levelling. However, this is an underlying problem with how PVP is done: when you reach veteran, you can only play in alliance campaigns where players span from Vet 1-16. This can easily be fixed by adding campaigns for specific ranges, e.g. Vet 1-8 and 9-16. Alternatively, changes could be made to the battle-levelling system to effectively bring everyone up to Vet 16.

"I can't compete with people who are Vet 16" - This argument makes no sense, it’s basically saying “people who have played for longer than me are better than me”. This is how games work, the more you put in, the more you get out. Taking out the Veteran system won't remove this, it will just move the blame to something else, like the Champion system. Aside from how players build their characters, the only advantages Vet 16’s will have over you are in how many champion points they’ve spent and the gear they’re using. Similar to the point above, changes to the battle-levelling system can fix this.

“Vet 16 players have better gear than me” – Of course they do, they’ve spent a lot of time and effort getting this gear, they deserve it. If the veteran system is removed, all of that effort is going to be wasted, as well as all the time spent levelling up to vet 16 in the first place.

“The champion system is much better” – No, it’s not. A horizontal progression system is better for PVP but useless in PVE. It takes a lot of experience to get 1 champion point, which will only boost whatever bonus you’ve chosen by about 0.3%. This, combined with the cap, has made the champion system pointless. It needs a lot of work if it’s going to replace the veteran system.

“Removing the veteran system will help retain new players” – Really? This is not true. New players in the game will spend a lot of time getting to level 50, if they haven’t left during this time then they aren’t likely to leave when they reach Veteran. Even if they do get fed up with veteran, there’s nothing to stop them from making alts.

“There’s no point making alts because you can just do Cadwell’s Silver/ Gold” – There are more reasons for making alts than just completing other factions. You can make a dedicated PVP build, try out different classes or just start again in a new faction. This doesn’t really relate to the veteran system at all.

“Veteran is too difficult in PVE” – For anyone who says this, I can only think that they rushed through the zones. If you’re only in the game for PVE, you should be taking the time to complete zones fully, not just rush the story. By the time I starting doing Cadwell’s Silver/ Gold, I averaged 2 vet ranks above the zone I was in because I took the time to complete everything.

CONCLUSION

The main problem that I’m seeing here is that the veteran system simply doesn’t suit PVP, and I agree, it doesn’t. However, that doesn’t mean it needs to be removed from the game completely and replaced with a champion system that offers few benefits (don’t argue that the champion system is good, it’s a pitiful excuse for a replacement). The changes need to be made to PVP itself, for example the battle-level system. Don’t remove the veteran ranks to replace them with a system that was bad when it was introduced, and has been getting worse with each “improvement”. Changes can (and should) be made to the battle-levelling system instead so that PVE can keep a decent vertical level progression that can be expanded on for future zones.

TL;DR The veteran system doesn’t suit PVP. Changes can be made to battle-levelling so PVE can keep a vertical level progression that can be expanded in the future.

wayfarerx · January 2016

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Most of the complaints I've seen (or made) about VR revolve around the fact that it makes leveling alts tedious and boring, and guess what, it does. I just started leveling my fourth alt through VR and, even with the lowered XP requirements and the boosts to questing XP it is still tedious and boring.

The silver and gold zones are fine the first time through but are nothing but a chore after that. They're not hard, they don't really teach you how to play or prepare you for endgame, they're just busywork.

What I have yet to see is a cogent argument for why they should stay. I've seen "I earned them and don't want to lose them" (spoiler alert, you won't lose anything except a little label). It's not clear what the OP wants besides vertical progression, and hey, they're still going to be gating gear on CP so that's not going away either.

The only real difference that the planned VR removal will make is that endgame progression is account wide as opposed to character bound. How can this be a bad thing?

Stranglehands · January 2016

There is practically no "vertical progression" in veteran pve. Nor should there be - it made sense when cadwell’s silver/gold followed by craglorn was all there was, but soon there are going to be three pve zones to do as well, and it clearly makes sense for players to be able to do stuff in whatever order they feel like. Even without pvp in the equation the veteran ranks are looking clearly like an obsolete stopgap

attackjet · January 2016

People are mad about CP's in non-vet PvP not vr

darth.zazenb16_ESO · January 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

Most of the complaints I've seen (or made) about VR revolve around the fact that it makes leveling alts tedious and boring, and guess what, it does. I just started leveling my fourth alt through VR and, even with the lowered XP requirements and the boosts to questing XP it is still tedious and boring.

