Hey you.. yes YOU.. HEY!... stay TIGHT.. stick with the BALL... don't stray!!!

Synnkar · December 2015

Quick foreword: I'm in support of making some change that punishes super-tight ball groups and the brain-dead gameplay they motivate. Whether that's AoE cap removal or some other similar mechanic change, I'll leave it to the experts who think about this stuff full-time... other than to say that the solution should NOT be siege machinery. That's just plain boring.

Now onto an anecdote that left me laughing out loud... here's what's wrong with the current game in Cyro:

This is about a month ago, I'm running Cyro with a guild. In command is what sounds like a 18-24 year old (I am older) doing a decent job in general. The gameplay is boring, we all spam abilities but we are succeeding, so hey, it's OK for a short amount of time relaxing. As long as I get my occasional skilled-gameplay fix, I won't complain. So I venture outside the zerg group every now and then, find myself 2-3 person skirmishes around the keeps chasing down stragglers and have a good time.

An hour into the campaign, I get a phone call and drop the headset. We're taking a resource (the whole group is basically waiting on the flag mindlessly at this point) and, on auto-pilot, I venture away from the group and find myself in a 1v2, getting ganked. I dodge, jump, line-of-sight and do whatever to survive and eventually take them both down. What a thrill, I'm having fun. I get back on TS and here's the conversation that follows:

Leader: Synn... where are you? Hey, where are you? You hearing me Synn? Why are you over there? WHY ARE YOU OVER THERE??? Guys, we need to stay *tight*, stick with the ball, stop straying!

Me: Oh, was just getting ganked over here - ha ha ha - took em down though. Was also on the phone. Coming over.

Leader: Uhm.... Do you know why you were getting ganked? Do you? Do you? Do you know why bro?... Tell me. Come on, tell me. [Long pause]... Come on tell me bro, tell me. I'll tell you: It's because you strayed from the group...

Me: Uhm... ???? LOL. I don't even know what the #$%^ to say to that. Mind your manners first of all, know your place; I am not your child. Second, I wasn't complaining... who's to say I did not enjoy that little side skirmish? Third, WTF, we ought to be having a friendly activity, not a freaking bootcamp. @#$% this ***, good luck to y'all, I'm out.

I leave the group right away and haven't raided with that guild ever since. What I didn't say, because I didn't want to upset the folks, was: Do you even hear yourself and notice how pathetic you sound? You are basically telling your group to NOT play the game, NOT to strive to be better individual players, but instead to stay together where it's safe and hit the same button repeatedly like a brain-dead zombie all to get a bit more AP. Not only that, but you're actually actively discouraging the players who are trying to become better.. I am pretty sure I hit quite a bit above my weight in that entire session.

frozywozy · December 2015

What is the goal of this post ? Are you blaming that guild in particular ? Are you blaming the "Stack on crown strategy" and are trying to change people's mind about it ? Are you just pissed off and had to vent ? Just wondering.

The guild leader was definitely wrong giving you a hard time about it since you were on the phone and successfully defended yourself anyway. My recommendations :

1) Next time, say on TS that u're having a phone call or write Brb phone in party chat.
2) Don't join organized ball groups.

Xexpo · December 2015

Just because your group leader was a dingleberry .. doesn't mean every group in pvp is run like that.

Telel · December 2015

This one thinks you should perhaps show everyone how it's done and lead a group of your own.

They are sure your fine understanding of doing things the right way will let you outperform most. Especially those whom are to selfishly fixated on trying to play with all those other people and should have known that turning off auto run, and communicating a sudden need to AFK is simply not a simple task.

Khajiit shall now be eagerly awaiting the results of your new glorious enterprise.

Synnkar · December 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

What is the goal of this post ? Are you blaming that guild in particular ? Are you blaming the "Stack on crown strategy" and are trying to change people's mind about it ? Are you just pissed off and had to vent ? Just wondering.

The guild leader was definitely wrong giving you a hard time about it since you were on the phone and successfully defended yourself anyway. My recommendations :

1) Next time, say on TS that u're having a phone call or write Brb phone in party chat.
2) Don't join organized ball groups.

Hmm. I made this post specifically to:

Motivate people to step outside brain-dead modes of play, if only once in a while, to get better at the game as individuals. Maybe if they see how bad they look in such anecdotes...
Give another outcome example of how zerg gameplay dumbs the game down and degrades its quality as further support for the business case around motivating smaller, skills-based gameplay. Perhaps I catch the attention of a couple of devs and it's one more stone in the bucket for their business case...
Entertain readers of my post, a very ESO-interested community, as I think the anecdote shows how hilarious and appalling people behave in communities like this. Maybe if we ridicule such behavior, people will learn to do better next time?

