PvE in Cyrodiil PvP zone. Would it be better separated?

CaptainObvious · January 2016

joshcrum wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

How about you people just leave my f**king Cyrodiil alone? Do I come into Wayrest and start telling you to move buildings around?

Also please move the buildings in Wayrest around, that city layout is horrible! lol

Now that Orsinium is out, I wonder if Emeric has castle envy.

joshcrum · January 2016

The idea was to hopefully remove some, or potentially completely eliminate, PvP lag by simply separating an apparently non-essential part of Cyrodiil

Alucardo · January 2016

Please stop basing your argument around it being a fix for lag. It's not. Nonvet can be just as busy as vet campaigns but have zero lag. It has nothing to do with the towns. It's the calculations.

CaptainObvious · January 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Please stop basing your argument around it being a fix for lag. It's not. Nonvet can be just as busy as vet campaigns but have zero lag. It has nothing to do with the towns. It's the calculations.

How many people go to BB for PvEing? Any interaction affects the entire area. That has already been confirmed. There is only one data structure containing all of the players in the area. Remember that monsters have AI, pathing as well as the region assertion to which you refer as "the calculations."

Additionally, how many people bypass pop lock in BB versus the other campaigns?

Since players have limited play time in BB, I suspect most people attempt to maximize it.

joshcrum · January 2016

Honestly the only interaction I've seen between PvE Cyrodiil and PvE Cyrodiil is when a large group of my guild mates and I ganked a couple lowbie guys in a delve because we wanted the AP bonus from the boss. That's pointless for us and them. And don't tell me "That's PvP" because that is pointless regardless. 8-24 against 2? You can't tell me there is a point to that. Especially when we're a full V16 group and they're somewhere around V2-V12. That's stupid. It serves no purpose whatsoever, and if it is holding the game back through lag, it should be gotten rid of. I mean honestly, how many PvP groups stop at a dolmen to take it out while riding to defend a keep to which they had their port cut because the resources were all rolled? How many PvP groups take a moment from reinforcing the siege during an emperor push to run a quest in Cyrodiil?

joshcrum · January 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Please stop basing your argument around it being a fix for lag. It's not. Nonvet can be just as busy as vet campaigns but have zero lag. It has nothing to do with the towns. It's the calculations.

I never said it was a guaranteed fix for lag but it is sure worth a try. If they removed the deer in Cyrodiil to try and handle lag then my argument is obviously valid. Dolmens themselves have a huge AoE effect which can be seen from a great distance when becoming, and while, active. That alone could be a major cause for lag since the devs stated that AoE is hard on the server based upon the range it is detectable from.

joshcrum · January 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Please stop basing your argument around it being a fix for lag. It's not. Nonvet can be just as busy as vet campaigns but have zero lag. It has nothing to do with the towns. It's the calculations.

I can guarantee they have some serious issues with hardware and calculations since apparently console runs fine with no lag in Cyrodiil, but just as I and CaptainObvious pointed out, every mob you encounter in Cyrodiil is running those same calculations including all those mobs spawning at a dolmen. Add to that the fact that none of us know for sure what happens in a delve is actually on a separate server, those calculations may be added in as well. On top of that, none of us know whether or not all mobs are being calculated whether a player is within visible range or not, so we truly have no idea what kind of calculations are going on. My idea definitely limits the amount of calculations, and you cannot argue that. Therefore it is logical, although not guaranteed, to reduce lag.

joshcrum · January 2016

The reason why I posted this thread is because of various conversations with guild PvP groups, various runs with guild PvP groups ganking EP PvE guys, and recently two guys who switched alliances to gank a guildmate of mine just to force him from "their" grind spot which was a delve in Cyrodiil. I've been thinking about it for some time, but that last bit was too much. Grinders can grind anywhere, and the moment they start threatening the lives of fellow alliance members just to "own" a PvE grindspot in PvP, things have gone way too pointlessly far. By nature PvP players and PvE players are completely separate, so why not separate their areas? By combining them all you end up with are PvE players who know better than to go there, PvE players who just get ganked over and over again, and PvP players who aren't good enough to truly PvP so they get their rocks off by ganking PvE players and thinking they're cool for that. The whole setup is a waste of time and resources when everyone could be fully satisfied with a simple separation.