This issue seems to be more about the experience required to gain a veteran rank. I'm not saying the system is perfect, the gap between ranks could be made smaller/ easier. Furthermore, if you're on your 4th alt of course it's going to be tedious, you've essentially played the same 100-hour game for the 4th time where the only difference is your character.

wayfarerx wrote: »

The silver and gold zones are fine the first time through but are nothing but a chore after that. They're not hard, they don't really teach you how to play or prepare you for endgame, they're just busywork.

They aren't supposed to prepare you for endgame, they come after the endgame as additional content and currently allow you to level further in veteran ranks.

wayfarerx wrote: »

What I have yet to see is a cogent argument for why they should stay. I've seen "I earned them and don't want to lose them" (spoiler alert, you won't lose anything except a little label). It's not clear what the OP wants besides vertical progression, and hey, they're still going to be gating gear on CP so that's not going away either.

Losing the vertical progression has a huge impact on PVE in the event that new zones are added (which they will be). If vertical progression is capped at level 50, new zones will also be capped at this level. All the Gold/ Silver zones will be reduced to this level. This completely removes any challenge from the zones, which would make them far more tedious than you previously claimed.
Furthermore, players who have any veteran ranks will lose the attribute points gained from this (a maximum equivalent of 16 levels). Also, it's more than just a label, like the red alliance rank beside your name it is a symbol of how far you've progressed through the game.

wayfarerx wrote: »

The only real difference that the planned VR removal will make is that endgame progression is account wide as opposed to character bound. How can this be a bad thing?

The champion system is already account-wide, veteran removal will not change this.

darth.zazenb16_ESO · January 2016

Stranglehands wrote: »

There is practically no "vertical progression" in veteran pve. Nor should there be - it made sense when cadwell’s silver/gold followed by craglorn was all there was, but soon there are going to be three pve zones to do as well, and it clearly makes sense for players to be able to do stuff in whatever order they feel like. Even without pvp in the equation the veteran ranks are looking clearly like an obsolete stopgap

The essence of veteran ranks is progression, it is a continuation of the 1-50 levelling system. Without the veteran system, the Cadwell zones and Craglorn will all be set to level 50 (as will future zones), making them poor endgame content.

In terms of player choice, Zenimax have said they will allow us to choose which order we complete the other alliances in, and if we call Craglorn (and to some extent Cyrodiil) the endgame (which it is), they should be the last things you do.

The only potential issue the veteran ranks might fix is lack of progression, they are not a stopgap to anything, just a continuation of levelling. It makes no sense to go backwards, there's nothing wrong with a level cap, but why remove 16 levels? The veteran ranks don't have to be removed to improve the champion system.

wayfarerx · January 2016

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

This issue seems to be more about the experience required to gain a veteran rank. I'm not saying the system is perfect, the gap between ranks could be made smaller/ easier. Furthermore, if you're on your 4th alt of course it's going to be tedious, you've essentially played the same 100-hour game for the 4th time where the only difference is your character.

We've been playing the "make them smaller / easier" game for almost two years now. First it was earn a boatload of verteran points to get a VR. Okay that sucked let's base them of XP. Hmm still sucks, lower the XP required. Still sucking? Crank them lower!

I'm flipping every POI and killing every boss in silver and gold and am on track to be vr14 - vr15 when I'm done. They could cut the XP by half and it would still be a tedious, mind-numbing grind.

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

They aren't supposed to prepare you for endgame, they come after the endgame as additional content and currently allow you to level further in veteran ranks.

They don't come after endgame, Molag Bal is not endgame. Endgame is vet dungeons, trials, PvP, etc. Right now they sit awkwardly between completing the tutorial (1-50) and actual endgame activities. After VR removal they will finally become "additional" content for farming skill points and CP.

