Lets talk about Vigor.

Knootewoot · December 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Vigor should only be available at alliance rank 30 and in cyrodill

Just making Vigor hard to get doesn't change the imbalance it creates. Everyone will hit 30 at some point.

Stamina NB have no other heal. Vigor should maybe heal less or cost more stamina upon spamming (something costing more resources like streak is just a cooldown in disguise) and take any class out of stealth just like any other heal. Or nightblades should have a stamina morph of a heal ability.

If so they should make all heals/shields cost more when being spammed. You cannot do that to one skill and leave the rest. These nerf threads gets more sad, day after day.

I don't want it nerfed either. It's my only heal since they introduced it (when it was still rank 10)

OdinForge · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

Its a very powerful skill for the Stam users and Its becoming the a prevalent meta. I mean every Stam class is using. I'm not convinced that high damage/mobility classes with pretty good defensive stills really needed this skill. Stam classes can now pretty much stand toe to toe with DPS magicka classes and pretty much ignore there class defensive skill. The game is turning into run around a rock spamming vigor, some kind of mobility buff and wreaking blow. It's making for some pretty boring combat. Just wanted to get others opinions on this subject as well, thoughts?

It's the only other heal in the game for stamina users?

Hit them with a defile and move on.

MidnightBlue · December 2015

Are people really complaining about the only stam heal (besides Rally) in the game now? Give me a break, there's barely any stam heals and the only ones that are there someone has to complain about that. Magic users have way more healing abilities and options, let us stam users have some healing abilities too. This is not necessarily directed at you OP, but to anyone really.

Tired of people wanting to nerf stamina classes and abilities. I don't get why people want to nerf stam builds at all. They aren't all that OP like people make it out to be. Yeah they do have a lot of strengths, but so do magic builds but yet I never hear people complain about magic characters being OP. These nerf topics ARE getting sad and I don't just mean this one, but all the ones I've been seeing. I don't main a magic character, but I definitely don't complain about nerfing them.

Forestd16b14_ESO · December 2015

Oh a magicka user is upset that stamina users have some power? ZOS already gave what you magicka user QQ about and nerfed stamina users immediately after 1.5 when stamina user finally were good. Maybe so many use vigor is because most of the other healing skills are totally useless like DKs dragons blood. Heals 33% missing heal. and increases health recovery by 20%. No hard number no set HOT just 33% of missing health and half the time it didn't even scale properly. It is a heal that only works when you're at the middle of your health no at the beginning or the end but only in the middle.

I'll admit rally+vigor combo is little powerful but best heals in the game for stamina users and tanks. Why you want tanks nerf were already suffering don't nerf tanks even more. Do you hate tanks or something?

Cathexis · December 2015

Thread is a nerf stamina classes disguised as a nerf vigor thread.

Toast_STS · December 2015

Its a very powerful skill for the Stam users and Its becoming the a prevalent meta. I mean every Stam class is using. I'm not convinced that high damage/mobility classes with pretty good defensive stills really needed this skill. Stam classes can now pretty much stand toe to toe with DPS magicka classes and pretty much ignore there class defensive skill. The game is turning into run around a rock spamming vigor, some kind of mobility buff and wreaking blow. It's making for some pretty boring combat. Just wanted to get others opinions on this subject as well, thoughts?

Are you saying it needs a buff so they do stand toe to toe?

Forestd16b14_ESO · December 2015

tony.augeb14_ESO wrote: »

Its a very powerful skill for the Stam users and Its becoming the a prevalent meta. I mean every Stam class is using. I'm not convinced that high damage/mobility classes with pretty good defensive stills really needed this skill. Stam classes can now pretty much stand toe to toe with DPS magicka classes and pretty much ignore there class defensive skill. The game is turning into run around a rock spamming vigor, some kind of mobility buff and wreaking blow. It's making for some pretty boring combat. Just wanted to get others opinions on this subject as well, thoughts?

Are you saying it needs a buff so they do stand toe to toe?

Yea it was also right there were I just started to laugh my arse off. Oh so you want stamina users to be a worthless build in PvP cause you want easy kills.

david31741 · December 2015

Adding Vigor to the game was a mistake. It gave classes/builds with the highest DPS, who have crazy mitigation through roll dodge near non-stop while healing to full health in seconds.

It also made the traditional Templar/Healers irrelevant.

And we wonder why everyone is a Nightblade or DK?

danno8 · December 2015

david31741 wrote: »

Adding Vigor to the game was a mistake. It gave classes/builds with the highest DPS, who have crazy mitigation through roll dodge near non-stop while healing to full health in seconds.

It also made the traditional Templar/Healers irrelevant.

