AoE caps are currently crutches for baddies.

Poxheart · January 2016

Satiar wrote: »

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You guys say this until a group of organized proxy/bat group wipe out entire Zerg of 40 with just 10 people lol hell I can just imagine hitting someone with ice comet as emp with no caps , I already one shotted people with it

If a smaller group outplays a larger group, they SHOULD kill the larger one. The AoE caps don't protect good players. We're not asking to penalize large groups, we're asking to not have things in the game that FAVOR a zerg beyond the superiority of number that they already have. The 40 already have a massive advantage if they aren't a bag of potatoes against 10. They don't need AoE caps to protect them on top of it. Even if all it did was cause groups to spread out so they don't get bombed it'd be helpful.

I'm also against protecting zergs this way. On the other hand, I would prefer if they find some solution that will not promote using of AoE at all.

Only AoE in PvP should be siege.

Certainly PvP would be better like that than it is now.

I also think that no one would be that bothered if they took away all AoE except siege. Imagine the size fights you could have without those trillions of AoE calculations (large scale fighting could be a real thing !!!) it would require more tactics and much better planning other than just running over the top of other players.

Considering I can siege a keep and get 600+ ping simply by having enemy raids stealthed for a bomb, with no AOE going off, i doubt it.

Well that wont be the stealthed bomb group causing the 600 ping. Surely ?

I can tell how many people are in a keep just by ping. No fights, no aoe, just some healing and stuff going on. Sheer players in an area causes massive lag. You can almost always tell if a keep is empty or not by if your ping skyrockets when you get near/inside it.

It's funny how you say this with such conviction, yet there are large fights all the time in Blackwater Blade that aren't laggy.

Erondil · January 2016

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You guys say this until a group of organized proxy/bat group wipe out entire Zerg of 40 with just 10 people lol hell I can just imagine hitting someone with ice comet as emp with no caps , I already one shotted people with it

If a smaller group outplays a larger group, they SHOULD kill the larger one. The AoE caps don't protect good players. We're not asking to penalize large groups, we're asking to not have things in the game that FAVOR a zerg beyond the superiority of number that they already have. The 40 already have a massive advantage if they aren't a bag of potatoes against 10. They don't need AoE caps to protect them on top of it. Even if all it did was cause groups to spread out so they don't get bombed it'd be helpful.

lol no matter how good I am , I shouldn't be able to wipe 40 people with 3 guys. I've already been part of large wipes with just 3 people bombing a big group at once. Take away aoe caps this also will make the Zerg balls stronger that run around with proxy against pugs.

I don't know maybe you guys never seen good players actually decide to Zerg ball too lol which seems to be the new troll these days. It's really just a double edge sword you guys are asking for, instead of removing it, it should be raised/adjusted.

PUGs dont nearly derive as much benefit/protection from AoE caps as Zergballs.

I want to see the video of your 3 man wiping large groups. When it is up for display and everyone can see and replicate how exactly you have done this, then all complaints about AoE caps will go away because you will have conclusively refuted the 87% of us who want to do away with them. Shortly thereafter, the whole blob meta and its accompanying lag will be greatly diminished since the solution to exterminating this menace will be on public display for all of us to learn from and do ourselves.

When people decide to stack on the flag you just bomb them all at once. When people decide to huddle up together on the battlefield you bomb them all at once.

But I can clearly see console cyrodiil and PC is different. That or no one knows how strong bats, proxy and sap is combined, you can wipe up to 10 people by yourself with it.

Yes there's builds out there built specifically for bombing big groups and small 2-5 man group's teaming up just to get a good wipe.

You can also lead people to the top of a resource tower and wipe them but it's usually little by little, wouldn't count that as zerg bombing just randoms not knowing how to work together.

Well it only works agaisnt very clueless groups, and those are very rare on PC because the game is out for much longer. If you remove AoEs the game would just be a zerg and bodyblock fest, it would be worse than now

Lexxypwns · January 2016

Manoekin wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Just a friendly reminder that AoE caps are killing this game. I say this objectively. PvP would be in a wholly healthier place without them.

Zerg more, my friends. Zerg more.

I had a guy in a group the other day say it was a "build issue" that people died, because he survived ever so slightly longer so surely we must have bad builds, I wanted to scream at the top of my lungs that the only reason he lived 1 second longer than us is the AoE Cap rng, instead I just dropped group... I hate scrubs and stupid people

You would have lived longer had you been wearing the Phoenix set like me.

unlikely, that would unnecessarily decrease my shield stack, which as a sorc = tankiness, more on this later

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Just a friendly reminder that AoE caps are killing this game. I say this objectively. PvP would be in a wholly healthier place without them.

Zerg more, my friends. Zerg more.

I had a guy in a group the other day say it was a "build issue" that people died, because he survived ever so slightly longer so surely we must have bad builds, I wanted to scream at the top of my lungs that the only reason he lived 1 second longer than us is the AoE Cap rng, instead I just dropped group... I hate scrubs and stupid people

You would have lived longer had you been wearing the Phoenix set like me.

Or you know had an actual build that was a bit tankier! L2Build issue obviously.

23k shield stack is pretty tanky, I can even roll dodge twice and break cc!

Erondil · January 2016

Leandor wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Mate, what Banana Squad does is exactly the same as what the mass zergs do. There is zero difference between 10 people running prox, swarm and lolnado and 100 doing it. I know you guys are among the top players european PvP has to offer but you nonetheless cheese around.

Unless a defense against this meta is implemented, changing AoE caps will not eliminate the cheese at all. Every other game does that by making AoE do a fraction of the damage per target compared to what a single target attack delivers. Every attack that does large area damage must have some kind of massive downside, e.g. immobility or preventing block, otherwise all these changes will only result in an adjustment of numbers, not a change of meta.

I'm not sure many remember since most of the people that played back then probably quit, but until 1.4 we almost never went above 8 people groups, it was our max cap. And this was viable cause there was skills and mechanics in the game that allowed us to efficently zergbust close to everything with that size of a group.

Theese days we hardly have anything that helps you fight against larger numbers. Now we also have even more free mitigation from IC patch togheter with AoE caps and there is so much free damage reduction from turteling. Even if AoE was ineffefective running a larger group would be the strongest way to play.

No AoE caps is the best defense against the current disease ridden state PvP is in now, The AP changes are a good start but turteling for damage reduction needs to go. Having superiour numbers is already more then enough of a advantage you should'nt get your hand held aswell. A change in numbers is exactly what we need. If you can make more points with less people there will be smaller groups.

The best example ever in what would happen without AoE caps is what old fragmented shields did, that skill if anything punished turteling.

