Can you really play any charcter you want?

TheShadowScout · December 2015

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

I just logged off to share this with the forum. Discussion in guild chat today was about whether you had to play one of the video game archetypes such as "Tank," "DPS," and "Healer." In the chat discussion, people were saying that players really needed to "pick one" of the archetypes, or be ready not be selected by PUGs (pick-up groups) - a sentiment which has been expressed on this forum before.

Fu... uhm... forget PUGs. Those are mostly jerks, thanks the the anonymity not having to meet those other players ever again.

Go with friends who are willing to put in the extra effort to go with some less then super-effective builds, people who play for the fun, and not just want a speedrun to grab the boss loot...

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

So I shared my build (for that character) and immediately was told it was "wrong." Nightblade, I was told, "should be" using a bow or DW, and two-handed weapons for DPS. 2H was a must...

Fu... uhm... forget that too!
Yeah, 2H is the current FotM, everyone and their granny is spamming WB all over the game, and its also the most effective way to offset a stamina NBs weaknesses between the brawler shield and the rally selfheal.
You may be less "super-effective" if you go with any other setup, but... it is not ever "wrong".

But the general idea that your build has to serve the groups need instead of your enjoyment is one of the main reasons I don't like to do PUG group play. And yes, I do use quite a few "off the map" builds, and only one of my DPS-ish alts uses 2H (the stamina sorceror - a combination which most PUGs consider "wrong" from the get-go).
Call me an uncorrigable individualistic if you like, but I firmly believbe that the community is there to serve the needs of the individual, and not go for the "communist" view that the individual has to give up all their individual desires to serve the community. We are humans, not ants, not borg drones, not zombies serving a necromancer, but humans. Individuals who may at time come together for shorter or longer periods for a common goal.

As for design, I consider it a design flaw that 2H is a bit OP at the moment, it has all the good stuff - a AoE shielding strike, a finisher, a spammable high-damage CC attack, a gap closer, a selfheal... makes me wish they would do a little rebalancing, then suddenly all the FotM criers would change their tune...

ZioGio · December 2015

In my humble opinion, I think that if a player is planning on grouping, then focusing on one of the three archetypes will make things easier and give them some direction. That said, the build you come up for that archetype does allow for a certain amount of flexibility.

Remember that this is a game and should be about your fun as well as theirs. If you don't like using a two-handed weapon, then are you going to continue playing?

If I was to mentor a new player, I'd say picking the combination of skills and passives that compliment each other and that fit their preferred play style will make them more effective in groups and make the game more fun overall.

If the player gets to the point where they want to min/max, then there are builds out there that have been number crunched for them to try out.

Darlgon · December 2015

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

<Well stated observation>

Frankly my dear, ESO is what you make of it:

1 For some, its a solo game. You really dont need a group, heck, or even a guild, until you get to Craglorn. The game claims, and with so much solo content, proves to be, build how you want.
2. For some, its all about being helpful to the group. (#See 3 below.) personal style and builds are good sometimes, but the hardest, end-game content needs the trinity.. sometimes.. I also hear of people speed running thru Undaunted dungeons with all 4 DPS too. Sometimes, your special snowflake build, like my VR16 hybrid healer build is enough and can make or break the group. However, (See 3).. some people will tell you that your build does not match their standards. Unless your group fails repeatedly, and YOU feel its your fault.. tell them to go find a corner, they need some stress relief.
3. For a large part of those who are lef still playing the gamet, they feel they or some elitist know-it-all streamer has the magic bullet for everything. That ONLY those with x build by some idiot who plays lets others watch over his shoulder as he plays his 8th VR16 knows how to play the game.. (BTW, some of them are less competent because they got lazy and have no real idea how to do anything but kill other players.) THOSE ELITIST SCUM, can indeed ruin your fun and will tell you how to do everything. Frankly, sometimes, they are right. Mostly tho, just tell them "Welcome to my ignore list." You may not be able to to a WGT run in 10 min, but, you may not want to either.

RizaHawkeye · December 2015

So I got off work tonight, made myself a cup of tea, and then read through this entire thread. I want to thank everyone who took the time to post a reply, particularly if they took the time to genuinely express how they feel about this.