It wasn't at all to complain about my guild or the activity. Clearly, what they want is the organized bootcamp-style group mentality and I'm not a good fit for that, which is why I haven't joined them ever since. To each his own.

Edit: Forgot to say, yes I am blaming the "Stack on crown" gameplay and the kind of player environment it has created.

Sallington · December 2015

All big groups I've grouped with have been "stay on crown or GTFO" groups. That's pretty much the only point of being in a group that larger, since their main purpose is to "exploit" the AOE cap mechanic.

I've been having much more fun just flying solo or in a very small group, hopping around to wherever the action is.

Synnkar · December 2015

Telel wrote: »

This one thinks you should perhaps show everyone how it's done and lead a group of your own.

They are sure your fine understanding of doing things the right way will let you outperform most. Especially those whom are to selfishly fixated on trying to play with all those other people and should have known that turning off auto run, and communicating a sudden need to AFK is simply not a simple task.

Khajiit shall now be eagerly awaiting the results of your new glorious enterprise.

Just to clarify; I was not AFK, just couldn't hear TS for a while. I was also never a detriment to their group; I always stay nearby and maintain good situational awareness of what they're doing.

Synnkar · December 2015

kaer426 wrote: »

Just because your group leader was a dingleberry .. doesn't mean every group in pvp is run like that.

Yeah, for sure not. If my work schedule were a bit more predictable, I would actually want to create a guild for small-squad cyro/IC PvP gameplay and make it happen in NA/PC/AD where I play. It'd be really cool to have a band of similar minded folks to form small teams with. This seems to happen more in DC for some reason.

Alas, I wouldn't be able to sustain it for now. I'm also not sure if I am skilled enough yet to be a leader in such a venture... maybe in a few months.

Synnkar · December 2015

Sallington wrote: »

All big groups I've grouped with have been "stay on crown or GTFO" groups. That's pretty much the only point of being in a group that larger, since their main purpose is to "exploit" the AOE cap mechanic.

I've been having much more fun just flying solo or in a very small group, hopping around to wherever the action is.

Totally agree. That's exactly what I've been doing. I try to form groups of up to 4 if I can find nearby interested players, though that happens rarely.

maxjapank · December 2015

Synnkar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

What is the goal of this post ? Are you blaming that guild in particular ? Are you blaming the "Stack on crown strategy" and are trying to change people's mind about it ? Are you just pissed off and had to vent ? Just wondering.

The guild leader was definitely wrong giving you a hard time about it since you were on the phone and successfully defended yourself anyway. My recommendations :

1) Next time, say on TS that u're having a phone call or write Brb phone in party chat.
2) Don't join organized ball groups.

Hmm. I made this post specifically to:
Motivate people to step outside brain-dead modes of play, if only once in a while, to get better at the game as individuals. Maybe if they see how bad they look in such anecdotes...

Give another outcome example of how zerg gameplay dumbs the game down and degrades its quality as further support for the business case around motivating smaller, skills-based gameplay. Perhaps I catch the attention of a couple of devs and it's one more stone in the bucket for their business case...

Entertain readers of my post, a very ESO-interested community, as I think the anecdote shows how hilarious and appalling people behave in communities like this. Maybe if we ridicule such behavior, people will learn to do better next time?

It wasn't at all to complain about my guild or the activity. Clearly, what they want is the organized bootcamp-style group mentality and I'm not a good fit for that, which is why I haven't joined them ever since. To each his own.

Edit: Forgot to say, yes I am blaming the "Stack on crown" gameplay and the kind of player environment it has created.

You obviously haven't really played much with a guild pvp group. There is a lot more strategy and synergy involved than you give credit for. When you get happy about winning 1v2, we also get happy about 12v24. That said, members of my guild enjoy all forms of pvp. Some enjoy solo, some enjoy 5-man groups. Don't get angry or put down others for your bad experience. No one is expecting you to play in a group, though that is what an MMO game is.

Synnkar · December 2015

maxjapank wrote: »

You obviously haven't really played much with a guild pvp group. There is a lot more strategy and synergy involved than you give credit for. When you get happy about winning 1v2, we also get happy about 12v24. That said, members of my guild enjoy all forms of pvp. Some enjoy solo, some enjoy 5-man groups. Don't get angry or put down others for your bad experience. No one is expecting you to play in a group, though that is what an MMO game is.

I would say that I have played enough (i.e. many many hours) to make observations. I fully submit that there's skill involved in large group pvp play. It's mostly on the leader's part though - it's definitely not easy to become a good director of people and action in pvp; it doesn't happen overnight. The followers, however, have a low skill cap: Learning to fall in with the team, follow instructions effectively, learn keep mechanics and usage of skills to a much lesser degree than what you see in small scale.

Heindrich · December 2015

So... basically you are a solo warrior who cannot listen to instruction and thinks you are special and shouldn't be told what to do when you are not performing your role in an organised raid. If everyone in that raid behaved like you, it might as well just be a pug group and it will get wrecked by every organised group it faces.

