I hate streamers.

Snowgoons wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

The fact is those folks get paid to play the game by those that watch their livestreams. They are entertainers and they want the game designed in a way that will fit their method of play the best so they look amazing when they take out a group of 20 who do not do it professionally. It would be no different than a group of gold farmers whining that there isn't good enough loot on world bosses. At the end of the day their impact on ZOS's bottom line would be marginal at best if they decided to stop playing, and we would eventually forget all about them.

Again if a group of 20 gets taken on by one person in this game, no matter how good that person is, the entire group of 20 needs to port back to the starter islands and actually learn to play the game again.

That's like saying if 5 people can't beat Michael Jordan at basketball they must suck. These guys play it professionally. I didn't comment that they were good or bad players, and I would certainly hope that given the amount of time and effort they invest in this game they would be pretty good at a very specific aspect of this game. My point was really just to explain that when it comes down to it they represent a very small demographic who PvP like they do. Also, their opinion doesn't hold as much weight as you might think and ZOS needs to please the larger group of players not a select few. The biggest problem right now in PvP is the lag and that effects all of us and it should be ZOS' priority.

Snowgoons wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

this is unbelievable thread. streamers has a good points everyone agree. you should be glad they are expressing them

whatever you disagree (with your big scale point of view) write about it here, popularize it, maybe maybe you convince that vocal streamers to support it to. all i see i jealousy and pathetic attacks on them. they are maybe vocal minority, but you are nothing, only complain about them and doing personal attacks

Yup it's scary being the first to suggest something. Honestly these streamers spend time figuring out how to make the game more challenging and rewarding and people that don't are here bashing them lol.

That is absolutely not what they do. They spend their time finding the most efficient way to min/max and gain followers, and that is not what all of us would consider fun.

Snowgoons wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Snowgoons wrote: »

Is this asking too much? King Richard, Fengrush, sypher, Lefty_Lucy have basically laid out how to fix this games pvp and make it more enjoyable for everyone. Can these items be implemented? You can find them in the We Are ESO broadcast, among other outlets, can you please just listen to them?

There isnt a person on that list that I as a PvPer agree with. And the last thing I as a PvPer want is some Internet Famous kid representing me on anything.

ZOS needs to listen to the community as a whole. Not specific players with an internet following trying to push specifically what they want while claiming to be speaking on behalf of the rest of us. ZOS takes quite a bit of feedback seriously, if you hadnt noticed people like Fengrush and his followers are getting exactly what they want, Arenas. Even after the childish, immature and unnecessary behavior they showed during one of the ESO Lives last year.

Good on them for getting what they wanted.But I absolutely refuse to keep my mouth shut when players demand ZOS take note of vocal minorities and treat them as if they represent the whole.

Seriously? Step back and re-read how you are fawning over these guys (who btw I have nothing against as a whole although Fengrush HAS killed me plenty of times… hmph).

This is a game and you are attacking people commenting in here because they don't love these guys and their opinions the same way you seem to. There are a lot of people who play this game that have to actually stop once and awhile to go to their real jobs or take care of their real families dealing with real day to day worries.

[Minor edit for baiting commentary]

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Snowgoons wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

this is unbelievable thread. streamers has a good points everyone agree. you should be glad they are expressing them

whatever you disagree (with your big scale point of view) write about it here, popularize it, maybe maybe you convince that vocal streamers to support it to. all i see i jealousy and pathetic attacks on them. they are maybe vocal minority, but you are nothing, only complain about them and doing personal attacks

Yup it's scary being the first to suggest something. Honestly these streamers spend time figuring out how to make the game more challenging and rewarding and people that don't are here bashing them lol.

That is absolutely not what they do. They spend their time finding the most efficient way to min/max and gain followers, and that is not what all of us would consider fun.

^This, people need to realize the steamers are there to maxiumize their following and profit potential, nothing more. Once a new game shows up that they can gain them more followers and income, they will drop ESO and move on to the next thing. The only thing they care about making better is their income steams.

Snowgoons wrote: »

sirrmattus wrote: »

And why should people who play eso for a living represent the whole eso community. I work for a living and get to pvp 2-3 hrs a day, barely having enough time for 1 silver or gold mixed in. I think I'm more in tune with the eso community then those guys.

If you pvp 2-3 hours a day you are definitely not as qualified as someone who "plays eso for a living"

you also said that like you know what you are talking about lol, king richard has a job :P Im pretty sure fengrush, sypher and lefty do as well....

but even if they didn't have a job outside of playing eso, they would still be more qualified to talk about the balance seeing as all of their time would be spent playing eso...

would you want someone who flies planes 2-3 hours a day flying your jet at the airport or the guy that flies them all the time everyday?

