Why Dragons should not be in ESO, and if added, how?

MrDerrikk · December 2015

I'm making this post because of this thread:

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236686/dragons

and because the OP posted this reply to someone:

NetoJON wrote: »

Some people dont agree... well make another post about it... and leave mine... this was not meant for you...

So in order to not go and start a flame war (please don't), here is the thread to have a detailed, Lore-abiding discussion about why Dragons should not be added into the game, and your thoughts as to how they might be added if ZOS decided to create a DLC based around them.

CJohnson81 · December 2015

@MrDerrikk You're a good man. Funny, I see you just mentioned me in that other post

MrDerrikk · December 2015

CJohnson81 wrote: »

@MrDerrikk You're a good man. Funny, I see you just mentioned me in that other post

Thanks, I just thought that Christmas time is supposed to be happy, so if I move the discussion here where it's encouraged then people will be happier

Anyway, here's my ideas on this:

It's perfectly plausible to create a DLC with dragons. However, there would be no need, as they already have a much more interesting roadmap to cover areas of Tamriel that we either haven't seen since the early games or have never seen. A DLC with dragons would most likely be a time-travel one where you fight in the Great Dragon Wars, and is just adding a totally "new" area that has not been presented on the roadmap, creating more work for the devs. I'd also guess they'd be nothing more than slightly adjusted 3D models of Titans.

My reasoning for the Titans is because ESO is a very flat game, so aerial mobs in the Skyrim sense wouldn't work, and because it'd be waaaay easier than creating a brand new 3D model/skeleton/animations.

Edit: Also, there's no reason why we couldn't be able to talk to/even just catch a glimpse of Paarthurnax at the top of the Throat of the World when that area of Skyrim gets added as a DLC; although, as it hasn't been mentioned I don't see it as being something in 2016.

CJohnson81 · December 2015

So I'll jump in on this one, since I think the lore guys will really know much more about this, but I'd like to give a beginner student/ casual lore opinion on the discussion. From my perspective, we've already played the "dragon game" version of TES. I loved the different flavors of each of the games and I understand why the Skyrim story is what it is. I like the variety of the games and I just don't want to play Skyrim Online. There are plenty of other things from the other games that I would like to see resurrected.

Hey how about bringing the unicorn back to Cyrodiil as a special mount that only one person can find, spawning randomly, that gives you some sort of high-speed travel buff? Okay, I'm joking, I thought that unicorn was kinda whack... I like the other truly original fantasy elements the stories bring.

CJohnson81 · December 2015

MrDerrikk wrote: »

It's perfectly plausible to create a DLC with dragons. However, there would be no need, as they already have a much more interesting roadmap to cover areas of Tamriel that we either haven't seen since the early games or have never seen. A DLC with dragons would most likely be a time-travel one where you fight in the Great Dragon Wars, and is just adding a totally "new" area that has not been presented on the roadmap, creating more work for the devs. I'd also guess they'd be nothing more than slightly adjusted 3D models of Titans.

My reasoning for the Titans is because ESO is a very flat game, so aerial mobs in the Skyrim sense wouldn't work, and because it'd be waaaay easier than creating a brand new 3D model/skeleton/animations.

I think there are additional problems because not only is the game flat, but mobs are also confined to a pretty tight area on the ground. The refresh/run back areas are too tight for a dragon battle in the way Skryim allowed them. Think about how far away some of those dragons flew.

CJohnson81 · December 2015

CJohnson81 wrote: »

MrDerrikk wrote: »

It's perfectly plausible to create a DLC with dragons. However, there would be no need, as they already have a much more interesting roadmap to cover areas of Tamriel that we either haven't seen since the early games or have never seen. A DLC with dragons would most likely be a time-travel one where you fight in the Great Dragon Wars, and is just adding a totally "new" area that has not been presented on the roadmap, creating more work for the devs. I'd also guess they'd be nothing more than slightly adjusted 3D models of Titans.

My reasoning for the Titans is because ESO is a very flat game, so aerial mobs in the Skyrim sense wouldn't work, and because it'd be waaaay easier than creating a brand new 3D model/skeleton/animations.

I think there are additional problems because not only is the game flat, but mobs are also confined to a pretty tight area on the ground. The refresh/run back areas are too tight for a dragon battle in the way Skryim allowed them. Think about how far away some of those dragons flew.

