KozawahGaming wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

I think the answer is in resource management. Light armor obviously has increased magicka regen and decreased magicka cost. The same applies to medium armor only with stamina. Each has a unique aspect such as stealth/speed benefit from medium and spell pen/resistance for light.

I propose that heavy armor focus on ultimate regeneration and decreased ultimate cost. Abandon some of the negligible health and stam/magic passives and retool/balance for ultimate. Keep mitigation and block cost reduction.

This would allow heavy armor users the ability to focus on survival while still having burst damage/utility at key points in pve and pvp fights, in the form of more frequent ultimates from absorbing so much damage.

The concept is key which is why I won't attempt to come up with any numbers right now that could derail the central idea with cries of over/underpowered.

Why should Heavy focus on Ultimates? Light armor gets a lot of magicka resource regen, Medium gets a lot of Stamina regen. Having heavy armor focus on Ultimates would make it even more useless.

Sharee wrote: »

How about a stacking damage resistance on being hit. X% DR lasting for Y seconds after being hit, if you get hit again during that time add X% more DR, up to a certain cap. The more often you get hit, the more resistant to damage you become. Just an idea to throw into the brainstorming session.

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

I think the answer is in resource management. Light armor obviously has increased magicka regen and decreased magicka cost. The same applies to medium armor only with stamina. Each has a unique aspect such as stealth/speed benefit from medium and spell pen/resistance for light.

I propose that heavy armor focus on ultimate regeneration and decreased ultimate cost. Abandon some of the negligible health and stam/magic passives and retool/balance for ultimate. Keep mitigation and block cost reduction.

This would allow heavy armor users the ability to focus on survival while still having burst damage/utility at key points in pve and pvp fights, in the form of more frequent ultimates from absorbing so much damage.

The concept is key which is why I won't attempt to come up with any numbers right now that could derail the central idea with cries of over/underpowered.

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

I think a lot of people are blurring issues about damage mitigation and outgoing damage for heavy armor users.

If you actually put your set bonuses, champion points, attributes, and equipped skills towards mitigating damage you can actually become incredibly tanky.

The problem is that you will do very little damage and those that try to straddle both damage mitigation and outgoing damage will find themselves mostly useless in both areas.

What this means is that most people don't realize they really are asking for more damage if they go all in on mitigation or they are asking for more mitigation if they focus more on damage. You really can't have both.

This is why I propose ultimate management passives since it is not linked towards stam/magic resources which are covered by other armor sources. It also allows those that focus all available tools on mitigation to be incredibly tanky and still have something to contribute in fights by absorbing incredible amounts of damage and still putting out more frequent bursts of damage/utility from their ultimates.

This promotes the idea that a heavy armor user should aim to survive as long as possible to keep throwing out ults which in turn makes them actually threatening to enemies as they now have a more meaningful impact.

@cwp303b14_ESO Thing is a player shouldn't have to grind out 400+ CP just to make HA how it is supposed to be now.

How it is now a player can put on a set of LA or MA and take full advantage of it's effects with out even spending a single CP yet with HA how you are putting it you need to have CP to make it good and take full advantage of what HA offers. How is that fair to new tanks or players who want to be tanks? All these talks about HA changes are not factoring CP because it should function right with out the use of a single CP just like LA or MA.

So if HA act right when you have enough CP into they how does LA and MA act when you add CP to them ?? What it is right now over power-armor that can either create damage shields up to 20K or roll dodge infinitely. HA doesn't have the option to create those damage shields or roll dodge forever it has it take the damage and with weapon/spell damage having no cap and penetration effects and all that hopefully you can see why HA is lack luster in PvP right now.

A couple of issues here.

1. Champion points have to be accounted for in one of two ways in order to isolate the problem:
-champion points are available (501) for heavy armor users to increase their mitigation as well as for medium and light armor users to increase their damage so all available points must be applied and analyzed to find true effectiveness for damage or mitigation oriented builds.
-no champion points are considered in the discussion which means no additional damage or mitigation for damage or mitigation oriented builds.
I am choosing the first option because it is the current state of the game. The point you make could also be applied to newer damage oriented builds fighting a mitigation build with max champion points in mitigation.

2. You have to actually consider the implications of more frequent ultimates on builds that lack the raw stats to drastically increase damage. This means that the ultimates for these builds would be used as decent damage attacks, not high damage since if they put champion points towards damage they sacrifice mitigation, or as more utility during a fight. For each class this indirectly helps resources since each class has access to ultimates that increase survival allowing for longer time to regen resources or to directly return resources such as dk and sorc. This buffs the resource game and survival simultaneously for all classes without utilizing aspects of other armor types.

Again, I have not included any proposed numbers because I want to stress the concept before any discussion of the appropriate and balanced implementation.

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

I think a lot of people are blurring issues about damage mitigation and outgoing damage for heavy armor users.

If you actually put your set bonuses, champion points, attributes, and equipped skills towards mitigating damage you can actually become incredibly tanky.

