Can you really play any charcter you want?

vyndral13preub18_ESO · December 2015

You can play on the way you want. Of course people forget that rule isnt about just you. Everyone gets to play the way they want. If thier way includes min/maxing builds and not running with people with lesser builds, that is thier choice. They are playing the way they want to play.

So if that is a deal breaker for you, find a guild or group that likes to play the same way you do.

Robotmafia · December 2015

well if your group is a standard group set up then u need to fit into one of the 3 roles...

but you can succesfully run most of the content with special builds.. but this only works if again your whole group is built around it.. for example you want to run without a healer, then each group member has to heal a little bit to compensate that change...

i think u can play the way you want, but when in group play you either have to fit into a role or the group has to be built specifically for the style you would like

with PUGs it obviously doesnt work because they follow the standard play styles

Artjuh90 · December 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

2h is a must for Nightblades? That's new. Personally I prefer DW and Bow/S+B. You get your major brutality from flying dagger and heals from Vigor. Executioner isn't needed because my killer's blade can hit up to 12.5k on a good day (which is why I'm against those people wanting it to do physical damage), and I don't need the passive 2h weapon damage because I'm not using wrecking blow on a nb.
So, people saying 2h is a must have no idea what they're talking about and you shouldn't listen to them. As long as your build is effective and won't let the team down, then who cares if you use a mousepad and a piece of cheese as your weapons.

To answer the actual topic question "can you really play any character you want", I would say yes and no. I wanted to use DW and Bow, and it works for me. Some people want to use ridiculous builds that are in no way effective, so they can't really get away with playing how they want if they want to be accepted in particular groups, or win a fight and not look like a clown.
It all depends how extreme you really want to be.

Personally I think it's awesome you don't use a 2h and found a way to think outside the box. You're not just another lemming copying builds. Don't let any one tell you to stop being creative

@alcuardo in the PvE disscussion about alliance skills you say a stamina char doesn't need vigor. kinda disproved your there with this one here

TalonShina · December 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

You can play any role you want with any class.

The problem is not class and role but the result of a certain combinations.

Everything revolves around time, the higher the dmg output of the group the shorter the time exposed to danger.

For example, if you have a good tank who can self-sustain the healer can focus more on dps making the fights even shorter.
Templars have the benefit of having strong class healing abilities, this allows them to heal while dpsing, even without having a resto staff equipped.

Some players only stick to their 'role' and that is terrible for the group, every group member should help out with dps as much as possible.

Having a healer that pulls 10-15k dps while keeping everyone alive is very useful, fights just end a lot quicker.

I like this because i feel it's true. i am still messing around to find my perfect combo and i like finding people who think this way.

Darlgon · December 2015

Alcast wrote: »

You can play how you want if you want to be shitttty, if you want to do smth fancy to fotm or gtfo

@Alcast I know you mean well, but.. well.. Since the OP is obviously a newer player and has no idea what those acronyms are, much less mean. Some of them, I dont even recognize.

altemriel · December 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

You can play how you want if you want to be shitttty, if you want to do smth fancy to fotm or gtfo

@Alcast I know you mean well, but.. well.. Since the OP is obviously a newer player and has no idea what those acronyms are, much less mean. Some of them, I dont even recognize.

I agree

Rune_Relic · December 2015

Can you really play any charcter you want?
I gave you an awesome for the topic and the well thought out post.

The problem is the game is NOT designed to allow hybrids.
Hybrids get the thin end of the stick compared to pure builds and nothing to make up the shortfall.
It can be fixed...but it requires hybrid effectiveness being built into the overall design.
ie. parity dictating the power of some abilities and purity dictating the power of others.
eg. Purity directly controls "direct damage" scaling. There is nothing that scales with parity.

Grouping is a seperate issue.
The group finder only has Tank/Healer/DPS options and no hybrid selection.
This proves beyond doubt hybrids were not designed to be an inclusive part of the game.
And as such ....there is no way you can... "play as you want", as there is only 3 viable build styles to pick and not 100s.
Let alone a non-trinity/hybrid option.

However, you can possibly still play as a Hybrid with like minded people.
Rather than 100% Healer + 100% Tank + 100% DPS...
..you can use 33% heal / 33% tank / 33% DPS + 33% heal / 33% tank / 33% DPS + 33% heal / 33% tank / 33% DPS
ie. You could use 3 hybrids parity builds to replace the Tank/Heal/DPS pure builds.
(or variations of the ratios to complement each other)
But you would be working as a team and taking care of all aspects at once.
You would need to take it in turns with heals/mitigation/damage and stacking these when required.
Combined, you can in theory put out the damage of the DPS, the healer and the tank.
In reality, healing mitigation and dps all scale of purity and so the lack of parity defeats you again.
Ultimates would catastrophically suffer too, due to the way they scale.

Why else is this hyrbid combo also difficult to make work ?
Only 5 skills on the skill bar means the healer gets 5 healing skills, the tank gets 5 tanking skills, the dps gets 5 dps skills.
The 3x hyrbid group gets 2/2/1 skills each.
Some may argue 1 heal, 1 tanking and 1 dps skill is all you need, but you are limited never the less.

Regardless, I play as a hybrid as I want to play as anything I choose.
ESO doesnt allow that at present so I am automatically gimped.
If that means I play solo, then I play solo.
Thankfully there are 100s of other players that would rather "play as they want" than be typecast into 3 roles.
So I get by and have fun too.