I remember some from good old Auriel's Bow campaign. That said, my opinion still is the same. 4, 8, 10, 100, numbers don't matter. Running together with rapids spam, precharged prox, lolnado, BoL and perfect ultimate placement takes a lot of training and discipline, but still is cheesecake.

Change all AoE (in Cyrodiil only!) to do 1/10 the damage but uncapped and you prevent blobbing. The fact that prox and lolnado are used 1v1 alone tells you that AoE is waaaaaay to strong for any kind of PvP to flourish.

I'm not sure what you mean by "its cheesecake" but I can tell you that 6-8-12 man group is far different from 24 man group. Even if we rely mainly on AoE to kill bigger, even if we have people with purge slotted, with rapid manoeuver slotted and all we arent enough when we're 12- to have people only spamming purge, people only spamming healing sprongs, people only spamming rapid, only spamming rune etcetc. Basically everybody is vital to the group (thats less true when we're more, thats why I find 16 man grp pretty boring) and its not only about discipline. Does it become easy once you have people that perfectly know what they have to do and perfectly know eachother? No, or at least its as "easy"as solo 1vXing after you have been running solo in cyrodiil for thousand hours. Talking as someone who enjoy and runs everything from solo to 12-15 man group.
I think the damage of AoE compared to single target is fine atm, its around 0.5. This doesnt mean AoE start to be better than single target when you fight 3+ people because how the heal works (90% of heal are aoe or multitarget) and the TTK: singletarget burst is better than consistent AoE dps until you hit 5+ people.
Someone using mainly nado in 1v1 is simply in a group build or bad, the only time I could see a use for it is when you want to find some nb cloaking or damage someone in clouding swarm. Deto is already being looked at.
AoE hitting for 1/10 of current dmg would be terrible wtf, nobody would be punished for stacking up so everybody would do so for heals and bodyblock (I mean 500dmg aoe rly) and the only groups able to burst stacked people would be 24+ man raids.

zyk · January 2016

So-called skill and good gameplay are highly subjective things. To a different kind of ignorant gamer, we're all skill-less noobs because their game requires different kinds of proficiencies.

So please, let's leave elitism out of the discussion of AE caps. There is no absolutely right or wrong answer. Supporting AE caps does not make one a lesser being. It's all personal preference and opinion.

I like the AE cap design because it better approximates reality than no caps at all. As each target is hit, there should be less damage transmitted to the next. I don't think a single AE ability should damage an unlimited number of targets within its radius equally.

I do not think it is good game design to allow 6 players to have the ability kill 24+ in a single ulti-bomb, nor do I think such an event would take much skill or be very enjoyable. I believe the removal of AE caps combined with an experienced playerbase (compared to 2014) would result in very bad gameplay that I would describe as cheesy.

I say this as a mostly solo/duo player who frequently zerg dives and would directly benefit from the removal of the cap.

I see the problem differently. The main issue is gameplay design. Mainly in terms of objective layout, player resource pools/regeneration and scoring design. There are too few objectives. The main objectives in the game -- keeps and resources -- are all placed in clusters of 4 in close proximity. The game design encourages various kinds of last stands; including those which may involve all three factions in epic battles the server cannot support. Resource pools and regen allow for players to execute abilities at a rate the server cannot handle during large battles.

A HUGE issue is the implementation of group buffs. A single group ability that can affect 24+ players at a fixed cost is way too efficient. It is too easy for groups to keep purges/rapids/barriers/etc up on groups of 24+. This system needs a redesign. I think it would be fair for the cost of such buffs to scale with the size of the group. The buffs should only affect a limited number of non-group players; to maintain the practice of goodwill buffs to ungrouped players.

Xsorus · January 2016

I personally think it's Azura star, whenever the other servers were filled up they didn't lag nearly as bad or at all.

Xiphyla · January 2016

zyk wrote: »

So-called skill and good gameplay are highly subjective things. To a different kind of ignorant gamer, we're all skill-less noobs because their game requires different kinds of proficiencies.

So please, let's leave elitism out of the discussion of AE caps. There is no absolutely right or wrong answer. Supporting AE caps does not make one a lesser being. It's all personal preference and opinion.

I like the AE cap design because it better approximates reality than no caps at all. As each target is hit, there should be less damage transmitted to the next. I don't think a single AE ability should damage an unlimited number of targets within its radius equally.

I do not think it is good game design to allow 6 players to have the ability kill 24+ in a single ulti-bomb, nor do I think such an event would take much skill or be very enjoyable. I believe the removal of AE caps combined with an experienced playerbase (compared to 2014) would result in very bad gameplay that I would describe as cheesy.

I say this as a mostly solo/duo player who frequently zerg dives and would directly benefit from the removal of the cap.

I see the problem differently. The main issue is gameplay design. Mainly in terms of objective layout, player resource pools/regeneration and scoring design. There are too few objectives. The main objectives in the game -- keeps and resources -- are all placed in clusters of 4 in close proximity. The game design encourages various kinds of last stands; including those which may involve all three factions in epic battles the server cannot support. Resource pools and regen allow for players to execute abilities at a rate the server cannot handle during large battles.

A HUGE issue is the implementation of group buffs. A single group ability that can affect 24+ players at a fixed cost is way too efficient. It is too easy for groups to keep purges/rapids/barriers/etc up on groups of 24+. This system needs a redesign. I think it would be fair for the cost of such buffs to scale with the size of the group. The buffs should only affect a limited number of non-group players; to maintain the practice of goodwill buffs to ungrouped players.

So you are saying that a 6man cant wipe 24man because of the AE ability are just way too efficient. No one ask the 24man to stand in the AE (Not counting steel tornado since that skill need to be nerf as it got a huge radius and impulse dont have a huge radius and it's easy to avoid). AE caps only faciliate to make the bigger group / zergs to be harder to kill as they take lesser damage.

zyk · January 2016

Xiphyla wrote: »

So you are saying that a 6man cant wipe 24man because of the AE ability are just way too efficient. No one ask the 24man to stand in the AE (Not counting steel tornado since that skill need to be nerf as it got a huge radius and impulse dont have a huge radius and it's easy to avoid). AE caps only faciliate to make the bigger group / zergs to be harder to kill as they take lesser damage.

I said that I think it's bad game design for a 6 player group to have the ability to wipe a 24+ player group with a single ulti-dump. This would be possible without the AE cap. IMO, AEs that hit all targets for full damage within their radius would be too powerful. It should not be that easy to negate a team-size advantage.

Nor would it be gameplay I consider skilled. Stealth is too easy and mobility is to great in ESO for full damage to all target AEs in a game without friendly friendly fire.

