Darnathian wrote: »

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

For all the people saying go and nerf cloak. Well here is my 2 cents. Go and play a nb, use cloak to get out of a sticky situation, and see if it works 75% it doesnt, and while your pvping and using cloak do tell us how it needs to be nerfed cuz a lot of things will bring u out of cloak. So unless you play a nightblade stop your bit**ing about nerfing cloak. Otherwise nerfing sorcs, nerfing dk's, nerf, templars. For the love of god. Just pvp and play your class and learn to counter that other class!

i have every class. if you know everything exactly how can a mag dk beat a nb? if they make the dots stick then fine. leave it as is. but mark my words. there is a cloak nerf coming. no way around it. every other OP ability has been hit. Cloak is next and rightfully so.

Cloak has so many counters. Mag dk just talons the NB and he's done for if he tries to "spam" cloak. It's literally a L2p issue steel tornado Impulse caltrops are all more than effective.

Totally agree with @MrGigglypants , for I am a mag NB myself and I do struggle with the caltrops, talons, etc. mentioned above. It is a matter of L2P, and I have to apply the same strategies when fighting a fellow mag NB

MrGigglypants wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Only thing I'd consider nerfing about cloak is the removal of DoTs.

Would reduce it to 2 at all ranks, that'd also make the other morph actually attractive, and stop screwing DoT builds that much.

Use aoes. Reapply dots. Stam dk crushes stam nb all day green dragons blood beats cloak everytime unless the person playing the dk is clueless. Beating cloak is a L2p issue.

...When did I say it was about stam DKs?

No, the intended target is definitely magicka DKs, since stam DKs almost never use more than 2 DoTs.

...And mentioning GDB on a stam DK makes me wonder who is the one who has to L2P here...

And not just that, when was the last time you saw a competitive DoT build in Cyro? On my side: never.

Asmael wrote: »

MrGigglypants wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Only thing I'd consider nerfing about cloak is the removal of DoTs.

Would reduce it to 2 at all ranks, that'd also make the other morph actually attractive, and stop screwing DoT builds that much.

Use aoes. Reapply dots. Stam dk crushes stam nb all day green dragons blood beats cloak everytime unless the person playing the dk is clueless. Beating cloak is a L2p issue.

...When did I say it was about stam DKs?

No, the intended target is definitely magicka DKs, since stam DKs almost never use more than 2 DoTs.

...And mentioning GDB on a stam DK makes me wonder who is the one who has to L2P here...

And not just that, when was the last time you saw a competitive DoT build in Cyro? On my side: never.

There is not really any compete time dot builds because that territory belongs to a Magika dk which is useless right now.

I also agree with green dragon blood. A useless ability right now and it needs to be fixed. That is a key ability for dk that was ruined.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Prabooo wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Cloak in itself is worlds better than streak as an escape.
*

Streak is not countered by AoE's, Piercing Mark or pots

@Prabooo nope you are right it's actually countered by debuff, gap closers, long range attacks, negate, silence, speed buffs and other sorcerers.

Are you trying to say streak should have as many counters as cloak or vice versa? Because either way your argument is fail.

Comparing cloak to streak is like comparing apples to oranges. In the end they are both round fruits that basically do the same thing with small differences and a different flavor.

It's convenient to argue that they are apples and oranges when the argument doesn't suit cloak.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Prabooo wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Cloak in itself is worlds better than streak as an escape.
*

Streak is not countered by AoE's, Piercing Mark or pots

@Prabooo nope you are right it's actually countered by debuff, gap closers, long range attacks, negate, silence, speed buffs and other sorcerers.

Are you trying to say streak should have as many counters as cloak or vice versa? Because either way your argument is fail.

Comparing cloak to streak is like comparing apples to oranges. In the end they are both round fruits that basically do the same thing with small differences and a different flavor.

It's convenient to argue that they are apples and oranges when the argument doesn't suit cloak.

Look at my previous comment where I broke down each skill side by side.