I understand both sides of the issue better now. I can better understand the person who, like @Heindrich, doesn't want a dungeon run slowed to a crawl by someone who is still experimenting with the both a build and the overall game, or is (worse) trying to pretend to be something they're not. On the other hand, I'm still hopeful I can twist around the ESO character builds like a cat with ball of string.

I'm still hopeful I can avoid changing my build to someone else's expectations, but still be able to complete the content of the game. Maybe in a later build, I'll make something more "mainstream."

Or maybe Zeni will change up all the skills again and the lottery of buffs and nerfs will result in a win for me.

Again, thanks everyone.

RizaHawkeye · December 2015

Shadesofkin wrote: »

... Now, that being said, if you're serious about playing "your way" find a guild with really great players who will run with you and don't mind the gimping. Typically this just means they're not interested in speed runs so it's not that big a deal.

Sounds intriguing. Where does one find such a thing?

Forestd16b14_ESO · December 2015

I play how I want who I always have be ESO another MMO or even a past TES game. Warrior Tank. Clad in the finest heavy armor Carrier the mightiest of greatswords.

Merry · December 2015

What is funny to me is that people often brag about how good eso is and use the "play any way you want" thing as one of its great things. Then when you get into it, they do a flip and say what people are saying in this thread. /shrug...

M

Sausage · December 2015

Add more weapons and integrate sub-classes into gears. That should do it.

Robo_Hobo · December 2015

It's general courtesy to try and help your group, and not expect them to carry you through a dungeon while you don't contribute to the overall success of the team. If you're with friends you have more leniency in this regard, if you're just doing the group things to have a good time all around with them and not really caring about the competitive side of things, go ahead with whatever you want. With strangers though, going in heavily unprepared is like...purposefully spilling a drink on a stranger's new shirt. Some might not care what their clothes look like and ignore it, but others could well take offence to it and they aren't completely in the wrong to do so. How they go about it just depends on their personality.

I'm not one for random groups for this very reason; I don't care about efficiency, I'm only in it for fun and exploration, and as such I'd never join a random group of people I don't know because I know I'd hold them down and only annoy them, while likewise they'd annoy me with their efficiency and speedy attitudes. To each their own, it's better for both of us if we don't try to force ourselves into a situation we're bound to not enjoy.

Should it be this way? I don't know, it's just a truth of life that people harbour different goals, enjoy things differently, and like to go about them in different ways and are bound to contradict with another's perspective of such, but is any one way more right than the other? It just depends on what's most common that determines the etiquette to follow and in an MMO structure efficiency tends to be said etiquette.

Shadesofkin · December 2015

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

... Now, that being said, if you're serious about playing "your way" find a guild with really great players who will run with you and don't mind the gimping. Typically this just means they're not interested in speed runs so it's not that big a deal.

Sounds intriguing. Where does one find such a thing?

I belong to one such guild, Sheogorath's Mortals. While we have "core group runs" where we are all optimized, none of us who do all the content are prejudiced against less optimized builds if the person is genuinely giving it their all and accepting advice on what they should do. TS is a must (even if you can't talk, just so you can listen), but otherwise we're happy to have any eager and willing players involved.

DaveMoeDee · December 2015

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I've healed, dps'd, and tanked as a NB. I've also done pure caster and pure stamina NB dps. All of these things I have done successfully, but only by using the proper equipment with proper stats in conjunction with the abilities that get the most use out of those stats. The class you play doesn't matter nearly as much as making sure you have the right stats and passives to make sure you're getting the most out of your chosen playstyle.

Is doing dps in plate armor with all stamina stats and a resto staff going to get you booted from a group? Yeah, probably.

Will playing a NB "blood sorcerer" with full light armor and magicka that does better than average damage while bringing some utility/additional healing to the group get you kicked from a PuG? Well, I've never been kicked for it and getting through both normal and vet dungeons doesn't seem to be an issue.

A lot of people get wrapped up in class descriptions and think "that's how it needs to be". As long as you gear properly for your role and maximize your stats for your preferred playstyle it doesn't matter what your class/race is. There's nothing in this game that will be "too hard" because you don't have a few race/class specific passives to go with a specific weapon/armor set.

Play as you want, so long as you are a NB!

DaveMoeDee · December 2015

People can play the way they want, but in a group, it isn't just you. The way they might want to play is not with you.