The choice...is yours... to make

Dont let anyone else tell you who and what you should be.
Otherwise you are just playing their game and not your game.
Wheres the fun in that ?
I would rather die 100s of times with a character I love, than once with a build I hate playing.
For others....winning is everything.
So using the latest type-cast trinity FoTM IWIN build is all that matters to them and ESOs' design gives them no choice in this.

TL;DR
If you want to play hyrbid, find other hyrbid players that understand why you do what you do.
These players will understand you.... hardcore trinity players will not.
Above all....have fun and enjoy the game.

Alcast · December 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

You can play how you want if you want to be shitttty, if you want to do smth fancy to fotm or gtfo

@Alcast I know you mean well, but.. well.. Since the OP is obviously a newer player and has no idea what those acronyms are, much less mean. Some of them, I dont even recognize.

Fair enough, let me rephrase.

It is possible to play how you want, however, some setups are by no means "useful", so if you want to be useful and be effective you have to play very specific setups.

SemiD4rkness · December 2015

This is not Skyrim, you can be whatever you want but in order to do well in pvp pve you gotta min max.

Cuyler · December 2015

I think the term "Hybrid Build" is used too often by average players as a an excuse to avoid learning more advanced strats. Hybrids are not bad builds, actually some of the best players in the game use them, the difference being....they know how to use them. The many average players, who claim to be hybrids and don't perform well, give them a bad rap.

The "tank" and "healer" roles are preferred to be hybrids. For example, it is often preferred in most dungeons to have a tank/dps and/or healer/dps and/or a heal/tank. The idea is to do the minimum amount of tanking or healing needed to complete without deaths while adding dps to the group.

With that said, hybrids are not preferred for the "dps" role. If claiming to be a dps, then pure, raw, highest dps is preferred.

It's best to make a comparison. Let's say you have a tank/dps in group and that player pulls 12k dps while performing all the necessary tanking responsibilities. Then you have a player claiming to fill the "dps" role, with a hybrid build, that only pulls 10k dps because well, they a hybrid. You now have a tank pulling more dps than a "dps", which is baaad. That "dps" is being carried. Healers, comparatively.....if a "dps" in your group is doing more heals than you, let's say like a NB dps using sap essence or siphoning strikes. Then that's also baaad.

Point is, whatever role you say your filling for the group, tank, healer or dps.....make sure you're performing better in that role than the group members not assigned to that role.

tl;dr
if a player claims to fill the "dps" role in the group, hybrids are not the way to go. A "dps" should focus on fotm builds or a pure build and put out the highest dps they can. Leave the "hybrid builds" to the tanks and healers.

mr_wazzabi · December 2015

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

I just logged off to share this with the forum. Discussion in guild chat today was about whether you had to play one of the video game archetypes such as "Tank," "DPS," and "Healer." In the chat discussion, people were saying that players really needed to "pick one" of the archetypes, or be ready not be selected by PUGs (pick-up groups) - a sentiment which has been expressed on this forum before.

So I shared my build (for that character) and immediately was told it was "wrong." Nightblade, I was told, "should be" using a bow or DW, and two-handed weapons for DPS. 2H was a must. Using anything else is "wrong." I was next referred to Tamriel Foundry and Deltia's to "L2P." I'm not overly sensitive and I do understand the general point: right now, some skill lines are more efficient than others. But what really made me think was what followed. I'm going to generally sum up chat and if I'm quoting you (I don't know who the speaker was on this forum or if she hangs out here at all) feel free to correct me:

Your build doesn't just serve you, it serves your group. So, yes, you should build your character with some skills that will be most useful to a group. You can say, "I'm just going to PvE," but if you want someone to run an Undaunted dungeon (to finish a zone) with you, then you'll be a liability. If they ask for a DPS, don't say you're a DPS unless you really are a DPS (e.g. using 2H).

ESO is not single player game. PvP requires you to coordinate your attacks, defenses, and heals with others. By picking a standard build, you're more likely to find people you can work with. "Off-the-map" builds (their phrase, not mine) make other people work harder and are generally not appreciated.

So, yes, even if you want to be a DPS, choose the two-handed skill tree whether you want to or not. You never know when you might want to start PvPing.

I'm genuinely think curious if people feel ESO has been designed this way - and that it should have been designed this way. Sure, other TES titles (not Skyrim, of course) had classes, but they weren't MMOs. Many MMOs and many solo games now, are build around this trilogy of archetypes.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Just the way it needs to be? I'm genuinely curious about how other players feel about this.

Thanks.

It may have been designed with more freedom in mind, but the game's best players always figure out "the best" way to play. In order to keep content challenging, the devs must keep the difficulty high enough for these players to stay challenged, so using a build that strays too far from the "META BUILD" will get you killed in both dungeons and pvp.

Using a heavy armour sorc with 2 handed and resto staff will get you killed.

gbsteve · December 2015

I play how I want within reason. I've always enjoyed building/running ranger type characters that rely on bows and DW. So far my build has worked for me but with some shortfalls. I've got max stamina but low hp. I need to do ranged to stay out of the mix, observe AOE and dodge roll. I chug health potions like crazy. The damage is good (3500 when upscaled from V3 to V16....and I'm grasping the animation canceling now), but I'm sure it could be better.

Problem is, I don't want to melee with everyone else....I like ranger. So this is what I do. It works in dungeons with a decent group but I don't mess with PvP at all.

My next build is DK, and I'm just letting it progress naturally based on the style I want. I know very little about DK....is it a tank? DPS? I don't know. But I'm going to build something I like and see if it works. I figure I'll dungeon dive and consider recommendations there if they're reasonable.