K well now you are just being confusing because saying something is apples/oranges infers they are different categories of thigs not that they are the same.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Prabooo wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Cloak in itself is worlds better than streak as an escape.
*

Streak is not countered by AoE's, Piercing Mark or pots

@Prabooo nope you are right it's actually countered by debuff, gap closers, long range attacks, negate, silence, speed buffs and other sorcerers.

Are you trying to say streak should have as many counters as cloak or vice versa? Because either way your argument is fail.

Comparing cloak to streak is like comparing apples to oranges. In the end they are both round fruits that basically do the same thing with small differences and a different flavor.

It's convenient to argue that they are apples and oranges when the argument doesn't suit cloak.

Look at my previous comment where I broke down each skill side by side.

K well now you are just being confusing because saying something is apples/oranges infers they are different categories of thigs not that they are the same.

I'm sorry you don't understand but it is pretty straight forward.

I am saying both abilities fall within a similar category but branch out into sub categories which makes them unique.

Apples and oranges are in the same category (fruit) but are still part of separate sub categories that make them unique.

The point being that comparing the two abilities is simply just picking the type of fruit you prefer depending in your prefrence. Both abilities operate in a similar fashion. But still have different flavors. Both abilities operate in a similar way but add a different flavor to the fight.

It is just a saying. The point I am trying to make is stop yelling about how one is better than the other. Or this does that but this doesnt. They both essentially are the same and it depends on which you prefer.

Yes but the expression apples and oranges infers they are fundamentally different and thus uncomparable.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges

I'm not arguing with your argument, I'm saying you need to learn what the expression comparing apples and oranges means.

Man, I'm gone for like a few days celebrating Xmas with my family, and this thread... well... turned from a discussion into a NB-hate fest....

And honestly... most of these anti-NB arguments don't even make sense...

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

@Tryxus You have no excuses left. There's not a single thing that can be said to justify the state of the current nightblade class. It is easy to pull you out of cloak, yes but nothing prevents you from roll dodge once and cloak again, and again and again. And no, being stamina wont make it harder. Also all you need is 3 (soammable) abilities to be fully buffed and have me with at least 4 different debuffs. "The most balanced class buff the others" wont cut it anymore.

Actually, I still have 1 argument left to defend Cloak. Wanna hear it? OK...

Remember the ol' day when the game just came out of beta? The NB was the worst class in the game, even worse than Templar. Hard to imagine, right? And you know why the NB was the worst? Because the Cloak back then didn't remove DoT effects and was removed instantly when the NB got hit by that

Now, as a MagBlade I know that Cloak can keep us invisible since we have a large amount of Magicka that can keep us Cloaked. Which is exactly why I suggested that Reduced (not 0%) Magicka Regen while Cloaked mechanic. But I'm actually having 2nd thoughts about that since my Magicka is alrdy being drained by the continuous use of Cloak during combat. I'd have to run a sustain build if they change it like that, but then I'd have to sacrifice Spell Damage which makes my ganking abilities non-existant

Which is also an argument: gankers don't run sustain builds. They buff their damage to such lvls that their regen sux. It's a compromise we have to make. So if the gank fails, then what should we do? Fight on, or cloak away? True, we can make sustain builds, but what's the point of the stealth passive or the extra effects we receive from skills that we can receive only during stealth? We'd be mere fighters weaker than DK since we don't have their resource managent or mages weaker than Sorcs since we can't reach their Spell Damage without going stealth.

StamBlades? 3 Cloaks, that's all. And if you've seen some of the videos like those of Strider Roshin, you'd have noticed that Cloak can be rather unreliable.

