Can you really play any charcter you want?

RizaHawkeye

I just logged off to share this with the forum. Discussion in guild chat today was about whether you had to play one of the video game archetypes such as "Tank," "DPS," and "Healer." In the chat discussion, people were saying that players really needed to "pick one" of the archetypes, or be ready not be selected by PUGs (pick-up groups) - a sentiment which has been expressed on this forum before.

So I shared my build (for that character) and immediately was told it was "wrong." Nightblade, I was told, "should be" using a bow or DW, and two-handed weapons for DPS. 2H was a must. Using anything else is "wrong." I was next referred to Tamriel Foundry and Deltia's to "L2P." I'm not overly sensitive and I do understand the general point: right now, some skill lines are more efficient than others. But what really made me think was what followed. I'm going to generally sum up chat and if I'm quoting you (I don't know who the speaker was on this forum or if she hangs out here at all) feel free to correct me:

Your build doesn't just serve you, it serves your group. So, yes, you should build your character with some skills that will be most useful to a group. You can say, "I'm just going to PvE," but if you want someone to run an Undaunted dungeon (to finish a zone) with you, then you'll be a liability. If they ask for a DPS, don't say you're a DPS unless you really are a DPS (e.g. using 2H).

ESO is not single player game. PvP requires you to coordinate your attacks, defenses, and heals with others. By picking a standard build, you're more likely to find people you can work with. "Off-the-map" builds (their phrase, not mine) make other people work harder and are generally not appreciated.

So, yes, even if you want to be a DPS, choose the two-handed skill tree whether you want to or not. You never know when you might want to start PvPing.

I'm genuinely think curious if people feel ESO has been designed this way - and that it should have been designed this way. Sure, other TES titles (not Skyrim, of course) had classes, but they weren't MMOs. Many MMOs and many solo games now, are build around this trilogy of archetypes.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Just the way it needs to be? I'm genuinely curious about how other players feel about this.

Thanks.

Malmai

The problem is when people start playing this game they want to be all in one like ESO is advertised as "be whatever you want" yes you can be that for questing but when you do content with other people you need to set roles if not than the group is doomed and people start raging, losing patience and people leave...

Heindrich

I know casual players who play with in close knit groups, often built around real life relationships, and they basically just do their own thing at their own pace and play for fun. In this case the answer to your question is "yes".

But if you plan to be remotely competitive or play a role in a pug or guild group, then you should build your character to a reasonable level of effectiveness. You cannot and should not expect strangers to carry you in dungeons because you either do not want to or are unable to learn basic game mechanics.

My time is finite, when I run a undaunted dungeon, I don't want to spend 90mins wiping because one guy doesn't know what to do when I can do it in 20mins with an efficient team...

... Which leads me to another point. Don't lie about your abilities. There is nothing more annoying than a pug who vaguely claims he's done a dungeon "on a different character" and then it turns out he's totally clueless.

robkrush

Yes, if just questing or ERP'ing. No, if you want to be good.

RAGUNAnoOne

Officially yes you can play as you want unofficially no because of what you experienced... I have been given lectures because I am a NB healer and also because I focus on sustain vs strength...

ralonasan

For certain content you need to make that choice. If you enjoy playing any way you want I would make a character for just that. But if you want to be optimally effective in top tier content, I would also make a character or build in which you take a specified role.

The play anyway you want advert is really for anything that isn't considered "endgame" content.

Good luck.

Also, there's no need to follow online builds. If you read your skills and passives I'm sure you can make your own optimal build for tanking dps or healing. That's part of the fun!

Holycannoli

It's more about staying away from ineffective builds. If you want to be a hybrid magicka/health/stamina DK that uses a destruction staff you might not exactly be contributing much in a group.

WalkingLegacy

You can do whatever you, spec however you want, be whatever you want....


As long as it's within the meta

dsalter

unfortunatly that got taken away when some skills became redundant due to caps removal since now if your not stacking damage, your failing a majority of the game build wise so players will avoid you more.

on your lonesomes it's fine

WolffenBloodseeker

Holycannoli wrote: »

It's more about staying away from ineffective builds.

basically this, you can play the way you want, wear and use anything you want with any class and skill combos BUT if you are going to play in group (dungeons, trials or arena) you'll probably want to use an effective build to not force your group to rage quit and for you to not rage quit yourself for not being able to complete the content, i'm not talking about meta builds, i hate this kind of playstyle and stay the hell away from it myself but knowing your class and the skills/equips that work better for your prefered playstyle is always a good thing

Acrolas

Since everybody loves RL parallels...