I see nothing wrong with what the raid leader said. It is impossible to lead people like you and if you didn't ragequit u'd have been kicked anyway.

Whether you run in a small skirmish group or an organised AoE ball, an effective group needs to obey whoever is leading.

BossTuggles · December 2015

@Synnkar you sir sound like a candidate for Fengrush, Inc.

Synnkar · December 2015

BossTuggles wrote: »

@Synnkar you sir sound like a candidate for Fengrush, Inc.

Haha, yeah, I suspect we'd get along. I've fought you guys on many occasions.. just wish I had a similar small team of my own for a chance to survive

Radnil · December 2015

Just hang in there till battlegrounds come out #zergs smergs

Manoekin · December 2015

Do what you want as long as you don't die. If you start dying away from the group then it's a problem, but if you're good enough well why not.

Synnkar · December 2015

Heindrich wrote: »

So... basically you are a solo warrior who cannot listen to instruction and thinks you are special and shouldn't be told what to do when you are not performing your role in an organised raid. If everyone in that raid behaved like you, it might as well just be a pug group and it will get wrecked by every organised group it faces.

I see nothing wrong with what the raid leader said. It is impossible to lead people like you and if you didn't ragequit u'd have been kicked anyway.

Whether you run in a small skirmish group or an organised AoE ball, an effective group needs to obey whoever is leading.

You're not wrong on following leader's instructions. However, I think that leaders need to build into their groups a decent amount of individual performance and some federated authority to maneuver. I have noticed occasional DC large groups manage to do this well. They are not balls yet they are relatively large, they have some very strong players (if you peel them off and fight them 1v1, good chance they'll still wreck you) and I've seen them utterly dominate equal numbers.

Not only would this make the game more fun for participants, but I think it has the potential to outperform mindless zombie ball groups.

Telel · December 2015

Telel thinks that before one can unleash the falcons first one must herd the ducks.

Sadly a lot of ducks think they are falcons, and instead end up becoming turkeys. Angry, resentful, turkeys who are mostly tasteless white meat you end up sending home with relatives you don't want to share the good leftovers with.

This one also thinks other things about some people wanting to be the best rooster but feels that analogy can wait for more amusing circumstances.

Also yes, khajiit did skip lunch. How did you know?

Synnkar · December 2015

Telel wrote: »

Telel thinks that before one can unleash the falcons first one must herd the ducks.

Sadly a lot of ducks think they are falcons, and instead end up becoming turkeys. Angry, resentful, turkeys who are mostly tasteless white meat you end up sending home with relatives you don't want to share the good leftovers with.

This one also thinks other things about some people wanting to be the best rooster but feels that analogy can wait for more amusing circumstances.

Also yes, khajiit did skip lunch. How did you know?

lol. I'm not sure if that's what you're implying, but let me get ahead of it and be clear: I'm not nearly a top tier player. I have been getting better, but there are plenty of situations where I get wrecked by others who're better. Individual skill level, whether it's advanced, mediocre or beginner, has nothing to do with my story here

Ghost-Shot · December 2015

Synnkar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

What is the goal of this post ? Are you blaming that guild in particular ? Are you blaming the "Stack on crown strategy" and are trying to change people's mind about it ? Are you just pissed off and had to vent ? Just wondering.

The guild leader was definitely wrong giving you a hard time about it since you were on the phone and successfully defended yourself anyway. My recommendations :

1) Next time, say on TS that u're having a phone call or write Brb phone in party chat.
2) Don't join organized ball groups.

Hmm. I made this post specifically to:
Motivate people to step outside brain-dead modes of play, if only once in a while, to get better at the game as individuals. Maybe if they see how bad they look in such anecdotes...

Give another outcome example of how pug gameplay dumbs the game down and degrades its quality as further support for the business case around motivating smaller, skills-based gameplay. Perhaps I catch the attention of a couple of devs and it's one more stone in the bucket for their business case...

Entertain readers of my post, a very ESO-interested community, as I think the anecdote shows how hilarious and appalling people behave in communities like this. Maybe if we ridicule such behavior, people will learn to do better next time?

It wasn't at all to complain about my guild or the activity. Clearly, what they want is the organized bootcamp-style group mentality and I'm not a good fit for that, which is why I haven't joined them ever since. To each his own.

Edit: Forgot to say, yes I am blaming the "Stack on crown" gameplay and the kind of player environment it has created.

Fixed the post for you, be in a better group next time.

MormondPayne_EP · December 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

What is the goal of this post ? Are you blaming that guild in particular ? Are you blaming the "Stack on crown strategy" and are trying to change people's mind about it ? Are you just pissed off and had to vent ? Just wondering.

