Stamina based skills doing magicka damage.

Barlthump · December 2015

Hi everyone,

As the title suggests, is there any official reasoning as to why some skills scale of weapon damage and stamina but deals magical damage. I really find that super irritating cause why would I ever use killers blade as compared to executioner. And somehow all ultimates seem to do magic damage minus dragon leap. I really feel that this is a huge problem cause it doesn't help when I have armor pen and my skills don't seem to be hitting harder. Could we maybe make most class skills have a stam morph that does physical damage instead of magical damage please.

stevepdodson_ESO888 · December 2015

Barlthump wrote: »

Hi everyone,

As the title suggests, is there any official reasoning as to why some skills scale of weapon damage and stamina but deals magical damage. I really find that super irritating cause why would I ever use killers blade as compared to executioner. And somehow all ultimates seem to do magic damage minus dragon leap. I really feel that this is a huge problem cause it doesn't help when I have armor pen and my skills don't seem to be hitting harder. Could we maybe make most class skills have a stam morph that does physical damage instead of magical damage please.

Beast Trap being a perfect example of that.

lolo_01b16_ESO · December 2015

I'm not sure if that's a good idea in terms of balancing. Just imagine camouflaged hunter hitting for 50% more than it currently does for most builds (25% from mighty and 25% from not being mitigated by hardy).

Barlthump · December 2015

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's a good idea in terms of balancing. Just imagine camouflaged hunter hitting for 50% more than it currently does for most builds (25% from mighty and 25% from not being mitigated by hardy).

I get where you're coming from but for class skills that only do magical damage is quite ridiculousm. From a pve point of view it's really gimping the damage output. And changing the CLASS skills shouldn't affect pvp as much. It's quite irritating to not use some skills when they can synergize well with the build. Yeah we don't need to change camof hunter per say cause they can use the buffed magic damage from stealth on a camone hunter proc

Rune_Relic · December 2015

Barlthump wrote: »

Hi everyone,

As the title suggests, is there any official reasoning as to why some skills scale of weapon damage and stamina but deals magical damage. I really find that super irritating cause why would I ever use killers blade as compared to executioner. And somehow all ultimates seem to do magic damage minus dragon leap. I really feel that this is a huge problem cause it doesn't help when I have armor pen and my skills don't seem to be hitting harder. Could we maybe make most class skills have a stam morph that does physical damage instead of magical damage please.

Because
all class skills were originally magicka based.
all weapon skills were stamina based..except staffs
Vampire / Mages guild - magicka based
Werewolf / Fighters guild - stamina based

Its just a leftover relic of trying to balance out magicka and stamina builds.
Stamina builds at one time just meant you gimped yourself and was laughed at by everyone.
I played them regardless.

TL;DR
Stamina / Magicka balance wasn't thought out very well as an initial concept.
Now we have a mish mash of quick fixes to compensate.
And no real all encompassing balance structure.

Tankqull · December 2015

Barlthump wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's a good idea in terms of balancing. Just imagine camouflaged hunter hitting for 50% more than it currently does for most builds (25% from mighty and 25% from not being mitigated by hardy).

I get where you're coming from but for class skills that only do magical damage is quite ridiculousm. From a pve point of view it's really gimping the damage output. And changing the CLASS skills shouldn't affect pvp as much. It's quite irritating to not use some skills when they can synergize well with the build. Yeah we don't need to change camof hunter per say cause they can use the buffed magic damage from stealth on a camone hunter proc

you do not want soul harvest to deal physical dmg...
actually the only class ability not being physical dmg where balance wise it is not overkill is the stamina morph of jabs.
but it would make no sense as you "magicaly" transform your weapon into a holyspear how in hell does that again do physical dmg?