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

Losing the vertical progression has a huge impact on PVE in the event that new zones are added (which they will be). If vertical progression is capped at level 50, new zones will also be capped at this level. All the Gold/ Silver zones will be reduced to this level.

You still get vertical progression with CP. You may not like the specifics of how the champion system works (I have some issues with it as well), but they're gating gear on it so it is effectively vertical progression.

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

This completely removes any challenge from the zones, which would make them far more tedious than you previously claimed.

I'm doing these zones right now. The ONE time I have died so far is because my dog got it's head stuck in one of my kids toys and I had to step away from my computer. They are already face-roll easy, the hope is that scaling post VR removal will actually breathe new life into these zones.

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

Furthermore, players who have any veteran ranks will lose the attribute points gained from this (a maximum equivalent of 16 levels). Also, it's more than just a label, like the red alliance rank beside your name it is a symbol of how far you've progressed through the game.

No attribute or skill points will be lost, you will earn the extra 15 points while leveling 1-50. The VR label next to you name is no reason to put a 13 million XP wall before reaching endgame for every single character.

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

The champion system is already account-wide, veteran removal will not change this.

Veteran removal will move the gear gates from character bound to account bound, which is kind of the whole point.

bikerangelo · January 2016

A v1 character is still battle leveled in pvp to v15, both in nonvet and vet. I haven't heard a single pvp'er complain about their v3 being too low in vet levels, as you can literally achieve the same stats (or better) as the v16s around you.

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

Losing the vertical progression has a huge impact on PVE in the event that new zones are added (which they will be). If vertical progression is capped at level 50, new zones will also be capped at this level. All the Gold/ Silver zones will be reduced to this level. This completely removes any challenge from the zones, which would make them far more tedious than you previously claimed.
Furthermore, players who have any veteran ranks will lose the attribute points gained from this (a maximum equivalent of 16 levels). Also, it's more than just a label, like the red alliance rank beside your name it is a symbol of how far you've progressed through the game.

I'm going to address this as concisely as possible because most of this has already been answered by ZOS one way or another. I don't care how they rescale the silver and gold zones since they were set in place for players to grind to v16 anyway; now they'll only be used for a new player who's just reached level 50 on their first character with 0 CP and needs a way to level.
ZOS is compensating the attribute loss by adding 2 points every other level (if I remember correctly, it's not for each level but they've consolidated the 16 points to be given to players during their 1-50 levels). Essentially, you'll have the same amount of attribute points.

Vertical progression is still very active as long as you haven't reached the CP cap. Besides, ZOS is already going to remove them in the Dark Brotherhood DLC, it's a bit late to argue for their continuation.

Darkonflare15 · January 2016

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

Stranglehands wrote: »

There is practically no "vertical progression" in veteran pve. Nor should there be - it made sense when cadwell’s silver/gold followed by craglorn was all there was, but soon there are going to be three pve zones to do as well, and it clearly makes sense for players to be able to do stuff in whatever order they feel like. Even without pvp in the equation the veteran ranks are looking clearly like an obsolete stopgap

The essence of veteran ranks is progression, it is a continuation of the 1-50 levelling system. Without the veteran system, the Cadwell zones and Craglorn will all be set to level 50 (as will future zones), making them poor endgame content.

In terms of player choice, Zenimax have said they will allow us to choose which order we complete the other alliances in, and if we call Craglorn (and to some extent Cyrodiil) the endgame (which it is), they should be the last things you do.

The only potential issue the veteran ranks might fix is lack of progression, they are not a stopgap to anything, just a continuation of levelling. It makes no sense to go backwards, there's nothing wrong with a level cap, but why remove 16 levels? The veteran ranks don't have to be removed to improve the champion system.

Its too late they have been planing the removal of the vet system for more than a year. With the removal of the vet system every end game content will be available to more players. It will be easier to play with alts competitively and more fun. Plus it opens the world after you reach level 50 or finish the main story to players to explore the rest of the world without limits.

NewBlacksmurf · January 2016

Veteran levels are better off removed from the entire game.

