Lets talk about Vigor.

Ezareth · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Vigor is the one ability a viable stamina build requires to succeed in PvP while solo. Without it, you need another player to heal you or you're never going to stand a chance against a good player. Rally spam just doesn't cut it.

I do feel Stamina right now is a bit overtuned, but the only thing I feel needed to address this is a Physical damage champion passive.

Ezareth,

I've read many of your post and I find them to be pretty fair and insightful. I'm not completely sure what the answer is but when a single Stam player can take on 3-4 players and avoid 80% of the damage and then when we finally damage that player they are able to heal up to full very quickly there is a balance problem, Physical damage champion passive aside. Maybe make Magic damage less avoidable? The passive dodge ability maybe needs to be toned down? Or maybe make the HOT of vigor longer?

I know what you're saying man, I've run into some very effective stamina players who are damn near impossible to kill it seems. The trick really is using the right abilities that can't be dodged, and applying pressure to them to keep them rolling and not attacking. Keep in mind that an equally skilled magicka player can survive as long using the same strategy of using LoS to split up your attacks.

bardx86 · December 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Doge role\CC break needs a Magicka morph to balance.

well i thought somthing same, im not a good a math and dont know how mutch sens this even make

block and doge cost should be lowered the more magicka you have, 15k could be the 100% like it is now (or 10k dont know the magicka pool for staminas)
with a pool from 30k magicka it could lower the cost for 50% or somthing like this.

I had a different Idea. What if the cost of the block or CC break was based on what tree the skill used was from. So a C-frags would take Magicka to CC and block and Wreaking Blow would take Stam to CC and block. Could balance things a bit.

So a magicka vs stamina fight has about 4 break free's before there out?

Thats all I have currently. Why shouldn't a Stam class have the same the same issue, especially if they have a great heal and damage mitigation and avoidance is less important? They would still have the upper hand in dodge role.

leepalmer95 · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Vigor is the one ability a viable stamina build requires to succeed in PvP while solo. Without it, you need another player to heal you or you're never going to stand a chance against a good player. Rally spam just doesn't cut it.

I do feel Stamina right now is a bit overtuned, but the only thing I feel needed to address this is a Physical damage champion passive.

Ezareth,

I've read many of your post and I find them to be pretty fair and insightful. I'm not completely sure what the answer is but when a single Stam player can take on 3-4 players and avoid 80% of the damage and then when we finally damage that player they are able to heal up to full very quickly there is a balance problem, Physical damage champion passive aside. Maybe make Magic damage less avoidable? The passive dodge ability maybe needs to be toned down? Or maybe make the HOT of vigor longer?

You know dodge roll quickly adds up... if your that bothered about healing, heal reduce them.

bardx86 · December 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Vigor is the one ability a viable stamina build requires to succeed in PvP while solo. Without it, you need another player to heal you or you're never going to stand a chance against a good player. Rally spam just doesn't cut it.

I do feel Stamina right now is a bit overtuned, but the only thing I feel needed to address this is a Physical damage champion passive.

Ezareth,

I've read many of your post and I find them to be pretty fair and insightful. I'm not completely sure what the answer is but when a single Stam player can take on 3-4 players and avoid 80% of the damage and then when we finally damage that player they are able to heal up to full very quickly there is a balance problem, Physical damage champion passive aside. Maybe make Magic damage less avoidable? The passive dodge ability maybe needs to be toned down? Or maybe make the HOT of vigor longer?

I know what you're saying man, I've run into some very effective stamina players who are damn near impossible to kill it seems. The trick really is using the right abilities that can't be dodged, and applying pressure to them to keep them rolling and not attacking. Keep in mind that an equally skilled magicka player can survive as long using the same strategy of using LoS to split up your attacks.

Agreed, but steps have been taken to discourage that on the magicak side, maybe not killed it off but it a lot harder than it was. I think you know what the synergy of mobility, gap closing, WB and vigor is now. It's not even a matter of being nearly un-killable but there is very little defensive moves to counter that type of play style especially one on one. Then adding the survivability of vigor plus stam in XV1 it just over the top.

