Truly Cloak should be a non class skill and amoung other adjustments NB should have a magicka based shield in its place. In PvE cloak is a DPS loss you don't slot it its solely a PvP skill so put it in assault and let all classes have access to it. Discuss

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

The fact that a Stamina sorc can only streak 2-3 times if lucky and a Stam NB can cloak 3+ times is the issue with cloak. Cloak in itself is worlds better than streak as an escape. When spammed it is a 100% dodge of an incoming dmg, you can move past any aggro while using cloak, magicka NBs can use it so much that fights can be reset where the mag blade recovers full resources.

Give cloak the streak cost treatment and the cries over NBs wont be as common.

*

Bolt escape works every time. My cloak works 1/3 of the time. I don't want to hear it. Don't believe me? Here watch this fight of mine:
https://youtu.be/w2wLbbWuYdM

Cloak also makes you untargetable and invisible.

The problem with cloak is that nightblades can just walk out of any fight they don't want to be in. It wasn't ok for sorcs, it isn't ok for nightblades.

Detection potions, AoEs, anti-cloak moves such as piercing mark and revealing flare; makes Nightblades targetable and visible. There's no NOPE move that stops sorcs from bolt escaping. On top of that bolt escape damages and CCs, not to mention reveals cloaked Nightblades.

Piercing mark is a nb skill.

Revelaing flare is assault 7...

Aoe's are completely unreliable.

Detect pots, sure there an option, but that requires a lot of gold and you lose your potion cooldown.

Lol more you're making excuses. Caltrops are easier to obtain, and if you're stamina based steel tornado is the anti Nightblade move, and biting jabs prevents a Nightblade from cloaking if you keep the pressure on him/her.

So your saying you then either are forced to use a deep tree pvp skill with a 6k stamina cost or forced to use dual wield and steel tornado.

All these supposed "counters" people go on about really ends up just being pandering to nightblades.

Nightblades aren't forced to slot counters for other nightblades - they either have actively useful counters like mark or those counter skills fit well into their builds.

That's on top of the ability to peace out of any fight at random.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

Truly Cloak should be a non class skill and amoung other adjustments NB should have a magicka based shield in its place. In PvE cloak is a DPS loss you don't slot it its solely a PvP skill so put it in assault and let all classes have access to it. Discuss

The last thing we need is shield stacking sorcs having cloak too lmfao

*

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

Truly Cloak should be a non class skill and amoung other adjustments NB should have a magicka based shield in its place. In PvE cloak is a DPS loss you don't slot it its solely a PvP skill so put it in assault and let all classes have access to it. Discuss

The last thing we need is shield stacking sorcs having cloak too lmfao

*

If everyone had access to cloak the counters to cloak would be far more prevalent in use. In addition the amount of resources a sorc would have to spend for cloak would leave them with very little sustain. Lastly a shield staking sorc with cloak would get ran over by any cc

Ive tead a good portion of the thread. All i have to comment on is 1.) as a stam nb purge is not really a viable option to combat dot, i could use it once and any good player would just reapply dot and literally watch me die.
2.) i am a stam nb, i have 9700 magicka i believe, cloak costs 3300 i believe.my regen is obviously low 100s. Meaning i get 3 cloaks, just 3, and thats only if i save my magicka for escape.

Just about every class is immune to DoTs. Templars? Class ability to purge. Sorcs? Shields. NBs? Cloak. DKs? Only ones that are affected towards DoTs. DoTs are a joke, really.

Darnathian wrote: »

Don't nerf cloak or buff detection pots. But please remove the "removes damage over time effects" off it for the love of god. Slot purge like everyone else. Discuss.

You know what let's just berg every ability that makes a nb unique that way when I still ruin your day on my nb you can whine that I cheated. By that logic you would also have to remove the purge that Templar have. While we are at it let's just make all classes exactly the same. Nb have an ability like this because it is how they survive with class skills. Temp have heals. Dk have heals (although it needs to be fixed), sorc have shields and we have cloak.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

Truly Cloak should be a non class skill and amoung other adjustments NB should have a magicka based shield in its place. In PvE cloak is a DPS loss you don't slot it its solely a PvP skill so put it in assault and let all classes have access to it. Discuss

I agree, since this spell is the reason why we have so many "nerf nbs" threads. If it will be available for everyone, they will see that nb is not that absurdly op as many people tend to think. I think that cloak might be reworked (so it cant be permanently spammed) and added to Thieves Guild skill line.
But at the same time, nbs could use some survivability skill. After all, they're the only class without class shield.