And we wonder why everyone is a Nightblade or DK?

Funny enough, the introduction of Vigor added the extra survivability that helped lead to the nerfing of dodge roll.

I for one would like to see dodge rolling penalty removed, but that will never happen now that we have vigor.

Cathexis · December 2015

Let's just ignore the whole magicka based resto staff tree that existed well before vigor. Clearly only magicka classes deserve classless healing skills.

After all its not like the game was designed originally to function healerless. Oh wait. It was.

After all its not like the resto tree isn't way more diverse and way more powerful than stamina based healing. Oh wait. It is.

After all its not like vigor has to be stacked with other heals or complimentary abilities to be effective. Oh wait it does.

Thread is a joke, please close it ZoS.

Emma_Overload · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

I'm not convinced that high damage/mobility classes with pretty good defensive stills really needed this skill.

I have yet to see a video of a stamina build completing Veteran Maelstrom Arena without prolific use of Vigor. Even virtuoso Stam Sorcs like FENGRUSH use it.

Please post a video of your Stam build completing VMA without Vigor... then we can talk about nerfs, OK?

Dexter411 · December 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Please post a video of your Stam build completing VMA without Vigor... then we can talk about nerfs, OK?

This is what i wanted to write. Word to word. It is ridiculous just like Sorcs with more dmg shield then their Hp, spamming and over and over. Not to mention how slow it takes (for stamina and new/newbies players like me) to gather AP.
Just got almost 2k AP for spamming mutagen from one siege. On stamina there is no way i could get even close to that.

CtrlAltDlt · December 2015

LOL. Not sure if OP is trolling.

BuggeX · December 2015

why dont we add more ticks to structured entropy and Change it to a self buff only?`so we would have our Major buff with a hot

bardx86 · December 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

tony.augeb14_ESO wrote: »

Its a very powerful skill for the Stam users and Its becoming the a prevalent meta. I mean every Stam class is using. I'm not convinced that high damage/mobility classes with pretty good defensive stills really needed this skill. Stam classes can now pretty much stand toe to toe with DPS magicka classes and pretty much ignore there class defensive skill. The game is turning into run around a rock spamming vigor, some kind of mobility buff and wreaking blow. It's making for some pretty boring combat. Just wanted to get others opinions on this subject as well, thoughts?

Are you saying it needs a buff so they do stand toe to toe?

Yea it was also right there were I just started to laugh my arse off. Oh so you want stamina users to be a worthless build in PvP cause you want easy kills.

Nice way pull a sentence out of context. Stam User were more than viable prior to vigor. And no a Stam build should not be able to out heal a Magic sorc. The only class that should be able to do that is a Templar. Other Stam classes should have to rely on their defensive class skills. What I'm saying that Stam users can now ignore there class defensive skills and just rely on Vigor, that doesn't seem right to me. Furthermore combining vigor with the ability to stack everything into Stam to have the best damage, best mobility, best resources for CC break, Dodge role, block and passive dodge it a little overboard. Magic classes need healing as they can not block or dodge role to evade damage the same way a Stam class can. This is a huge defensive unbalance. Why do you think King Richard is running a Stam Sorc? Its not just NB and DK Stam Sorcs get the same advantage. So either Vigor needs a change or Doge role\CC break needs a Magicka morph to balance.

bardx86 · December 2015

david31741 wrote: »

Adding Vigor to the game was a mistake. It gave classes/builds with the highest DPS, who have crazy mitigation through roll dodge near non-stop while healing to full health in seconds.

It also made the traditional Templar/Healers irrelevant.

And we wonder why everyone is a Nightblade or DK?

So true. This is also why Rift failed. healing was out off control.

david31741 · December 2015

Of course this cant be discussed objectively - everyone is passionate about their playstyle.

Vigor is allowing max DPS builds to be unkillable. The issue for me inst vigor itself- it is unlimited stamina regen + Roll Dodge + Vigor + Charge + Wrecking blow is invincible mode.

There is no weakness in this build/play style - that is the problem.

Vigor eliminates the weakness that a stamina DPS builds previously had - healing. There is no question - if you are even paying attention a little bit - or honest with yourself - the best duo/trio/whatever is dodge rolling wrecking blow spammers who can heal themselves.

bardx86 · December 2015

david31741 wrote: »

Of course this cant be discussed objectively - everyone is passionate about their playstyle.

Vigor is allowing max DPS builds to be unkillable. The issue for me inst vigor itself- it is unlimited stamina regen + Roll Dodge + Vigor + Charge + Wrecking blow is invincible mode.

There is no weakness in this build/play style - that is the problem.