Think of it this way. Each cast of an ability should have maximum amount of total damage it can inflict. Much like explosions in real life. The more bodies there are in the radius of an explosion, the greater the force required to kill all of them will be. You have a better chance of surviving a the explosion of a nearby grenade if there are a few bodies in between you and it. IMO, the same should be true in a game like this.

The efficiency part relates to group buffs. Just as I do not believe it's good game design for an AE to hit all targets within its radius, I think think the cost of group buffs should scale with the size of the group. It would be more fair if the per-player cost of ultimates/abilities like barrier and purge were similar for both large and small groups.

Large groups should have certain advantages. The key is to make large groups less efficient, less profitable and strategically invalid.

frozywozy · January 2016

zyk wrote: »

Xiphyla wrote: »

So you are saying that a 6man cant wipe 24man because of the AE ability are just way too efficient. No one ask the 24man to stand in the AE (Not counting steel tornado since that skill need to be nerf as it got a huge radius and impulse dont have a huge radius and it's easy to avoid). AE caps only faciliate to make the bigger group / zergs to be harder to kill as they take lesser damage.

I said that I think it's bad game design for a 6 player group to have the ability to wipe a 24+ player group with a single ulti-dump. This would be possible without the AE cap. IMO, AEs that hit all targets for full damage within their radius would be too powerful. It should not be that easy to negate a team-size advantage.

Nor would it be gameplay I consider skilled. Stealth is too easy and mobility is to great in ESO for full damage to all target AEs in a game without friendly friendly fire.

The efficiency part relates to group buffs. Just as I do not believe it's good game design for an AE to hit all targets for full damage within its radius, I think think the cost of group buffs should scale with the size of the group. It would be more fair if the per-player cost of ultimates/abilities like barrier and purge were similar for both large and small groups.

Large groups should have certain advantages. The key is to make large groups less efficient, less profitable and strategically invalid.

I would agree with you if the current servers would support 24vs24men group play. People playing the game the right way (16 or less) need a tool to handle 24+ ballgroups lagging up the servers and thinking they are not part of the problem while being near invulnerable.

zyk · January 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

I would agree with you if the current servers would support 24vs24men group play. People playing the game the right way (16 or less) need a tool to handle 24+ ballgroups lagging up the servers and thinking they are not part of the problem while being near invulnerable.

I think that problem can also be solved with:

- the addition of new objectives; therefore stacking at one place makes their faction less effective and the large zerg easier to avoid
- reduced AP rewards for large groups
- less efficient group buffs that scale based on group size; so it's not effortless to keep purge, rapids and barriers up all the time
- changes to resource management in pvp; smaller resource pools with less regen
- I would also like to see a rolling respawn timer added; something that prevents perpetual respawns; it is too easy for a large group to keep rezzing itself; this is true in small group outnumbered fights as well; perhaps a system in which the first rez within a rolling 10 minute period has no delay, but each additional death within that period induces a progressively longer respawn timer.

Erondil · January 2016

zyk wrote: »

Xiphyla wrote: »

So you are saying that a 6man cant wipe 24man because of the AE ability are just way too efficient. No one ask the 24man to stand in the AE (Not counting steel tornado since that skill need to be nerf as it got a huge radius and impulse dont have a huge radius and it's easy to avoid). AE caps only faciliate to make the bigger group / zergs to be harder to kill as they take lesser damage.

I said that I think it's bad game design for a 6 player group to have the ability to wipe a 24+ player group with a single ulti-dump. This would be possible without the AE cap. IMO, AEs that hit all targets for full damage within their radius would be too powerful. It should not be that easy to negate a team-size advantage.

Nor would it be gameplay I consider skilled. Stealth is too easy and mobility is to great in ESO for full damage to all target AEs in a game without friendly friendly fire.

Think of it this way. Each cast of an ability should have maximum amount of total damage it can inflict. Much like explosions in real life. The more bodies there are in the radius of an explosion, the greater the force required to kill all of them will be. You have a better chance of surviving a the explosion of a nearby grenade if there are a few bodies in between you and it. IMO, the same should be true in a game like this.

The efficiency part relates to group buffs. Just as I do not believe it's good game design for an AE to hit all targets within its radius, I think think the cost of group buffs should scale with the size of the group. It would be more fair if the per-player cost of ultimates/abilities like barrier and purge were similar for both large and small groups.

Large groups should have certain advantages. The key is to make large groups less efficient, less profitable and strategically invalid.

If the 24 man group is bad enough to not see it coming, to not split up, barrier nor even block, then it seems only fair to me that they die. Because a group of 6 would have died the exact same way, unless they split/barrier/block.

zyk · January 2016

Erondil wrote: »

If the 24 man group is bad enough to not see it coming, to not split up, barrier nor even block, then it seems only fair to me that they die. Because a group of 6 would have died the exact same way, unless they split/barrier/block.

It's a lot easier for a small group to coordinate, stay tight and execute on cue without being detected. I think it would be too easy for small groups to execute stealth bombs undetected.

Anyway, I'm just sharing my opinion. I don't think there's one correct approach. Obviously if each of us were to make our own versions of ESO, they would all be different. I think a complete removal of the cap makes it too easy to wipe larger groups and will result in highly initiative skewed combat. That's not my cup of tea. And again, I mostly run solo and duo and am usually at a disadvantage because of the cap.

Leandor · January 2016

Erondil wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by "its cheesecake" but I can tell you that 6-8-12 man group is far different from 24 man group. Even if we rely mainly on AoE to kill bigger, even if we have people with purge slotted, with rapid manoeuver slotted and all we arent enough when we're 12- to have people only spamming purge, people only spamming healing sprongs, people only spamming rapid, only spamming rune etcetc. Basically everybody is vital to the group (thats less true when we're more, thats why I find 16 man grp pretty boring) and its not only about discipline. Does it become easy once you have people that perfectly know what they have to do and perfectly know eachother? No, or at least its as "easy"as solo 1vXing after you have been running solo in cyrodiil for thousand hours. Talking as someone who enjoy and runs everything from solo to 12-15 man group.
I think the damage of AoE compared to single target is fine atm, its around 0.5. This doesnt mean AoE start to be better than single target when you fight 3+ people because how the heal works (90% of heal are aoe or multitarget) and the TTK: singletarget burst is better than consistent AoE dps until you hit 5+ people.
Someone using mainly nado in 1v1 is simply in a group build or bad, the only time I could see a use for it is when you want to find some nb cloaking or damage someone in clouding swarm. Deto is already being looked at.
AoE hitting for 1/10 of current dmg would be terrible wtf, nobody would be punished for stacking up so everybody would do so for heals and bodyblock (I mean 500dmg aoe rly) and the only groups able to burst stacked people would be 24+ man raids.