No it is, the ability to disengage whenever you want is so strong, going from a dk to a nb is a whole new pvp experience,

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

...since this spell is the reason why we have so many "nerf nbs" threads...

Def not true

Main reason why there's so many "nerf NB" threads...

...

...wait for it...

...

...

... is cuz ppl don't like getting ganked or 2 shotted by NB.

Kinda weird, cuz that's what we're supposed to do. But yeah. My thoughts on that? Buff the other classes or wait until the Great Class Overhaul in January

I think DoTs should not break invisibility by default, if it weren't for dark cloak the skill would be useless. If we remove the ability for DoT damage to remove invisibility, we can remove the purge from dark cloak and I think the game would be in a healthier place. The other morph is also bad because the builds that would like to use it already have lots of crit.

I think the two morphs should be:

Assassin's Cloak
- Grants Empower on your next attack within 3 seconds.
- While slotted, passively increases crit damage by 10%.

Elusive Cloak
- Removes snares on activation.
- Grants Minor Expedition for 3 seconds. (Possibly Major, would need testing.)

Now there is an actual choice to be made between the two morphs.

Prabooo wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Cloak in itself is worlds better than streak as an escape.
*

Streak is not countered by AoE's, Piercing Mark or pots

@Prabooo nope you are right it's actually countered by debuff, gap closers, long range attacks, negate, silence, speed buffs and other sorcerers.

Are you trying to say streak should have as many counters as cloak or vice versa? Because either way your argument is fail.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Prabooo wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Cloak in itself is worlds better than streak as an escape.
*

Streak is not countered by AoE's, Piercing Mark or pots

@Prabooo nope you are right it's actually countered by debuff, gap closers, long range attacks, negate, silence, speed buffs and other sorcerers.

Are you trying to say streak should have as many counters as cloak or vice versa? Because either way your argument is fail.

Comparing cloak to streak is like comparing apples to oranges. In the end they are both round fruits that basically do the same thing with small differences and a different flavor.

Apart from the fact there not even in the same league, gap closers > streak. People still see you, you still take dmg, you drain your magicka stupidly fast if you try and escape with it, doesn't remove dots, doesn't completely hide from an enemy, doesn't stop attacks hitting.

Cloak allows you to disengage when you want, purge dots, stun on coming out of stealth, stop attacks hitting your even though they should of.

Cloak is a mobility/escape skill were as streak is mobility.

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

@Tryxus You have no excuses left. There's not a single thing that can be said to justify the state of the current nightblade class. It is easy to pull you out of cloak, yes but nothing prevents you from roll dodge once and cloak again, and again and again. And no, being stamina wont make it harder. Also all you need is 3 (soammable) abilities to be fully buffed and have me with at least 4 different debuffs. "The most balanced class buff the others" wont cut it anymore.

Actually, I still have 1 argument left to defend Cloak. Wanna hear it? OK...

Remember the ol' day when the game just came out of beta? The NB was the worst class in the game, even worse than Templar. Hard to imagine, right? And you know why the NB was the worst? Because the Cloak back then didn't remove DoT effects and was removed instantly when the NB got hit by that

Now, as a MagBlade I know that Cloak can keep us invisible since we have a large amount of Magicka that can keep us Cloaked. Which is exactly why I suggested that Reduced (not 0%) Magicka Regen while Cloaked mechanic. But I'm actually having 2nd thoughts about that since my Magicka is alrdy being drained by the continuous use of Cloak during combat. I'd have to run a sustain build if they change it like that, but then I'd have to sacrifice Spell Damage which makes my ganking abilities non-existant

Which is also an argument: gankers don't run sustain builds. They buff their damage to such lvls that their regen sux. It's a compromise we have to make. So if the gank fails, then what should we do? Fight on, or cloak away? True, we can make sustain builds, but what's the point of the stealth passive or the extra effects we receive from skills that we can receive only during stealth? We'd be mere fighters weaker than DK since we don't have their resource managent or mages weaker than Sorcs since we can't reach their Spell Damage without going stealth.