Now I will say that I don't agree with how ZOS is talking about using CP's are any form or type of progression but VR's need to go and stay gone....as well as any talk about using CPs in place of any VR stuff.

Skinzz · January 2016

My alt is vet 5 with casual play time and was created a week ago. The new system makes it extremely easy to gain a vet level. Yall just lazy

acw37162 · January 2016

Please remove the vet ranks, sooner the better

Didgerion · January 2016

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

Don't remove the veteran ranks

Don't remove VR16 please just remove everything else. And yeah rename "VR16" to ""

wayfarerx · January 2016

xskinzcity wrote: »

My alt is vet 5 with casual play time and was created a week ago. The new system makes it extremely easy to gain a vet level. Yall just lazy

Well sir you have us on the ropes it appears. The hundreds of pages of forum threads with the thousands of comments debating the nuances of game design, progression systems, endgame pacing, player acquisition and retention... all of it was an elaborate smoke screen to cover up the fact that many of us are just lazy. You gaining four vet ranks in a week just goes to show how whiny and petulant we are. Good show, good show.

Now that I have been thoroughly routed I will return to Betnikh and faceroll some Bloodthorns to show how motivated and dedicated I am to... facerolling Bloodthorns in Betnikh I guess.

Samuel_Bantien · January 2016

One of the major downfalls of this game is the Veteran Rank system. The major fiasco at launch was that after beating your original faction (if you could even find the invisible MAIN quest giver to complete it!) was that you finally hit 50 or should I say VETERAN RANK 1. What was a Veteran Rank said everybody? Well... Veteran Rank 1 was your ticket to the other 2/3rds of the game you were pretty much REQUIRED/FORCED to do if you wanted to hit Veteran Rank 10 (the max at the time). - Not to mention the mobs hit A LOT harder than they do now. (Pretty much imagine Veteran Maelstrom Arena mobs as every mob in the game when you hit the V1+ zones.)

Even then the Veteran Rank system still puts me off from this game and should have been removed in update 1.1. The Veteran Rank system was again one of the major downfalls of this game because forcing players to do Caldwell's Gold/Silver (2/3rds of the rest of the game at the time) to level up and hit the for real max level (VR 10) was very, very unnecessary and lazy. Keeping Veteran Ranks has really kept the game from growing as just about everyone sees it as another grind (which everyone likes /sarcasm, AND IT SURE WAS A GRIND). Most Veteran Rank zones (10 in all) was not even enough to hit VR10 even when doing all Dolmens, Quests, and main quests... you had to grind like you did now.

tl;dr
The VR system is lazy endgame content and should have been removed in update 1.1 especially when the majority complained about it and quit because of it. Keeping it only causes more players to quit due to choosing wrong race/class combinations (i.e. look at every race change thread in the forums) and unnecessary grinding especially for ALToholics.

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Its too late they have been planing the removal of the vet system for more than a year. With the removal of the vet system every end game content will be available to more players. It will be easier to play with alts competitively and more fun. Plus it opens the world after you reach level 50 or finish the main story to players to explore the rest of the world without limits.

Except for the part where new players finally hit Level 50 and have to grind 160 CP to wear our Veteran Rank 16 gear. They should just replace every Veteran Rank armor's level requirement with "Rank 160 CP" or "Rank 30 CP" - my friend is a VR5 and recently came back with only 26 CP so technically he would only be able to wear VR 2 gear for example.

wayfarerx · January 2016

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

Except for the part where new players finally hit Level 50 and have to grind 160 CP to wear our Veteran Rank 16 gear. They should just replace every Veteran Rank armor's level requirement with "Rank 160 CP" or "Rank 30 CP" - my friend is a VR5 and recently came back with only 26 CP so technically he would only be able to wear VR 2 gear for example.

They are going to grant champion points to anyone who does not have enough to equal their current veteran rank. So your friend would get 24 cp just for logging in after VR removal.

Samuel_Bantien · January 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

They are going to grant champion points to anyone who does not have enough to equal their current veteran rank. So your friend would get 24 cp just for logging in after VR removal.