I think I've been at MMO's long enough to understand the balance between being a boring cookie cutter and useless snowflake.

AlnilamE · December 2015

Lysette wrote: »

Ok, thank you for clarification, Heindrich, then I'll follow my path and do what I feel comfortable with, I am not that interested into this kind of endgame content.

Edit:

As a side note to this - I see no social competence in something, what excepts only the elite players into a group. It would be social competent, if they could deal with the diversity of characters, to just accept a certain kind of top players into a group, is elitist, that is not social competent.

I think there are two sides to this. A lot of people who run pledges in particular may have limited time to play, and they want to do the pledges in as short a time as possible. If they get into a group where two of the players are not familiar with the dungeon, should they suck it up and stay up way past their bedtime with no guarantee that they will get a gold key at the end? Or should they leave the group (or remove the player, if they were lead)?

I think being considerate of other players and their expectations needs to happen on both sides.

I have no issues taking people through vet dungeons they are not familiar with. But that's more easily done when you know it ahead of time.

Though I've been known to spend my afternoon in vet Darkshade because our second DPS didn't have any AoE and then our healer who brought that DPS in to begin with left and then we got a friend to come in and help us, and decided to just show said DPS around the dungeon because they had never been there before.

But that's not something I can do every day.

I think as long as you are with people you know and who know how you play, anything goes. In my guild, I can pretty much tell how long a dungeon run is going to be based on who joins the group. And long runs are fine in that case becasue we know we will have fun while we are trying to master mechanics and such. But again, that's going in with open eyes.

I do like trying out different things with my characters, and I don't have builds that are necessarily optimized. I think different things work out, but when it comes to group content, your individual skills need to mesh with the rest of the group, and that's why I try to have all my class skills unlocked on my characters, even if I don't use them most of the time.

Alucardo · December 2015

Artjuh90 wrote: »

@alcuardo in the PvE disscussion about alliance skills you say a stamina char doesn't need vigor. kinda disproved your there with this one here

@Artjuh90 technically you don't. Many PVErs live without it. It's definitely a nice to have skill, though. No argument there. I solo or small group pvp without Templars, so it's kinda important for me to have. In PVE you can get away without having it.

driosketch · December 2015

You can play whatever you want if you play without a group. I've taken my unarmed fighter to tier one in PVP more than once. If I made him my primary pvp character, I could get him into the top 10% of the leader boards in AS NA.

That doesn't mean it would be as easy to do as with my main. Some builds are more efficient than others, but most can be played competitively if you put the effort in to become proficient with them.

However, if you play with a formal group, you already agree to abide some level of conformity. My advice to you, make the accommodations your group asks of you, find a more laid back or complimentary group, or just don't group and play however you feel like.

Artjuh90 · December 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

@alcuardo in the PvE disscussion about alliance skills you say a stamina char doesn't need vigor. kinda disproved your there with this one here

@Artjuh90 technically you don't. Many PVErs live without it. It's definitely a nice to have skill, though. No argument there. I solo or small group pvp without Templars, so it's kinda important for me to have. In PVE you can get away without having it.

dont get me wrong i completed the whole storyline of cadwell and crag on my NB without vigor. but in harder content like vMSA or solo IC it's kinda needed. so in a way builds do matter but that's more late game. what i usally do on my characters is max out every skill of the skil lines i want to complete. for example a stam user will have the 4 weapon skills which fit them (sword and shield, 2h, dual wield and bow) + the class skills. i read up on the morphs and decide what my character needs. this way if i want to change my role later in the game from tank to dps i can still do this. and i do advise to level all the armor skill lines to 50 at the first when you are going to lvl 50. so if you decide to switch role you already have acces to all the passives. just to make life easier

RizaHawkeye · December 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

You can play how you want if you want to be shitttty, if you want to do smth fancy to fotm or gtfo

@Alcast I know you mean well, but.. well.. Since the OP is obviously a newer player and has no idea what those acronyms are, much less mean. Some of them, I dont even recognize.

New is a relative term.

I've been playing since June of 2015. I don't feel new, but then I haven't run a lot of groups.

One thing is for certain: I know what GTFO means. Really, @Alcast?

Okay, for reference, here's the build that caused the grief mentioned in my original post:

Race: Implerial
Class: Templar
Skill Lines: Dual wielding & sword and shied
Level: 36

AP distribution: Magic = 0, Health = 10, Stamina = 25

MaxMagic = 6320
MaxHealth = 9390
MaxStamina = 10676

Magic Recovery = 384
Health Recovery = 267
Stamina Recovery = 582

Spell Damage = 656
Spell Crit = 12.5%

Weapon Damage = 852
Weapon Crit = 24% (S&S), 26.5% (DW)

These are base, unbuffed numbers.

This is what I have on my skill bars right now:

S&S: Pierce Armor, Reflective Light, Biting Jabs, Shield Charge, Restoring Aura. Ult is Empowering Sweeps.
DW: Rending Slashes, Biting Jabs, Steel Tornado, Backlash, Blade Cloak. Ult is Remembrance.

Armor (Level 34): 4/3 Heavy/Light (because I like the way it looks.).

Sets: 5 Nights Silence, 4 Ashen Grip.

I understand that this is probably a better PvE build than PvP. In Shadowfen, it enabled me solo three of the six group bosses (I couldn't get Captain Bones, Nen Ria, and that damn Rendrasa solo). At the time I ran those groups, I was using level 24 armor and buffs, though (I was level 29-33-ish).