StamBlades? 3 Cloaks, that's all. And if you've seen some of the videos like those of Strider Roshin, you'd have noticed that Cloak can be rather unreliable.

The reasons I'm calling NB "The Most Balanced" class are the following:

- Capable of running viable Magicka and Stamina builds: this is something the other classes are lacking. Mag DKs, Stam Sorcs and both Templars have it hard. Stam Sorcs are in a pretty good spot due to receiving the right stamina Morphs, but would be better with a passives review for stamina builds, removal of pet skills and a Stamina Morph of their Execute. Mag DK's just need the right skills: Stonefist Execute, stronger Whip,... and Templars need serious fixing and buffing.
- Doing their jobs: NB are assassins, so they're supposed to be gankers/one shotters/etc. We strike from the shadows, kill the weakest link and go right back to the shadows.
- A hard-pressed class in 1vs1: yes they are. NB have good duelling skills, but if you think about: Sorcs have shields which can't be crit or receive a DoT, DK's are too tanky and with most NB being Vamp their fire attacks will hurt like Oblivion and Templars can outlast the NB with their heals

All in all, I'd say ZOS did a good job on the NB, and now needs to focus on buffing the other classes so they can run both Magicka and Stamina builds in PvP.

I'm actually hoping that the Great Class Overhaul in January will put the other classes on the same lvl as us. NB need no nerfing, we're capable of being the assassins we're supposed to be. Rather, NB needs to be used as a template for the other classes so they can be buffed the same way and run good Magicka and Stamina builds once again.

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

@Tryxus You have no excuses left. There's not a single thing that can be said to justify the state of the current nightblade class. It is easy to pull you out of cloak, yes but nothing prevents you from roll dodge once and cloak again, and again and again. And no, being stamina wont make it harder. Also all you need is 3 (soammable) abilities to be fully buffed and have me with at least 4 different debuffs. "The most balanced class buff the others" wont cut it anymore.

Actually, I still have 1 argument left to defend Cloak. Wanna hear it? OK...

Remember the ol' day when the game just came out of beta? The NB was the worst class in the game, even worse than Templar. Hard to imagine, right? And you know why the NB was the worst? Because the Cloak back then didn't remove DoT effects and was removed instantly when the NB got hit by that

Now, as a MagBlade I know that Cloak can keep us invisible since we have a large amount of Magicka that can keep us Cloaked. Which is exactly why I suggested that Reduced (not 0%) Magicka Regen while Cloaked mechanic. But I'm actually having 2nd thoughts about that since my Magicka is alrdy being drained by the continuous use of Cloak during combat. I'd have to run a sustain build if they change it like that, but then I'd have to sacrifice Spell Damage which makes my ganking abilities non-existant

Which is also an argument: gankers don't run sustain builds. They buff their damage to such lvls that their regen sux. It's a compromise we have to make. So if the gank fails, then what should we do? Fight on, or cloak away? True, we can make sustain builds, but what's the point of the stealth passive or the extra effects we receive from skills that we can receive only during stealth? We'd be mere fighters weaker than DK since we don't have their resource managent or mages weaker than Sorcs since we can't reach their Spell Damage without going stealth.

StamBlades? 3 Cloaks, that's all. And if you've seen some of the videos like those of Strider Roshin, you'd have noticed that Cloak can be rather unreliable.