They did exactly what you just said during the launch of 1.6 (7.5 per Veteran Rank / 90 max) - he's V5 and has less than supposed 37.5 cp he should have earned. If they do implement it they better allow it during all patches or returning players won't be returning for another grind. He quit again because getting to the CP cap was just another grind, and I have several other friends who returned thinking the same thing. CP system is just as bad as the VR system except it creates an even greater imbalance. The catch-up system is only decent at best for new players and it is still just another huge grind for them.

If they want to continue with the CP system they better increase the cap to a greater extent than 51... No one probably thought of this but the greater the CP number, the faster they will level through the CP levels to grab that awesome "CP 160 required" item for maxed out gear. 204 would at least be ideal every update due to giving players something to do while they wait on the next update.

templesus · January 2016

Please remove so my vet 1 2 and 3 become maxed xD

Love_Chunks · January 2016

If ya'll wanna git skill points then ya'll still gonna have to stop bein' lazy n' do cads silva n' gowld'.

Autolycus · January 2016

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

The essence of veteran ranks is progression, it is a continuation of the 1-50 levelling system. Without the veteran system, the Cadwell zones and Craglorn will all be set to level 50 (as will future zones), making them poor endgame content.

Cadwell's silver & gold are already poor endgame content. We are beyond that point in the game. It doesn't matter if they are level 50 or not, people can and will still do them for achievements, and for personal reasons, such as being genuinely interested in the lore. ESO is not the first MMO that has more "leveling" zones than is necessary to reach endgame content.

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

In terms of player choice, Zenimax have said they will allow us to choose which order we complete the other alliances in, and if we call Craglorn (and to some extent Cyrodiil) the endgame (which it is), they should be the last things you do.

Each DLC released for this game makes Craglorn not only less meaningful in terms of progression, but also less appealing for leveling. People will still do this for the aforementioned reasons, but I will add in the desire to occasionally re-run trials in Craglorn for fun, or to get the achievements. The only reason people justify this as "endgame content" right now if because we lack a trial that's on par with our current end-game capabilities, which is only true for another month and a half anyway.

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

The only potential issue the veteran ranks might fix is lack of progression, they are not a stopgap to anything, just a continuation of levelling. It makes no sense to go backwards, there's nothing wrong with a level cap, but why remove 16 levels? The veteran ranks don't have to be removed to improve the champion system.

Despite my comments above, I'm not opposed to leaving the vet ranks in either. But I pose this question for you: If we can only ask ourselves what reason they may have for removing them, then how can we presume to know what ZOS has in store for the future of this game? I never once expected them to leave everything they came up with at launch the way it was on day one. This game and it's community have already undergone multiple transitions. ZOS likely has a lot more planned out than most of us give them credit for.

DHale · January 2016

So much qq ing I made vr1 food and potions still had my level 15 food and level 45 food then I got to vr 5 made food and potions got to vr 10 so fast made food and potions at that level got to vr 15 now I still have most of the crap at the lower levels from level 3 to vr 16 in nine days. It's not slow nor tedious. It was slower and more tedious to make my pots and make my food which will sit there until I make my next vr 16 toon. If it was up to me I would change it to level 64 and call it a day. 90 percent of you will never learn to play your class anyway. I leveled when vr 10 was the max and vet levels were 4 million per. I... like most real players can do four man vr 16 dungeons with a vr 1. I will keep my keys until I am vr 16 which will be next week. Most battle leveled pvp ers have better stats at vr 9 than I do at vr 16 but even with your willpower or agility rings most will be playing black desert and have ruined the game before moving on as you requested a thousand nerfs to any class you don't play and to weapon abilities you do not use. I just hedge my bets get at least 280 skill points per toon and level every weapon because that's how we adapt to things as the game changes. Quit complaining and get leveling.

SecretAtoz · January 2016

I am not yet a vet rank player, but will be tomorrow or after that. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I agree with OP, I would prefer vet to stay or at least delay removing vet ranks in 1 or 2 months since I didn't get a chance to experience it yet lol. I wanted to experience vet first before they remove it, so I can see why people hate it lol. I could of hit vet three weeks ago, but decided to re-roll a new character and stick with it.

