What are YOUR ideas to make Heavy Armor more viable in PvP?

Vynist · January 2016

Simple question:

If you were in charge, what changes would you make (if any) to Heavy Armor to make it more effective in PvP?

I ask this question in regards to solo PvP and being able to 1vX effectively (without making it OP).

Post away! No idea is too crazy.

Undoctrinated · January 2016

making it more tanky would be a good start, or maybe some crit resistance passives are in order. its just imo, the dmg mitigation difference between medium and heavy isn't significant enough to compensate for the fact that you'll also have to give up both weapon damage and stamina recovery w/ switching to heavy. my 2 cents...

Vynist · January 2016

Undoctrinated wrote: »

making it more tanky would be a good start, or maybe some crit resistance passives are in order. its just imo, the dmg mitigation difference between medium and heavy isn't significant enough to compensate for the fact that you'll also have to give up both weapon damage and stamina recovery w/ switching to heavy. my 2 cents...

I agree!

Interesting point you brought up about crit resistance.

Think about this:

When people shield stack, they effectively have 100% crit resistance while they have their shields up.

How in the world have we let this happen for so long?

Shield stackers should be glass cannons, yet they are tankier than tanks because shields grant crit-hit-immunity.

Thoughts?

Draxys · January 2016

Give us back stamina regen while blocking, but it's a 5pc of heavy armor passive, and not full regen.

Vynist · January 2016

Draxys wrote: »

Give us back stamina regen while blocking, but it's a 5pc of heavy armor passive, and not full regen.

I think that is a great idea honestly.

People may complain about block casting again, but seriously... Why complain about that when sorcs and NBs are dropping people like flies?

There are much bigger issues here than block casting, and I think the stam regen idea for a 5 heavy passive is great.

Emma_Overload · January 2016

I think many of the existing Heavy Armor passives are pretty good, actually, BUT...

They're not strong enough! Constitution, for example, needs to be an order of magnitude (10X) stronger. If it's not strong enough to feel it when it procs, it's not strong enough!

Vynist · January 2016

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I think many of the existing Heavy Armor passives are pretty good, actually, BUT...

They're not strong enough! Constitution, for example, needs to be an order of magnitude (10X) stronger. If it's not strong enough to feel it when it procs, it's not strong enough!

Excellent point. Many other people I have talked to feel the same way about heavy armor passives. They simply don't do enough to make it worth wearing.

Angus · January 2016

Draxys wrote: »

Give us back stamina regen while blocking, but it's a 5pc of heavy armor passive, and not full regen.

While I agree with this for a quick fix, doesn't it feel odd that heavy armor helps block? Get all suited up in heavy armor to soak up hits, then block the dangerous part of the hits anyway... I'd rather see blocking used by light and medium armor wearers (who actually need to block occasionally).

Heavy armor could be pretty fun if:
- Makes you more immune to stuns and ccs (simple to implement, either increase cc immunity time or reduce dmg taken while stunned),
- Which then makes it easier to land heavy attacks, providing an active and engaging way to regen. Consitution is boring.
- Needs to be more protective than it currently is. Make it double of what medium armor is, for example.

Warraxx · January 2016

bring back the buff to melee dmg that heavy had before too...

Vynist · January 2016

Angus wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Give us back stamina regen while blocking, but it's a 5pc of heavy armor passive, and not full regen.

While I agree with this for a quick fix, doesn't it feel odd that heavy armor helps block? Get all suited up in heavy armor to soak up hits, then block the dangerous part of the hits anyway... I'd rather see blocking used by light and medium armor wearers (who actually need to block occasionally).

Heavy armor could be pretty fun if:
- Makes you more immune to stuns and ccs (simple to implement, either increase cc immunity time or reduce dmg taken while stunned),
- Which then makes it easier to land heavy attacks, providing an active and engaging way to regen. Consitution is boring.
- Needs to be more protective than it currently is. Make it double of what medium armor is, for example.

All great ideas!

Considering the CC immunity, seems pretty cool. Right now, only heavy armor users that are stam have enough stam to use immovable, which leaves out the heavy armor users that are magicka. Something to consider.