The reasons I'm calling NB "The Most Balanced" class are the following:

- Capable of running viable Magicka and Stamina builds: this is something the other classes are lacking. Mag DKs, Stam Sorcs and both Templars have it hard. Stam Sorcs are in a pretty good spot due to receiving the right stamina Morphs, but would be better with a passives review for stamina builds, removal of pet skills and a Stamina Morph of their Execute. Mag DK's just need the right skills: Stonefist Execute, stronger Whip,... and Templars need serious fixing and buffing.
- Doing their jobs: NB are assassins, so they're supposed to be gankers/one shotters/etc. We strike from the shadows, kill the weakest link and go right back to the shadows.
- A hard-pressed class in 1vs1: yes they are. NB have good duelling skills, but if you think about: Sorcs have shields which can't be crit or receive a DoT, DK's are too tanky and with most NB being Vamp their fire attacks will hurt like Oblivion and Templars can outlast the NB with their heals

All in all, I'd say ZOS did a good job on the NB, and now needs to focus on buffing the other classes so they can run both Magicka and Stamina builds in PvP.

I'm actually hoping that the Great Class Overhaul in January will put the other classes on the same lvl as us. NB need no nerfing, we're capable of being the assassins we're supposed to be. Rather, NB needs to be used as a template for the other classes so they can be buffed the same way and run good Magicka and Stamina builds once again.

You're in denial. That's it. I don't blame you though. This so called "ganking builds" don't exist anymore. It's easy to reach 4k weapon damage and 2k+ regen and believe me 2k stam regen is al you need to have good sustain . So yes you can gank someone, fail, but who cares? Why would you retreat when you have so many debuffs in a few spammable skills. And no, 3 cloaks for stam NBs is not all they can do. Watch any streamer playing stamina nightblade I can asure you they do cloak whenever they want. This 3 cloak thing is a lie. With a drink and willows path you get over 1k magicka regen on a stamina nightblade. Im 99% sure Nightblades will get nerfed and m hoping its a big one so we can see more diversity in Cyrodiil.

You could argue that sorcerers are op too, and yes they are but at least there are not sorcerers behind every freaking rock in cyrodiil. Also I have yet to fight a sorcerer using cheap tactics, like when 1v1 if im winning the fight they could try to escape but they never do and they just lose the fight with honor. Nightblades on the other side... They will cloak, ambush to a mob then cloak then aggro a boss then cloak and it's so frustrating.

First, stop bringing up streamers as your defense. You should never have to rely on an elite players skill to prove your point. Those same players wreck with crap builds too. That doesn't make those op.

Second, gang builds absolutely still exist. Sure gank builds can have roughly the same weapon damage as a pleyer running 2k recovery sitting working 4k. However the difference is that a gank build uses food for the extra damage over drink which will keep them around 1500-1700 Stam recovery which is sub optimal for extended battles.

Three, your experiences mislead you. Sorc sure as heck run around cheezing just as much and as often as a nb. They do turn and run from a fight when they about to lose. Streak combined with shield spam. Even your precious streamers spam hardened ward and run. Sorc will sit there and spam shields to their hearts content when fighting. I ya real honorable to just stand in a group of 8 spamming shields and streak for 5 min while they can't kill you, but the Sorc also is just delaying death simply cause of spamming shields.

Four, yes a stam nb should be hitting 1100 mag regen if they are not running a gank build. However, a gank build will not have that sustain. That said, a stam nb can't spam it more than 4 times in a row. That is not to say that they can't use it more often then 4 times in a row without having to wait for regen to do it again. Not to mention when they do that they No longer have the resources for fear and other magicka buffs they need for some time while waiting to regen. Stam can use cloak when they want because they manage their resources and don't spam magicka abilities to often. Streamers are very good at managing their resources and controlling a fight leading them to be able to use cloak when they need to.

Five, when making a point such as the one you are making you should not have to say something is not true because a particular build can do it. Ya a nb running willows path can maximize recovery when using drink. Yoh know the odds of running into a nb running willows path. They will lose out on many other more worthy sets. I would also point out that any stam build can run that set and drink. Any stam build can get that recovery for magicka without blinking an eye. Keeping magicka recovery up for a stam Sorc is just as important. Again, 1000 regen for any stam build running drink is easy and does not require much.

Last, I don't necessarily agree with everything the person you are talking with has said. However, I do agree that nb are the most balance class. Although some skills need to be tweaked depending on what balances are done, I do believe other classes need to be buffed not nb needing nerf. Some skills like ambush and supreme attack need to be reworked. For instance, if the champ points are not balanced an stam builds run rampant still them ambush should lose empowering buff and take a slight dps reduction. Suprise attack should lose the stunning and the debuff but keep its raw damage. But again depends on how they balance the game.