The guild leader was definitely wrong giving you a hard time about it since you were on the phone and successfully defended yourself anyway. My recommendations :

1) Next time, say on TS that u're having a phone call or write Brb phone in party chat.
2) Don't join organized ball groups.

OPTION 2, everyone needs to go with option 2... these ball groups are killing the game.

mchermie · December 2015

L2Followcrown

Recremen · December 2015

Sounds like a lot of communication problems here. Group leader should have made it clearer that they're running tight and expecting folks to move as a unit. On the other hand, you're way off base implying that people who stack tightly, move together, and coordinate are somehow mindless. Guilds who manage to coordinate well are fantastic to run with and can win fights even when outnumbered, in spite of the way the current mechanics punishes lower numbers. Honestly the people who are encouraging mindless play are the ones who let their group members run off and do whatever regardless of what's going on in the field. That kind of thing loses fights, and it's fine if you like that, but a group that doesn't move together is a group that isn't coordinating or synergizing, and they're going to get wiped by a group that works together.

maxjapank · December 2015

Recremen wrote: »

Sounds like a lot of communication problems here. Group leader should have made it clearer that they're running tight and expecting folks to move as a unit. On the other hand, you're way off base implying that people who stack tightly, move together, and coordinate are somehow mindless. Guilds who manage to coordinate well are fantastic to run with and can win fights even when outnumbered, in spite of the way the current mechanics punishes lower numbers. Honestly the people who are encouraging mindless play are the ones who let their group members run off and do whatever regardless of what's going on in the field. That kind of thing loses fights, and it's fine if you like that, but a group that doesn't move together is a group that isn't coordinating or synergizing, and they're going to get wiped by a group that works together.

100% this.

Satiar · December 2015

If people wanna do thier own thing they can do it outside my raid. OP sounds like a decent player but if you're in someone's group it is at the very least polite to play as they play.

I have some players that mostly do their own thing inside my raid but they arent newcomers: they're people I've played with a long time and trust they know what they're doing. First you play as a team, than the individual talent and proficiencies can shine.

BRogueNZ · December 2015

Synnkar wrote: »

...

I can understand where you're coming from. I've been playing ungrouped a lot more for various reasons, one of which is like to make up my own mind and another that I really should get better at looking after myself.

As a group healer it can get very boring sometimes disheartening and its more fun to not give a poo occasionally . There are times though when the map/faction needs actual results and you have to be with the group and listen to grumpy crown.

I'm being hypocritical because at times I'm terrible at it and being AFK.

Winnamine · December 2015

I get it, in your case the guild leader sounds like he overreacted and was kinda a jerk about it...BUT
1. Any organized group you're in, if they're being serious, will want you to be with the group, that's the point of grouping
2. Leading is a tough job, and getting 24 ppl (or any number, honestly) to stay on crown is like herding a bunch of ADD cats
3. Sounds like you were new to the guild, or at least not a regular with them, so you're going to get less leeway
4. You took care of yourself and didn't die, and your group wasn't bombed and didn't need you while you weren't there bc you wandered off, but that isn't always the case, in fact, usually if someone wanders off and gets ganked alone by 2 players, they die and the group has to try to go get them.

Group play can be very fun and being actually good at it takes quite a bit of skill. Saying that being part of a larger team means you don't have to be any good is asinine; working as a team takes its own set of skills, which is why there are some extremely good groups, and some extremely bad ones. Every elite pvp guild in the game has run large groups, but then, so have most pug guilds. Idk what guild you were running with, but almost every good guild, if they know you and you prove to them that you know what you're doing, will basically let you do your own thing as long as it doesn't hurt the group.

allen-iverson · December 2015

if you stray from group and die you are a burden to the entire raid. if you're able to stray from group and contract back to crown when necessary sure why not.

Glaiceana · December 2015

Firstly, your title reminded me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbwalf8-q0k

Secondly, I'm sorry that you had that experience. Some people just take things way too seriously. They kill the fun for others.

IxSTALKERxI · December 2015

Synnkar wrote: »

NOT to strive to be better individual players, but instead to stay together where it's safe and hit the same button repeatedly like a brain-dead zombie all to get a bit more AP. Not only that, but you're actually actively discouraging the players who are trying to become better

Not everyone can do 40,000+ DPS over a 10 second period whilst avoiding being insta-gibbed by 20 tornado's and prox dets. To label group players as brain-dead zombies is pretty inaccurate, there is a big skill gap between good group players and bad ones, just the same as in small scale pvp.

Stikato · December 2015

I can't stand playing in blob/ball groups. I learned that within 5 minutes of being in one the first time. So I stopped joining them. My decision has nothing to do with any judgement on the skill level of different playstyles.

I just didn't like having to stack on crown and not being able to freelance. People that do, they are cool in my book. Just not my cup of tea.