I find the whole "play the way you want" thing silly because I don't have a point of reference. What are they comparing themselves to? I have never played any other MMOs so that might be why I don't understand what they mean.

Alucardo · December 2015

2h is a must for Nightblades? That's new. Personally I prefer DW and Bow/S+B. You get your major brutality from flying dagger and heals from Vigor. Executioner isn't needed because my killer's blade can hit up to 12.5k on a good day (which is why I'm against those people wanting it to do physical damage), and I don't need the passive 2h weapon damage because I'm not using wrecking blow on a nb.
So, people saying 2h is a must have no idea what they're talking about and you shouldn't listen to them. As long as your build is effective and won't let the team down, then who cares if you use a mousepad and a piece of cheese as your weapons.

To answer the actual topic question "can you really play any character you want", I would say yes and no. I wanted to use DW and Bow, and it works for me. Some people want to use ridiculous builds that are in no way effective, so they can't really get away with playing how they want if they want to be accepted in particular groups, or win a fight and not look like a clown.
It all depends how extreme you really want to be.

Personally I think it's awesome you don't use a 2h and found a way to think outside the box. You're not just another lemming copying builds. Don't let any one tell you to stop being creative

DaveMoeDee · December 2015

Acrolas wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Put people out there with the same builds and they will not perform the same.

Mostly attributed to external, environmental conditions. If you put players with the same builds in the same environment, using the same equipment, given the same instructions, etc, they would quickly homogenize because you've eliminated every variable except pressing buttons in different orders. But even that would change. Put them in the same room and they would start mimicking each other's behavior until they were effectively the same player doing the same things for the same reasons.

We're so easily conditioned. Takes about 30 minutes.

Also funny how strongly people justify their limitations and lack of freedom. Like it doesn't bother them at all that the one ability they know they have, that would be best at this moment can't be used, because reasons. Feels like a screenplay moment.

I think you are mistaken. They would have very different outcomes. One person would repeat a few things that they feel might work. Another would intelligently apply buffs and debuffs, would use a smart sequence of skills, would react to attacks, and would swallow potions when they make sense.

You greatly overestimate how well the average player can perform in real time combat. I can vouch for the fact that many of us are quite mediocre at responding to what is going on and not panicking into spamming skills.

Add to that the actual coordination involved.

You are way off on this point.

DaveMoeDee · December 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

2h is a must for Nightblades? That's new. Personally I prefer DW and Bow/S+B. You get your major brutality from flying dagger and heals from Vigor. ...

It took me forever to get Vigor on my DK tank. Chasing it on my NB sounds dreadful.

Alucardo · December 2015

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

It took me forever to get Vigor on my DK tank. Chasing it on my NB sounds dreadful.

Took me 3 weeks in non-vet. You could probably do it quicker on azuras though. The AP gain there is real.

flawless4812 · December 2015

See I hate when people ask this question and expect you to run with them........

End game content is end game which means you need to be very good at your class. I have seen alot of different builds that work and to my understanding you can be whatever you want, very few builds don't allow you to do end game.

But we have minimum requirements to do END GAME content or else you will be either carried or kicked from group.

Alot of people tend to build these half classes healer and dps when that's not benefiting the group. Go full into dps or healer and be good at it have the gear and skills to run what you want and you will be fine but don't build a broken build and expect to be successful or for people to allow you to do end game content when the builds not complete (these people should stay solo questing)

altemriel · December 2015

flawless4812 wrote: »

See I hate when people ask this question and expect you to run with them........

End game content is end game which means you need to be very good at your class. I have seen alot of different builds that work and to my understanding you can be whatever you want, very few builds don't allow you to do end game.

But we have minimum requirements to do END GAME content or else you will be either carried or kicked from group.

Alot of people tend to build these half classes healer and dps when that's not benefiting the group. Go full into dps or healer and be good at it have the gear and skills to run what you want and you will be fine but don't build a broken build and expect to be successful or for people to allow you to do end game content when the builds not complete (these people should stay solo questing)

that is similar to what I thought, when some people say learn to play, it simply means, that there are the best ways to play a NB, best ways to play a tank or healer. you still can play any character you like, but to get the maximum from a class or build, it is good to either talk with experienced players or to google it. there are ways of playing that are more effective than others. that is all.

and yes, there are of course people who think they are PROs or Elite, but they are simply only rigid and stubborn. but also, there are people who really know the best ways to play the game and it is very good to seek their advice.