Another reason I want vet ranks to stay is I want progression in character level when I get experience gained from quests. By doing all the quests in one alliance, quests in main story line, and quest from coldharbor and also exploring most of the area, you should be able to hit 50. I am sure you can also do quests and explore in other two alliances; that is a lot of extra content there and that is a lot of experience to gain from and oh, don't forget Orsinium DLC as well. In my opinion, without vet ranks means that the level will cap at 50 and you will not gain anymore experience, but at least you can still progress in skills, but that is it. It just feel like the level cap decrease from 65 to 50 and I will get to miss that fun.

I am still trying to figure out how this champion system work, I will find out when I hit vet tomorrow.

Duiwel · January 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

xskinzcity wrote: »

My alt is vet 5 with casual play time and was created a week ago. The new system makes it extremely easy to gain a vet level. Yall just lazy

Well sir you have us on the ropes it appears. The hundreds of pages of forum threads with the thousands of comments debating the nuances of game design, progression systems, endgame pacing, player acquisition and retention... all of it was an elaborate smoke screen to cover up the fact that many of us are just lazy. You gaining four vet ranks in a week just goes to show how whiny and petulant we are. Good show, good show.

Now that I have been thoroughly routed I will return to Betnikh and faceroll some Bloodthorns to show how motivated and dedicated I am to... facerolling Bloodthorns in Betnikh I guess.

I agreed with your first post the moment I read it, after this I was lying on the ground with a broken leg from laughing.

Thumbs up wayfarerx, you said what all of us agree with!

(note my signature does not include my NA chars)

Love_Chunks · January 2016

DHale wrote: »

So much qq ing I made vr1 food and potions still had my level 15 food and level 45 food then I got to vr 5 made food and potions got to vr 10 so fast made food and potions at that level got to vr 15 now I still have most of the crap at the lower levels from level 3 to vr 16 in nine days. It's not slow nor tedious. It was slower and more tedious to make my pots and make my food which will sit there until I make my next vr 16 toon. If it was up to me I would change it to level 64 and call it a day. 90 percent of you will never learn to play your class anyway. I leveled when vr 10 was the max and vet levels were 4 million per. I... like most real players can do four man vr 16 dungeons with a vr 1. I will keep my keys until I am vr 16 which will be next week. Most battle leveled pvp ers have better stats at vr 9 than I do at vr 16 but even with your willpower or agility rings most will be playing black desert and have ruined the game before moving on as you requested a thousand nerfs to any class you don't play and to weapon abilities you do not use. I just hedge my bets get at least 280 skill points per toon and level every weapon because that's how we adapt to things as the game changes. Quit complaining and get leveling.

Right on. Thats pretty much how I leveled my toons. I raised all of my skills lines to 50 and all of my skills to atleast morphing point. Its so much easier to level up skills which I dont have room for on my bars by turning in quests. Even more so, if I get all of the quests in each area, im usually @v16 before cadwells gold is even finished. From that point on, all I have to do is grab shards and do the main questlines.

helediron · January 2016

After handful of VR16 toons, i welcome the removal of veteran ranks. Try reading same book seven times over. First time is always exiting, second time gives new insights. But after that it goes meh. Even after VR removal there is still much to do for each toon: lots of skyshard collecting, gearing up and leveling skills. But now it's more of personal choice what to do. I like that. CP system being account wide is a great feature.

Getting those 160 champion points is pretty much easy. My first account is full and capped. I decided to make first VR16 to second account. After a patch implemented the CP catchup, i had about 70 CP earned the old way. I was doing Wrothgar and the public dungeons. In Old Orsinium i got CP every five minutes. Now i have 250 CP on the second account, and that's without IC grind (not buying it), mostly Wrothgar questing, grinding in Grindaleft for motif pages and few normal Maelstöms.

Overall i see the VR removal as maturing of the game. VRs were a stopgap solution and champion system is a longer lasting progress system. They are also overlapping each other. Veteran ranks are simply getting obsolescent.