BuggeX · December 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Vigor is the one ability a viable stamina build requires to succeed in PvP while solo. Without it, you need another player to heal you or you're never going to stand a chance against a good player. Rally spam just doesn't cut it.

I do feel Stamina right now is a bit overtuned, but the only thing I feel needed to address this is a Physical damage champion passive.

Ezareth,

I've read many of your post and I find them to be pretty fair and insightful. I'm not completely sure what the answer is but when a single Stam player can take on 3-4 players and avoid 80% of the damage and then when we finally damage that player they are able to heal up to full very quickly there is a balance problem, Physical damage champion passive aside. Maybe make Magic damage less avoidable? The passive dodge ability maybe needs to be toned down? Or maybe make the HOT of vigor longer?

I know what you're saying man, I've run into some very effective stamina players who are damn near impossible to kill it seems. The trick really is using the right abilities that can't be dodged, and applying pressure to them to keep them rolling and not attacking. Keep in mind that an equally skilled magicka player can survive as long using the same strategy of using LoS to split up your attacks.

so and how many skills are undogeable? most of them are "fixed"

bardx86 · December 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Vigor is the one ability a viable stamina build requires to succeed in PvP while solo. Without it, you need another player to heal you or you're never going to stand a chance against a good player. Rally spam just doesn't cut it.

I do feel Stamina right now is a bit overtuned, but the only thing I feel needed to address this is a Physical damage champion passive.

Ezareth,

I've read many of your post and I find them to be pretty fair and insightful. I'm not completely sure what the answer is but when a single Stam player can take on 3-4 players and avoid 80% of the damage and then when we finally damage that player they are able to heal up to full very quickly there is a balance problem, Physical damage champion passive aside. Maybe make Magic damage less avoidable? The passive dodge ability maybe needs to be toned down? Or maybe make the HOT of vigor longer?

I know what you're saying man, I've run into some very effective stamina players who are damn near impossible to kill it seems. The trick really is using the right abilities that can't be dodged, and applying pressure to them to keep them rolling and not attacking. Keep in mind that an equally skilled magicka player can survive as long using the same strategy of using LoS to split up your attacks.

so and how many skills are undogeable? most of them are "fixed"

From my point of view, its curse, but its blockable. Vigor is more than enough to out heal that.

CyrusArya · December 2015

Fun for who OP? I find it immensely fun to kite around the environment for survival. That's why I'm saying you have no perspective, you're commenting only from the view of a magicka user with no stamina experience. If you have 4 people on one guy and they are able to mitigate 4 sources of damage by kiting boulders, how is that anything short of a l2p issue? The fact that you think a Stam sorc is more OP and survivable than a magicka sorc really makes your opinion invalid in my eyes. Like I said, if you think it's so powerful make a stamina build and get some experience to see if your views are sound.

And to all the people complaining magicka doesn't have a vigor morph, do you people seriously not see the advantage that being able to spam class skills gives you? You want a magicka morph? Fine. Then give every class viable stamina morphs for every relevant Stam skill. Then we can talk. But at that point, why even have different stamina or magicka categories?

Seriously tho, a magicka sorc commenting on how another build is too survive able . Lol these forums never stop amusing me.

Ezareth · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Vigor is the one ability a viable stamina build requires to succeed in PvP while solo. Without it, you need another player to heal you or you're never going to stand a chance against a good player. Rally spam just doesn't cut it.

I do feel Stamina right now is a bit overtuned, but the only thing I feel needed to address this is a Physical damage champion passive.

Ezareth,

I've read many of your post and I find them to be pretty fair and insightful. I'm not completely sure what the answer is but when a single Stam player can take on 3-4 players and avoid 80% of the damage and then when we finally damage that player they are able to heal up to full very quickly there is a balance problem, Physical damage champion passive aside. Maybe make Magic damage less avoidable? The passive dodge ability maybe needs to be toned down? Or maybe make the HOT of vigor longer?

I know what you're saying man, I've run into some very effective stamina players who are damn near impossible to kill it seems. The trick really is using the right abilities that can't be dodged, and applying pressure to them to keep them rolling and not attacking. Keep in mind that an equally skilled magicka player can survive as long using the same strategy of using LoS to split up your attacks.

so and how many skills are undogeable? most of them are "fixed"

From my point of view, its curse, but its blockable. Vigor is more than enough to out heal that.