But enough of that.

So, having read all the posts, I'm left with the following question:

If I don't want to run PUGs (pick up groups such as the group finder group or zone chat), because I don't want to deal with the GTFO attitude, then what is my alternative? And really, if the game means that much to you (not judging, just saying), then I don't want to slow you down. I'd rather play with people who want to have fun in a relaxed way.

Is it really just guilds? Because every guild I've joined is dead now.

RizaHawkeye · December 2015

gbsteve wrote: »

I play how I want within reason. I've always enjoyed building/running ranger type characters that rely on bows and DW. So far my build has worked for me but with some shortfalls. I've got max stamina but low hp. I need to do ranged to stay out of the mix, observe AOE and dodge roll. I chug health potions like crazy. The damage is good (3500 when upscaled from V3 to V16....and I'm grasping the animation canceling now), but I'm sure it could be better.

Problem is, I don't want to melee with everyone else....I like ranger. So this is what I do. It works in dungeons with a decent group but I don't mess with PvP at all.

My next build is DK, and I'm just letting it progress naturally based on the style I want. I know very little about DK....is it a tank? DPS? I don't know. But I'm going to build something I like and see if it works. I figure I'll dungeon dive and consider recommendations there if they're reasonable.

I think I've been at MMO's long enough to understand the balance between being a boring cookie cutter and useless snowflake.

I really like this idea. That's kind of how I ended up with my character, which is a rebuild of a previous character I was using.

I haven't been in MMOs that long, so I'm just going off the skill descriptions and my limited experience.

Thanks for posting this.

Everyone else: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I've tried to give everyone who was helpful some positive feedback (e.g. insightful, awesome). It's been helpful.

Lenikus · December 2015

People confound 2 things.

One thing is:
Playing the game the way you want to.
You can do that. no prob.

Another thing is:
Playing in a optimal and/or competitive way.
People tend to believe this is 'how you should play'. and you should, IF you intend on doing 'advanced' stuff.

Lightninvash · December 2015

no you cant play any class just like

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Darlgon · December 2015

First off.. where is my LOL button?

Lightninvash wrote: »

no you cant play any class just like

Just. Awesome..

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

New is a relative term. I've been playing since June of 2015. I don't feel new, but then I haven't run a lot of groups.

Yes, you are a like 6-month old child, sorry,.. some of us have been here since before December 2013, when I got into Beta on this game.. And, like me, some have been playing MMOs for 10 or more years. Yes, you are NEW...

Now.. sorry. I cant let this pass..

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

So I shared my build (for that character) and immediately was told it was "wrong." Nightblade, I was told, "should be" using a bow or DW, and two-handed weapons for DPS. 2H was a must. Using anything else is "wrong."

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Okay, for reference, here's the build that caused the grief mentioned in my original post:

Race: Imperial
Class: Templar
Skill Lines: Dual wielding & sword and shied
Level: 36

AP distribution: Magic = 0, Health = 10, Stamina = 25

MaxMagic = 6320
MaxHealth = 9390
MaxStamina = 10676

Magic Recovery = 384
Health Recovery = 267
Stamina Recovery = 582

Spell Damage = 656
Spell Crit = 12.5%

Weapon Damage = 852
Weapon Crit = 24% (S&S), 26.5% (DW)

These are base, unbuffed numbers.

This is what I have on my skill bars right now:

S&S: Pierce Armor, Reflective Light, Biting Jabs, Shield Charge, Restoring Aura. Ult is Empowering Sweeps.
DW: Rending Slashes, Biting Jabs, Steel Tornado, Backlash, Blade Cloak. Ult is Remembrance.

Armor (Level 34): 4/3 Heavy/Light (because I like the way it looks.).

Sets: 5 Nights Silence, 4 Ashen Grip.

I understand that this is probably a better PvE build than PvP. In Shadowfen, it enabled me solo three of the six group bosses (I couldn't get Captain Bones, Nen Ria, and that damn Rendrasa solo). At the time I ran those groups, I was using level 24 armor and buffs, though (I was level 29-33-ish).

But enough of that.

Not to sound demeaning.. but...

Which is it? Are you a Nightblade or a Templar?
If you are a Stamina Templar (which is a DPS, commonly called a Stamplar) judging by your specs, why do you have all those class skills on your bar that use magicka? They are about as useful as a snowball in a furnace vs the DPS your build suggest you are supposed to be doing.
You are also level 36? Umm.. that kinda elitist attitude usually does not show up until VR levels, when your character is more defined. Were you somewhere where you were autoleveled to VR16 and could not keep up with the group? Like an undaunted dungeon? Frankly. you dont have the skill points avail to keep up with a VR16, much less a lack of Champ Points..

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

So, having read all the posts, I'm left with the following question:

If I don't want to run PUGs (pick up groups such as the group finder group or zone chat), because I don't want to deal with the GTFO attitude, then what is my alternative? And really, if the game means that much to you (not judging, just saying), then I don't want to slow you down. I'd rather play with people who want to have fun in a relaxed way.

Is it really just guilds? Because every guild I've joined is dead now.

Yes. pretty much.. Find a guild, you get FIVE whole slots for guilds. Dont stick to just one.. but you may want to save one for a trade guild, to sell stuff, as you wont get much advice there. If one goes dead, especially if the guild leader fails to show up inside of two-three weeks, without notice, its time to drop that guild and ask other people if they have a good, active guild. You really need to get in groups with people who have a vested interest in you, your progression in understanding the game and in completing dungeons. PUG groups and the group finder only cater to ones who want to get thru a dungeon. VERY RARE is the PUG group who are willing to help newer players. IF you should happen to get in one, ask to join their guild immediately.