The reasons I'm calling NB "The Most Balanced" class are the following:

- Capable of running viable Magicka and Stamina builds: this is something the other classes are lacking. Mag DKs, Stam Sorcs and both Templars have it hard. Stam Sorcs are in a pretty good spot due to receiving the right stamina Morphs, but would be better with a passives review for stamina builds, removal of pet skills and a Stamina Morph of their Execute. Mag DK's just need the right skills: Stonefist Execute, stronger Whip,... and Templars need serious fixing and buffing.
- Doing their jobs: NB are assassins, so they're supposed to be gankers/one shotters/etc. We strike from the shadows, kill the weakest link and go right back to the shadows.
- A hard-pressed class in 1vs1: yes they are. NB have good duelling skills, but if you think about: Sorcs have shields which can't be crit or receive a DoT, DK's are too tanky and with most NB being Vamp their fire attacks will hurt like Oblivion and Templars can outlast the NB with their heals

All in all, I'd say ZOS did a good job on the NB, and now needs to focus on buffing the other classes so they can run both Magicka and Stamina builds in PvP.

I'm actually hoping that the Great Class Overhaul in January will put the other classes on the same lvl as us. NB need no nerfing, we're capable of being the assassins we're supposed to be. Rather, NB needs to be used as a template for the other classes so they can be buffed the same way and run good Magicka and Stamina builds once again.

You're in denial. That's it. I don't blame you though. This so called "ganking builds" don't exist anymore. It's easy to reach 4k weapon damage and 2k+ regen and believe me 2k stam regen is al you need to have good sustain . So yes you can gank someone, fail, but who cares? Why would you retreat when you have so many debuffs in a few spammable skills. And no, 3 cloaks for stam NBs is not all they can do. Watch any streamer playing stamina nightblade I can asure you they do cloak whenever they want. This 3 cloak thing is a lie. With a drink and willows path you get over 1k magicka regen on a stamina nightblade. Im 99% sure Nightblades will get nerfed and m hoping its a big one so we can see more diversity in Cyrodiil.

You could argue that sorcerers are op too, and yes they are but at least there are not sorcerers behind every freaking rock in cyrodiil. Also I have yet to fight a sorcerer using cheap tactics, like when 1v1 if im winning the fight they could try to escape but they never do and they just lose the fight with honor. Nightblades on the other side... They will cloak, ambush to a mob then cloak then aggro a boss then cloak and it's so frustrating.

- Denial? Says the guy who never tried out the other classes and refuses to play a NB? I mean, I'm gonna be honest here. First of all: I lied, cuz I did try out all 4 classes. I had created a character called Rialy, who started out as a female Imperial Stamplar, so I could join a PvP in non-vet group. Played with them at lvl 12 I think. The class felt so different from what I'm used to, it didn't feel as powerful but I had fun running with my group. So I kept lvling to 40-ish, tried non-vet PvP on my own... and fell flat on my face. Had to resort to Weapon Skills and FG abilities instead of my Class Skills in an attempt to win battles and 1v1. However, this experience taught me much: it taught me that Templars were in need of a buff and serious bug fixing, and it was that experience that convinced me to get ZOS to understand that this game doesn't need nerfs anymore, and that nerf-sayers are killing this game. BUFF TEMPLARS, MAKE MAG DKS VIABLE AGAIN, LEAVE NB ALONE. That is now my motto. #esopositivevibe (and Rialy? rerolled as another MagBlade. Also in part due to me reworking her in this story I'm writing)
- Gank builds with regen? They achieve that with drinks. And what do they lose out then? Magicka, Health and Stamina. It makes them so squishy, you can squash them like bug. "OH THAT SLAPS ME ON THE KNEE" . Although they're more like mosquitos, can't rlly swat them in the night. But the point I'm making here is this: every time you try to boost smth, you also have to sacrifice smth. Their builds still have a weakness, a weakness that ppl should learn to exploit. A proper counter to expose the NB, and a heavy hitting attack to crush them. Believe me, I've taken many of those types of NB out, even on my old Sorc and DK. And I'm def not the best PvPer out there, below average maybe. Then why is this a problem for you?
- Spammable skills? Not a NB issue. NB do have 2, but if smth were to happen to those, NB can't gank and loses its purpose as a class. Would be the same as a MagPlar losing his heals.
- StamBlades can't spam cloak. 3 Cloak thing is not a lie.
- Well I'm 99% sure NB WON'T get nerfed. The class at this point is a perfect template for the other classes to be based upon: well balanced between Magicka and Stamina, doing it's job in PvP, and the proper playstyles for each class. Maybe NB will get a couple of tweaks to remove the abuse of certain moves, but I'm 99% sure it won't be class breaking and that the other 3 will receive their buffs.
- Please, just try to be constructive here and ask for other classes to get buffed. Every person out there like me who have rolled a NB since they like the class itself and who have put months of work in there don't deserve to get it all taken away from them since a few ppl can't stand to be beaten/ganked by them and cry for NERF. Be a bit more compassionate, and ask for other classes to get buffed.