I'd prefer the 2-3 hours guy....at least I can trust his sanity and 2-3 hours a day is not a bad experience.

Zheg wrote: »

Not going to turn this into an anti streamer thread, but the majority of people who pvp every day play objectives

sirrmattus wrote: »

And why should people who play eso for a living represent the whole eso community. I work for a living and get to pvp 2-3 hrs a day, barely having enough time for 1 silver or gold mixed in. I think I'm more in tune with the eso community then those guys.

I've been playing mostly PVP since launch, with characters in all three factions on NA. Although large guild groups are usually behind successful objective captures during prime time, the majority of players I encounter every day are in very small groups or solo, just looking to have fun killing enemy players.

I'm usually solo or grouped with 1 or 2 others. In my case, I have to actively avoid big keep battles or my frame rate drops into the single digits and I can't use abilities or swap weapons properly. So I find a spot in between keeps to gank enemy reinforcements, get into smaller battles near resources, etc. Very late at night (after 3am PST), there are often fun smaller battles near keeps that don't cause my frame rate to drop as bad.

I've enjoyed running in organized guild groups in the past, and I have a lot of respect for skilled PVP group leaders. Running with a full raid group is a very specific kind of gameplay experience, though.

I don't have much time to play these days - just want to log on for a few hours and relax, have a lot more fun fighting solo and very small groups. Running in a full keep assault raid group or PVE trials, etc., is not what I would call relaxing.

Different people enjoy different aspects of the game, of course. But among those of us 'casual PVPers' who don't have a lot of time to play, a lot are running in Cyrodiil solo or very small groups.


.

strikeback1247 wrote: »

The best fights I've had were fights between two large random groups with random players. No teamspeak, no coordination, just pure chaos and I loved it. Nowadays it's all STACK ON CROWN while spamming heals or aoe. I would love to have more tools to deal with groups that just stack, move and spam... I just want the good times back when people were fighting in pure chaos and were just having fun. PvP just got too tryhard for me...

exactly how i feel. group caps would solve this issue

I hate the "STACK ON CROWN" groups

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Snowgoons wrote: »

Is this asking too much? King Richard, Fengrush, sypher, Lefty_Lucy have basically laid out how to fix this games pvp and make it more enjoyable for everyone. Can these items be implemented? You can find them in the We Are ESO broadcast, among other outlets, can you please just listen to them?

people like Fengrush and his followers are getting exactly what they want, Arenas. Even after the childish, immature and unnecessary behavior they showed during one of the ESO Lives last year.

Actually - thats more of the other guys than me, mainly Sypher - who 1vXs the most of us all Id say. Ive typically been a small group player (4man) .. up to 8ish. As the quality of large scale PvP has decreased, I have gone to smaller scale PvP and 1vXing. Getting what I want? Fixing server lag for example (through changes, like AOE caps). I like open world pvp - and value cyro performance overall. If you think new players come to the game and their first visit to azuras in 999 ping is enjoyable and theyre likely to stay, youre out of your mind.

sirrmattus wrote: »

Snowgoons wrote: »

sirrmattus wrote: »

Morozov wrote: »

wtb the "large scale" warfare I was promised in Beta. I could care less about dueling and arenas. If I wanted to solo yolo I would go play blacktops or something

this is all that goes on in BWB, HAD, AZURAS
except in bwb, its more like the advertise. in vet campaigns its more like "STACK ON CROWN!!!!!"... "UNMOUNT SNEAK!!"... "DONT CHASE, DONT CHASE!!!"

*** that, I rather SOLO PVP
but i understand that 1v20 or 1v10 for that matter is unrealistic.

If you can't beat someone 10v1 or 20v1 you need to stop "pvping" and go get some champion points and levels and gear....that's also ZOS' fault for the champion point system, but no one should be complaining they couldnt finish the guy thanks to a stupid system, these players don't even like the champion point system as well, to add to that, most of the players complaining they couldn't take someone 1v10 have similar champion points and just don't have the skill involved in getting the kill.

Look at any of king richard's youtube videos and you see players that are just plain bad getting 1v10'd I mean give me a break lol. Every single time I see players eating a CASTED crystal frag from king richard in a 1v1 I'm like "yup that's probably the guy on the forums complaining he wants a frag nerf lol"

I'm confused. I have 420 cp. I have never been able to beat 10 players. I don't think it's realistic to be able to beat 10 players. Why would anyone want a system where 1 man can beat 10? How is that balance? Unless he is picking them off 1 by 1, it doesn't make sense. I've watched richard and sypherpk and fengrush. I've watched the evolution from them being pvp gods to being regular guys again and they hate it.