sadownik · January 2016

Well since devs seem really devoted to keeping pve and pvp separated what would be the only reasonable suggestion wouldnt it?

joshcrum · January 2016

sadownik wrote: »

Well since devs seem really devoted to keeping pve and pvp separated what would be the only reasonable suggestion wouldnt it?

I think so. But honestly, it isn't the devs. After talking to players in-game and running Cyrodiil PvP and PvE myself, they ARE separate. When PvEing in Cyrodiil, the idea is to stay away from anything PvP. When PvPing in Cyrodiil, the idea is to PvP, and even a guy stopping to mine rubedite ore will get some *** tossed his way in TS. They ARE separate, no matter what anyone does about it, so why not just make the game accept it and roll with it?

Volkodav · January 2016

joshcrum wrote: »

To begin with I see no reason why there should be PvE in Cyrodiil as it has done nothing but create annoyance, controversy, and lag in my opinion. We all know (including the devs/game gods) that there is a serious ongoing lag issue in PC Cyrodiil. It seems to me that having dolmens, delves, and a huge number of quests and mobs in Cyrodiil cannot be helping resolve the lag issues. If the deer were removed to help control lag, then think of what the rest of this extra stuff is causing. Furthermore this is all PvE content which truly has no place in PvP Cyrodiil. As far as PvP is concerned, this content is only useful to build ultimate which a small amount of scattered mobs could handle easily. There are AP bonuses from killing various delve bosses, but those could easily be gotten from completing resource capture quests, player kill quests, etc.

I believe the best option is to introduce PvE Cyrodiil campaigns while removing all PvE content from the current PvP Cyrodiil campaigns outside of scattered mobs for ultimate regeneration. It seems likely that this would help lessen the current PvP lag issues, while also helping to give a more accurate count on server population since all players counted would be there for PvP only. At the same time, Cyrodiil PvE content could be expanded for the new PvE campaigns. All new Cyrodiil PvE group dungeons, trials, arenas, bosses, etc. including large group keep raids involving a large number of npc's on both sides. If nothing more, it would add more campaigns to Cyrodiil which would better diversify the campaign options players currently have while satisfying the needs of the extreme PvE-only and PvP-only players.

What are your thoughts on this?

Ok,ok.You want to remove any PvE quests,animals,dolmens,and such so that there will be no lag for,..PvPers? Have I got it right?
Thing is,PvE players dont want Campaigns. They are in it for the play,such as quests,which you want gone,and crafting food which sometimes takes meat,which you also would like gone.
Cyrodiil was never supposed to be all for PvP,or they wouldnt have added quests for PvErs,and advertised it for both.
Also,if there are no PvErs to kill who will the PvP gankers prey on?Other PvPers?
Just wondering,...

joshcrum · January 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

joshcrum wrote: »

To begin with I see no reason why there should be PvE in Cyrodiil as it has done nothing but create annoyance, controversy, and lag in my opinion. We all know (including the devs/game gods) that there is a serious ongoing lag issue in PC Cyrodiil. It seems to me that having dolmens, delves, and a huge number of quests and mobs in Cyrodiil cannot be helping resolve the lag issues. If the deer were removed to help control lag, then think of what the rest of this extra stuff is causing. Furthermore this is all PvE content which truly has no place in PvP Cyrodiil. As far as PvP is concerned, this content is only useful to build ultimate which a small amount of scattered mobs could handle easily. There are AP bonuses from killing various delve bosses, but those could easily be gotten from completing resource capture quests, player kill quests, etc.