CyrusArya · December 2015

I hear you, but they can't turn certain NB skills to deal physical damage without tweaking the tool tip numbers. By any count, killers blade and death stroke hit more than hard enough as it is on a typical glass cannon build. You can't make em deal physical damage without nerfing the tool tips, not if you care for balance. Honestly though, I personally like that dragon leap is the only class ulti to scale off physical. Gives Stam DKs a unique flavor.

ostrapz · December 2015

Saying things shouldnt move to phtsical based because it would e too strong is a weak arguement. Soul harvest does hit hard still , but it should just be adjusted with physical damage to b around the same. Sounds stupid but some moves suffer cuz of this magic damage. For example, power extraction is a nb move, morphs to scale off stamina, stays magic damage. This move is horrible, the only class aoe for nb, and easily inferior to steel tornado. Mine hits barely above 2000 in pve , i shudder to think of what it does pve

MrGigglypants · December 2015

CyrusArya wrote: »

I hear you, but they can't turn certain NB skills to deal physical damage without tweaking the tool tip numbers. By any count, killers blade and death stroke hit more than hard enough as it is on a typical glass cannon build. You can't make em deal physical damage without nerfing the tool tips, not if you care for balance. Honestly though, I personally like that dragon leap is the only class ulti to scale off physical. Gives Stam DKs a unique flavor.

Magic nightblades go therma anyway so tool tip means squat it's just an excuse for a poorly designed concept.

Tankqull · December 2015

ostrapz wrote: »

Saying things shouldnt move to phtsical based because it would e too strong is a weak arguement. Soul harvest does hit hard still , but it should just be adjusted with physical damage to b around the same. Sounds stupid but some moves suffer cuz of this magic damage. For example, power extraction is a nb move, morphs to scale off stamina, stays magic damage. This move is horrible, the only class aoe for nb, and easily inferior to steel tornado. Mine hits barely above 2000 in pve , i shudder to think of what it does pve

even with physical dmg its far inferior to ST as its only covers 50% of ST area, still does 15-120%less dmg and thus is completly futile.

Alucardo · December 2015

No thanks. I have enough trouble with Nightblades bursting me down from stealth in 2 hits.

Barlthump · December 2015

By all means tweak the numbers abit. But at least let it do physical damage. I'm not saying just convert it. Tweaking the numbers are just fine. I would like to go into a pve fight where I just don't spin to win all day long. And those who get burst down in 2 hits. Please honestly tell me. Are you also doing what we glass cannon builds do. If you put 58 points into magicka and no points into health. You definitely know that you deserve the 2 hit deaths.

I55UE5 · December 2015

Ya lets make all stamina cost skills do physical damage so everyone can load all their points in that one champion point tree. Diversity is lame.

Septimus_Magna · December 2015

Like stam builds dont have enough burst already. The main reason why stam DKs are so strong atm is bc their Dragon Leap does physical dmg. Also any stam build can choose to become werewolf and do physical dmg while in ww-form.

ostrapz · December 2015

@Tankqull lets say the major burtality buff is equal in comparison to the execute from st, in that case the extra range should equal to more damage from power extraction.. I think everyone agrees class skills should be better than the weapon variants, but thts my point. Maybe with physical damage it would be better. I understand everyones concern tht this adds more damage and "less diversity" butthats an issue stemming from other problems. My soul harvest will never hit a 9k , if have to wear light armor to try to boost my spell pen to inscrease my ultimate strength. Build diversity shouldnt mean i need to get everything for my 1 build, but that other people can have various options when creating their build. If i want max damage i should be able to go all stam and put every single point in 1 star of each tree for pure damage if i choose. The real problem is that if i do that i should be vulnerable to getting ripped from damage from builds that dont spec damage which is not the case.

ostrapz · December 2015

And as said by many people in other forum posts, there is no rival to match the stamina side of hardy.

SkylarkAU · December 2015

Inb4 ambush wrecking blow combo spam

OGLezard · December 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

Barlthump wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's a good idea in terms of balancing. Just imagine camouflaged hunter hitting for 50% more than it currently does for most builds (25% from mighty and 25% from not being mitigated by hardy).

I get where you're coming from but for class skills that only do magical damage is quite ridiculousm. From a pve point of view it's really gimping the damage output. And changing the CLASS skills shouldn't affect pvp as much. It's quite irritating to not use some skills when they can synergize well with the build. Yeah we don't need to change camof hunter per say cause they can use the buffed magic damage from stealth on a camone hunter proc

you do not want soul harvest to deal physical dmg...
actually the only class ability not being physical dmg where balance wise it is not overkill is the stamina morph of jabs.
but it would make no sense as you "magicaly" transform your weapon into a holyspear how in hell does that again do physical dmg?