For me it is Degeneration, Curse, and Power Overload Heavy attack. Additional you have Liquid lightning, Streak and Magicka Detonation which I don't move as well as things like mines (Can't exactly use on someone running from you), encase, Wall of Elements or any AoE or ground effect. I'm definitely not suggesting killing dodge rollers with AoE (except maybe power overload which I use a lot).

Curse is blockable but if someone is spamming dodge rolls they can't really afford to block it.

bardx86 · December 2015

CyrusArya wrote: »

Fun for who OP? I find it immensely fun to kite around the environment for survival. That's why I'm saying you have no perspective, you're commenting only from the view of a magicka user with no stamina experience. If you have 4 people on one guy and they are able to mitigate 4 sources of damage by kiting boulders, how is that anything short of a l2p issue? The fact that you think a Stam sorc is more OP and survivable than a magicka sorc really makes your opinion invalid in my eyes. Like I said, if you think it's so powerful make a stamina build and get some experience to see if your views are sound.

And to all the people complaining magicka doesn't have a vigor morph, do you people seriously not see the advantage that being able to spam class skills gives you? You want a magicka morph? Fine. Then give every class viable stamina morphs for every relevant Stam skill. Then we can talk. But at that point, why even have different stamina or magicka categories?

Seriously tho, a magicka sorc commenting on how another build is too survive able . Lol these forums never stop amusing me.

Glad I could amuse you, at least you are getting something constructive out of this. Guess we will just have to disagree on the running around boulders game play, not my cup of tea. The L2P is don't follow, think I've "L"ed that of the 2P. I'd rather fight in an open space and let the cards fall.

GreenSoup2HoT · December 2015

If you wanna nerf vigor or rally. Revert dodge roll back to its glory. Now a stamina user can dodge attack's like they are suppose to instead of face tank healing like we have now.

bardx86 · December 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Vigor is the one ability a viable stamina build requires to succeed in PvP while solo. Without it, you need another player to heal you or you're never going to stand a chance against a good player. Rally spam just doesn't cut it.

I do feel Stamina right now is a bit overtuned, but the only thing I feel needed to address this is a Physical damage champion passive.

Ezareth,

I've read many of your post and I find them to be pretty fair and insightful. I'm not completely sure what the answer is but when a single Stam player can take on 3-4 players and avoid 80% of the damage and then when we finally damage that player they are able to heal up to full very quickly there is a balance problem, Physical damage champion passive aside. Maybe make Magic damage less avoidable? The passive dodge ability maybe needs to be toned down? Or maybe make the HOT of vigor longer?

I know what you're saying man, I've run into some very effective stamina players who are damn near impossible to kill it seems. The trick really is using the right abilities that can't be dodged, and applying pressure to them to keep them rolling and not attacking. Keep in mind that an equally skilled magicka player can survive as long using the same strategy of using LoS to split up your attacks.

so and how many skills are undogeable? most of them are "fixed"

From my point of view, its curse, but its blockable. Vigor is more than enough to out heal that.

For me it is Degeneration, Curse, and Power Overload Heavy attack. Additional you have Liquid lightning, Streak and Magicka Detonation which I don't move as well as things like mines (Can't exactly use on someone running from you), encase, Wall of Elements or any AoE or ground effect. I'm definitely not suggesting killing dodge rollers with AoE (except maybe power overload which I use a lot).

Curse is blockable but if someone is spamming dodge rolls they can't really afford to block it.

Wish I was better with overload. I normally get killed once I switch to that bar not having the utility of the other bars. The lag doesn't help either. Plus my overload hit like a wet noodle. My frags are pretty solid in the 12k-14k but overload is like 6kish. If I might ask, what do you run on your overload bar?

Sheezabeast · December 2015

How about you cluckin chickens discuss this after the siege patch and everyone is getting hit harder and some siege will reduce stam

MidnightBlue · December 2015

.