Vynist · January 2016

Warraxx wrote: »

bring back the buff to melee dmg that heavy had before too...

I am not aware what that buff is, would you elaborate?

Ishammael · January 2016

The passives are actually pretty good... they just need to have larger numbers. More hp, more armor, more resource return from constitution, etc.

Glory · January 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

The passives are actually pretty good... they just need to have larger numbers. More hp, more armor, more resource return from constitution, etc.

I think buffing the passives is a good idea. Alongside changing the way penetration works in this game (it's a joke), I think heavy would be in a much better place.

dodgehopper_ESO · January 2016

Draxys wrote: »

Give us back stamina regen while blocking, but it's a 5pc of heavy armor passive, and not full regen.

Even this would not be enough honestly, although it should be done.

dodgehopper_ESO · January 2016

For heavy armor I suggest:
1) A passive which counters penetration.
2) A passive which increases crit resistance
3) A passive which reduces the efficacy of CC.
4) Higher allowable resistances than Medium and Light.

For Sword and Shield I Suggest:
1) Give us back Regeneration while blocking. (Shield Wearers only).
2) Allow us to keep our shields raised while feared. In its current state not only do you drain stamina on the block but also
the break free, while gaining no stamina regeneration.

Ultimately I just want to say: Tanks deserve a place at the pvp table. Some games they exist, and some games they do not. I think the problem is that the designers and players confused the difference for a while with all of the vampire-bat-dk-dunmers that were running around Cyrodiil (as well as some of the rarer but equally annoying BatSorcs). While these obviously OP combos from that early phase of the game often carried a shield, I wouldn't have considered them a tank at all considering their 100% bathrobe and magical casting build. They were magic dps (best type of dps in that era) wearing a shield just so they could survive everything.

I'm fine with heavy armor users having to be a lot more tactical in their wielding of buttons 1-5 if and only if they can mitigate reasonably without being able to use those abilities often enough. I've stated it before in other threads but the problem in pvp is that it is so much easier to shell out tons of damage and use the same points and powers that you're using to do damage to also protect yourself and better than you would in heavy.

Sallington · January 2016

Both light and medium armor have bonuses to crit% and resource regen.

Heavy armor needs something similar, or something on the same level.
- x% less damage from crits (only useful in PvP but whatever)
- x health regen (some substantial amount)
- x% less damage when below 50% HP
- skill cost x% less when below 30% HP

something along those lines

Vynist · January 2016

I can't reply to everything but seriously all awesome ideas! Thanks for the input, I really hope ZOS takes a look and like what they see.

booksmcread · January 2016

I agree with all the people that posted about increasing the current passives. They are just too minimal right now to make a difference. Most fights in the game right now are about burst damage. Heavy armor should be the counter to that.

The only thing I would add to the passives, is a reduced incoming crit chance to the 5-piece bonus (like how impen used to work).

timidobserver · January 2016

1. 5 pieces of heavy reduces the effectiveness of armor/spell penetration on the wearer by a significant amount. 7 piece heavy makes wearer immune to penetration.
2. 5 piece heavy returns significant % of damage to ranged and melee attackers. Returned damage scales up based on how many enemies are near like blazing shield.
3.(beta idea) 5 piece heavy has damage reduction that scales up the lower your offensive stats are.

Niaver · January 2016

Something needs to be done for sure.
I use heavy armor while playing DK. Mages with shield stacking and NBs with their mobility are in result tankier then me and they have a lot more dmg.

Joy_Division · January 2016

I also do not think the set bonus skills associated with "tanks" and heavy armor to be very good.

Wreuntzylla · January 2016

You realize that ZoS has been going out of its way to make sure players can't effectively 1vX, yes? If the read the OP, they probably won't go any farther.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Give us back stamina regen while blocking, but it's a 5pc of heavy armor passive, and not full regen.

Even this would not be enough honestly, although it should be done.