You have a really limited skill set in the game, so your job opportunities are equally limited.

Some skew this to meaning that if you spam the same 1-5 keys over again correctly, you have skill.
No.
Skill is taking all of your available resources and making the one right choice for the right situation.

There is absolutely nothing skillful about this game. The moment you start talking builds, you're talking a numbers game, not skillfulness. It's putting together a fast food hamburger by corporate direction, not making a unique and challenging gourmet dinner with finesse and presentation.

So while I can appreciate some people getting dungeons down to a science because they do things a "right" way, I can also appreciate a cashier that can check me out in under two minutes. But really, it speaks to a comfortable repetition, not skill. If I have a group that isn't uptight, I won't mind if the dungeon takes longer. If I get a cashier who's friendly I honestly won't mind taking a bit longer.

You see, what some people forget is that you can't reduce some of the more enjoyable things to numbers. That's why we use things like stars and favorites and agrees. And even then you run into trouble - a favorite just isn't the same as a favorite AND a retweet. Some people apparently cannot enjoy things.


I do think there's also a deeper conditioning element to all this - older players are used to the limitation of an NES (two buttons), Genesis (3 button), or SNES (4 buttons). So they've surrendered themselves again to console limitations on a game that is not only monotonous because of it, is not the best possible experience given all the options the game actually gives you.

So in a way, L2P is really L2C (learn to console). And as a PC player, that's not easy because you're always aware of what you're giving up to fit a specific control configuration. And we lack viable alternatives like in Oblivion where you stacked a lot of effects into one spell. Maybe Spellcrafting would have helped. Maybe not.

Point is, don't let anyone tell you you're doing it wrong, because there's not a lot to work with to begin with and playing to numbers is not a good long-term strategy.

DaveMoeDee

Of course there is skill in the game. Put people out there with the same builds and they will not perform the same. Can we avoid black & white, all or nothing reasoning please?

Regarding play as you want -- obviously some skills work together better than others. In any RPG, you need to use some thought when building your character so that they can be effective. This is a separate issue from people who don't want to give you a chance, but understand that they don't want to waste an hour failing because of a teammate that can't pull their weight. They are playing the odds with limited information.

Imagine a group of 4 healers that can't finish content, but are confused because they all have great healer builds. Skill choices need to work together well, as do people in a team.

ESO does try to let classes play multiple roles, but that will always be limited because the classes have very different active and passive skills. Because of that, classes with prove themselves to be better at certain things and not so good at others.

DaveMoeDee

Acrolas wrote: »

I do think there's also a deeper conditioning element to all this - older players are used to the limitation of an NES (two buttons), Genesis (3 button), or SNES (4 buttons). So they've surrendered themselves again to console limitations on a game that is not only monotonous because of it, is not the best possible experience given all the options the game actually gives you.

So in a way, L2P is really L2C (learn to console). And as a PC player, that's not easy because you're always aware of what you're giving up to fit a specific control configuration. And we lack viable alternatives like in Oblivion where you stacked a lot of effects into one spell. Maybe Spellcrafting would have helped. Maybe not.

Was Oblivion combat good? I don't remember that being the case. Skyrim combat was a joke. I do remember that.

What I remember from both games was that I could sneak and snipe my way through everything. Especially when I was rolling with 100% chameleon in Oblivion.

GreySix

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

What I remember from both games was that I could sneak and snipe my way through everything. Especially when I was rolling with 100% chameleon in Oblivion.

Really liked that and saw it as a bonus.

LBC_Demon

I don't know the right answer for this. I am a NB Bow DD and a resto Healer. I wear medium armor with the stamina passives and I have some Magicka jewelry. I specialize in the siphoning class tree.

I also wear set armor with stamina passives and a few pieces of other set armor with magicka passives.

I have better stamina regen and the maximum stamina and magicka are about the same.