I believe the best option is to introduce PvE Cyrodiil campaigns while removing all PvE content from the current PvP Cyrodiil campaigns outside of scattered mobs for ultimate regeneration. It seems likely that this would help lessen the current PvP lag issues, while also helping to give a more accurate count on server population since all players counted would be there for PvP only. At the same time, Cyrodiil PvE content could be expanded for the new PvE campaigns. All new Cyrodiil PvE group dungeons, trials, arenas, bosses, etc. including large group keep raids involving a large number of npc's on both sides. If nothing more, it would add more campaigns to Cyrodiil which would better diversify the campaign options players currently have while satisfying the needs of the extreme PvE-only and PvP-only players.

What are your thoughts on this?

Ok,ok.You want to remove any PvE quests,animals,dolmens,and such so that there will be no lag for,..PvPers? Have I got it right?
Thing is,PvE players dont want Campaigns. They are in it for the play,such as quests,which you want gone,and crafting food which sometimes takes meat,which you also would like gone.
Cyrodiil was never supposed to be all for PvP,or they wouldnt have added quests for PvErs,and advertised it for both.
Also,if there are no PvErs to kill who will the PvP gankers prey on?Other PvPers?
Just wondering,...

No, you don't have it right. I said to offer different campaigns. The original ones would stay the way they are, and then there would be others that are PvP only and PvE Only. The PvE campaigns would be for "play" such as you stated: quests, crafting materials, etc. without the worries of being "ganked" which most PvE players dread. In fact they could offer a huge amount more PvE through zone bosses, public dungeons, along with group dungeons and trials offering new gear sets. You can call it a "campaign" or a "zone", such as Wrothgar, and it would make no difference. It would be a PvE "zone" called Cyrodiil.

I know Cyrodiil was intended to combine both PvP and PvE because... well because it was designed that way... duh. Just think if Edison had stopped at his first light bulb design and said that's as good as it gets. I'm saying that it doesn't serve any real purpose and may be harming the PvP experience by creating lag. And yes, PvP gankers would gank PvP players just as most PvP gankers do right now. Only unskilled PvP gankers need to gank PvE players. Just sayin...

I mean seriously, how many PvP gankers sit outside a delve in stealth and just wait for that juicy V5 to come wandering within range? Hour after hour... "come on, I know this is a popular grind spot..." Really? That would make them nothing more than an unusually intelligent and capable NPC. A PvP ganker should be ganking other PvP players who are trying to reinforce an ongoing battle to hopefully help their side win, ganking players who foolishly wander to the fringes of the area currently held by a zerg, and things of that nature. Things that actually go with PvP when taking the war into account instead of solo players looking for easy AP.

Knootewoot · January 2016

Why does a pure PvE'er feel the need to do all "PvE" content even if it is in PvP area's. It is placed there so it's part of the PvP experience. It's just some dungeons and repeatable quests.

You don't need it. There is no reward granted except a bit gold. The skyshards in PvP are not necessary as there are more then enough skillpoints ingame.

You don't hear the PvPérs cry about the skyshards in craglorn in PvE dungeons? I don't like PvE and certainly not Craglorn because for most of it I need a group. They don't remove the mobs just for me.

If one is a completionist (I want all achievemens and all quests done and all skyshards waaah) then he has to experience the PvP to get it. It is part of the game.

So many posts about this same topic. For those few repeatable non rewarding quests in Cyrodill and a few dungeons. 90% is already PvE only so stick to that, or are PvE'ers that bored of the game the seek new content.

Knootewoot · January 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

It's nearly impossible to level your skill lines in PVP (it's too slow), so grinding is necessary, but I also love the fact I could run into a fight while I'm doing quests. It really keeps things interesting for me as a PVPer.
At the moment, Cyrodiil offers that, and people keep trying to take that away, hence my aggression.