Edit: So, I focused on how battles would be way less dynamic than skyrim. If they were to actually include dragons, say Paarthurnax, it may have to be in a non-moving NPC sort of way. At least he could look at little younger.

MrDerrikk · December 2015

CJohnson81 wrote: »

CJohnson81 wrote: »

MrDerrikk wrote: »

It's perfectly plausible to create a DLC with dragons. However, there would be no need, as they already have a much more interesting roadmap to cover areas of Tamriel that we either haven't seen since the early games or have never seen. A DLC with dragons would most likely be a time-travel one where you fight in the Great Dragon Wars, and is just adding a totally "new" area that has not been presented on the roadmap, creating more work for the devs. I'd also guess they'd be nothing more than slightly adjusted 3D models of Titans.

My reasoning for the Titans is because ESO is a very flat game, so aerial mobs in the Skyrim sense wouldn't work, and because it'd be waaaay easier than creating a brand new 3D model/skeleton/animations.

I think there are additional problems because not only is the game flat, but mobs are also confined to a pretty tight area on the ground. The refresh/run back areas are too tight for a dragon battle in the way Skryim allowed them. Think about how far away some of those dragons flew.

Edit: So, I focused on how battles would be way less dynamic than skyrim. If they were to actually include dragons, say Paarthurnax, it may have to be in a non-moving NPC sort of way. At least he could look at little younger.

Not sure how he would look younger as an immortal Dragon, but yes, I edited my above post to reflect the fact that Paarthurnax is alive.

CJohnson81 · December 2015

MrDerrikk wrote: »

Not sure how he would look younger as an immortal Dragon, but yes, I edited my above post to reflect the fact that Paarthurnax is alive.

I thought it was weird that he was immortal yet had torn wings and looked very old in Skyrim.

Forestd16b14_ESO · December 2015

No no no and again no. Dragons are dead and or hiding. They died and or went in hiding in the 1st era and will not under any reason be seen again for over a 1000 years till 200 years into the 4th era.

MrDerrikk · December 2015

CJohnson81 wrote: »

MrDerrikk wrote: »

Not sure how he would look younger as an immortal Dragon, but yes, I edited my above post to reflect the fact that Paarthurnax is alive.

I thought it was weird that he was immortal yet had torn wings and looked very old in Skyrim.

I guess he is immortal, however being alive and moving (unlike the other dragons) the entire time since the Dragon Wars means he was getting beaten up by nature for a whole lot longer.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

No no no and again no. Dragons are dead and or hiding. They died and or went in hiding in the 1st era and will not under any reason be seen again for over a 1000 years till 200 years into the 4th era.

Yes, that's kinda the point of this post

just outright adding them to the game is very wrong according to Lore, however as some people obviously will not let that go I thought it'd be good to discuss how:
1. It is not feasible in the Lore, which is what you said, and
2. Ways in which ZOS could add it without breaking the Lore.

I personally don't care enough about it, so long as it stays true to the Lore.

Sausage · December 2015

Daedric Dragons! We know Tamriel doesnt have Dragons now but how about if they came from Daedric Realms.

MrDerrikk · December 2015

Sausage wrote: »

Daedric Dragons! We know Tamriel doesnt have Dragons now but how about if they came from Daedric Realms.

It's funny you say that, because according to a book snippit (in Coldharbour I think, someone else more learned than me will know), the Daedric Titans are actually Molag Bal's corrupted simulcrums of Dragons; so in a sense, we do have these

hydrocynus · December 2015

MrDerrikk wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Daedric Dragons! We know Tamriel doesnt have Dragons now but how about if they came from Daedric Realms.

It's funny you say that, because according to a book snippit (in Coldharbour I think, someone else more learned than me will know), the Daedric Titans are actually Molag Bal's corrupted simulcrums of Dragons; so in a sense, we do have these

Yes the book you find on the floor where you fight the Ash Titan describes this. It's just like you said.

Robo_Hobo · December 2015

There are a few dragons in hiding, and potentially more we don't know about, so it's possible there could be some oppurtunity for one-off instances of coming across a dragon, but certainly not them flying around brazenly like they do in Skyrim.