MidnightBlue · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I'm not convinced you have the authority to speak for what anyone 'needs'. Want my thoughts OP? I dont care much for what you have to say on the matter. We don't need people who clearly have no perspective dictating balance. Vigor makes stamina builds viable in PvP against the otherwise infinitely more survivable magicka builds. End of story. Those strong defensive class skills you refer to are virtually all magicka based. Just as always has been the case, Magicka builds get the full power and utility of their class skills while Stamina largely gets it power from sources beyond just the class. FFS only 1 Stam class has any good Stam skills to begin with in class. As of right now, outside the CP system, magicka and stamina are balanced. And even then I argue that the CP imbalance is justified.

You don't want balance. You want easier kills on Stam players. And to that my friend all I can say is, L2P. I play magicka and stamina, and I can tell you, objectively a skilled player of any class with a proper build is hard as hell to kill, as it should be. If you think stamina is so OP and Vigor is broken, by all means make a Stam toon then duel a good magicka build w/o vigor. Then report back on how it went.

I hope this isn't referring to me. I don't think I've called for a "need" for anything. If anything you are now dictating to me what I say i'm wanting, which is far from the truth. What i am saying is i can see what the meta is heading towards and it not that fun of a game if we are running around rocks spamming vigor. Stam classes should not have to rely on Vigor to be competative but use class abilities to defend themselves. And yes I will most likely be switching to a wreaking blow, lighting form, crit rush, vigor spamming medium armor, stam sorc as its OP as hell, if this is the meta the game is heading towards. You tell me what the weakness in that build is? Teach me how to L2P?

Why not? If sorcs and magicka users can rely on shields and resto abilities for defense why can't stamina users rely on Vigor? No arguing I just want to know why you think stam users shouldn't rely on Vigor... Shuffle/Double Take aren't shields and you can still get hit, it's only a 20% dodge chance. I'm speaking from a Stamblade point of view and the only abilities I use from 2h are Rally so I don't use the WB spamming.

I agree with the guy that says that you need Vigor to stand a chance against a good player.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

Well I'm not sure Stams classes should have that good a heal. they rely more on damage avoidance but i get your point. Also I didn't call for a nerf, I just wanted other opinions.

Damage Avoidance? You mean blocking the thing that stops your Stamina Regeneration preventing you from healing, attacking or rolling?

Maybe you mean Damage Avoidance like rolling which cost 33% more when did within 5 seconds of the last one.

Their are no penalties for using Shields. So whereas you NEED Champion Points to make stamina defense useable because of the penalties you only buff shields with the Champion Syatem with no need to counter anything.

Both Shield Strength and Damage were reduced to 50% so the nerf evens out

SoulAffliction · December 2015

Having been magicka based; just created a new (main) Stam alt....having done some research; isn't Rally better than Vigor for NB's?
Kinda a Stam noob, so any advice would be appreciated.

leepalmer95 · December 2015

SoulAffliction wrote: »

Having been magicka based; just created a new (main) Stam alt....having done some research; isn't Rally better than Vigor for NB's?
Kinda a Stam noob, so any advice would be appreciated.

Why not use both ^^

MidnightBlue · December 2015

I use both Rally and Vigor because Rally isn't just a heal, it's also a Major Brutality buff and it gives you a 20% weapon damage increase whereas Vigor does not. It saves your weapon power pots usage. Vigor is just a good healing skill to use on top of it.

Forestd16b14_ESO · December 2015

Let's just see how far this thread can go before ZOS shuts it down cause it's clearly passed the down right ridiculous point.

*munches on popcorn*

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

david31741 wrote: »

Of course this cant be discussed objectively - everyone is passionate about their playstyle.

Vigor is allowing max DPS builds to be unkillable. The issue for me inst vigor itself- it is unlimited stamina regen + Roll Dodge + Vigor + Charge + Wrecking blow is invincible mode.

There is no weakness in this build/play style - that is the problem.

Vigor eliminates the weakness that a stamina DPS builds previously had - healing. There is no question - if you are even paying attention a little bit - or honest with yourself - the best duo/trio/whatever is dodge rolling wrecking blow spammers who can heal themselves.

This is not a real build though it's all the Stamina builds max DPS and Max regeneration is not possible max DPS Build have little staying power they die pretty fast three rolls and a stamina pot then they burst you down.

Don't waste resources when they roll. Go defensive when they attack cause they hit a pot and can't keep the DPS going for to long and pop your pot and melt their face off.