The problem is that you will do very little damage and those that try to straddle both damage mitigation and outgoing damage will find themselves mostly useless in both areas.

What this means is that most people don't realize they really are asking for more damage if they go all in on mitigation or they are asking for more mitigation if they focus more on damage. You really can't have both.

This is why I propose ultimate management passives since it is not linked towards stam/magic resources which are covered by other armor sources. It also allows those that focus all available tools on mitigation to be incredibly tanky and still have something to contribute in fights by absorbing incredible amounts of damage and still putting out more frequent bursts of damage/utility from their ultimates.

This promotes the idea that a heavy armor user should aim to survive as long as possible to keep throwing out ults which in turn makes them actually threatening to enemies as they now have a more meaningful impact.

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

What I find curious is that a health regen focus has much lower damage, but a high damage build gets bonuses to not only damage but also gets buffed heals.

If players run a heavy armor health regen build with low damage then they should be able to sustain through damage focus builds better.

Also, another way of making heavy armor more viable might include giving it an impenetrable bonus which can match people who have cranked up crit damage bonuses (eg nightblades, cp crit damage bonus), as crit can supposedly max out at 1.95% multiplier while impen and cp combined can only reach a 0.5% multiplier reduction.

Increasing ulti sustain would be nice, but I would not sacrifice regen and healing benefits. Heavy armor, health regen, and the role of PvP tanking needs to be generally enhanced. I generally also think that removing armor and spell penetration would make the defensive bonuses of heavy and medium armor more meaningful.

The idea of reducing skill cost and damage at lower health is also a really good idea.

The problem with a focus on health regen is that by its very nature, which is long term sustain, it could never reach a level to counter burst.

The point I see from a few posts about a crit reduction passive, either crit damage or chance, is problematic since crits are not a factor in pve. That means that any trade of passives in that direction would be a net loss for heavy armor in pve. I know this is a pvp thread but you have to consider balance across pve and pvp if there is to be any meaningful change.

Also, there are currently champion points to counter crit as well as the impenetrable armor trait. It seems redundant to offer crit reduction passives on heavy armor when there exists multiple avenues to reduce crits already.

Cinbri wrote: »

Make Immovable Brute to increase damage, so stamina users will slot it and everyone else won't need to waste slot bar for this skill.

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

What I find curious is that a health regen focus has much lower damage, but a high damage build gets bonuses to not only damage but also gets buffed heals.

If players run a heavy armor health regen build with low damage then they should be able to sustain through damage focus builds better.

Also, another way of making heavy armor more viable might include giving it an impenetrable bonus which can match people who have cranked up crit damage bonuses (eg nightblades, cp crit damage bonus), as crit can supposedly max out at 1.95% multiplier while impen and cp combined can only reach a 0.5% multiplier reduction.

Increasing ulti sustain would be nice, but I would not sacrifice regen and healing benefits. Heavy armor, health regen, and the role of PvP tanking needs to be generally enhanced. I generally also think that removing armor and spell penetration would make the defensive bonuses of heavy and medium armor more meaningful.

The idea of reducing skill cost and damage at lower health is also a really good idea.

The problem with a focus on health regen is that by its very nature, which is long term sustain, it could never reach a level to counter burst.

The point I see from a few posts about a crit reduction passive, either crit damage or chance, is problematic since crits are not a factor in pve. That means that any trade of passives in that direction would be a net loss for heavy armor in pve. I know this is a pvp thread but you have to consider balance across pve and pvp if there is to be any meaningful change.

Also, there are currently champion points to counter crit as well as the impenetrable armor trait. It seems redundant to offer crit reduction passives on heavy armor when there exists multiple avenues to reduce crits already.

there are also many ways to boost crit Chance, and yet la and ma have both a Bonus on that.
same goes with the dmg boost for ma, there are many other ways to do so.

Let's take this through to its logical conclusion.

Heavy armor gets crit reduction which at best frees up some armor traits and a few champion points
Heavy armor has marginal gains in stats from having the ability to use divines or infused while retaining crit reduction.
Light and medium armor users trait either impenetrable to reach or surpass crit reduction of heavy armor, if they intend to engage in combat by standing their ground, or continue to use traits that contribute to damage since they rely on mobility, shields, roll dodge to mitigate damage.
End result: heavy armor effectively gains a few hundred stats from not having to trait impenetrable but gains no sustain to resources and gives up some of its current passives to achieve this.
I would call that a net loss

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

What I find curious is that a health regen focus has much lower damage, but a high damage build gets bonuses to not only damage but also gets buffed heals.

If players run a heavy armor health regen build with low damage then they should be able to sustain through damage focus builds better.

Also, another way of making heavy armor more viable might include giving it an impenetrable bonus which can match people who have cranked up crit damage bonuses (eg nightblades, cp crit damage bonus), as crit can supposedly max out at 1.95% multiplier while impen and cp combined can only reach a 0.5% multiplier reduction.