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

@Tryxus You have no excuses left. There's not a single thing that can be said to justify the state of the current nightblade class. It is easy to pull you out of cloak, yes but nothing prevents you from roll dodge once and cloak again, and again and again. And no, being stamina wont make it harder. Also all you need is 3 (soammable) abilities to be fully buffed and have me with at least 4 different debuffs. "The most balanced class buff the others" wont cut it anymore.

Actually, I still have 1 argument left to defend Cloak. Wanna hear it? OK...

Remember the ol' day when the game just came out of beta? The NB was the worst class in the game, even worse than Templar. Hard to imagine, right? And you know why the NB was the worst? Because the Cloak back then didn't remove DoT effects and was removed instantly when the NB got hit by that

Now, as a MagBlade I know that Cloak can keep us invisible since we have a large amount of Magicka that can keep us Cloaked. Which is exactly why I suggested that Reduced (not 0%) Magicka Regen while Cloaked mechanic. But I'm actually having 2nd thoughts about that since my Magicka is alrdy being drained by the continuous use of Cloak during combat. I'd have to run a sustain build if they change it like that, but then I'd have to sacrifice Spell Damage which makes my ganking abilities non-existant

Which is also an argument: gankers don't run sustain builds. They buff their damage to such lvls that their regen sux. It's a compromise we have to make. So if the gank fails, then what should we do? Fight on, or cloak away? True, we can make sustain builds, but what's the point of the stealth passive or the extra effects we receive from skills that we can receive only during stealth? We'd be mere fighters weaker than DK since we don't have their resource managent or mages weaker than Sorcs since we can't reach their Spell Damage without going stealth.

StamBlades? 3 Cloaks, that's all. And if you've seen some of the videos like those of Strider Roshin, you'd have noticed that Cloak can be rather unreliable.

The reasons I'm calling NB "The Most Balanced" class are the following:

- Capable of running viable Magicka and Stamina builds: this is something the other classes are lacking. Mag DKs, Stam Sorcs and both Templars have it hard. Stam Sorcs are in a pretty good spot due to receiving the right stamina Morphs, but would be better with a passives review for stamina builds, removal of pet skills and a Stamina Morph of their Execute. Mag DK's just need the right skills: Stonefist Execute, stronger Whip,... and Templars need serious fixing and buffing.
- Doing their jobs: NB are assassins, so they're supposed to be gankers/one shotters/etc. We strike from the shadows, kill the weakest link and go right back to the shadows.
- A hard-pressed class in 1vs1: yes they are. NB have good duelling skills, but if you think about: Sorcs have shields which can't be crit or receive a DoT, DK's are too tanky and with most NB being Vamp their fire attacks will hurt like Oblivion and Templars can outlast the NB with their heals

All in all, I'd say ZOS did a good job on the NB, and now needs to focus on buffing the other classes so they can run both Magicka and Stamina builds in PvP.

I'm actually hoping that the Great Class Overhaul in January will put the other classes on the same lvl as us. NB need no nerfing, we're capable of being the assassins we're supposed to be. Rather, NB needs to be used as a template for the other classes so they can be buffed the same way and run good Magicka and Stamina builds once again.

You're in denial. That's it. I don't blame you though. This so called "ganking builds" don't exist anymore. It's easy to reach 4k weapon damage and 2k+ regen and believe me 2k stam regen is al you need to have good sustain . So yes you can gank someone, fail, but who cares? Why would you retreat when you have so many debuffs in a few spammable skills. And no, 3 cloaks for stam NBs is not all they can do. Watch any streamer playing stamina nightblade I can asure you they do cloak whenever they want. This 3 cloak thing is a lie. With a drink and willows path you get over 1k magicka regen on a stamina nightblade. Im 99% sure Nightblades will get nerfed and m hoping its a big one so we can see more diversity in Cyrodiil.