What?!?! If I could regen stamina while blocking, I would spam emote 3-5 DPS NBs as they spam suprise attack before killing them one by one.... As it stands now, I can tank 15-20 puggers for about 30sec on my *magicka* templar.

timidobserver wrote: »

1. 5 pieces of heavy reduces the effectiveness of armor/spell penetration on the wearer by a significant amount. 7 piece heavy makes wearer immune to penetration.
2. 5 piece heavy returns significant % of damage to ranged and melee attackers. Returned damage scales up based on how many enemies are near like blazing shield.
3.(beta idea) 5 piece heavy has damage reduction that scales up the lower your offensive stats are.

At least someone has proposed somewhat reasonable individual changes.

I'm curious, though. For bullet 2., you are excluding what, AoE except for things like templar sweeps/jabs?

Tankqull · January 2016

for every piece above 5 - increase the dmg reduction cap by additional 10% = 60%(at6 pieces) & 70% (at 7 pieces)

dodgehopper_ESO · January 2016

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

You realize that ZoS has been going out of its way to make sure players can't effectively 1vX, yes? If the read the OP, they probably won't go any farther.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Give us back stamina regen while blocking, but it's a 5pc of heavy armor passive, and not full regen.

Even this would not be enough honestly, although it should be done.

What?!?! If I could regen stamina while blocking, I would spam emote 3-5 DPS NBs as they spam suprise attack before killing them one by one.... As it stands now, I can tank 15-20 puggers for about 30sec on my *magicka* templar.

timidobserver wrote: »

1. 5 pieces of heavy reduces the effectiveness of armor/spell penetration on the wearer by a significant amount. 7 piece heavy makes wearer immune to penetration.
2. 5 piece heavy returns significant % of damage to ranged and melee attackers. Returned damage scales up based on how many enemies are near like blazing shield.
3.(beta idea) 5 piece heavy has damage reduction that scales up the lower your offensive stats are.

At least someone has proposed somewhat reasonable individual changes.

I'm curious, though. For bullet 2., you are excluding what, AoE except for things like templar sweeps/jabs?

What in the hell are you talking about? No other skill causes your regeneration to stop cold turkey. Heavy Armor doesn't return your regeneration like Light or Medium Armor. I realize that ZoS line of thinking was that they can scale up the cost of abilities like bolt escape upon each use within a short period. The problem with that is a tank build is reliant upon its sustainability to be worth using. A Tank build is not about unleashing large burst of damage, but wearing opponents down, debuffing, and creating a nuisance. I'm not suggesting an 'I Win' button but the removal of Regeneration while blocking was a stupid change and there were far more elegant solutions to the problem. There is no reason that Bubble tanking should be vastly superior to Shield tanking. If ZoS wants to stop magic regeneration every time someone uses a Bubble that might be fair, but it would be a stupid design change in my opinion. Stamina leaning tanks also take a hit in the current scenario for obvious reasons I'm not going to describe here. If the problem is with Stamina Regeneration (or Magicka regen) being too high due to set bonuses and constellations, then perhaps it is a systemic problem and not a problem with blocking itself.

I want to see the video where you personally took on 20 players all at once by yourself. I have a very hard time believing in its credibility unless you were doing things like circling columns and popping invisibility/immovable potions. If those are the tactics you used then you can obviously stretch your numbers a bit to make yourself look good/feel good. There are obviously some tactics that increase your duration if you're built to be tanky but right now I'm just not buying your argument. I'd also like to add the magic-based templar tanky build is a lot better than the stamina one (See my point above). Note I'm not saying you're a bad pvp-er or anything like that I just think your assumptions are wrong. My personal view is that the game just needs better capping of stats.

Forestd16b14_ESO · January 2016

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/225175/heavy-armor-needs-buffed-already/p1

Way ahead of you.

Me add a passive that adds a resistance to physical and magical penetration effect by 40 or 50%. Add a crit resistance passive to HA just like MA have. Don't know why MA even has a crit res in the first place. Add a reduce snare effect to HA passives and put reduce break free cost back into HA passives. Change Immovable to last 20 seconds and full CC and snare immunity and brute changed to give minor brute to increases weapon damage by 10% and keep unstoppable the same to increase duration from 20 seconds to 30 but you have to be wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor to use the skill. Change to give more health and reduce cost of block even more.