Increasing ulti sustain would be nice, but I would not sacrifice regen and healing benefits. Heavy armor, health regen, and the role of PvP tanking needs to be generally enhanced. I generally also think that removing armor and spell penetration would make the defensive bonuses of heavy and medium armor more meaningful.

The idea of reducing skill cost and damage at lower health is also a really good idea.

The problem with a focus on health regen is that by its very nature, which is long term sustain, it could never reach a level to counter burst.

The point I see from a few posts about a crit reduction passive, either crit damage or chance, is problematic since crits are not a factor in pve. That means that any trade of passives in that direction would be a net loss for heavy armor in pve. I know this is a pvp thread but you have to consider balance across pve and pvp if there is to be any meaningful change.

Also, there are currently champion points to counter crit as well as the impenetrable armor trait. It seems redundant to offer crit reduction passives on heavy armor when there exists multiple avenues to reduce crits already.

there are also many ways to boost crit Chance, and yet la and ma have both a Bonus on that.
same goes with the dmg boost for ma, there are many other ways to do so.

Let's take this through to its logical conclusion.

Heavy armor gets crit reduction which at best frees up some armor traits and a few champion points
Heavy armor has marginal gains in stats from having the ability to use divines or infused while retaining crit reduction.
Light and medium armor users trait either impenetrable to reach or surpass crit reduction of heavy armor, if they intend to engage in combat by standing their ground, or continue to use traits that contribute to damage since they rely on mobility, shields, roll dodge to mitigate damage.
End result: heavy armor effectively gains a few hundred stats from not having to trait impenetrable but gains no sustain to resources and gives up some of its current passives to achieve this.
I would call that a net loss

why is anyone talking about a trade for a stat? HA is so bad right now we Need to ADD a passive not trade somthing out.

with the increest crit reduction i have to heal less, block less, dogeroll less, since the passive will mitigate enought dmg.
Lets say the passive is 10/15/20% less crit dmg, if a SA will hit me for 6000, it will hit after with 4800, in a Long fight you will notice this.

May I ask what your heavy armor traits and champion points are currently?

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

What I find curious is that a health regen focus has much lower damage, but a high damage build gets bonuses to not only damage but also gets buffed heals.

If players run a heavy armor health regen build with low damage then they should be able to sustain through damage focus builds better.

Also, another way of making heavy armor more viable might include giving it an impenetrable bonus which can match people who have cranked up crit damage bonuses (eg nightblades, cp crit damage bonus), as crit can supposedly max out at 1.95% multiplier while impen and cp combined can only reach a 0.5% multiplier reduction.

Increasing ulti sustain would be nice, but I would not sacrifice regen and healing benefits. Heavy armor, health regen, and the role of PvP tanking needs to be generally enhanced. I generally also think that removing armor and spell penetration would make the defensive bonuses of heavy and medium armor more meaningful.

The idea of reducing skill cost and damage at lower health is also a really good idea.

The problem with a focus on health regen is that by its very nature, which is long term sustain, it could never reach a level to counter burst.

The point I see from a few posts about a crit reduction passive, either crit damage or chance, is problematic since crits are not a factor in pve. That means that any trade of passives in that direction would be a net loss for heavy armor in pve. I know this is a pvp thread but you have to consider balance across pve and pvp if there is to be any meaningful change.

Also, there are currently champion points to counter crit as well as the impenetrable armor trait. It seems redundant to offer crit reduction passives on heavy armor when there exists multiple avenues to reduce crits already.

there are also many ways to boost crit Chance, and yet la and ma have both a Bonus on that.
same goes with the dmg boost for ma, there are many other ways to do so.

Let's take this through to its logical conclusion.

Heavy armor gets crit reduction which at best frees up some armor traits and a few champion points
Heavy armor has marginal gains in stats from having the ability to use divines or infused while retaining crit reduction.
Light and medium armor users trait either impenetrable to reach or surpass crit reduction of heavy armor, if they intend to engage in combat by standing their ground, or continue to use traits that contribute to damage since they rely on mobility, shields, roll dodge to mitigate damage.
End result: heavy armor effectively gains a few hundred stats from not having to trait impenetrable but gains no sustain to resources and gives up some of its current passives to achieve this.
I would call that a net loss

why is anyone talking about a trade for a stat? HA is so bad right now we Need to ADD a passive not trade somthing out.

with the increest crit reduction i have to heal less, block less, dogeroll less, since the passive will mitigate enought dmg.
Lets say the passive is 10/15/20% less crit dmg, if a SA will hit me for 6000, it will hit after with 4800, in a Long fight you will notice this.

May I ask what your heavy armor traits and champion points are currently?

i have so many builds on ha, usally when im puging i run kag with 2 reinforced and 3 impen, bloodspawn with 1 impen and divines / or was it well fitted, cant remember right. duo shild board with reinforced/shildmaster and nirnhorned.

450 cps or somewath there, 50 into impen.

So you are saying that your biggest pitfall in pvp is the severity of crits and you have not taken the maximum available steps to alleviate this problem?