I can heal pretty well in groups. I am not sure how to quantify my damage but I think I am fine. So I feel I have found a way to be inbetween classes that works but I definitely made sure I stuck to the plan.

I didn't pick a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

Shadesofkin

You absolutely can play what you want, but you have to expect that there are consequences to what you choose to do. If you're a solo (purely) player, you will never really need to worry about the roles. If you're a group player, you should be tailoring your build to groups even if that means sacrificing what *you* think you should be able to do. If you're a Trial player (they are rare) you will have extremely tailored skills and abilities that you use.

Now, that being said, if you're serious about playing "your way" find a guild with really great players who will run with you and don't mind the gimping. Typically this just means they're not interested in speed runs so it's not that big a deal.

srfrogg23

I've healed, dps'd, and tanked as a NB. I've also done pure caster and pure stamina NB dps. All of these things I have done successfully, but only by using the proper equipment with proper stats in conjunction with the abilities that get the most use out of those stats. The class you play doesn't matter nearly as much as making sure you have the right stats and passives to make sure you're getting the most out of your chosen playstyle.

Is doing dps in plate armor with all stamina stats and a resto staff going to get you booted from a group? Yeah, probably.

Will playing a NB "blood sorcerer" with full light armor and magicka that does better than average damage while bringing some utility/additional healing to the group get you kicked from a PuG? Well, I've never been kicked for it and getting through both normal and vet dungeons doesn't seem to be an issue.

A lot of people get wrapped up in class descriptions and think "that's how it needs to be". As long as you gear properly for your role and maximize your stats for your preferred playstyle it doesn't matter what your class/race is. There's nothing in this game that will be "too hard" because you don't have a few race/class specific passives to go with a specific weapon/armor set.

QuebraRegra

PLAY THE META OR GTFO!

Just kidding, play whatever you want, and enjoy. Not everybody needs to WB, WB, WB.

I will say for group synergy in PVP I often respec for the "group" variant of some skills (see SWALLOW SOUL versus FUNNEL HEALTH, etc.).

Tryxus

PvE? Yes
RPing? Yes, if it fits with lore
PvP? Oblivion NO!

Shadesofkin

srfrogg23 wrote: »

A lot of people get wrapped up in class descriptions and think "that's how it needs to be". As long as you gear properly for your role and maximize your stats for your preferred playstyle it doesn't matter what your class/race is. There's nothing in this game that will be "too hard" because you don't have a few race/class specific passives to go with a specific weapon/armor set.

This is spot on.

Acrolas

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Put people out there with the same builds and they will not perform the same.

Mostly attributed to external, environmental conditions. If you put players with the same builds in the same environment, using the same equipment, given the same instructions, etc, they would quickly homogenize because you've eliminated every variable except pressing buttons in different orders. But even that would change. Put them in the same room and they would start mimicking each other's behavior until they were effectively the same player doing the same things for the same reasons.

We're so easily conditioned. Takes about 30 minutes.


Also funny how strongly people justify their limitations and lack of freedom. Like it doesn't bother them at all that the one ability they know they have, that would be best at this moment can't be used, because reasons. Feels like a screenplay moment.

JD2013

You can play whatever you want. They never promised it would work as a build.

Egonieser

To be honest, what your friend said is right. If you play with others - you have to contribute, if you don't - don't always expect them to carry you and make up for your weaknesses, especially if you have the option not to have them.

The "play as you want" mentality is only applicable if you solo and do your own things without relying on someone else or someone else relying on you.
Can't really recall a game where I didn't have to swap a skill/weapon or completely respect when doing certain runs/raids or PvP.

It all boils down to what content you wanna do. If all you do is solo and you feel your setup works fine for you - great, more power to you. But when teamwork comes into play, you have to play your part. It really is as simple as that.
Some people may call that elitism, but reality of it is - if a certain mechanic requires you to perform in a certain way - and you flat out refuse to do it out of principle - the problem is not others - it's you.

tangy.citrus

The problem is when people start pointing to deltia for advice. Mistake #1.

You can play all 3 roles on any of the three classes. In fact, its more preferred at the higher end of the game to be able to switch between healer and dps (if youre magicka) and tank and dps (if youre stamina) no matter what class you play. its easy af to do also.