I play DK, I was first playing a hybrid (attribute points to all health, stamina, magicka), with no set armor/weapons/jewelry, with skill build just "random", as I played it. I did not know anything about that. then I chatted with an experienced guildie and changed it all, to stamina DK, changed gear and skills and my dps increased rapidly.

you do not need to copy anyones build or style of play, but to get the maximum of your character, it is good to at least look at the experienced players and get inspired by them. I advice to google: sypher or alcast or deltia and check out their builds and videos.

MrDerrikk · December 2015

I personally love making odd builds in games work for me. Although, with an MMO, I will find an odd build that has been done before and proven to be good, like my NB healer. I spent last night taking to someone about how all the classes are loosley based around the holy MMO trinity, but I still use a DPS DK and a Healer NB.

Elloa · December 2015

Problem is that too much players believe that you have to get a optimized character to be good. They will impose you builds and strategies to defeat bosses cause it's the more efficient way to do it. By doing so, they kill creativity and fun!
Not everyone favour speed run though. The best way to enjoy yourself is to play the way you want (as long as you get the job done, obviously) and to find like minded poeple.

Alcast · December 2015

You can play how you want if you want to be shitttty, if you want to do smth fancy to fotm or gtfo

Lysette · December 2015

I am bit confused about the term ENDGAME CONTENT - what exactly is this endgame content?- As a role player to me the way is the goal, I want to enjoy the way to a character build, where I am comfortable with. My question is now, if I follow this path and do what I think is enjoyable for me, how much of the game will I be missing out in the end, when I might not be accepted into the endgame content, because my build is none of the standard builds and does not fit a specific role?

I would be thankful, if someone would specify what this endgame content really is, which I might be missing out, if I would follow my own idea of a character build, which might fit neither of those 3 standard stereotypes.

Heindrich · December 2015

Lysette wrote: »

I am bit confused about the term ENDGAME CONTENT - what exactly is this endgame content?- As a role player to me the way is the goal, I want to enjoy the way to a character build, where I am comfortable with. My question is now, if I follow this path and do what I think is enjoyable for me, how much of the game will I be missing out in the end, when I might not be accepted into the endgame content, because my build is none of the standard builds and does not fit a specific role?

I would be thankful, if someone would specify what this endgame content really is, which I might be missing out, if I would follow my own idea of a character build, which might fit neither of those 3 standard stereotypes.

There is no definitive definition. I personally consider the following to be "endgame".

1) Veteran PvP (You are earning AP towards alliance ranks)
2) Undaunted Pledges (Veteran Mode) at VR16 (You can obtain endgame monster sets).
3) Trials (AA, Hel Ra, Sanctum, vDSA and vMA)

As for whether you'll miss out on content... You will almost certainly miss out on some of it. But how much, I cannot say because it depends on your personal ability and your social ability (completing group activities is also a social challenge).

Lysette · December 2015

Ok, thank you for clarification, Heindrich, then I'll follow my path and do what I feel comfortable with, I am not that interested into this kind of endgame content.

Edit:

As a side note to this - I see no social competence in something, what excepts only the elite players into a group. It would be social competent, if they could deal with the diversity of characters, to just accept a certain kind of top players into a group, is elitist, that is not social competent.

Flameheart · December 2015

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

I just logged off to share this with the forum. Discussion in guild chat today was about whether you had to play one of the video game archetypes such as "Tank," "DPS," and "Healer." In the chat discussion, people were saying that players really needed to "pick one" of the archetypes, or be ready not be selected by PUGs (pick-up groups) - a sentiment which has been expressed on this forum before.

So I shared my build (for that character) and immediately was told it was "wrong." Nightblade, I was told, "should be" using a bow or DW, and two-handed weapons for DPS. 2H was a must. Using anything else is "wrong." I was next referred to Tamriel Foundry and Deltia's to "L2P." I'm not overly sensitive and I do understand the general point: right now, some skill lines are more efficient than others. But what really made me think was what followed. I'm going to generally sum up chat and if I'm quoting you (I don't know who the speaker was on this forum or if she hangs out here at all) feel free to correct me:

Your build doesn't just serve you, it serves your group. So, yes, you should build your character with some skills that will be most useful to a group. You can say, "I'm just going to PvE," but if you want someone to run an Undaunted dungeon (to finish a zone) with you, then you'll be a liability. If they ask for a DPS, don't say you're a DPS unless you really are a DPS (e.g. using 2H).