Mate, every single time I died to you last night, no matter if GvG, GvZ, 1v1, 1v3, 3v1, or whatever, I have at least one proxy from you on my death recap. "looked at" simply doesn't cut it, the skill needs removed asap.

Cheesecake is simply explaimed. If at any time you have maneuvre and prox on you while running next to at least two teammates in stealth to bomb 1 to X enemy players, you are part of the problem.

Of course removal of AoE is not the solution, I never said that. Of course you need to have large damage multi target attacks. But these need to have a serious disadvantage. Siege is a good method: stationary, slow, hard. Siege damage needs to be exempted from battle spirit buff. Templar healing ultimate is another good mechanic: rooted and unable to block.

Either you are mobile and able to defend yourself OR large scale AoE damage. That way the only advantage of the zerg is defensive in nature, you can't roflstomp anymore. Or cheesecake, to stay with the word. While we're at it, remove the bonuses conferred by AoE (e.g. resource regeneration like whirling blades, damage buffs like sap, empowers like barrage, etc.) or limit bonuses to ultimates only.

Remove any and all PBAoE damage abilities. Increase area of targeted AoE abilities. If you must, reintroduce ground oils, they were a 100 times better than lagnado prox batswarm shite.

Lexxypwns · January 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Xiphyla wrote: »

So you are saying that a 6man cant wipe 24man because of the AE ability are just way too efficient. No one ask the 24man to stand in the AE (Not counting steel tornado since that skill need to be nerf as it got a huge radius and impulse dont have a huge radius and it's easy to avoid). AE caps only faciliate to make the bigger group / zergs to be harder to kill as they take lesser damage.

I said that I think it's bad game design for a 6 player group to have the ability to wipe a 24+ player group with a single ulti-dump. This would be possible without the AE cap. IMO, AEs that hit all targets for full damage within their radius would be too powerful. It should not be that easy to negate a team-size advantage.

Nor would it be gameplay I consider skilled. Stealth is too easy and mobility is to great in ESO for full damage to all target AEs in a game without friendly friendly fire.

The efficiency part relates to group buffs. Just as I do not believe it's good game design for an AE to hit all targets for full damage within its radius, I think think the cost of group buffs should scale with the size of the group. It would be more fair if the per-player cost of ultimates/abilities like barrier and purge were similar for both large and small groups.

Large groups should have certain advantages. The key is to make large groups less efficient, less profitable and strategically invalid.

I would agree with you if the current servers would support 24vs24men group play. People playing the game the right way (16 or less) need a tool to handle 24+ ballgroups lagging up the servers and thinking they are not part of the problem while being near invulnerable.

Hides his 8 man in 40 pugs, blames others for zerging...

Greiver · January 2016

Iyas wrote: »

Everyone knows it and ZENIMAX DOESN'T CARE :'(

Fixed it for ya.

Rune_Relic · January 2016

1. Dynamic ulti isnt a thing anymore so no more spamming ults instead of AoE.
2. Spamming aoe is now a thing as ults is no longer spammable.
3. AoE power creep is a thing as people want AoE to do the damage ults did.
4. Single target skills are becoming more redundant as AoE offers far more advantage on a cost/dps/hit scale.
5. Buff on buff on buff on buff (+secondaries/dots/hots) is causing issues in Vet PvP combined with players hit.
6. The total server population + campaign size + number of players being hit at anytime is stacking and killing the server (ie combined code).

Dynamic ulti had to go because some builds/classes had 100% uptime making ulti spammable like AoE (see code stacking).
Spammable AoE isnt an issue except when it kills the server (see code stacking) and makes single target use redundant due to cost/dps/hit.
AoE power creep is an issue as it makes single target and ulti redundant due to cost/dps/hit.
Every player hitting someone else and being hit by someone else has to navigate 100% of all potental buff/secondary/tertiary code without even considering existing Hots and Dots stacking to the load every tick (see code stacking).

Cost/DPS/Hit

If you want to optimise performance in PvP you want to hit as many people as possible with as much damage as possible with the lowest cost possible.
This gives you the greatest impact on the battelfield per resource and makes you a valuable asset and team member.
This means several things:
a) you want the highest AoE cap you can get to minimise cost/dps/hit and TTK
b) you want to stack as many buffs as you can get, with the most OP AoE skill you can use, to minimise cost/dps/hit and TTK
c) you want to optimise animation cancelling for "perfect timing" to make sure "all skills fire without fail" and to minimise cost per dps and thus minimise cost/dps/hit and TTK.
All of which kill the server through players hit, buffs tracked and animation cancelling impacting on the calculations per second the server does.

Code Stacking

Total server population is simply prime time or not.
The number of active players logged on at any time.
Lag is always worse in prime time as the server is already loaded through general numbers in and out of combat.
Every player added pumps more code through the server pipeline.
Adding more hardware and gateways is the only real fix for prime time players.
Limiting paying customers access isnt really an option.

Campaign size has a greater impact on the likely density of players at any one location, so minimises the total number of people that can be damaged/healed/buffed at any moment in time.
In theory, its a nice idea and reduces code through the server pipeline by 1000s of peoople simply not hitting/healing/buffing so many people at once.
In practice, people still clump together and go where the action is.
Regardless, its better to have 100 people at one spot than 1000, so it does sort of work.
BUT..this is what everyone signed up for anyway...massive on screen battles without lag.
Reducing player density defeats the object of large scale warfare and isnt really an option.

Number of players damaged/healed/buffed per second.
(The aoe falloff issue aside which shouldnt be in the game as it doesnt allow effective use of the aoe caps).
Lag doesnt happen all the time.
Lag only happens when PvP players are clustered so close together that the number of players damaged/healed/buffed per second increases rapidly.
This isnt just by the ball group purging/healing etc...but also through all the players using AoE to damage them.
Both the attacked ball group and the players attacking the ball group generate the rapid increase in stacked code.
The same impact happens at breaches and flags even without ball groups.
This is burst load that cripples the server until the server has dealt with the backlog of player updates that it cant keep up with.
At prime time this will be worse as the servers are already taxed through active players.
In high campaign size this is worse as the general player density already adds to the number of players damaged/healed/buffed per second.

Efficiency savings

Compressing the number of lines of code to be executed by 5% here and 10% there is useful and adds up, but doesnt have a massive impact on Lag.
The only way to make a sizable dent on Lag is to compress the lines of executable code by 100%, ie simply not hitting so many people with damage/heals/buffs at once.
This means severely reducing the potential players hit per second through campaign size (not viable), players online (not viable) or AoE caps.