And how does flexing your arms well screaming heal you??? How does stamina let you teleport hrough the air??

Stamina doing ANYTHING related to Magick is so stupid. Magicka is magicka for a reason. ZOS is butchering that reason. Oh, here, turn yourself into a f-ING lightning form using.....stamina......oh you need heals, use stamina to heal yourself for a crap ton over 5 seconds..... I could go on and on but you get the point.

People want stamina morphs then those skills should be graphically something no magick spell looks like so it can be differentiated. This is my biggest gripe with this game. Well....one of my top 5 lol

Tryxus · December 2015

Class skills cost Magicka and do Magicka Damage, with a few of them having Stamina Morphs.

At the same time, we have 4 weapon skill lines with skills that have similar effects (Execute, Gap Closer,...) to certain class skills

Magicka builds: 3 Class Skill Lines + 2 Weapon (Resto & Destro)
Stamina Builds: 4 Weapons + Stamina Morphs

So it's sorta balanced

The Stamina based skills that do Magic Damage are mostly from the Fighters Guild skill tree, and the reason the extra damage is Magic Based is to prevent them from being OP. If a Stam Build uses Silver Shards, the Physical Damage it does is pretty good alrdy, but if the extra damage the skill does is Physical as well... OUCH So I guess they made it Magic to compensate it a bit

And like I learned on another thread: the CP system needs a Physical Reduction perk (Reduce Physical Damage, like Hardy does for Magic Damage)

There's also the matter on Ultimates, with all but 1 doing Magic Damage. Personally, I think ZOS should reconsider bringing back the Weapon Ultimates that do Physical Damage. Especially if that Physical Reduction perk gets added

Solanum · December 2015

OGLezard wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Barlthump wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's a good idea in terms of balancing. Just imagine camouflaged hunter hitting for 50% more than it currently does for most builds (25% from mighty and 25% from not being mitigated by hardy).

I get where you're coming from but for class skills that only do magical damage is quite ridiculousm. From a pve point of view it's really gimping the damage output. And changing the CLASS skills shouldn't affect pvp as much. It's quite irritating to not use some skills when they can synergize well with the build. Yeah we don't need to change camof hunter per say cause they can use the buffed magic damage from stealth on a camone hunter proc

you do not want soul harvest to deal physical dmg...
actually the only class ability not being physical dmg where balance wise it is not overkill is the stamina morph of jabs.
but it would make no sense as you "magicaly" transform your weapon into a holyspear how in hell does that again do physical dmg?

And how does flexing your arms well screaming heal you??? How does stamina let you teleport hrough the air??

Stamina doing ANYTHING related to Magick is so stupid. Magicka is magicka for a reason. ZOS is butchering that reason. Oh, here, turn yourself into a f-ING lightning form using.....stamina......oh you need heals, use stamina to heal yourself for a crap ton over 5 seconds..... I could go on and on but you get the point.

People want stamina morphs then those skills should be graphically something no magick spell looks like so it can be differentiated. This is my biggest gripe with this game. Well....one of my top 5 lol

I agree, it would be nice if stamina morphs actually looked like physical actions.
Stamina version of teleport? Make it a leap animation.

Perhaps for heals an animation where the character pauses to regain composure, after a moment to recuperate.

Instead, sadly enough we're all forced to play half mages.

UltimaJoe777 · December 2015

Tooltips can be a bit... confusing at times. I can personally assure you through testing though that Stamina Skills that say they deal "Magic Damage" do indeed scale off of Weapon Damage and Stamina, such as Killer's Blade.

Barlthump · December 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Tooltips can be a bit... confusing at times. I can personally assure you through testing though that Stamina Skills that say they deal "Magic Damage" do indeed scale off of Weapon Damage and Stamina, such as Killer's Blade.

Yes they scale off weapon damage and max stam but the end result is magic damage. What I ask for is the end result to do physical damage. And once again I wish to reiterate that this is not a ask for buff or troll postman it's just a question that I have. There seems to be no logic in them doing this. If it's for balancing issues that seems abit too troll for me. Armor pen doesn't help any of the skills that does magical damage and there won't be a point in running those skills. Making them do physical damage would open up a world of diversity itself. Please don't only look at this from a pvp point of view. Look at it from a pve point of view as well. Since these skills only do magical damage they dont nearly do enough damage. I find it hard to get pledges when people ask what class I play when I zone chat v16 stamina nightblade lfg.