Right now, the highest dps in game for stamina build is dw (main bar) and bow. 2h is good for pvp and it is necessary to level it up. If you have plans to do vma or pvp, you'll need to have 2her. Keep looking around on forums, on youtube videos and see what some people are doing for high dps and then see what you can do for that. And the guys in your guild are wrong, you can have huge dps with cp into tank skills or whatever. You just have to switch gear between the 2, you cant expect to get 20k with sword and shield

Danikat

In my experience it depends on who you're playing with. Some people will demand you conform to set roles, or even specific builds (right down to demanding exact skills, armor sets and attribute spreads), others don't care at all.

I actually made 2 Templars right when I first started because I knew I wanted one to mimic the hybrid blade/destruction/restoration khajiit build I've used in other TES games, and I also knew I was unlikely to be accepted into groups with that build, so I made another one to be a pure healer.

Then I joined a guild who have repeatedly invited me to join them for (low level) dungeons using "whatever you want" and assured me the weird hybrid was fine, before during and after the run. And we finished with minimal problems each time so I guess it was. It probably wasn't as fast as with a perfectly designed meta-build group copying someone else's videos step for step, but it was fun and that's the important thing.

laksikus

whoever lead you to deltias needs to l2p himself^^

newtinmpls

Heindrich wrote: »

if you plan to be remotely competitive or play a role in a pug or guild group, then you should build your character to a reasonable level of effectiveness. You cannot and should not expect strangers to carry you in dungeons because you either do not want to or are unable to learn basic game mechanics.

Good, nay, great point -

And remember that there are "alternative" ways to accomplish things like high DPS, high heals and so on - but if you are using an unusual build people will want some kind of reassurance that you can do what they need you to do.

Communication. If you play on PC it's possible to get screenshots of your various combat logs and so on. Or getting to know guild members and talking to them and doing public type stuff with them.

Soleya

I play a stamina night blade as dps or tank with gear swap. I've completed all pledges (except wgt and icp) as dps and most as tank. (Haven't tried all dungeons yet as tank). My build isn't the best dps or tank, but I have fun with it. When doing pledges with my friends, none of us are maxed builds, but we have a blast.

If you want to be number one on the leaderboards, you'll probably have to use a certain build. If you want to have fun, do what you enjoy.

Zanen

Your friends don't know what they're talking about.

2H isn't mandatory, in fact it isn't even desirable, on a stamblade for group PVE, and it hasn't been for a long while. It's good for PVP, mostly because of Rally.

Just make sure you're keeping brutality up somehow and weaving SA/LA properly.

That said you do need to build a well-optimized character if you want to group, it's a matter of courtesy.

pronkg

You can do whatever you want, doesnt mean whatever you choose is always the best option.

For pve as DD tank or heal you are always looking at the best options though there's choices to be made.

I've seen healers doing lots of dps as well
Tanks doing lots of dps aside tanking.

I run a non conventional sorc build without the meta willpower jewelry and torugs pact duals whatever Molag kena stuff and I'm able to finish top level content like vMA and vWGT/vICP easily. My dps/sustain is far above what people expect it to be at least.

I run a pvp build on my NB which is non conventional as well which is unique and effective as hell.

These things require unique and rare gear most people don't own, just saying there are other options than the boring meta builds.

Nonetheless I'm always aiming for the highest stats. Whether it be resources or dps. Eventually people will come down to certain numbers and expect you to be somewhat on par.

If you want to run a dungeon with 2 offensive healers and 2 offensive tanks you probably can, but that will never happen with random groups.

What I see happening is like people I run with DDs think their build is fun and good but in reality I do triple their damage and that's the reason we finish these dungeons. If you got 2 people with low dps it will take ages or you either won't make it. If you get 2 people with my dps you'll walk through it in 30 minutes or less. Lots of people just want the quickest method. I don't care that much, I rarely ask people to leave cause I like to help people out with stuff. I was in their position once and loved some help here and there.

Build what you want, but aim for the stars of you want to be competitive, that's how life works in general.

vyrusb23

Yes. You can play any character you want. *










* within the confines of the rules set up by ZoS.