Reducing AoE cap Issues.

Ball groups are an issue as numbers scale well with group size be it healing/purging or coordinated bombing.
Especially as smart heals effectivelty remove their 6 player AoE caps, due to hitting "any" players within the selection radius with greatest damage.
Smart heals are in effect "uncapped", with a "falloff" that targets 6 most damaged players, even if 100 players are on the same spot.
AoE damage in contrast just targets 60 nearest to epicenter with the first 6 getting most damage and hitting upto 54 other players with lesser damage.
AoE damage does not target the 6 most damaged players in the selection circle as a direct counter to smart heals, nor is it uncapped as a consequence.

Two wrongs dont make a right though.
Making AoE damage uncapped just adds to the lag if the skills are spammable and can be cancelled too.
The only answer to ball groups then (aside smart damage), is to have high-impact skills "that arent spammable" and being cancelled is inconsequential.
This means ultimates "without" dynamic ult gain.

TL;DR
The only way to fix PvP Lag and ball groups is....
1. Remove AoE falloff (ie make sure aoe get the most bang for buck without crippling server).
2. Lower all "spammable" AoE caps to a minimal functional state and group only where possible (ie 4-6 players and thus make single target more viable in PvP with a more comparable cost/dps/hit).
3. Reinstate "non-spammable" indiscriminatory ultimate as the zerg balling antidote with a high AoE cap (ie hits 24 players and not for DPS build use only).
4. Fix smart heals so that they arent "uncapped" (ie group only enforces an upto 24 player selection limit rather than any of the 100+ stacked on flag for emp flip).
5. Eliminate animation cancelling unless ZOS can come up with a way to keep the cost/dps/hit constant and compensate for the extra server calculations per second incurred.
6. Restore campaign size to its lag free former glory now that total damage/heals/buffs/HoTs/DoTs per second in the servers pipeline have been reduced to hardware/network limited levels.
7. Rationalise and minimise conditional/transient buff/HoT/DoT/5pc/active server stacking/tracking. (Work in progress).

Result... beta style, massive battle game play with no lag (even with zerg balls that can now be killed using indiscriminatory non-spammable ults and far less effective aoe heals/purges/buffs).

Hitting more people only helps if its guaranteed to kill them.
What are we asking for to do this ?
1-shot spammable AoE ?
I really don't think that's going to help the TTK issue on one hand or lag on the other.
That's a TTK or LAG issue to choose from and I'd rather not choose either.

/shrugs

Satiar · January 2016

zyk wrote: »

Xiphyla wrote: »

So you are saying that a 6man cant wipe 24man because of the AE ability are just way too efficient. No one ask the 24man to stand in the AE (Not counting steel tornado since that skill need to be nerf as it got a huge radius and impulse dont have a huge radius and it's easy to avoid). AE caps only faciliate to make the bigger group / zergs to be harder to kill as they take lesser damage.

I said that I think it's bad game design for a 6 player group to have the ability to wipe a 24+ player group with a single ulti-dump. This would be possible without the AE cap. IMO, AEs that hit all targets for full damage within their radius would be too powerful. It should not be that easy to negate a team-size advantage.

Nor would it be gameplay I consider skilled. Stealth is too easy and mobility is to great in ESO for full damage to all target AEs in a game without friendly friendly fire.

Think of it this way. Each cast of an ability should have maximum amount of total damage it can inflict. Much like explosions in real life. The more bodies there are in the radius of an explosion, the greater the force required to kill all of them will be. You have a better chance of surviving a the explosion of a nearby grenade if there are a few bodies in between you and it. IMO, the same should be true in a game like this.

The efficiency part relates to group buffs. Just as I do not believe it's good game design for an AE to hit all targets within its radius, I think think the cost of group buffs should scale with the size of the group. It would be more fair if the per-player cost of ultimates/abilities like barrier and purge were similar for both large and small groups.

Large groups should have certain advantages. The key is to make large groups less efficient, less profitable and strategically invalid.

It's already possible to wipe 24 with 6. It takes a good choke like an inner keep but yeah, you can do it fairly easy. 6 bats, proxes, maybe a meatbag. If they're bad you can do it.

Overall that's the thing I'd note, player skill is the difference. People will say only numbers matter in this game but that's not really true. It's just incredibly difficult to win outnumbered against people who know what they're doing. You can already bomb bad groups with 1/4-1/3 thier numbers and win, the aoe cap doesn't protect them from being bad. What tends to happen, though, is those same 6-8 or whoever will try the same thing on a good group, get smashed, and fall back on blaming game mechanics.

People who think we need stronger burst on groups IMO have no idea how strong burst already is.

Nutshotz · January 2016

didn't you guys get the memo, @wrobel is a nit wit that has no common sense of this game and or is to afraid to stand up against the players solely cuz we the players know what is going on in this game and to have a so called lead dev that has no common knowledge of this game makes it even worse. my 4 yr old son could run this game better then wrobel, and wheeler combined, that's how bad both of those 2 are!

and no I'm not bashing either of them. I'm stating the obvious truth that people are afraid to say

Joy_Division · January 2016

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You guys say this until a group of organized proxy/bat group wipe out entire Zerg of 40 with just 10 people lol hell I can just imagine hitting someone with ice comet as emp with no caps , I already one shotted people with it

If a smaller group outplays a larger group, they SHOULD kill the larger one. The AoE caps don't protect good players. We're not asking to penalize large groups, we're asking to not have things in the game that FAVOR a zerg beyond the superiority of number that they already have. The 40 already have a massive advantage if they aren't a bag of potatoes against 10. They don't need AoE caps to protect them on top of it. Even if all it did was cause groups to spread out so they don't get bombed it'd be helpful.

lol no matter how good I am , I shouldn't be able to wipe 40 people with 3 guys. I've already been part of large wipes with just 3 people bombing a big group at once. Take away aoe caps this also will make the Zerg balls stronger that run around with proxy against pugs.

I don't know maybe you guys never seen good players actually decide to Zerg ball too lol which seems to be the new troll these days. It's really just a double edge sword you guys are asking for, instead of removing it, it should be raised/adjusted.

PUGs dont nearly derive as much benefit/protection from AoE caps as Zergballs.

I want to see the video of your 3 man wiping large groups. When it is up for display and everyone can see and replicate how exactly you have done this, then all complaints about AoE caps will go away because you will have conclusively refuted the 87% of us who want to do away with them. Shortly thereafter, the whole blob meta and its accompanying lag will be greatly diminished since the solution to exterminating this menace will be on public display for all of us to learn from and do ourselves.