RizaHawkeye · December 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

First off.. where is my LOL button?

Lightninvash wrote: »

no you cant play any class just like

Just. Awesome..

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

New is a relative term. I've been playing since June of 2015. I don't feel new, but then I haven't run a lot of groups.

Yes, you are a like 6-month old child, sorry,.. some of us have been here since before December 2013, when I got into Beta on this game.. And, like me, some have been playing MMOs for 10 or more years. Yes, you are NEW...

Now.. sorry. I cant let this pass..

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

So I shared my build (for that character) and immediately was told it was "wrong." Nightblade, I was told, "should be" using a bow or DW, and two-handed weapons for DPS. 2H was a must. Using anything else is "wrong."

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Okay, for reference, here's the build that caused the grief mentioned in my original post:

Race: Imperial
Class: Templar
Skill Lines: Dual wielding & sword and shied
Level: 36

AP distribution: Magic = 0, Health = 10, Stamina = 25

MaxMagic = 6320
MaxHealth = 9390
MaxStamina = 10676

Magic Recovery = 384
Health Recovery = 267
Stamina Recovery = 582

Spell Damage = 656
Spell Crit = 12.5%

Weapon Damage = 852
Weapon Crit = 24% (S&S), 26.5% (DW)

These are base, unbuffed numbers.

This is what I have on my skill bars right now:

S&S: Pierce Armor, Reflective Light, Biting Jabs, Shield Charge, Restoring Aura. Ult is Empowering Sweeps.
DW: Rending Slashes, Biting Jabs, Steel Tornado, Backlash, Blade Cloak. Ult is Remembrance.

Armor (Level 34): 4/3 Heavy/Light (because I like the way it looks.).

Sets: 5 Nights Silence, 4 Ashen Grip.

I understand that this is probably a better PvE build than PvP. In Shadowfen, it enabled me solo three of the six group bosses (I couldn't get Captain Bones, Nen Ria, and that damn Rendrasa solo). At the time I ran those groups, I was using level 24 armor and buffs, though (I was level 29-33-ish).

But enough of that.

Not to sound demeaning.. but...

Which is it? Are you a Nightblade or a Templar?
If you are a Stamina Templar (which is a DPS, commonly called a Stamplar) judging by your specs, why do you have all those class skills on your bar that use magicka? They are about as useful as a snowball in a furnace vs the DPS your build suggest you are supposed to be doing.
You are also level 36? Umm.. that kinda elitist attitude usually does not show up until VR levels, when your character is more defined. Were you somewhere where you were autoleveled to VR16 and could not keep up with the group? Like an undaunted dungeon? Frankly. you dont have the skill points avail to keep up with a VR16, much less a lack of Champ Points..

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

So, having read all the posts, I'm left with the following question:

If I don't want to run PUGs (pick up groups such as the group finder group or zone chat), because I don't want to deal with the GTFO attitude, then what is my alternative? And really, if the game means that much to you (not judging, just saying), then I don't want to slow you down. I'd rather play with people who want to have fun in a relaxed way.

Is it really just guilds? Because every guild I've joined is dead now.

Yes. pretty much.. Find a guild, you get FIVE whole slots for guilds. Dont stick to just one.. but you may want to save one for a trade guild, to sell stuff, as you wont get much advice there. If one goes dead, especially if the guild leader fails to show up inside of two-three weeks, without notice, its time to drop that guild and ask other people if they have a good, active guild. You really need to get in groups with people who have a vested interest in you, your progression in understanding the game and in completing dungeons. PUG groups and the group finder only cater to ones who want to get thru a dungeon. VERY RARE is the PUG group who are willing to help newer players. IF you should happen to get in one, ask to join their guild immediately.

Thanks for posting this. I'm not sure I understand everything you're saying. For example, you say: "You are also level 36? Umm.. that kinda elitist attitude usually does not show up until VR levels, when your character is more defined." What about my attitude is elitist? I feel I've been genuinely polite.

The magicka skills I have (Reflective Light, Restoring Aura, Backlash) either deal out damage at a low magicka cost or heal. As I mentioned, I've been running PvE solo, so the heals are there just to keep me going if no one is around to help. I haven't put anything into magicka and TBH, I almost never run out in a fight. I'm really not bragging, I'm just saying this is my experience. So I might do this for a boss fight:

Blade Cloak, Backlash, Rending Slashes, Biting Jabs, Light Attack, Biting Jabs, Light Attack, Backlash, Rending Slashes, Biting Jabs, Light Attack. Drop in Remembrance if I need heals and for AoE I'll add Steel Tornado to the mix, which in my experience does a generous amount of damage.

For the S&S, I run Shield Charge (if I think it will be useful), Pierce Armor if I'm close enough and if not Reflective Light. The I run a Biting Jabs, light attack, biting jabs, reflective light, light attack, pierce armor, biting jabs and so on.

In all seriousness, I run out of stamina long before I run out of magicka.

Selique · December 2015

What I have found in my time in ESO is that, if you know your skills inside and out, and you know how to play the style you want to play, regardless of build, and you have the appropriate gear setup, you can in effect play any kind of character you wish.

Will you be the top DPS, Tank, or Healer? Not unless that is your play style. Will you have fun and still be able to hold your own? For sure.