You could argue that sorcerers are op too, and yes they are but at least there are not sorcerers behind every freaking rock in cyrodiil. Also I have yet to fight a sorcerer using cheap tactics, like when 1v1 if im winning the fight they could try to escape but they never do and they just lose the fight with honor. Nightblades on the other side... They will cloak, ambush to a mob then cloak then aggro a boss then cloak and it's so frustrating.

First, stop bringing up streamers as your defense. You should never have to rely on an elite players skill to prove your point. Those same players wreck with crap builds too. That doesn't make those op.

Second, gang builds absolutely still exist. Sure gank builds can have roughly the same weapon damage as a pleyer running 2k recovery sitting working 4k. However the difference is that a gank build uses food for the extra damage over drink which will keep them around 1500-1700 Stam recovery which is sub optimal for extended battles.

Three, your experiences mislead you. Sorc sure as heck run around cheezing just as much and as often as a nb. They do turn and run from a fight when they about to lose. Streak combined with shield spam. Even your precious streamers spam hardened ward and run. Sorc will sit there and spam shields to their hearts content when fighting. I ya real honorable to just stand in a group of 8 spamming shields and streak for 5 min while they can't kill you, but the Sorc also is just delaying death simply cause of spamming shields.

Four, yes a stam nb should be hitting 1100 mag regen if they are not running a gank build. However, a gank build will not have that sustain. That said, a stam nb can't spam it more than 4 times in a row. That is not to say that they can't use it more often then 4 times in a row without having to wait for regen to do it again. Not to mention when they do that they No longer have the resources for fear and other magicka buffs they need for some time while waiting to regen. Stam can use cloak when they want because they manage their resources and don't spam magicka abilities to often. Streamers are very good at managing their resources and controlling a fight leading them to be able to use cloak when they need to.

Five, when making a point such as the one you are making you should not have to say something is not true because a particular build can do it. Ya a nb running willows path can maximize recovery when using drink. Yoh know the odds of running into a nb running willows path. They will lose out on many other more worthy sets. I would also point out that any stam build can run that set and drink. Any stam build can get that recovery for magicka without blinking an eye. Keeping magicka recovery up for a stam Sorc is just as important. Again, 1000 regen for any stam build running drink is easy and does not require much.

Last, I don't necessarily agree with everything the person you are talking with has said. However, I do agree that nb are the most balance class. Although some skills need to be tweaked depending on what balances are done, I do believe other classes need to be buffed not nb needing nerf. Some skills like ambush and supreme attack need to be reworked. For instance, if the champ points are not balanced an stam builds run rampant still them ambush should lose empowering buff and take a slight dps reduction. Suprise attack should lose the stunning and the debuff but keep its raw damage. But again depends on how they balance the game.

You're on denial too. And no i don't base my arguments on streamers, it's just that even them are now complaining about what we others have been complaining about for months. It's not the most balanced class, it's the most powerfull and the only way to fix it is by nerfin them. A question for you, do you really not think NB are OP? We both know the answer, and more than 50% players know it too and that's why all you see in cyrodiil are NB. Or you think it's because paying an assasin is more fun for the vast majority of players?

O geez one of those people. I'm right and your wrong no matter what you say. Good grief. I don't think nb are any more op than a mag sorc. I conceded the fact that some abilities need to be reworked. And if you notice the abilities I mentioned are the ones that lead people to say they are op. Yes, some skills need to be reworked SLIGHTLY. Hiwever, I am a firm believer that classes should not be nerfed but other classes should be buffed to be stronger. I said this before they nerfed DK into the griund. They should have reworked some of their skills and then buff the other classes. Did they do that....no. and now here we are dealing with similar issues so it is time for a different approach than nerfing everything.

And don't throw around arbitrary percentages. Yes a large portion of the population. Is using a stam nb these days. But we have no numbers so don't give me numbers. That said, many people run a stam nb cause it is the min max fotm. Other portions of people run it cause they heard that it's the best. People don't realize there are many other cheezing builds out there because less people talk about it. Such as a stam DK one hand shield. Or a magicka Templar. Or a magicka sorc. All builds are equally cheezy and op in their own ways.

It is not that I am in denial, but that I understand all the various aspects of the game and singling out a stam nb is just the fotm complaint.