When people decide to stack on the flag you just bomb them all at once. When people decide to huddle up together on the battlefield you bomb them all at once.

But I can clearly see console cyrodiil and PC is different. That or no one knows how strong bats, proxy and sap is combined, you can wipe up to 10 people by yourself with it.

Yes there's builds out there built specifically for bombing big groups and small 2-5 man group's teaming up just to get a good wipe.

You can also lead people to the top of a resource tower and wipe them but it's usually little by little, wouldn't count that as zerg bombing just randoms not knowing how to work together.

I take it this means you don't have a video.

frozywozy · January 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Xiphyla wrote: »

So you are saying that a 6man cant wipe 24man because of the AE ability are just way too efficient. No one ask the 24man to stand in the AE (Not counting steel tornado since that skill need to be nerf as it got a huge radius and impulse dont have a huge radius and it's easy to avoid). AE caps only faciliate to make the bigger group / zergs to be harder to kill as they take lesser damage.

I said that I think it's bad game design for a 6 player group to have the ability to wipe a 24+ player group with a single ulti-dump. This would be possible without the AE cap. IMO, AEs that hit all targets for full damage within their radius would be too powerful. It should not be that easy to negate a team-size advantage.

Nor would it be gameplay I consider skilled. Stealth is too easy and mobility is to great in ESO for full damage to all target AEs in a game without friendly friendly fire.

The efficiency part relates to group buffs. Just as I do not believe it's good game design for an AE to hit all targets for full damage within its radius, I think think the cost of group buffs should scale with the size of the group. It would be more fair if the per-player cost of ultimates/abilities like barrier and purge were similar for both large and small groups.

Large groups should have certain advantages. The key is to make large groups less efficient, less profitable and strategically invalid.

I would agree with you if the current servers would support 24vs24men group play. People playing the game the right way (16 or less) need a tool to handle 24+ ballgroups lagging up the servers and thinking they are not part of the problem while being near invulnerable.

Hides his 8 man in 40 pugs, blames others for zerging...

Bring me proofs that I hide my 8man in 40pugs, then we can talk. Until that happens, keep running your mouth assuming you know something about how I roll, what kind of person I am and keep spiking up the server ping to 800ms, running around the milegate with 35players and discourage any resistance to oppose you.

Manoekin · January 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Xiphyla wrote: »

So you are saying that a 6man cant wipe 24man because of the AE ability are just way too efficient. No one ask the 24man to stand in the AE (Not counting steel tornado since that skill need to be nerf as it got a huge radius and impulse dont have a huge radius and it's easy to avoid). AE caps only faciliate to make the bigger group / zergs to be harder to kill as they take lesser damage.

I said that I think it's bad game design for a 6 player group to have the ability to wipe a 24+ player group with a single ulti-dump. This would be possible without the AE cap. IMO, AEs that hit all targets for full damage within their radius would be too powerful. It should not be that easy to negate a team-size advantage.

Nor would it be gameplay I consider skilled. Stealth is too easy and mobility is to great in ESO for full damage to all target AEs in a game without friendly friendly fire.

The efficiency part relates to group buffs. Just as I do not believe it's good game design for an AE to hit all targets for full damage within its radius, I think think the cost of group buffs should scale with the size of the group. It would be more fair if the per-player cost of ultimates/abilities like barrier and purge were similar for both large and small groups.

Large groups should have certain advantages. The key is to make large groups less efficient, less profitable and strategically invalid.

I would agree with you if the current servers would support 24vs24men group play. People playing the game the right way (16 or less) need a tool to handle 24+ ballgroups lagging up the servers and thinking they are not part of the problem while being near invulnerable.

Hides his 8 man in 40 pugs, blames others for zerging...

Bring me proofs that I hide my 8man in 40pugs, then we can talk. Until that happens, keep running your mouth assuming you know something about how I roll, what kind of person I am and keep spiking up the server ping to 800ms, running around the milegate with 35players and discourage any resistance to oppose you.

Bro yo were at Ash on reset day. That's all anyone needs to know.

frozywozy · January 2016

Manoekin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Xiphyla wrote: »

So you are saying that a 6man cant wipe 24man because of the AE ability are just way too efficient. No one ask the 24man to stand in the AE (Not counting steel tornado since that skill need to be nerf as it got a huge radius and impulse dont have a huge radius and it's easy to avoid). AE caps only faciliate to make the bigger group / zergs to be harder to kill as they take lesser damage.

I said that I think it's bad game design for a 6 player group to have the ability to wipe a 24+ player group with a single ulti-dump. This would be possible without the AE cap. IMO, AEs that hit all targets for full damage within their radius would be too powerful. It should not be that easy to negate a team-size advantage.

Nor would it be gameplay I consider skilled. Stealth is too easy and mobility is to great in ESO for full damage to all target AEs in a game without friendly friendly fire.

The efficiency part relates to group buffs. Just as I do not believe it's good game design for an AE to hit all targets for full damage within its radius, I think think the cost of group buffs should scale with the size of the group. It would be more fair if the per-player cost of ultimates/abilities like barrier and purge were similar for both large and small groups.

Large groups should have certain advantages. The key is to make large groups less efficient, less profitable and strategically invalid.

I would agree with you if the current servers would support 24vs24men group play. People playing the game the right way (16 or less) need a tool to handle 24+ ballgroups lagging up the servers and thinking they are not part of the problem while being near invulnerable.

Hides his 8 man in 40 pugs, blames others for zerging...

Bring me proofs that I hide my 8man in 40pugs, then we can talk. Until that happens, keep running your mouth assuming you know something about how I roll, what kind of person I am and keep spiking up the server ping to 800ms, running around the milegate with 35players and discourage any resistance to oppose you.

Bro yo were at Ash on reset day. That's all anyone needs to know.

I don't get it. What's wrong about that?

Derra · January 2016

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

didn't you guys get the memo, @wrobel is a nit wit that has no common sense of this game and or is to afraid to stand up against the players solely cuz we the players know what is going on in this game and to have a so called lead dev that has no common knowledge of this game makes it even worse. my 4 yr old son could run this game better then wrobel, and wheeler combined, that's how bad both of those 2 are!

and no I'm not bashing either of them. I'm stating the obvious truth that people are afraid to say

Wheeler is a nice guy and i acutally believe he knows what he´s doing. He´s just responsible for a part of the game that nobody at zos apart from his department gives a f*** about and therefor he can hardly change anything...

Satiar · January 2016

Sad truth is even if every major Pvp guild left in the game dies and what is left of competitive Pvp dies, ESO as a game will go on much as before. At this point the success of Pvp has little $value.