ESO is not single player game. PvP requires you to coordinate your attacks, defenses, and heals with others. By picking a standard build, you're more likely to find people you can work with. "Off-the-map" builds (their phrase, not mine) make other people work harder and are generally not appreciated.

So, yes, even if you want to be a DPS, choose the two-handed skill tree whether you want to or not. You never know when you might want to start PvPing.

I'm genuinely think curious if people feel ESO has been designed this way - and that it should have been designed this way. Sure, other TES titles (not Skyrim, of course) had classes, but they weren't MMOs. Many MMOs and many solo games now, are build around this trilogy of archetypes.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Just the way it needs to be? I'm genuinely curious about how other players feel about this.

Thanks.

The people you were talking to are both, right and wrong.

They were right about the fact that there are certain archtype roles in this game especially in PvE (tank, DD, healer) and a group basically needs all 3 of them. They were right too concerning the fact, that a hybrid build - be it rolewise or be it base ressourcewise (stamina or magicka) might make no sense for certain types of roles or content/instances. A DD should be able to deliver a certain amount of dps (I would guess >10k should be enough for the most content without appearing in a bad light). A tank should be a tank, soak up damage from hard hitting trash and bosses, should be able to manage ressources and avoid inc damage. A healer might be the only role where hybrid playstyle would make sense (and sometimes is even needed). As a healer you will always play as a magicka build, but in a good group (people are able to avoid the most damage) you should be able to add dps besides your other jobs as there are

(1) Don't die
(2) Heal
(3) Support by buffs and debuffs, fill up ressources especially
(4) dps

They were wrong about the fact that classes are tied to certain roles as in your example, where "a NB should play always as a stamina build NB wielding a 2h or dualwield...".

Every class in this game is able to fill any role if properly build for that. DD roles are even thinkable as a magicka DD or a stamina DD build. To return to your NB example...NB stamina DD dps and NB magicka DD dps is not very different amountwise, but stamina builds are prefered for PvP while magicka NB builds are prefered for PvE. But either way...both builds still make sense for PvP and PvE (although I - as a PvE healer - hate stamina NBs and stamina builds in general in PvE).

You have the choice for class, role and build (ressource based), but if you managed to do this, the details of a build aren't that "free" anymore. There might still be options, but the variants will resemble a lot and a certain amount of min/maxing is a part of that. Your choice for the base ressource (stamina/magicka) will already determine which weapons and armors you need to use to max your usefulness. As a magicka NB DD you will be tied to destruction staff (single target dps skill bar) and preferably 2 swords (AoE bar) in PvE group play.

I play my NB as a magicka build. I am able - with almost capped CPs - by just switching gear, to play as a healer, as a DD or as a DD/healer hybrid. If you aren't that eager to play PvP and if you are more a PvE player, my advice -> play a magicka NB.

I have high lvl chars of all classes, all I can say is, playing my magicka NB is the most fun by miles, followed by my magicka sorc.

Septimus_Magna · December 2015

You can play any role you want with any class.

The problem is not class and role but the result of a certain combinations.

Everything revolves around time, the higher the dmg output of the group the shorter the time exposed to danger.

For example, if you have a good tank who can self-sustain the healer can focus more on dps making the fights even shorter.
Templars have the benefit of having strong class healing abilities, this allows them to heal while dpsing, even without having a resto staff equipped.

Some players only stick to their 'role' and that is terrible for the group, every group member should help out with dps as much as possible.

Having a healer that pulls 10-15k dps while keeping everyone alive is very useful, fights just end a lot quicker.

hrothbern · December 2015

Lysette wrote: »

Ok, thank you for clarification, Heindrich, then I'll follow my path and do what I feel comfortable with, I am not that interested into this kind of endgame content.

Edit:

As a side note to this - I see no social competence in something, what excepts only the elite players into a group. It would be social competent, if they could deal with the diversity of characters, to just accept a certain kind of top players into a group, is elitist, that is not social competent.