Theres no reason not to beat a number of players just because 10 of them showed up. They actually have to go through the motions of killing you then. The problem is when players strengths are amplified by artificial mechanics. Lets use AOE caps again for example, because its clearly the worst in the game. You think it makes sense to take less damage exponentially as you bring more people to outnumber your opponent? Not happy with just having the advantage of outnumbering him? AOE cap mitigation is higher than pretty much any buffs or equipment modifications you can make to your character. Thats how strong it is. If youre in favor of that, youre in favor of imbalance. If 10 new players tried to fight a group of 20 FENGRUSHs, they would have to deal with AOE caps as well. Would being outnumbered and outskilled not be enough? Is there any reason I should take half damage as well while fighting them?

Here's a clip from yesterday killing more than 10 people alone. Sure you cant just run in, I dont think anyone does. Its a matter of tactics and timing. None of these players deserved to kill me, and yet you cant properly engage them due to AOE caps. Theres something wrong with that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOlr98lXcLY

sirrmattus wrote: »

And why should people who play eso for a living represent the whole eso community. I work for a living and get to pvp 2-3 hrs a day, barely having enough time for 1 silver or gold mixed in. I think I'm more in tune with the eso community then those guys.

I work for a living too, more than 40 hours a week. Streaming is my creative outlet. Please tell me how you are more in tune with the ESO community (serious question I dont expect youll actually reply to).

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

People disqualifying their very well based arguments because they're 'solo PvPers and doesn't represent the ESO crowd'....? Sounds to me like you're the people running in a 50 man 'warfare' zerg that are ruining this game.

No ones disqualifying their arguments. I dont solo pvp but was never against the addition of Arenas. What I disagreed with Fengrush on was the things he wanted implemented in large scale PvP that would turn Cyrodiil into his personal playground for 1v10 or more.

This is a general misconception of people that just catch my arguments in passing. Assuming I want to make changes that make the game easier - even though many times its been prefaced that it would simply raise the ceiling, and I dont want easy solutions.

The reality is cyro is a craphole for performance and ball groups that simply come down to being a numbers game. They have 30 people running together, you have 10. Your options? Nothing - go somewhere else. Hows that for an enjoyable game experience? When the game simply comes down to how many people you brought, it becomes pretty simple and boring - and the challenge doesnt really exist.. which is what a lot of people are in for.

Long term goals of removing AOE caps is to bring the game back to where it actually used to be in beta and during release. If people clumped inside your ults without any defense, they died. Today, the damage is spread around, and the more people there are, the less pain you feel. This rewards hoarding numbers and on top of it, stresses the server (and the more there are, the more calculations exist, and the less chance anyone dies so the calculations go on longer).

This is counter productive. The solution is to break these groups up. If they behave like this, they would simply die by well placed and effective AOE. If they were split up and utilizing different builds instead of everyone is an AOE damage dealer or a pure healer - we wouldnt have calculations where skills are hitting 40 people and doing multiple breakdowns of picking 6 targets to do 100%, another 20 for 50%, and then others for 25%, and then picking those who arent hit... Because thats whats going on everytime people aoe in crowds - instead of applying <X> to all in area.

They dumbed down the game because people complained about dying in mass. They had a point too - because there were broken builds at release. Rather than fix the builds and the issues causing people to ult endlessly, they changed AOE caps. Changing AOE caps didnt fix that issue by the way... they fixed ult generation after and that stopped those builds. But they never revisit AOE caps after that.


If you have the patience to read it, or have ever listened to my podcast explanations - youd know theres a lot of truth that really cant be refuted. Thats why in a 5000 vote poll on the PVP forums 87% voted to not have AOE caps. And yet they stand in place today. There arent remotely close to 5000 people willing to vote anymore, because they lost so many players.

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Stonesthrow wrote: »

Snowgoons wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Snowgoons wrote: »

Is this asking too much? King Richard, Fengrush, sypher, Lefty_Lucy have basically laid out how to fix this games pvp and make it more enjoyable for everyone. Can these items be implemented? You can find them in the We Are ESO broadcast, among other outlets, can you please just listen to them?

There isnt a person on that list that I as a PvPer agree with. And the last thing I as a PvPer want is some Internet Famous kid representing me on anything.