How is it near imposible? All you have to do is equip the skill and PvP and turn in quests with skill on active bar. Just like other skill lines,

Took me less then 6 months to level all skills. And not by grinding, but by having fun PvP'ing.

MarrazzMist · January 2016

I want to get my Tamriel Hero title for my main, so I've been doing quests in Cyrodiil lately. I'm pretty nervous and bad at pvp, but at the same time I appreciate the special athmosphere Cyroddiil has. I do pick quiet campaing and haven't met much trouble. Few deaths but also rewarding moments when met with other players.

Quests in Cyrodiil are so plain and simple, they would be quite boring without the tension of other players around. Thus I like it as it is. Maybe I change my mind after starting the delves more and dye zillion times for gangers, but haven't met them yet.

Salmonleap · January 2016

Don't care. Lag is the problem. FIx the PvP lag, by any means necessary. If that means removing all PvE elements from Cyrodiil, which I doubt, fine. Do it. If it means adding 10x the hardware, automatically culling all flashy animations, lowering the campaign population, or running PvP with a completely separate combat ruleset, fine. Do it. If it means siphoning off the bulk of the PvP population to pointless battlegrounds and arenas, fine do it. Cyrodiil PvP is, was, the only PvP I've enjoyed since DAOC. Right now it's too broken to endure.

Detector · January 2016

joshcrum wrote: »

To begin with I see no reason why there should be PvE in Cyrodiil as it has done nothing but create annoyance, controversy, and lag in my opinion.

TESO CONTENT = 90% PVE + 10% PVP

So... PvE-players have MORE content. Than...

Step 1. PvP-versions of PvE-locations
Step 2. PvE-versions of PvP-locations

But (last news) pvp element of justice system is RIP... Why PvE Players should be get 100% content in game if PvP-players have only 10%? NO.

NeillMcAttack · January 2016

There are so many things wrong with this.
First off, my earliest and somewhat fondest memories of this game was running quests in Cyrodiil with a couple mates. The added tension of running into enemy players is what made it unique. A few skirmishes later I was hooked. Had so much fun another time trying to solo complete quests in Bruma, tons of sneaking and quick kills along with a 5 minute long battle against a DK inside one of the buildings, which I ended up losing, are some amazing memories.

Second, the PvE in Cyrodiil is terrible. A few, un-scaled dolmens and run here and there quests. Craglorn, wrothgar and future zones are better grind zones for all levels. Plus, a game like this should never cater to mindless grinding.
And lastly, the lag in Azuras would not even be reduced a fraction by making the zone a Barron husk. Yes, they removed deer to try and alleviate it somewhat, but it did absolutely nothing.

What about immersion and lore? Because the current iteration of Cyrodiil is very immersive. To remove one from the other (and lol at people thinking they would clear campaigns for PvE only) completely destroys any immersion, or unique feel the zone has.

I am neither a PvE'er or PvP'er, I enjoy all aspects of the game. **** me right!?

Stranglehands · January 2016

I like doing quests in the pvp zone. I like the tension of knowing that you could run into an enemy player when you (or they) least expect it, and it has provided some of the best 1v1 fights I've had in the game. The same goes for the districts in imperial city

Septimus_Magna · January 2016

Yes, it would be better for both sides (pvp and pve).

TheShadowScout · January 2016

Personally I'd hate it is they were to seperate PvE and PvP cyrodil-wise. Better to add another PvP-only region in some DLC sometime... (PvE only regions we are getting a bundle anyhow).

Because for me, I love the PvE there with a sense of danger through possible impeding gankings! And while I generally don't like PvP as much, I also sometimes enjoy it to take a break from PvEing when a big siege is brewing and ride to join some assault group or keep defenders, add a bit of archery before I get stomped, have some fun, then get back to finishing Bruma or something like that. The mix pleases me, even with my habitual PvE playstyle preference.