Very much agree

Danikat · December 2015

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

... Now, that being said, if you're serious about playing "your way" find a guild with really great players who will run with you and don't mind the gimping. Typically this just means they're not interested in speed runs so it's not that big a deal.

Sounds intriguing. Where does one find such a thing?

I found several by posting a topic on the forum and being very clear that I was looking for a casual friendly guild - one that wouldn't mind if I'm not here regularly and can't always tell them in advance when I'll be on, doesn't mind if I never use voice chat (I'm not buying a headset for occasional use in 1 game) and doesn't mind if I take a long time to reach level 50, don't use the current flavour of the month builds and I'm not interested in speed runs or world firsts or whatever other ways people turn the game into a contest.

I only actually stuck with 1 of them, but that was for unrelated reasons (ie. one would only play with people in EP, some were on the wrong region etc.), from the responses I got it's clear to me there are multiple guilds out there that don't demand members conform to other peoples builds to play.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

People can play the way they want, but in a group, it isn't just you. The way they might want to play is not with you.

I find the whole "play the way you want" thing silly because I don't have a point of reference. What are they comparing themselves to? I have never played any other MMOs so that might be why I don't understand what they mean.

Have you played any single-player RPGs other than TES games? Most fantasy RPGs have a similar range of weapons, armour types, spell types etc. but unlike in this game which class you choose will determine which ones are available to you.

Dragon Age Inquisition is (IMO) an extreme example of this. In that game if you choose to play as a warrior you can only use a one-handed weapon and shield or two-handed weapon, only wear heavy armour and all of your abilities will be about drawing aggro and controlling enemy movement or dealing melee damage. You cannot play any other way. If you choose to play a mage you can only use light armour and a staff and you'll have almost no ability to draw aggro (which is good because you couldn't take the damage if you did) but you can heal other party members.

The class names and which exact abilities they have will vary, but generally the idea is similar across most games - you have to choose between focusing on tanking, healing or dealing damage and you make that choice when you pick your class.

Whereas in this game (and previous TES games) you can mix and match freely. You can play a sorcerer in heavy armour wielding a bow, or a Templar in a mix of light and heavy armour with a two-handed sword who still focuses on sneak attacks. Some choices may be better than others, but the point is you get to choose instead of the game deciding for you.

Sevalaricgirl · December 2015

robkrush wrote: »

Yes, if just questing or ERP'ing. No, if you want to be good.

That is really a stupid answer. ERPing? Really?

OP, normally people fall into categories with characters anyway. On my DK, I use 2 handed. On my NB, I use bow and dual wield. I mostly solo, don't do meta in this game. I just found myself enjoying the play style.

Lithium Flower · December 2015

Solo content, do whatever you want. If you want to try your hand at completing VMA as a tutu wearing, 2H wielding orc healer, more power to you.

But when you begin group content, you have to learn to synergise and be a team player.

It's true of every single group activity. In a football team, one player can't randomly decide to experiment on the day of the big game and decide to mix goalkeeping and defending because 'it's a game and I wanna have fun' and 'if everyone defends a little bit and minds the goal a little bit, we can still finish'.

No, it's a team effort and you have to specialise and do the job you picked in the best possible way, then you practice till you get it right. Doing it like clockwork, and producing the best run together is what makes it fun for many people.

I can remember runs in vICP or vWGT or vDSA that took 4-5 hours of trial and error and they give me joy because it was a challenge that my group overcame together but it's even more satisfying to have a perfect 25 minute vWGT run with everything executed to perfection because it's a fruit of your experience and expertise and ability.

But in order to accomplish this, you need gear that's best for the task. In golf, you have a ball and you have to hit it with a stick until it lands in the hole but you have a dozen (or more) different sticks, each is better at one thing than another. A good player knows when to use which stick in the best possible way. The best players will often have nearly identical gear because those items are proven to be the best in a situation. It's not a testament to your skill that you can use a 5 iron to (eventually) make a put shot, it's a testament of the exact opposite.

A good player picks the exact tool combination to achieve his objective with maximum efficiency.

You should experiment and mess around while you're leveling and learning but by the time you reach end game, you shouldn't be arguing that your snowflake build is as good as the standard recommended unless you have the logic, numbers and achievements to back it up.