Still, unless there's a really good storytelling oppurtunity presented for one to be in ESO, I'd rather they expand on something else. TES is host to a wide array of strange an interesting things that could be used more, I'd like to see more of the Sload for example, but I guess they don't get out much. I'm kind if surprised there weren't any Imga in Valenwood that we saw, as well.

americansteel · December 2015

titan dossier.
molag bal admired the strentgh of nirns dragons able to enslave mortals. trapped a dragon overs years of captivity that dragon was emerged in a pool of azure bluek corruption or molag bal of a dragon, thus titans. along those lines.

americansteel · December 2015

i meant depiction

hydrocynus · December 2015

It would be nice to learn more about the titans in a DLC (perhaps in oblivion somewhere as opposed to on tamriel).

A skill line could also potentially be added if the titans are said to have any specific skills such as the Dragon shouts in skyrim, and just like that they could be found by grinding similar to motif pieces where a group of pieces found could make up a special skill Could be interesting.

In general I wouldn't mind a DLC covering more of oblivion. Would make the tamriel map last Muuuch lIngersoll and would be nice to bump into some of the other Daedric princes and then you can have many titan interactions.

Holycannoli · December 2015

Isn't it kind of lore-breaking that nords, dunmer and argonians are allied?

They can retcon the lore for dragons too. It would make for some epic map-wide events, sort of like the planar invasions in Rift, or Volan. Imagine an occasional dragon attack on a random zone that required a raid or just a zerg to defeat?

Robo_Hobo · December 2015

Holycannoli wrote: »

Isn't it kind of lore-breaking that nords, dunmer and argonians are allied?

They can retcon the lore for dragons too. It would make for some epic map-wide events, sort of like the planar invasions in Rift, or Volan. Imagine an occasional dragon attack on a random zone that required a raid or just a zerg to defeat?

It's not lore-breaking that they're allied by that alone; it would be if they were all happy-go-lucky and best friends, but the way it's implemented works with the lore rather than against it, and shows that there's a lot of tension between them due to their bad blood in the ages of history, and is an alliance formed out of a necessity rather than at leisure.

The same goes for Dragons being in ESO. The fact alone wouldn't break what we know of the lore, it just has to be made to work with it rather than against it, and portraying them just like they are in Skyrim, attacking villages openly and without any care of staying hidden would be going against it. They're near extinction right now, and the Dragonguard is actively hunting them down as they have for hundreds of years, and will continue to do so up until they become the Blades, so they would have to be suicidal to do what you say, and they're intelligent enough to know hiding is their best bet right now. That doesn't mean we couldn't find one though.

Still, it's a better question if Dragons should be portrayed in ESO at all, what would it offer that wasn't already shown in Skyrim, and that can't be better achieved by something that has yet to be utilized to that extent?

altemriel · December 2015

I am not a lore expert at all, but I have a question to people who are more into the lore:

Is the lore complete, or are that just fragments? Because if fragments only, I would not see any point in like this saying it is lore breaking to add dragons to ESO.

I personelly loved the dragons in Skyrim. And yes, I know that there was the whole dragonborn story in Skyrim and that we do not have here now in ESO, few eras back, but:
1. there can be daedric dragons
2. dragons comming from another time together with some questline, DLC possibly
3. we as players can time travel to the era where they were alive
4. a completely new part of the lore can be found, which would set the previous lore to a new broader picture and can bring a new story, which could allow dragons to appear in ESO too. As in my opinion lore should not be static and final. there are historians and searchers exploring it and there should be a lot of space to extend and so change it.
5. and last but not least, aerial creatures would be a nice new element to the game, of course it would require some new mechanics to the code, but why not? the game is expanding, so why not expand it also to this area?

Volkodav · December 2015

Perhaps a quest line that has a portal to take you to the plane in which those Daedric Dragons live.An entire full blooded line,with towns,and NPCs.Not just a couple of quests to kill someone's rage. And after the quests were done,the portal would stay open to return to.

altemriel · December 2015

maybe this thread could be an inspiration for ZOS about how to add dragons to the game:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149340/hopefully-someday-we-will-travel-all-of-nirn/p1

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober

MrDerrikk · December 2015

Volkodav wrote: »

Perhaps a quest line that has a portal to take you to the plane in which those Daedric Dragons like.An entire full blooded line,with towns,and NPCs.Not just a couple of quests to kill someone's rage. And after the quests were done,the portal would stay open to return to.