Erondil · January 2016

Leandor wrote: »

Mate, every single time I died to you last night, no matter if GvG, GvZ, 1v1, 1v3, 3v1, or whatever, I have at least one proxy from you on my death recap. "looked at" simply doesn't cut it, the skill needs removed asap.

Well yes in group all our magicka build use deto (and friday we had 7 magicka build, for 8 man grp). We use it because its currently the only way to burst bigger groups through their heals, their barriers and their free mitigation from AoE caps along with coordinate ultimate. And yes when I 1v1/1vX while in grp build I use it (rarely on my solo build tho). I think deto should be weaker when it hits only 1 player, its still too strong in 1v1. However when it hits several target damages are fine imo, I would even increase the cap of the scaling.

Leandor wrote: »

Cheesecake is simply explaimed. If at any time you have maneuvre and prox on you while running next to at least two teammates in stealth to bomb 1 to X enemy players, you are part of the problem

Mmh I don't get it, why? Deto is the zerg buster skill, is it a problem to use it to zergbust bigger groups? You have to stack together and have ultimate ready (quite danherous with this size of group), you have to face a stacked group or smartly use a choke point, and even then its not 100% instakill, 3 ult+ 3 deto wont kill a group of decent players, and after gl to survive. To me it just looks like you hate this skill for some reason, eventhough its the best anti zerg/stack up tool currently.

Jura23 · January 2016

zyk wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

If the 24 man group is bad enough to not see it coming, to not split up, barrier nor even block, then it seems only fair to me that they die. Because a group of 6 would have died the exact same way, unless they split/barrier/block.

...

I agree with most of what you said. Really good points. Thx for for writing it down.

Leandor · January 2016

Erondil wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Mate, every single time I died to you last night, no matter if GvG, GvZ, 1v1, 1v3, 3v1, or whatever, I have at least one proxy from you on my death recap. "looked at" simply doesn't cut it, the skill needs removed asap.

Well yes in group all our magicka build use deto (and friday we had 7 magicka build, for 8 man grp). We use it because its currently the only way to burst bigger groups through their heals, their barriers and their free mitigation from AoE caps along with coordinate ultimate. And yes when I 1v1/1vX while in grp build I use it (rarely on my solo build tho). I think deto should be weaker when it hits only 1 player, its still too strong in 1v1. However when it hits several target damages are fine imo, I would even increase the cap of the scaling.

Leandor wrote: »

Cheesecake is simply explaimed. If at any time you have maneuvre and prox on you while running next to at least two teammates in stealth to bomb 1 to X enemy players, you are part of the problem

Mmh I don't get it, why? Deto is the zerg buster skill, is it a problem to use it to zergbust bigger groups? You have to stack together and have ultimate ready (quite danherous with this size of group), you have to face a stacked group or smartly use a choke point, and even then its not 100% instakill, 3 ult+ 3 deto wont kill a group of decent players, and after gl to survive. To me it just looks like you hate this skill for some reason, eventhough its the best anti zerg/stack up tool currently.

Damn right I hate that ability. It may be the best option to kill ballgroups, but eating feces just because it's the only thing readily available is still abhorrent. Also, it can be used by ballgroups just as efficiently as BS proves time and again. I proposed some months ago already to triple its damage and have it kill the caster as well. That way you have a zerg buster that can't be abused by trains.

Maybe I am playing the wrong game, but this ball-up-run-through-kill-all meta needs to DIAF. Instead of stupid shite like that skill, ZOS should go through with the siege changes. Unless the snares will still be canceled by maneuvre, this will be the first thing done properly to kill zergs - and I don't give a damn about this if-it's-less-then-X-it's-no-zerg excuses.

CatchMeTrolling · January 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You guys say this until a group of organized proxy/bat group wipe out entire Zerg of 40 with just 10 people lol hell I can just imagine hitting someone with ice comet as emp with no caps , I already one shotted people with it

If a smaller group outplays a larger group, they SHOULD kill the larger one. The AoE caps don't protect good players. We're not asking to penalize large groups, we're asking to not have things in the game that FAVOR a zerg beyond the superiority of number that they already have. The 40 already have a massive advantage if they aren't a bag of potatoes against 10. They don't need AoE caps to protect them on top of it. Even if all it did was cause groups to spread out so they don't get bombed it'd be helpful.

lol no matter how good I am , I shouldn't be able to wipe 40 people with 3 guys. I've already been part of large wipes with just 3 people bombing a big group at once. Take away aoe caps this also will make the Zerg balls stronger that run around with proxy against pugs.

I don't know maybe you guys never seen good players actually decide to Zerg ball too lol which seems to be the new troll these days. It's really just a double edge sword you guys are asking for, instead of removing it, it should be raised/adjusted.

PUGs dont nearly derive as much benefit/protection from AoE caps as Zergballs.

I want to see the video of your 3 man wiping large groups. When it is up for display and everyone can see and replicate how exactly you have done this, then all complaints about AoE caps will go away because you will have conclusively refuted the 87% of us who want to do away with them. Shortly thereafter, the whole blob meta and its accompanying lag will be greatly diminished since the solution to exterminating this menace will be on public display for all of us to learn from and do ourselves.

When people decide to stack on the flag you just bomb them all at once. When people decide to huddle up together on the battlefield you bomb them all at once.

But I can clearly see console cyrodiil and PC is different. That or no one knows how strong bats, proxy and sap is combined, you can wipe up to 10 people by yourself with it.

Yes there's builds out there built specifically for bombing big groups and small 2-5 man group's teaming up just to get a good wipe.

You can also lead people to the top of a resource tower and wipe them but it's usually little by little, wouldn't count that as zerg bombing just randoms not knowing how to work together.

I take it this means you don't have a video.

Been there, done that. If you want to have that "well I haven't done it so no one else can do it" outlook so be it lol Zerg bombing is pretty common, like I said its people with builds built just for that purpose.

duuude9192b14_ESO · January 2016

Takllin wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

AoE caps are only an issue because of how powerful healing is, and the Battle Spirit changes.

I think it's funny that some people act like it's the end all be all solution, and that they will automatically wipe anyone who uses the ball method. It's as if they think that if you are balled up, you have zero skill and are a pug...

This stuff was all used far before anyone ever started this crusade against AoE caps, the only problem now is that pugs aren't straggling around as much, no dynamic ulti gen and the damage mitigation nerfs make it a lot harder to kill numbers larger than your own. So people are pissed they can't wipe what they could before, and they chose AoE caps as the target for their anger.

It's also funny when people *** about AoE caps run single target builds.....and the people that used to run in these so called ball groups and now act like they are somehow superior and above it all....

It's definetly "the" solution, but it will help togheter with other changes. Honestly i still think no caps and dynamic ultimate regen would be the fix.