ZOS needs to listen to the community as a whole. Not specific players with an internet following trying to push specifically what they want while claiming to be speaking on behalf of the rest of us. ZOS takes quite a bit of feedback seriously, if you hadnt noticed people like Fengrush and his followers are getting exactly what they want, Arenas. Even after the childish, immature and unnecessary behavior they showed during one of the ESO Lives last year.

Good on them for getting what they wanted.But I absolutely refuse to keep my mouth shut when players demand ZOS take note of vocal minorities and treat them as if they represent the whole.

So what you are saying is Fengrush's fans acted a fool and got what they wanted? It shouldn't have taken that, and being "famous" has nothing to do with it, where is your list of things to make the game better Korah? Where is your podcast to discuss balancing issues and add to why you think certain changes should happen?

It's people like you that SHOULD keep your mouth shut because you add nothing to the conversation.

Seriously? Step back and re-read how you are fawning over these guys (who btw I have nothing against as a whole although Fengrush HAS killed me plenty of times… hmph).

This is a game and you are attacking people commenting in here because they don't love these guys and their opinions the same way you seem to… "where is YOUR podcast?"… grow up. There are a lot of people who play this game that have to actually stop once and awhile to go to their "real" jobs or take care of their"real" families dealing with "real" day to day worries.

It amazes me that just because we don't share the same level of love for these guys we are automatically branded as jealous or haters. I have nothing personal against them, I have even watched their youtube channels to get their perspective on builds or just for kicks. Just because you don't admire someone doesn't mean you're jealous of them. They play this game in a way that simply doesn't appeal to me. If a single person can 1v20 there is a serious lack of balance, which is really the only tangible contribution they have provided.

Im willing to entertain those notion - but where is the line drawn? 1v2? 1v5? Where is it OK and balance is drawn? Is it balanced I cant receive 50% damage mitigation when fighting 20 people alone? Why do they get it and I dont? Is it unbalanced I dont get any kind of assistance when being outnumbered? Talking about what is balanced is purely subjective - but to be clear.. its not my goal to be able to 1v20. Its my goal to get rid of artificial crutches in the game that have no positive value. As I said in the post earlier, I come from small group play, but 4v20 shares the same problems 1v20 does. Sadly enough, even the people that run 20 are complaining about the same issues against those that run 40 now that damage reductions in PVP has created the same problem smaller groups had.


But by all means guys, just attribute all arguments to a 1vX superman complex and not an overarching theme that has both diminished the quality of PVP both from its value and its performance.

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

this is unbelievable thread. streamers has a good points everyone agree. you should be glad they are expressing them

whatever you disagree (with your big scale point of view) write about it here, popularize it, maybe maybe you convince that vocal streamers to support it to. all i see i jealousy and pathetic attacks on them. they are maybe vocal minority, but you are nothing, only complain about them and doing personal attacks

The only good thing about this thread are the comments.

The OP itself is very badly addressed. Give me one person who would agree to watch thousands of hours of steaming content to catch those useful suggestions those people vocalized.
And there are thousand of suggestion, not all of them are good....are you sure you want all of them implemented without the game being adjusted and ready for those changes first?

Bear in mind, people are streaming for entertainment. They are not streaming for ZoS, they are not streaming to create solutions for the game.


That stuff is really reserved for the podcast - where issues have been focused on in a "constructive" way. I dare say constructive in that sense because Ive actually toned some of my rhetoric down to a degree on podcasts to keep them constructive. On my stream, I will just do what I do.. because that is not an outlet on what needs to be done, even if I do talk about skills, balance, and game issues in depth.. which I do often.

A lot of negativity comes off in some areas because we have had the podcasts, and weve reached out to ZOS. They have turned down opening up a channel to communicate with us - because they really dont want to. It is only through mobilizing the community that we really have any influence. And if theres arguments against things we say, Im always happy to talk about it - I love to and welcome it. Ive had my views on things changed and altered... if I wasnt willing to, Id be foolish and bullheaded.

"FENGRUSH wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

It amazes me that just because we don't share the same level of love for these guys we are automatically branded as jealous or haters. I have nothing personal against them, I have even watched their youtube channels to get their perspective on builds or just for kicks. Just because you don't admire someone doesn't mean you're jealous of them. They play this game in a way that simply doesn't appeal to me. If a single person can 1v20 there is a serious lack of balance, which is really the only tangible contribution they have provided.