I used to run dungeons with a guy who played a Nightblade healer. He was excellent. We never wiped. Was he the top heals? No. Could someone out heal him as a Sorc or Templar? Yes. Did we wipe because of him? Never. Why? He knew his skills, his build, and how to play ESO.

I myself used to play a Mag/Stam hybrid NB in PvP, and I did pretty well. Was I the greatest? No. I wasn't trying to be. I had more fun than some of my friends, who stressed so hard that they didn't have "optimal" builds though. I currently play a mag/stam hybrid Templar tank. I do just fine in PvP and PvE. So, take that for what its worth.

Basically: Skill can trump cookie-cutter builds. Simple as that.

Cuyler · December 2015

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Thanks for posting this. I'm not sure I understand everything you're saying. For example, you say: "You are also level 36? Umm.. that kinda elitist attitude usually does not show up until VR levels, when your character is more defined." What about my attitude is elitist? I feel I've been genuinely polite.

I think he's saying at lvl 36 you won't regularly run into elitists in the group finder. he wasn't saying you were an elitist. You must have qued for a battle leveled instance where u were auto-leveled with some v16s.

srfrogg23 · December 2015

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

First off.. where is my LOL button?

Lightninvash wrote: »

no you cant play any class just like

Just. Awesome..

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

New is a relative term. I've been playing since June of 2015. I don't feel new, but then I haven't run a lot of groups.

Yes, you are a like 6-month old child, sorry,.. some of us have been here since before December 2013, when I got into Beta on this game.. And, like me, some have been playing MMOs for 10 or more years. Yes, you are NEW...

Now.. sorry. I cant let this pass..

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

So I shared my build (for that character) and immediately was told it was "wrong." Nightblade, I was told, "should be" using a bow or DW, and two-handed weapons for DPS. 2H was a must. Using anything else is "wrong."

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Okay, for reference, here's the build that caused the grief mentioned in my original post:

Race: Imperial
Class: Templar
Skill Lines: Dual wielding & sword and shied
Level: 36

AP distribution: Magic = 0, Health = 10, Stamina = 25

MaxMagic = 6320
MaxHealth = 9390
MaxStamina = 10676

Magic Recovery = 384
Health Recovery = 267
Stamina Recovery = 582

Spell Damage = 656
Spell Crit = 12.5%

Weapon Damage = 852
Weapon Crit = 24% (S&S), 26.5% (DW)

These are base, unbuffed numbers.

This is what I have on my skill bars right now:

S&S: Pierce Armor, Reflective Light, Biting Jabs, Shield Charge, Restoring Aura. Ult is Empowering Sweeps.
DW: Rending Slashes, Biting Jabs, Steel Tornado, Backlash, Blade Cloak. Ult is Remembrance.

Armor (Level 34): 4/3 Heavy/Light (because I like the way it looks.).

Sets: 5 Nights Silence, 4 Ashen Grip.

I understand that this is probably a better PvE build than PvP. In Shadowfen, it enabled me solo three of the six group bosses (I couldn't get Captain Bones, Nen Ria, and that damn Rendrasa solo). At the time I ran those groups, I was using level 24 armor and buffs, though (I was level 29-33-ish).

But enough of that.

Not to sound demeaning.. but...

Which is it? Are you a Nightblade or a Templar?
If you are a Stamina Templar (which is a DPS, commonly called a Stamplar) judging by your specs, why do you have all those class skills on your bar that use magicka? They are about as useful as a snowball in a furnace vs the DPS your build suggest you are supposed to be doing.
You are also level 36? Umm.. that kinda elitist attitude usually does not show up until VR levels, when your character is more defined. Were you somewhere where you were autoleveled to VR16 and could not keep up with the group? Like an undaunted dungeon? Frankly. you dont have the skill points avail to keep up with a VR16, much less a lack of Champ Points..

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

So, having read all the posts, I'm left with the following question:

If I don't want to run PUGs (pick up groups such as the group finder group or zone chat), because I don't want to deal with the GTFO attitude, then what is my alternative? And really, if the game means that much to you (not judging, just saying), then I don't want to slow you down. I'd rather play with people who want to have fun in a relaxed way.

Is it really just guilds? Because every guild I've joined is dead now.

Yes. pretty much.. Find a guild, you get FIVE whole slots for guilds. Dont stick to just one.. but you may want to save one for a trade guild, to sell stuff, as you wont get much advice there. If one goes dead, especially if the guild leader fails to show up inside of two-three weeks, without notice, its time to drop that guild and ask other people if they have a good, active guild. You really need to get in groups with people who have a vested interest in you, your progression in understanding the game and in completing dungeons. PUG groups and the group finder only cater to ones who want to get thru a dungeon. VERY RARE is the PUG group who are willing to help newer players. IF you should happen to get in one, ask to join their guild immediately.

Thanks for posting this. I'm not sure I understand everything you're saying. For example, you say: "You are also level 36? Umm.. that kinda elitist attitude usually does not show up until VR levels, when your character is more defined." What about my attitude is elitist? I feel I've been genuinely polite.

The magicka skills I have (Reflective Light, Restoring Aura, Backlash) either deal out damage at a low magicka cost or heal. As I mentioned, I've been running PvE solo, so the heals are there just to keep me going if no one is around to help. I haven't put anything into magicka and TBH, I almost never run out in a fight. I'm really not bragging, I'm just saying this is my experience. So I might do this for a boss fight:

Blade Cloak, Backlash, Rending Slashes, Biting Jabs, Light Attack, Biting Jabs, Light Attack, Backlash, Rending Slashes, Biting Jabs, Light Attack. Drop in Remembrance if I need heals and for AoE I'll add Steel Tornado to the mix, which in my experience does a generous amount of damage.