This made me think; what if there was a mini plane of Coldharbour in which it was just like a piece of Skyrim, except everything was daedra-ified? That would be something to appease the Skyrimmers, would not break Lore at all of done correctly, and would need slightly less design from ZOS?

Volkodav · December 2015

MrDerrikk wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Perhaps a quest line that has a portal to take you to the plane in which those Daedric Dragons like.An entire full blooded line,with towns,and NPCs.Not just a couple of quests to kill someone's rage. And after the quests were done,the portal would stay open to return to.

This made me think; what if there was a mini plane of Coldharbour in which it was just like a piece of Skyrim, except everything was daedra-ified? That would be something to appease the Skyrimmers, would not break Lore at all of done correctly, and would need slightly less design from ZOS?

VERY nice! It might just work,if ZOS would allow it. :}

TheShadowScout · December 2015

MrDerrikk wrote: »

Why Dragons should not be in ESO, and if added, how?

Well...

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

No no no and again no. Dragons are dead and or hiding. They died and or went in hiding in the 1st era and will not under any reason be seen again for over a 1000 years till 200 years into the 4th era.

That's why.
And the very fact that there are "supposedly" no dragons anymore until Skyrim is a very big point in the whole Skyrim plot! Would make it a bit lore-dissonant if we had some a thousand years earlier in TES time, huh?
So, those who are dead, are dead for now, and those who are in hiding, are hiding so well noone in this age will ever see them (except those sworn to keep them hidden, and no, that's not you! Noone trusts a player character to keep any secret woth keeping, look at all the spoilers they post on the internet!

)

As for the how... the only way to add some without major lore boo-boo is one of those nifty "time-travel/flashback" quests, like we had to see the chimer fight the nedes, or the direnni fight the alessians, or to yokudans conquer hammerfell, etc.

We got daedric titans instead, which are kinda a cheap MolagBal-made knockoff copy of TES dragons.
Good enoughfor me.

catalyst10e · December 2015

altemriel wrote: »

I am not a lore expert at all, but I have a question to people who are more into the lore:

Is the lore complete, or are that just fragments? Because if fragments only, I would not see any point in like this saying it is lore breaking to add dragons to ESO.

I personelly loved the dragons in Skyrim. And yes, I know that there was the whole dragonborn story in Skyrim and that we do not have here now in ESO, few eras back, but:
1. there can be daedric dragons
2. dragons comming from another time together with some questline, DLC possibly
3. we as players can time travel to the era where they were alive
4. a completely new part of the lore can be found, which would set the previous lore to a new broader picture and can bring a new story, which could allow dragons to appear in ESO too. As in my opinion lore should not be static and final. there are historians and searchers exploring it and there should be a lot of space to extend and so change it.
5. and last but not least, aerial creatures would be a nice new element to the game, of course it would require some new mechanics to the code, but why not? the game is expanding, so why not expand it also to this area?

Is the lore complete?: Yes and No, we have complete definitive lore, and some lore that is fragmented. The dragons lore however, is pretty definitive. They ruled in the late Merethic Era till the dragon wars, which as we saw in Skyrim, ended with Alduin being banished through time. The very few dragons left have their own stories within the lore, so they couldnt be killed in say, a raid.

1. Yes, we could use the Titans, but there is no "daedric dragon" the Dragons are a product of Akatosh, an Aedra. (they are not born and do not age, which is why you dont see Dragon eggs)
2. Such DLC could still be lore breaking, and I had mentioned it in the other forum, Magic is only just now within the 2nd era of ESO being made available to the general public via the mages guild. To have a memory of people using Magic in a time where they wouldn't have had it raises a lot of problems.
3. This runs the same issue as number 2, and on top of that, going back too far means you'd be fighting them in a time when they were worshiped as gods. If you go back to just the Dragon War, it took place in just Skyrim, with a bunch of Nords, and was only ever ended because the humans learned Dragon Rend. The DLC in question would literally be just a playable scene that was already depicted in Skyrim, complete with allowing you to Shout. How boring would a DLC be to just BE Skyrim?
4. Altho ESO is taking place during a time where a lot of history is lost, there are established events that took place. That's the problem with being in the past. B.) Some lore should be static tho, especially when there's 948 years worth of established lore that takes place after the events of this game. If this were taking place after Skyrim, during say... the Second great war, we would have more wiggle room.
5. Ariel enemies completely isolates melee only players. MMOs need to be all inclusive. Even if it has a "landing" phase, anytime it's in the air means melee users are completely out of the fight, while ranged attackers get to play the entire fight. It would just be easier to avoid Dragons altogether.