Makkir · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

Wish I was better with overload. I normally get killed once I switch to that bar not having the utility of the other bars. The lag doesn't help either. Plus my overload hit like a wet noodle. My frags are pretty solid in the 12k-14k but overload is like 6kish. If I might ask, what do you run on your overload bar?

You'll need to run your ward on your Overload bar as well.

if I had to take a wild guess at what @Ezareth runs on his overload bar...I would say Degen or Surge, BoL, Hard Ward, Frags, and probably storm. He runs a S&B defensive bar so I would imagine his Defensive Posture and Rune is on that bar with Ward, Degeneration, and BoL.

MrGrimey · December 2015

How does having it at a higher rank make it more balanced? Stamina classes also typically don't have shields like healing ward and harness magicka.

With BoL healing players from 20% to 100% from one heal, Vigor is not a problem. I do feel that all healing should get a slight reduction of 5-10%

cazlonb16_ESO · December 2015

Not every stam based player is a Wood Elf NB. Just saying.

Ezareth · December 2015

Makkir wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Wish I was better with overload. I normally get killed once I switch to that bar not having the utility of the other bars. The lag doesn't help either. Plus my overload hit like a wet noodle. My frags are pretty solid in the 12k-14k but overload is like 6kish. If I might ask, what do you run on your overload bar?

You'll need to run your ward on your Overload bar as well.

if I had to take a wild guess at what @Ezareth runs on his overload bar...I would say Degen or Surge, BoL, Hard Ward, Frags, and probably storm. He runs a S&B defensive bar so I would imagine his Defensive Posture and Rune is on that bar with Ward, Degeneration, and BoL.

@Makkir @bardx86

Degeneration(Surge is on my S&B bar), Mines, BoL, Magelight and Hardened Ward. If I were using Streak instead of BoL I would be running Harness Magicka instead of Magelight but BoL protects me enough from magick damage that I don't need to shield stack. With Surge up and Degeneration I'm basically healed to full every time I crit or on 15% of my overloads. I do the worst against pure stam builds that utilize cloak and dodge rolling effectively as my heals require me to hit them with projectiles.

Makkir · December 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

I do the worst against pure stam builds that utilize cloak and dodge rolling effectively as my heals require me to hit them with projectiles.

@Ezareth I ran this build when IC was on PTS but dumped it when it went live. I also had problems when I was being focused hard and was forced on my defensive (Again, because I can only be healed if I was hitting my opponent). Props to you if you can get that build to work for you, but it was a complete PITA for me. Was great in PvE content though.

KenaPKK · December 2015

Would love a magicka morph pleez

Cathexis · December 2015

KenaPKK wrote: »

Would love a magicka morph pleez

You have an entire resto tree, get out of here.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

KenaPKK wrote: »

Would love a magicka morph pleez

You don't need a magicka morhp all class heal are magic based with magic with maybe a stamina morph. Not to mention Restoration Staff. Stamina Weapon heals go as followed.

Two Handed: Momentum - nice HoT and 20% damage buff.

One Hand and Shield: Absorb Magic - Absorbs 6k damage from magic projectile and heals for 15% max health 7.5% in PvP with 22k that's 1.6k healing plus you take all the left over damage. Or you can send the whole thing back with a stun from the other morph.

Dual Wield: Blood Craze - Heals for 600 per second while target has the block able DoT on them in PvP that heap is 300 so basically health regeneration.

Bow: No heals

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2015

Magicka already offers far more survivability. I've tried both and you're crazy if you think Vigor is overpowered. Its nice but it is no where near the healing, shielding, and armoring you can get from magic. The only reason you are complaining is that it is more common now that it doesn't require you to have played 1000's of hours in Cyrodiil to acquire. It still does require a good bit of investment in time though. If anything you should be writing about how terrible the Guard skill is and how they need to fix it, or the fact that blocking and rolling has been ruined. I might be able to get behind the notion of nerfing Vigor (but it would take convincing) if they hadn't utterly destroyed tanking options for the more stamina leaning characters out there.

bardx86 · December 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Would love a magicka morph pleez

You have an entire resto tree, get out of here.

as do you