For the S&S, I run Shield Charge (if I think it will be useful), Pierce Armor if I'm close enough and if not Reflective Light. The I run a Biting Jabs, light attack, biting jabs, reflective light, light attack, pierce armor, biting jabs and so on.

In all seriousness, I run out of stamina long before I run out of magicka.

They're not saying your attitude is elitist Riza, they're talking about the people you're referencing in your original post. The people saying you have to play a specific class a specific way are being "elitist" (because pedantic doesn't apply to something without a written set of official rules from the devs).

Just my 2 cents on the magicka abilities in a stamina build thing too:

It's not a bad thing depending on what you're using. Having stamina based dps with magicka based utilities like roots, snares, stuns, and other cc abilities is a nice way to make sure you're not using up all of your stamina to perform those functions. It frees up your stamina for spamming the harder hitting dps abilities. If those magicka abilities happen to do some damage on top of helping you to control the flow of the battle, all the better. I just wouldn't try to claim that the magicka based abilities are included with the intention of out damaging your stamina based attacks in a stamina build, except for maybe the extremely situational "execute" abilities.

altemriel · December 2015

Cuyler wrote: »

I think the term "Hybrid Build" is used too often by average players as a an excuse to avoid learning more advanced strats. Hybrids are not bad builds, actually some of the best players in the game use them, the difference being....they know how to use them. The many average players, who claim to be hybrids and don't perform well, give them a bad rap.

The "tank" and "healer" roles are preferred to be hybrids. For example, it is often preferred in most dungeons to have a tank/dps and/or healer/dps and/or a heal/tank. The idea is to do the minimum amount of tanking or healing needed to complete without deaths while adding dps to the group.

With that said, hybrids are not preferred for the "dps" role. If claiming to be a dps, then pure, raw, highest dps is preferred.

It's best to make a comparison. Let's say you have a tank/dps in group and that player pulls 12k dps while performing all the necessary tanking responsibilities. Then you have a player claiming to fill the "dps" role, with a hybrid build, that only pulls 10k dps because well, they a hybrid. You now have a tank pulling more dps than a "dps", which is baaad. That "dps" is being carried. Healers, comparatively.....if a "dps" in your group is doing more heals than you, let's say like a NB dps using sap essence or siphoning strikes. Then that's also baaad.

Point is, whatever role you say your filling for the group, tank, healer or dps.....make sure you're performing better in that role than the group members not assigned to that role.

tl;dr
if a player claims to fill the "dps" role in the group, hybrids are not the way to go. A "dps" should focus on fotm builds or a pure build and put out the highest dps they can. Leave the "hybrid builds" to the tanks and healers.

@Cuyler
I can tell you from my own example, that you are damn right with your first paragraph - I was like that before. I did not know anything about builds nor sets nor roles and I was just playing "as it goes" and tried to do what I could, I put attribute points into all 3 (stam, health, mag) and my skill build was also "just random" with no logic or no combos or no intended buff skills.
Then I once found the term "hybrid build" and I was happy that I found a category, that fit to me, but there was no knowledge behing me, just that I had a build which was stam/mag/health, but I did not know how to play or I did not know the "tricks" how to play well or how to maximize my dps or so on..

Then I had a very interresting chat with one of my very experienced guildmates one day at teamspeak and he completelly opened my eyes in terms of focusing on just one attribute (because if I spread it on all 3, then I do not get max of it as dps DK). Also he adviced me a good set combination and has crafted it for me (Hunding`s range and Nightmother`s gaze + ravager jewelry), I also have changed my skills a couple of times since then, I found the one that fits me the most.
First I tried this build, then I learned that that build is heavily outdated, so I changed to Alcast`s Bullseye burst build, where you primary need to know how to do animation cancelling, it was great, but I did not learn animation cancelling much yet, so I recently changed to Syphers stam DK build and I like it much more.
My dps doubled, I use purposely combos of skills, I use buffs, I use blue or purple food that fit increase my health and stamina.

@RizaHawkeye I know that comments of some people here may sound harsh, but the truth is, that as in every activity (let say some sport as an example) there are ways and styles that are proven to be most useful, that bring the most performance and effectivity in their results. Which of course does not mean that some people can not invent new even better styles or ways of doing them. The same in playing ESO - there are ways (builds, focusing on one class, on dps or on healing or on tanking) that have been proven to be the most effective - talking especially about group play and PVP play. Of course you can "invent" new ways of playing. Depends on what you want, if you enjoy being inovative and trying new ways, do it. but a good advice is a good advice. If you want to get maximum of your character, I would definitelly advice you to have a chat with some friendly and experienced players, or do some google research about that.

And now to elitist, "PRO" players, I met some of these guys in the game and although I somehow also understand their point (they are elite, they want to level up fast, do the dungeon fast, they hate rookies who are just "wasting their time"), I hate this kind of attitude too. It is as if these people have forgotten the main reason why we play the game - to have fun, to relax and enjoy the game. These people somehow seem to take their PRO role, their PRO experience so serious, that they totally seem to forget that not everyone is so experienced as they feel they are and they threat rookies "as ***" - GTFO attitude. (I would not take the "GTFO" from @Alcast so personally

, if you would watch some of his videos, you would learn that he is a nice guy, but sometimes he like to swear too

(why not, I do it sometimes too

), but he has huge credit for creating his videos which for sure help a big part of the player community).