The real options come down to, "Should we force dragons to be in the game by jumping through a series of lore-based hoops just to appease the fanbase who wants to fight a dragon despite there being an elderscrolls game out currently that has dragon fighting, and potentially *** off all the hardcore lore fans? OR should we just work on some other content that is already lore-friendly, and somewhat original to the universe?" I dunno about you, but I'd rather have "new" content.

Holycannoli · December 2015

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

They're near extinction right now, and the Dragonguard is actively hunting them down as they have for hundreds of years, and will continue to do so up until they become the Blades, so they would have to be suicidal to do what you say, and they're intelligent enough to know hiding is their best bet right now. That doesn't mean we couldn't find one though.

Still, it's a better question if Dragons should be portrayed in ESO at all, what would it offer that wasn't already shown in Skyrim, and that can't be better achieved by something that has yet to be utilized to that extent?

Shouldn't be difficult to say they hunted down a particularly badass one that escaped and is pissed.

I'm thinking an epic event along the lines of Rift's Volan:

https://youtu.be/o1brgy5UXoQ?t=270

And you know it doesn't just have to be a dragon epic event, I just think it would be awesome to have an enormous dragon come swooping down with epic music playing, lore-friendly or no.

I may be biased in that dragons have always been my favorite fantasy creature.

Shunravi · December 2015

Titans are already a blatantly obvious attempt to pander to the Dragon crowd without breaching lore. Heck, they are actually more along the lines of the classical Dragon with 6 limbs instead of 4 (which I theorize is a reaction to the criticism against skyrims dragons being wyverns.)

Lenikus · December 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

Titans are already a blatantly obvious attempt to pander to the Dragon crowd without breaching lore. Heck, they are actually more along the lines of the classical Dragon with 6 limbs instead of 4 (which I theorize is a reaction to the criticism against skyrims dragons being wyverns.)

... I like you.
What he said ↑

Dragons are not needed. Heck, even in other ES games they were not there, or barely mentioned. They are just asking because Skyrim fanboys who think ES V is the first / only game of the series before ESo.

IF Zeni, in spite of all that, still decide to bring dragons (wyverns) in, it will be a DLC with a dragonbreak / time travel excuse that will not break Lore, only shatter the bit of respect Lore peepz still have on this MMO.

(Also, i kept the feeling some people are confused, so here I say, Lore itself is not about teh games, it's about the world the games take place. It's the time line. As if you were actually studying History, that's why people are so passionate about it, because it MUST be like this, otherwise that, or that, can't/will not happen.
For example, the players on this game can't actually finish or end the 3 banner wars, because it has been already said how it ended (with Tiber Septin goin' full conquer mode and ***) , and to give the players the ability to change that, breaks the time line wich means no empire, no 3rd Era, no Morrowind game (or different version of), etc.

catalyst10e · December 2015

I'm not sure if people fully understand how a Dragonbreak works. It breaks time itself (which can only be done sooo many times before it causes problems) but more than that it makes everything that happened canon, along with everything that didn't happen canon. Every possibility becomes apart of the timeline. Meaning there would still need to be lore supporting the idea of a dragon living through the 2nd Era, which there isn't. A Dragonbreak still doesn't fix that... but even moreso then that, a dragonbreak only occurs after something really powerful warps time, such as the Numidium. Dragonbreaks are more powerful than even the Elder scrolls, so they shouldn't just be used as a deus ex machina to fix all lore related issues.

Holycannoli · December 2015

My first Elder Scrolls game was Daggerfall and I was pretty diappointed that the city of Daggerfall in ESO was nothing like the city of Daggerfall in Daggerfall. I mean not even close. I didn't expect it to look like a 1996 sprite-based game but I was hoping someone would at least take the old city layout into consideration. For an RPG the city of Daggerfall in Daggerfall was pretty huge - compare it to the "city" sizes in Morrowind for instance.

So I guess in Elder Scrolls lore either the city of Daggerfall underwent an enormous transformation to a point it no longer even resembled it's former self, or one of the games isn't fully canon.

The same could be said for the surrounding countryside and regions. They're a lot smaller in ESO (and have much more content).

What's the point? Well at a certain point we should all just relax a bit on the lore.