PS: NB can't pull sewers bosses: cloak and stealth don't work on them. Sorcs are the guilty ones here

CP5 wrote: »

Tryxus, NB's were bad at launch not because of cloak not purging dots, they were bad since many of their skills flat out didn't work in combat with multiple opponents. ZOS gave NB's bug fixes and pity buffs (see Refreshing Shadow and the old potion passive) and now that they are both fixed and buffed they are very powerful. If not for the bugs, not design decisions, NB's would have been a solid class since day 1.

True, design wise they were like the DK: powerful in PvP. But with all the bugs, the DK ruled and the NB drooled in Cyro. DK took the blame and got nerfed, NB got fixed and now we are the ones who take the blame.

Can't you guys just open your eyes? Nerf-sayers kill this game.

If ppl were to listen to these NB-haters, the same thing will happen all over again. Only this time Templar will become OP, NB will be like the DK: Stam builds still rather strong, Mag builds down the drain. And then the cycle will repeat...

There's only one way to break this cycle: stop the NB hate, stop asking for nerfs and get ZOS to buff the other classes.

Compassion.

Cathexis wrote: »

Prabooo wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Cloak in itself is worlds better than streak as an escape.
*

Streak is not countered by AoE's, Piercing Mark or pots

@Prabooo nope you are right it's actually countered by debuff, gap closers, long range attacks, negate, silence, speed buffs and other sorcerers.

Are you trying to say streak should have as many counters as cloak or vice versa? Because either way your argument is fail.

I love metaphores actually. Mind if I give it a go?

Let's say: Cloak is an apple and Streak is an orange

Both are escape moves -> both are fruits
Both have counters -> both come from diff climates
Both are not reliable either -> both spoil and become rotten

But the thing is:
- they aren't the same fruit (diff classes)
- both have diff tastes (effects)
- some ppl have a prefference (I prefer apples, oranges give me the... ok you know what? I'm just gonna skip to the explanation here)

The thing here are the classes themselves: Sorcerers are mages who wear light robes and are meant to fight at a distance. Streak is meant to assist them with that: bolting forward to gain distance, a stun to buy time and it does damage.

Nightblades on the other hand rely on stealth, which is smth that Cloak provides: a retreat just like Streak is for the Sorcs but to appeal to a stealth user this time around (those who don't like Oranges) by allowing the NB to reenter stealth.

But alas...

Streak got nerfed cuz ppl cried about not being able to kill the Sorc, despite just like how NB have so many options against their Cloaks, there are so many counters to a Sorc's Streak.

Now I could be wrong about this, but I think the reason Streak got that nerf was cuz Sorcs still have their Shields (high damage absorbing shields that can't be crit or receive a DoT) and since Streak is technically an attack that's also a counter to Cloak.

But whatever the case, I do think the nerf to Streak was unjustified and completely uncalled for. And I hope that gets rectified too with the Great Class Overhaul next update

(Personally, I think Shields should be susceptible to Crits and DoTs... nah, just kidding I'm against nerfs )

They nerfed detect pots a while back. I don't mind the shorter duration, but I think they should have a much larger radius. It should be the same as Mark. If you can get marked, you should be able to immediately hit a detect pot and be able to see where the little bugger is for at least a few seconds.