I once ran into one guy in a group dungeon, random group, zone chat, he was first very nervous when we had to wait 5 minuts for one player to be ready to do the dungeon, he went totally crazy about him. Then when he saw that we are rookies, he was shaming us all in the group chat and telling us to learn to play, then we ended up one person leaving the group because feeling really bad because of this "PRO" guy and then finally also that "PRO" guy left the group. The first thing I did is putting him to ignore list.
Second time I met a guy like that, also a random group for a dungeon, first just the "PRO" guy was saying that we are really bad players, we replied, ok, we are rookies, relax, enjoy the game, at the end of the dungeon we could not kill the final boss, we tried it more times, we did not have enought dps and also the healer was a rookie, the "PRO" guy left, saying that he has wasted enough time with our group...
Then there are other (I call them true elite players) players, who are also very experienced, but did not forget that earlier they also were rookies and are willing to help and advice the less experienced players.

RizaHawkeye · December 2015

srfrogg23 wrote: »

They're not saying your attitude is elitist Riza, they're talking about the people you're referencing in your original post. The people saying you have to play a specific class a specific way are being "elitist" (because pedantic doesn't apply to something without a written set of official rules from the devs).

Just my 2 cents on the magicka abilities in a stamina build thing too:

It's not a bad thing depending on what you're using. Having stamina based dps with magicka based utilities like roots, snares, stuns, and other cc abilities is a nice way to make sure you're not using up all of your stamina to perform those functions. It frees up your stamina for spamming the harder hitting dps abilities. If those magicka abilities happen to do some damage on top of helping you to control the flow of the battle, all the better. I just wouldn't try to claim that the magicka based abilities are included with the intention of out damaging your stamina based attacks in a stamina build, except for maybe the extremely situational "execute" abilities.

Okay, fair enough. It's not very clear from the context of the post, especially when combined with the reference that I'm a child and that I need to pick either a nightblade or a templar, because right now I don't have a build (is that the point)?

And, honestly @srfrogg23 , I'm not trying to "claim" that those skills are on the bar to "out damage" my stamina skills when my stamina skills are the high performers. In fact, I'm not claiming anything of that nature at all.

I'm simply explaining why I put those skills on my bar.

Let me try this again. The magicka skils are there to (1) heal or cleanse or (2) to add damage to supplement by stamina skills. Clearly, they're not going to outperform the leveled stamina skills. But the leveled stamina skills will eventually drain all my stamina. And without something on the bar to throw out at that moment, I'm stuck with light and heavy attacks until stam regens. Does that make sense?

Sure, I can add, say, another stamina skill to the bar and take out Reflective Light. What's the logical result? (1) I burn stamina faster on a skill that may not perform as well as Biting Jabs or Steel Tornado (for example). (2) I lose a ranged ability (reflective light allows me to hit multiple mobs at a distance). (3) In the event, I run out of stam, I'm stuck with light and heavy attacks (and no ability to block or roll dodge).

At higher levels, I might be able to add more stamina to my pool (adding Hundings Rage or something like that to the mix), but for now, this is my logic.

It may be flawed, I may be wrong. But I'm not claiming this is better than anything. Really.

RizaHawkeye · December 2015

altemriel wrote: »

@RizaHawkeye I know that comments of some people here may sound harsh, but the truth is, that as in every activity (let say some sport as an example) there are ways and styles that are proven to be most useful, that bring the most performance and effectivity in their results ...

... These people somehow seem to take their PRO role, their PRO experience so serious, that they totally seem to forget that not everyone is so experienced as they feel they are and they threat rookies "as ***" - GTFO attitude. (I would not take the "GTFO" from @Alcast so personally , if you would watch some of his videos, you would learn that he is a nice guy, but sometimes he like to swear too (why not, I do it sometimes too ), but he has huge credit for creating his videos which for sure help a big part of the player community) ...

I once ran into one guy in a group dungeon, random group, zone chat, he was first very nervous when we had to wait 5 minuts for one player to be ready to do the dungeon, he went totally crazy about him. Then when he saw that we are rookies, he was shaming us all in the group chat and telling us to learn to play, then we ended up one person leaving the group because feeling really bad because of this "PRO" guy and then finally also that "PRO" guy left the group. The first thing I did is putting him to ignore list.
...

Okay, again thanks for this.

As I said in my original post, I feel I have a fairly thick skin. I've tried to express my appreciation for the comments, even including Alcasts', by making sure everyone got positive feedback. I've not found the comments particularly harsh and I'm okay with being corrected. Really.

@Alcast is a nice guy (although I know nothing about him other than what he's posted in this thread)? Okay, I'll accept that. Profanity clearly doesn't bother me (as can be seen from my own posts). I will look for his videos because I really do want to learn.

No one has beat up on me to the point that I am upset. Really. My only comment on the harshness is if people want to dish it out, then they should be willing to accept it back. No one gets to be jerk just because they can be.

timidobserver · December 2015

Most of the game has been dumbed down to the point that you can get by running whatever random build you want everywhere excluding 4 places(vICP, vWGT, VMSA, and PVP.) That said, your group will most likely suffer and resent you if you are running a bad build.

The trick is to theorycraft and come up with a unique build that is actually good as opposed to coming up with a random bad build.

ajwest927 · December 2015

If you want to be efficient then the answer is no.