Im willing to entertain those notion - but where is the line drawn? 1v2? 1v5? Where is it OK and balance is drawn? Is it balanced I cant receive 50% damage mitigation when fighting 20 people alone? Why do they get it and I dont? Is it unbalanced I dont get any kind of assistance when being outnumbered? Talking about what is balanced is purely subjective - but to be clear.. its not my goal to be able to 1v20. Its my goal to get rid of artificial crutches in the game that have no positive value. As I said in the post earlier, I come from small group play, but 4v20 shares the same problems 1v20 does. Sadly enough, even the people that run 20 are complaining about the same issues against those that run 40 now that damage reductions in PVP has created the same problem smaller groups had.


But by all means guys, just attribute all arguments to a 1vX superman complex and not an overarching theme that has both diminished the quality of PVP both from its value and its performance.

I would say you're correct. They "solved" the problem by hitting everyone so hard with the nerf bat that we are now basically hitting each other with pool noodles.

(Pic for reference.)
What many of us have been asking for a long time now is small scale PvP, which we thought we were getting with the justice system. But of course the idea for duels was scrapped. Then we thought we might get it with IC, but again, nope. No arena. There is a way they could give everyone what they want, but they have to first start to listen to what we want. And I mean everyone not just 5 people who get payed to play this game.

They so far haven't done much to address the issue of people zerging. There has to be a severe penalty to it or it's never going to stop and the lag will just continue to get worse. This game encourages people to move in a tight ball and spam AoE's. Maybe the answer is to include some friendly fire when spamming AoE's in zergs. Maybe they need to remove shield stacking. There have certainly been many ideas thrown out over the last two years, let's see if any of them actually work. So far the only thing they have accomplished is taking away the possibility to be effective with a small group or even solo.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

this is unbelievable thread. streamers has a good points everyone agree. you should be glad they are expressing them

whatever you disagree (with your big scale point of view) write about it here, popularize it, maybe maybe you convince that vocal streamers to support it to. all i see i jealousy and pathetic attacks on them. they are maybe vocal minority, but you are nothing, only complain about them and doing personal attacks

The only good thing about this thread are the comments.

The OP itself is very badly addressed. Give me one person who would agree to watch thousands of hours of steaming content to catch those useful suggestions those people vocalized.
And there are thousand of suggestion, not all of them are good....are you sure you want all of them implemented without the game being adjusted and ready for those changes first?

Bear in mind, people are streaming for entertainment. They are not streaming for ZoS, they are not streaming to create solutions for the game.


That stuff is really reserved for the podcast - where issues have been focused on in a "constructive" way. I dare say constructive in that sense because Ive actually toned some of my rhetoric down to a degree on podcasts to keep them constructive. On my stream, I will just do what I do.. because that is not an outlet on what needs to be done, even if I do talk about skills, balance, and game issues in depth.. which I do often.

A lot of negativity comes off in some areas because we have had the podcasts, and weve reached out to ZOS. They have turned down opening up a channel to communicate with us - because they really dont want to. It is only through mobilizing the community that we really have any influence. And if theres arguments against things we say, Im always happy to talk about it - I love to and welcome it. Ive had my views on things changed and altered... if I wasnt willing to, Id be foolish and bullheaded.

@FENGRUSH There are many points that were brought in the podcasts that are good. But the way all of you presented them was not professional ... at least not professional for the title of the podcast you've chosen.

All that "AOE" spam in ESO Live stream or that "PVP arena" spam two shows back just proves how acidic is the podcast's environment. All those "quit eso" threats in the podcast are pathetic ...did you discuss some ToC before initiating that podcast?

And I know you are getting fun..maybe less fun lately ..but you have a very high expectation from the game...you want ESO to be fun 6 hours a day 7 days a week. You want some changes that just won't work for other players that plays it only for 6 hours a week. This PVP arena for example will be a content that just a small part of community will enjoy providing all the classes are balanced by then...and if the classes are unbalanced than there will be just few of the players of that OP class who will enjoy it.

Just be professional in those podcast bring ZOS to a dialog see real reasons why they are not ready to implement the features.

Nallenil wrote: »

Care for the 100-1000 players who want some smart play in pvp? Or care for the 100000 unskilled keyboard headmashing players who just want the next pve dlc? As much as pvp goes, zos will only cater for the pve enthusiasts that play pvp for unlocking vigor. This game is a business and it makes more money from pve and crown store. No reason for them to care for the minority (pvp). Playing pvp in beta and during release was the most fun I've had, that's as much as I can say.

Wow you've got some numbers there huh? Are you sure those numbers are ESO related?