Vigor eliminates the weakness that a stamina DPS builds previously had - healing. There is no question - if you are even paying attention a little bit - or honest with yourself - the best duo/trio/whatever is dodge rolling wrecking blow spammers who can heal themselves.

Exactly! And if Vigor isn't OP then I doubt anyone would be adverse to a magic morph, would they? I would love to ditch the reso staff and spam Vigor every 5 sec.

CyrusArya · December 2015

I'm not convinced you have the authority to speak for what anyone 'needs'. Want my thoughts OP? I dont care much for what you have to say on the matter. We don't need people who clearly have no perspective dictating balance. Vigor makes stamina builds viable in PvP against the otherwise infinitely more survivable magicka builds. End of story. Those strong defensive class skills you refer to are virtually all magicka based. Just as always has been the case, Magicka builds get the full power and utility of their class skills while Stamina largely gets it power from sources beyond just the class. FFS only 1 Stam class has any good Stam skills to begin with in class. As of right now, outside the CP system, magicka and stamina are balanced. And even then I argue that the CP imbalance is justified.

You don't want balance. You want easier kills on Stam players. And to that my friend all I can say is, L2P. I play magicka and stamina, and I can tell you, objectively a skilled player of any class with a proper build is hard as hell to kill, as it should be. If you think stamina is so OP and Vigor is broken, by all means make a Stam toon then duel a good magicka build w/o vigor. Then report back on how it went.

BuggeX · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

Doge role\CC break needs a Magicka morph to balance.

well i thought somthing same, im not a good a math and dont know how mutch sens this even make

block and doge cost should be lowered the more magicka you have, 15k could be the 100% like it is now (or 10k dont know the magicka pool for staminas)
with a pool from 30k magicka it could lower the cost for 50% or somthing like this.

Ezareth · December 2015

Vigor is the one ability a viable stamina build requires to succeed in PvP while solo. Without it, you need another player to heal you or you're never going to stand a chance against a good player. Rally spam just doesn't cut it.

I do feel Stamina right now is a bit overtuned, but the only thing I feel needed to address this is a Physical damage champion passive.

bardx86 · December 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Doge role\CC break needs a Magicka morph to balance.

well i thought somthing same, im not a good a math and dont know how mutch sens this even make

block and doge cost should be lowered the more magicka you have, 15k could be the 100% like it is now (or 10k dont know the magicka pool for staminas)
with a pool from 30k magicka it could lower the cost for 50% or somthing like this.

I had a different Idea. What if the cost of the block or CC break was based on what tree the skill used was from. So a C-frags would take Magicka to CC and block and Wreaking Blow would take Stam to CC and block. Could balance things a bit.

leepalmer95 · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Doge role\CC break needs a Magicka morph to balance.

well i thought somthing same, im not a good a math and dont know how mutch sens this even make

block and doge cost should be lowered the more magicka you have, 15k could be the 100% like it is now (or 10k dont know the magicka pool for staminas)
with a pool from 30k magicka it could lower the cost for 50% or somthing like this.

I had a different Idea. What if the cost of the block or CC break was based on what tree the skill used was from. So a C-frags would take Magicka to CC and block and Wreaking Blow would take Stam to CC and block. Could balance things a bit.

So a magicka vs stamina fight has about 4 break free's before there out?

BuggeX · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Doge role\CC break needs a Magicka morph to balance.

well i thought somthing same, im not a good a math and dont know how mutch sens this even make

block and doge cost should be lowered the more magicka you have, 15k could be the 100% like it is now (or 10k dont know the magicka pool for staminas)
with a pool from 30k magicka it could lower the cost for 50% or somthing like this.

I had a different Idea. What if the cost of the block or CC break was based on what tree the skill used was from. So a C-frags would take Magicka to CC and block and Wreaking Blow would take Stam to CC and block. Could balance things a bit.

well that would brake massiv thinks for pve

bardx86 · December 2015

CyrusArya wrote: »

I'm not convinced you have the authority to speak for what anyone 'needs'. Want my thoughts OP? I dont care much for what you have to say on the matter. We don't need people who clearly have no perspective dictating balance. Vigor makes stamina builds viable in PvP against the otherwise infinitely more survivable magicka builds. End of story. Those strong defensive class skills you refer to are virtually all magicka based. Just as always has been the case, Magicka builds get the full power and utility of their class skills while Stamina largely gets it power from sources beyond just the class. FFS only 1 Stam class has any good Stam skills to begin with in class. As of right now, outside the CP system, magicka and stamina are balanced. And even then I argue that the CP imbalance is justified.