(and I also feel a little tired of all the discussions that go this way... be it the "give us all the PvE achievements in cyrodil without danger of PvP" or the "throw out all the PvE for less lag")

Jura23 · January 2016

Heh, wait for the towns to capturable. Then doing daily is gonna be real hardcore!

Enjoy the easy times while it lasts.

petraeus1 · January 2016

I love it the way it is. Cyrodiil is unique because of the mixture of PvE content and PvP objectives. Cyrodiil is the only zone in ESO where the plainest of quests are memorable and super exciting, because there is PvP. I love all the random encounters with enemy players when I'm deep behind enemy lines. I'm saying this as a 95% PvE-player. If you don't want to PvP, there's no reason to go to Cyrodiil. The quests aren't particularly fun or rewarding. There's achievements to be had, yeah, and skyshards too, but that's hardly enough reason to petition to change it.

Separation of the zone has lore implications. It also widens the gap between PvE and PvP players. The supposed performance improvements it could bring, seem doubtful: as said above, the performance issues are very much tied to Veteran Campaigns, where (I'd argue) a larger portion of the population is engaged in PvP activities rather than PvE activities (though this is speculation). I'm all for testing it though, however, as Brian Wheeler explained in the latest ESO Live, even for these kind of changes, there's only one ruleset, so they have to either open up a whole separate server with different rulesets to test it (which wasn't feasible, according to Brian), or test it on PTS (which isn't the ideal replicate of live servers by any means).

Mind you, there are some issues with the current PvE in PvP imo. Grinding mobs for xp is something that shouldn't exist. It's not fun and creates a lot of salt. I hope this will be gone with the removal of VR. NB are also very strong and with their built-in stealth mechanics, some of the small-scale PvP encounters I have while questing in Cyrodiil aren't very exciting at all (I just get bursted).

Imperial City has no PvP objectives, which makes it a difficult case. I love the atmosphere of IC and the content, it's very exciting, but when the only reason to fight other players is to steal their Tel Var stones, things get iffy. The traditional PvP crowd isn't interested, and you create a very gank focused population that punishes new comers heavily. I hope with district control tied to Cyrodiil proper will bring in more of the main PvP crowd and alleviate this a bit, without ruining the current skirmish experience. I also hope there will be more alternatives for V16 gear for PvE players, so those who don't want to PvP don't feel forced to go to IC.

Messy1 · January 2016

Personally, I love the combination of PvE and PvP

mlstevens42_ESO · January 2016

I mostly pve.....but I do not think that the pve content of cyrodiil imp city would keep any pve person content for long. Far to little of the pve elements for them to separate it from the pvp part of the deal. Really unless you are trying to run quests in a rather full version of the zone...(trueflame for example) you will probably be able to run quests unmolested if you choose one where your alliance is dominant. I have run around in said zone alone for hours.....and I do mean hours literally when choosing the right one. From one end of the zone to the other even.....so not like I parked myself in one little spot out of the way and was missed for that reason.

mlstevens42_ESO · January 2016

Oh would like to mention none of the pve content in cyrodiil is at all difficult everything just melts without the pvp element it would be far far far to easy.

Knootewoot · January 2016

Jura23 wrote: »

Heh, wait for the towns to capturable. Then doing daily is gonna be real hardcore! Enjoy the easy times while it lasts.

This would be awesome.

Volkodav · January 2016

joshcrum wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

joshcrum wrote: »

To begin with I see no reason why there should be PvE in Cyrodiil as it has done nothing but create annoyance, controversy, and lag in my opinion. We all know (including the devs/game gods) that there is a serious ongoing lag issue in PC Cyrodiil. It seems to me that having dolmens, delves, and a huge number of quests and mobs in Cyrodiil cannot be helping resolve the lag issues. If the deer were removed to help control lag, then think of what the rest of this extra stuff is causing. Furthermore this is all PvE content which truly has no place in PvP Cyrodiil. As far as PvP is concerned, this content is only useful to build ultimate which a small amount of scattered mobs could handle easily. There are AP bonuses from killing various delve bosses, but those could easily be gotten from completing resource capture quests, player kill quests, etc.