It's "the" solution if your looking to wipe bad players.

I don't think there should be completely uncapped damage, but I'd like to see AoE caps changed to the first 12 or so take full damage instead of 6, and something other than this *** poor excuse for an ulti gen system as well.

This may not be the "end-all be-all" solution but it definitely contributes in a big way to helping pvp. Along with other changes, specifically siege dmg and that being uncapped, this I believe to be a rather effective way to make pvp a better experience.

Joy_Division wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You guys say this until a group of organized proxy/bat group wipe out entire Zerg of 40 with just 10 people lol hell I can just imagine hitting someone with ice comet as emp with no caps , I already one shotted people with it

If a smaller group outplays a larger group, they SHOULD kill the larger one. The AoE caps don't protect good players. We're not asking to penalize large groups, we're asking to not have things in the game that FAVOR a zerg beyond the superiority of number that they already have. The 40 already have a massive advantage if they aren't a bag of potatoes against 10. They don't need AoE caps to protect them on top of it. Even if all it did was cause groups to spread out so they don't get bombed it'd be helpful.

lol no matter how good I am , I shouldn't be able to wipe 40 people with 3 guys. I've already been part of large wipes with just 3 people bombing a big group at once. Take away aoe caps this also will make the Zerg balls stronger that run around with proxy against pugs.

I don't know maybe you guys never seen good players actually decide to Zerg ball too lol which seems to be the new troll these days. It's really just a double edge sword you guys are asking for, instead of removing it, it should be raised/adjusted.

PUGs dont nearly derive as much benefit/protection from AoE caps as Zergballs.

I want to see the video of your 3 man wiping large groups. When it is up for display and everyone can see and replicate how exactly you have done this, then all complaints about AoE caps will go away because you will have conclusively refuted the 87% of us who want to do away with them. Shortly thereafter, the whole blob meta and its accompanying lag will be greatly diminished since the solution to exterminating this menace will be on public display for all of us to learn from and do ourselves.

Beautifully written rebuttal. Absolutely beautiful.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You guys say this until a group of organized proxy/bat group wipe out entire Zerg of 40 with just 10 people lol hell I can just imagine hitting someone with ice comet as emp with no caps , I already one shotted people with it

If a smaller group outplays a larger group, they SHOULD kill the larger one. The AoE caps don't protect good players. We're not asking to penalize large groups, we're asking to not have things in the game that FAVOR a zerg beyond the superiority of number that they already have. The 40 already have a massive advantage if they aren't a bag of potatoes against 10. They don't need AoE caps to protect them on top of it. Even if all it did was cause groups to spread out so they don't get bombed it'd be helpful.

lol no matter how good I am , I shouldn't be able to wipe 40 people with 3 guys. I've already been part of large wipes with just 3 people bombing a big group at once. Take away aoe caps this also will make the Zerg balls stronger that run around with proxy against pugs.

I don't know maybe you guys never seen good players actually decide to Zerg ball too lol which seems to be the new troll these days. It's really just a double edge sword you guys are asking for, instead of removing it, it should be raised/adjusted.

PUGs dont nearly derive as much benefit/protection from AoE caps as Zergballs.

I want to see the video of your 3 man wiping large groups. When it is up for display and everyone can see and replicate how exactly you have done this, then all complaints about AoE caps will go away because you will have conclusively refuted the 87% of us who want to do away with them. Shortly thereafter, the whole blob meta and its accompanying lag will be greatly diminished since the solution to exterminating this menace will be on public display for all of us to learn from and do ourselves.

When people decide to stack on the flag you just bomb them all at once. When people decide to huddle up together on the battlefield you bomb them all at once.

But I can clearly see console cyrodiil and PC is different. That or no one knows how strong bats, proxy and sap is combined, you can wipe up to 10 people by yourself with it.

Yes there's builds out there built specifically for bombing big groups and small 2-5 man group's teaming up just to get a good wipe.

You can also lead people to the top of a resource tower and wipe them but it's usually little by little, wouldn't count that as zerg bombing just randoms not knowing how to work together.

First of all, flags only require SIX players to reach the maximum capture speed for a flag flip. There is ABSOLUTELY no need to ball up 30 players on a flag. It's a bad habit invented by a terribly practiced drone play-style.

Furthermore, stacking 30 players anywhere in cyrodil WILL be unnecessary when AOE caps are removed. It is an antiquated and bad tactic to place all your troops in a tight area on a battlefield, unless you consider the current state of AOE Caps and numbers. Generally, flanking maneuvers and special small team roles take place that require spreading out and give you much more advantage in battle.

Xsorus · January 2016

zyk wrote: »

So-called skill and good gameplay are highly subjective things. To a different kind of ignorant gamer, we're all skill-less noobs because their game requires different kinds of proficiencies.

So please, let's leave elitism out of the discussion of AE caps. There is no absolutely right or wrong answer. Supporting AE caps does not make one a lesser being. It's all personal preference and opinion.

I like the AE cap design because it better approximates reality than no caps at all. As each target is hit, there should be less damage transmitted to the next. I don't think a single AE ability should damage an unlimited number of targets within its radius equally.

I do not think it is good game design to allow 6 players to have the ability kill 24+ in a single ulti-bomb, nor do I think such an event would take much skill or be very enjoyable. I believe the removal of AE caps combined with an experienced playerbase (compared to 2014) would result in very bad gameplay that I would describe as cheesy.

I say this as a mostly solo/duo player who frequently zerg dives and would directly benefit from the removal of the cap.

I see the problem differently. The main issue is gameplay design. Mainly in terms of objective layout, player resource pools/regeneration and scoring design. There are too few objectives. The main objectives in the game -- keeps and resources -- are all placed in clusters of 4 in close proximity. The game design encourages various kinds of last stands; including those which may involve all three factions in epic battles the server cannot support. Resource pools and regen allow for players to execute abilities at a rate the server cannot handle during large battles.

A HUGE issue is the implementation of group buffs. A single group ability that can affect 24+ players at a fixed cost is way too efficient. It is too easy for groups to keep purges/rapids/barriers/etc up on groups of 24+. This system needs a redesign. I think it would be fair for the cost of such buffs to scale with the size of the group. The buffs should only affect a limited number of non-group players; to maintain the practice of goodwill buffs to ungrouped players.

I think you should 100% be able to kill 24+ people with 6 if they're all stacked up for you to do it in a single ult bomb.

This is what happens in proper pvp games where you try to you know..avoid getting AOEd down

rewarding 24 morons and yes..they're morons if they're stacked up with a no aoe cap game...because they're running 24 people is downright silly....