You don't want balance. You want easier kills on Stam players. And to that my friend all I can say is, L2P. I play magicka and stamina, and I can tell you, objectively a skilled player of any class with a proper build is hard as hell to kill, as it should be. If you think stamina is so OP and Vigor is broken, by all means make a Stam toon then duel a good magicka build w/o vigor. Then report back on how it went.

I hope this isn't referring to me. I don't think I've called for a "need" for anything. If anything you are now dictating to me what I say i'm wanting, which is far from the truth. What i am saying is i can see what the meta is heading towards and it not that fun of a game if we are running around rocks spamming vigor. Stam classes should not have to rely on Vigor to be competative but use class abilities to defend themselves. And yes I will most likely be switching to a wreaking blow, lighting form, crit rush, vigor spamming medium armor, stam sorc as its OP as hell, if this is the meta the game is heading towards. You tell me what the weakness in that build is? Teach me how to L2P?

bardx86 · December 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Doge role\CC break needs a Magicka morph to balance.

well i thought somthing same, im not a good a math and dont know how mutch sens this even make

block and doge cost should be lowered the more magicka you have, 15k could be the 100% like it is now (or 10k dont know the magicka pool for staminas)
with a pool from 30k magicka it could lower the cost for 50% or somthing like this.

I had a different Idea. What if the cost of the block or CC break was based on what tree the skill used was from. So a C-frags would take Magicka to CC and block and Wreaking Blow would take Stam to CC and block. Could balance things a bit.

well that would brake massiv thinks for pve

true that, i'm just thinking pvp, don't pve

Kutsuu · December 2015

I can see lots of different arguments on this one being viable.

Here are my thoughts on it:

Magicka users often have class-based options for heals, but all but the Templar heals are too weak to use alone like one can with Vigor, requiring the majority of competitive small-man/solo Magicka builds to run resto staff on one bar. Stamina users are somewhat similar being tied to Rally, but the reason isn't only healing (largely related to 20% weapon damage buff) and 2h is a very powerful offensive weapon line. Vigor gives us the choice of really any stamina weapon while maintaining strong heals.

I think there are two options: a Magicka morph of Vigor, or change Vigor all together in favor of a defensive/offensive buff, and the "big" stamina heal moved to a new defensive stamina weapon. This way you either give both magicka and stamina users the ability to have self heals when using any weapons, or you have both magicka and stamina users gravitating to a specific weapon to get good healing. If the Vigor replacement provided the major weapon buff to give a viable alternative to Rally, Stamina build would still be able to have weapon variety while slotting the stam version of resto staff on their back bars.

I must also admit that it makes Magicka builds a little bittersweet when your best recovery-healing option (healing ward) is hard countered by Shield Breaker.

Just my 2c.

bardx86 · December 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Vigor is the one ability a viable stamina build requires to succeed in PvP while solo. Without it, you need another player to heal you or you're never going to stand a chance against a good player. Rally spam just doesn't cut it.

I do feel Stamina right now is a bit overtuned, but the only thing I feel needed to address this is a Physical damage champion passive.

Ezareth,

I've read many of your post and I find them to be pretty fair and insightful. I'm not completely sure what the answer is but when a single Stam player can take on 3-4 players and avoid 80% of the damage and then when we finally damage that player they are able to heal up to full very quickly there is a balance problem, Physical damage champion passive aside. Maybe make Magic damage less avoidable? The passive dodge ability maybe needs to be toned down? Or maybe make the HOT of vigor longer?

SturgeHammer · December 2015

I hate vigor. Pretty much everything about it disgusts me from a design standpoint. This would have been an excellent place for ZOS to explore a real hybrid ability (cheap magicka cost, with some component that makes it scale off of stam). Instead we got a super strong, pbaoe that has absolutely no synergy with physical combat other than being a heal that costs stamina. This ability mitigates so much risk that it makes the decision to slot it on a stam build trivial.

There are other abilities I feel similarly about, but this one is the worst offender.

BuggeX · December 2015

bardx86 wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Doge role\CC break needs a Magicka morph to balance.

well i thought somthing same, im not a good a math and dont know how mutch sens this even make

block and doge cost should be lowered the more magicka you have, 15k could be the 100% like it is now (or 10k dont know the magicka pool for staminas)
with a pool from 30k magicka it could lower the cost for 50% or somthing like this.

I had a different Idea. What if the cost of the block or CC break was based on what tree the skill used was from. So a C-frags would take Magicka to CC and block and Wreaking Blow would take Stam to CC and block. Could balance things a bit.

well that would brake massiv thinks for pve

true that, i'm just thinking pvp, don't pve

we do speak about zos, dont forgett this