I believe the best option is to introduce PvE Cyrodiil campaigns while removing all PvE content from the current PvP Cyrodiil campaigns outside of scattered mobs for ultimate regeneration. It seems likely that this would help lessen the current PvP lag issues, while also helping to give a more accurate count on server population since all players counted would be there for PvP only. At the same time, Cyrodiil PvE content could be expanded for the new PvE campaigns. All new Cyrodiil PvE group dungeons, trials, arenas, bosses, etc. including large group keep raids involving a large number of npc's on both sides. If nothing more, it would add more campaigns to Cyrodiil which would better diversify the campaign options players currently have while satisfying the needs of the extreme PvE-only and PvP-only players.

What are your thoughts on this?

Ok,ok.You want to remove any PvE quests,animals,dolmens,and such so that there will be no lag for,..PvPers? Have I got it right?
Thing is,PvE players dont want Campaigns. They are in it for the play,such as quests,which you want gone,and crafting food which sometimes takes meat,which you also would like gone.
Cyrodiil was never supposed to be all for PvP,or they wouldnt have added quests for PvErs,and advertised it for both.
Also,if there are no PvErs to kill who will the PvP gankers prey on?Other PvPers?
Just wondering,...

No, you don't have it right. I said to offer different campaigns. The original ones would stay the way they are, and then there would be others that are PvP only and PvE Only. The PvE campaigns would be for "play" such as you stated: quests, crafting materials, etc. without the worries of being "ganked" which most PvE players dread. In fact they could offer a huge amount more PvE through zone bosses, public dungeons, along with group dungeons and trials offering new gear sets. You can call it a "campaign" or a "zone", such as Wrothgar, and it would make no difference. It would be a PvE "zone" called Cyrodiil.

I know Cyrodiil was intended to combine both PvP and PvE because... well because it was designed that way... duh. Just think if Edison had stopped at his first light bulb design and said that's as good as it gets. I'm saying that it doesn't serve any real purpose and may be harming the PvP experience by creating lag. And yes, PvP gankers would gank PvP players just as most PvP gankers do right now. Only unskilled PvP gankers need to gank PvE players. Just sayin...

I mean seriously, how many PvP gankers sit outside a delve in stealth and just wait for that juicy V5 to come wandering within range? Hour after hour... "come on, I know this is a popular grind spot..." Really? That would make them nothing more than an unusually intelligent and capable NPC. A PvP ganker should be ganking other PvP players who are trying to reinforce an ongoing battle to hopefully help their side win, ganking players who foolishly wander to the fringes of the area currently held by a zerg, and things of that nature. Things that actually go with PvP when taking the war into account instead of solo players looking for easy AP.

Well,I may not have it right,but others here agree that it shouldnt change from, the way it is. Solo players should be allowed to play as much as groups.It's their right,just as much as it is for the PvPers.
(oh.and lots of PvP gankers wait outside delves ready to pounce.Common knowledge. Everyone knows it,as you do,though you wont admit it.

JD2013 · January 2016

No. Because without PVP, Cyrodiil would be all but empty. The PVE in Cyrodiil is a token amount really.

And I would rather them not go back over old content and build a new PVE only Cyrodiil for a few that want it. I would rather they focus on bringing new things and fixes as opposed to rebuilding old content.

There's been discussion on this already.

AlnilamE · January 2016

I've completed the Cyrodiil PvE achievements on 3 characters so far (except for the fishing one, which I've only done on one) and i love the mix of PvE and PvP.

I'm still not very good at PvP, though I've been working on that recently, and I'm curious to see how that's going to affect me taking my 4th toon there soon.

I agree with others that it would be incredibly boring without the risk of PvP. I like it the way it is.

I'm quite sure that removing the PvE elements would do nothing to help with lag.