Fully buffed I do 13 -16k dps on bosses while I have to go through so much rotations and what nots while a magicka sorc just pops a shield, strolls off stupid (red aoe), and just overloads the boss and boasts he did 25- 35k dps just by using light attacks with the OP molag kena set. How is this even remotely fair to stam classes in pve.

J2JMC · December 2015

I55UE5 wrote: »

Ya lets make all stamina cost skills do physical damage so everyone can load all their points in that one champion point tree. Diversity is lame.

Are you under the impression most stamina builds aren't putting their first 100 blue cp into mighty?

Cathexis · December 2015

Stam skills should base off physical damage physical crit.

The alternative is I can legitimately make the argument that proxy det should do physical damage, but how much you want to bet magicka users would poop a brick over it?

Kammakazi · December 2015

We should have a Magicka-based ability that does Physical Damage that scales with Health.

zyk · December 2015

IMO, the reason is bandaid on top of bandaid on top of bandaid, etc...

I think it's pretty clear by now that the PC launch of ESO was premature. The combat system was tremendously out of balance at launch. Two of the four classes were also significantly broken.

For example, (at launch) not only did almost all ultimates do magic damage, damage also scaled off max magicka and spell damage -- even for pure stamina builds.

The ineptitude of that is baffling. It either means the combat team is completely incompetent or extremely over-worked. I like to think the latter was true.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · December 2015

Thaumaturge is in the same tree as mighty, increases poison damage (bows) and grants physical damage passives... The only classes this isn't relevant to are dragon knights (who can get a 100% physical damage build outside of fg skills) and sorcerers ... And to be frank, if overload had a physical damage morph there'd be no point in magicka sorcs outside of hardened ward

Barlthump · December 2015

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thaumaturge is in the same tree as mighty, increases poison damage (bows) and grants physical damage passives... The only classes this isn't relevant to are dragon knights (who can get a 100% physical damage build outside of fg skills) and sorcerers ... And to be frank, if overload had a physical damage morph there'd be no point in magicka sorcs outside of hardened ward

Yes thaumaturge is in the same tree as mighty. But since the removal of morag tong, that build has died off so fast that it isn't even funny. Bow damage is so gimped in pve that it's not even funny. Yes sheer venom is a good replacement but the difference is that if 100 points are in thaumaturge, I can only play a specific type of build. Bye bye, diversity. Let's look at the CP Tree. If I put 100 into thaumaturge. That's the only boost I can get there for skills. But if it axtually did physical damage I pump it into mighty, I can also use the armor pen bonus.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · December 2015

Barlthump wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thaumaturge is in the same tree as mighty, increases poison damage (bows) and grants physical damage passives... The only classes this isn't relevant to are dragon knights (who can get a 100% physical damage build outside of fg skills) and sorcerers ... And to be frank, if overload had a physical damage morph there'd be no point in magicka sorcs outside of hardened ward

Yes thaumaturge is in the same tree as mighty. But since the removal of morag tong, that build has died off so fast that it isn't even funny. Bow damage is so gimped in pve that it's not even funny. Yes sheer venom is a good replacement but the difference is that if 100 points are in thaumaturge, I can only play a specific type of build. Bye bye, diversity. Let's look at the CP Tree. If I put 100 into thaumaturge. That's the only boost I can get there for skills. But if it axtually did physical damage I pump it into mighty, I can also use the armor pen bonus.

Well you actually do have options and therefore diversity atm, you can pump points into Thaum and use class skills and maybe a bow, or you can pump points into mighty and get a double dipped damage bonus (lightattacks+weaponskills) that makes up for the 25% less damage on ults. Like, a nightblade with 100 points into thaum using surprise attack (magic damage), assassins will (highest stat scaling magic damage) and killers blade (stam morph execute magic damage) is perfectly fine... as is the same nightblade with 100 points shoved into mighty using weapon based skills.