Stranglehands · January 2016

I think the fact that craglorn is vr11-14 is why it's so dead and empty. It's exactly the sort of place you would want to go right after completing 1-50, not after you've dragged yourself through another two 1-50s to level up.

willymchilybily · January 2016

read the TL;DR version.

but I disagree with your view point, and think you view point is based on a lack of foresight and understanding of how outline removal of VR will beneficially impact the game for ALL players.

Zinaroth · January 2016

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

As soon as you hit Vet 1, you’re pitted against players who have spent a lot of time and effort levelling up to be better PVP’ers, and you no longer have battle-levelling.

Battle-levelling works until VR15, since that is what it scales you up to.

Enodoc · January 2016

darth.zazenb16_ESO wrote: »

The essence of veteran ranks is progression, it is a continuation of the 1-50 levelling system. Without the veteran system, the Cadwell zones and Craglorn will all be set to level 50 (as will future zones), making them poor endgame content.

That is technically true, but also entirely the point of removing them. Here's some things I posted in other threads on why VRs need to be removed; primarily based on the implied ordering of content that resulted from Veteran Ranks, and the premise of endgame progression and gating different forms of endgame content behind each other:

Enodoc wrote: »

For me, it's all about the numbers. 1-10 comes "before" 11-14. So Cadwell's comes "before" Craglorn. Since the numbers are indicative of difficulty, 11 is harder than 1. Thus Craglorn is harder than Cadwell's. Remove VRs, and everything says "50". No more of that subliminal "Cadwell's comes first" stuff because Cadwell's is 50, and Craglorn is 50. Craglorn is still harder than Cadwell's, but not because of the "difficulty numbers"; instead, it's harder just because it's designed for groups rather than solo/duo.

(It appears this view is echoed by Stranglehands, above)

Enodoc wrote: »

I'm sure someone's said this reason already (haven't read the whole thing), but the main reason I want them gone is so that you don't feel forced into doing Cadwell's before you can do Craglorn, PvP or Trials. If they had introduced Craglorn as VR5 and Trials as VR10, rather than Craglorn as VR11 and Trials as VR12, the problem people have with VRs would not have existed.

Enodoc wrote: »

The problem is that Veteran Ranks were supposed to be a reward for continuing to play past Level 50 and progressing through the endgame content, but when [ZOS] started locking content behind those Ranks, they [the ranks] became the incentive to play and the content became the reward. This is backwards logic for how endgame should work - you should get rewarded with arbitrary numbers for completing endgame content that you want to do, not have to gain arbitrary numbers to get rewarded with the endgame content.

LukeArayo wrote: »

So basically vet rank and the endgame zones were mean't to be rewards for going passed lvl 50?

Enodoc wrote: »

Yeah, essentially. And the further you got "beyond" Lvl 50 into either Cadwell's Silver/Gold or PvP, the higher VR you were rewarded. When Craglorn and Trials were introduced as VR11+ content, the gaining of VRs was no longer seen as a reward for progress, but rather a requirement to get to that new content. The removal of VRs, as I see it, is an attempt to remove the negative connotations associated with Veteran endgame and return to a state of "reward for progress" with CPs rather than the "rewarded with content" state that VRs are in.

Enodoc wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Point is, they didn't need to get rid of Vet Ranks to make people like you happy. They just needed to give you a viable way to level them that didn't involve the mess of Silver and Gold.

Now that is true. If the VR cap had stayed at 10, and Lower Craglorn had been introduced as VR3-5 content with Upper Craglorn as VR8-10 content, then VRs would have been fine. But they decided to make Craglorn VR11+, "forcing" you through Cadwell's (VR1-10) to get there.

Erdmanski · January 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

The only real difference that the planned VR removal will make is that endgame progression is account wide as opposed to character bound. How can this be a bad thing?

This is one of the most logical and promising statements I have seen regarding the removal of Vet ranks.

The only issue is with the CP cap. When they remove Vet ranks, they need to significantly increase or remove the CP cap entirely. If they don't, the majority of players will be at the CP cap already and have no way to progress their characters.

It's simple. Remove vet ranks, remove CP cap and significantly increase XP it takes to gain CP.

Taemethius · January 2016

So we pretty much wasted all that time going to v16 just to have it removed? Where does all that xp we earned go?