Just some of my thoughts.

umagon · January 2016

To me heavy armor seemed to be intended to have better health recovery options were light has magicka and medium has stamina. Also there are some issues with how heavy armor is countered. Things like mace's heavy armor ignoring percent based values are part of the problem and similar things with the champion points. From someone who uses heavy armor a lot here are my suggestions:

-Any passive, champion point, ability that ignores armor values based on percentage be reevaluated to use static numbers.

-Resolve 3/3= bonus increased to 5040

-Constitution 2/2= remove the restore magicka and stamina each time you are hit and replace it with X% damage done is returned as health to the wearer; limited to three targets.

-Juggernaut 2/2= Max health increased by 2% per piece heavy armor equipped.

-Bracing 2/2= Decrease stamina cost of blocking by 30%

-Rapid Mending 2/2= Increases healing received by 1% per piece of heavy armor equipped and increases the health healing effectiveness from constitution by X% with five or more pieces of heavy armor equipped.

Teargrants · January 2016

Off the top of my head...

Heavy Armor Passives:

Constitution is nearly completely useless. Health regen is highly negligible as a stat because of the strength and ubiquity of heals. The magicka & stamina return is only 346 in 7/7 Heavy, once every 4 seconds. That’s the equivalent of 173 regen, which is very weak compared to light & med armor cost reduction + regen. I would suggest dramatically increasing the amount restored, lowering the cooldown to every 1 second, or both.

Bracing is nice, but less useful with the block nerf.

Juggernaut & Rapid Mending are also both just ‘nice’, but they do not cut it compared to the types of bonuses Light & Medium Armor get. Maybe if 7/7 heavy gave me 2k health regen, but as it is health regen is the most negligible stay in the game due to the ubiquity of burst healing and burst dmg. The max health bonus would also need to be several times greater to be significant.

One change I would suggest would be to replace one of the passives for, or add a passive for % stam regen while blocking, perhaps up to at least 50% @ 7/7 Heavy equipped.

caeliusstarbreaker · January 2016

Make every piece of heavy increase health 3% per need 5 pieces on for it to work

Soris · January 2016

Easy. Better constitution and old juggernaut passives, old immovable, more armor/resist at least 2 times of medium armor and old block mechanism. And give it more health per piece weared.

cwp303b14_ESO · January 2016

I think the answer is in resource management. Light armor obviously has increased magicka regen and decreased magicka cost. The same applies to medium armor only with stamina. Each has a unique aspect such as stealth/speed benefit from medium and spell pen/resistance for light.

I propose that heavy armor focus on ultimate regeneration and decreased ultimate cost. Abandon some of the negligible health and stam/magic passives and retool/balance for ultimate. Keep mitigation and block cost reduction.

This would allow heavy armor users the ability to focus on survival while still having burst damage/utility at key points in pve and pvp fights, in the form of more frequent ultimates from absorbing so much damage.

The concept is key which is why I won't attempt to come up with any numbers right now that could derail the central idea with cries of over/underpowered.

KozawahGaming · January 2016

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

I think the answer is in resource management. Light armor obviously has increased magicka regen and decreased magicka cost. The same applies to medium armor only with stamina. Each has a unique aspect such as stealth/speed benefit from medium and spell pen/resistance for light.

I propose that heavy armor focus on ultimate regeneration and decreased ultimate cost. Abandon some of the negligible health and stam/magic passives and retool/balance for ultimate. Keep mitigation and block cost reduction.

This would allow heavy armor users the ability to focus on survival while still having burst damage/utility at key points in pve and pvp fights, in the form of more frequent ultimates from absorbing so much damage.

The concept is key which is why I won't attempt to come up with any numbers right now that could derail the central idea with cries of over/underpowered.

Why should Heavy focus on Ultimates? Light armor gets a lot of magicka resource regen, Medium gets a lot of Stamina regen. Having heavy armor focus on Ultimates would make it even more useless.