Cloak

hammayolettuce · December 2015

The fact that a Stamina sorc can only streak 2-3 times if lucky and a Stam NB can cloak 3+ times is the issue with cloak. Cloak in itself is worlds better than streak as an escape. When spammed it is a 100% dodge of an incoming dmg, you can move past any aggro while using cloak, magicka NBs can use it so much that fights can be reset where the mag blade recovers full resources.

Give cloak the streak cost treatment and the cries over NBs wont be as common.

*

Kutsuu · December 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

i have every class. if you know everything exactly how can a mag dk beat a nb? if they make the dots stick then fine. leave it as is. but mark my words. there is a cloak nerf coming. no way around it. every other OP ability has been hit. Cloak is next and rightfully so.

I've seen a couple of 1h/s+resto magicka DKs that eat up your usual ganky stam NBs. The main factors to your win are mitigating their early burst and helping them to empty their resources, since the majority of NBs stack weapon damage at the expense of regen. Fossilize and Talons put a tremendous amount of pressure on their stamina (or their health if they don't break them and let you whip their backsides), and refreshing your DoT every time they come out of cloak puts pressure on their magicka (or their health if they don't cloak to remove them). You have the option of an armor morph, detect pots, and other assorted AOE attacks to counter cloak. A good magicka NB will be the more difficult opponent, but they're not as common.

Also I just want to note... that "I have every class" thing is used way too often around here as an excuse for saying something that shows bias towards one class. It's similar to the "With all due respect, <insert disrespectful statement>" oxymoron.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

Kutsuu wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

i have every class. if you know everything exactly how can a mag dk beat a nb? if they make the dots stick then fine. leave it as is. but mark my words. there is a cloak nerf coming. no way around it. every other OP ability has been hit. Cloak is next and rightfully so.

Fossilize and Talons put a tremendous amount of pressure on their stamina (or their health if they don't break them and let you whip their backsides), and refreshing your DoT every time they come out of cloak puts pressure on their magicka (or their health if they don't cloak to remove them). The main factors to your win are mitigating their early burst and helping them to empty their resources, since the majority of NBs stack weapon damage at the expense of regen. I've seen a couple of 1h/s+resto magicka DKs that eat up your usual ganky stam NBs. A good magicka NB will be the more difficult opponent, but they're not as common.

Also I just want to note... that "I have every class" thing is used way too often around here as an excuse for saying something that shows bias towards one class. It's similar to the "With all due respect, <insert disrespectful statement>" oxymoron.

The cost of cloak is far less than spamming talons. Magicka NBs in most instances can use cloak at an almost free cost because of how it works and unfortunately stamina NBs can use cloak far more than they should be able to as well because of this.

*

Kutsuu · December 2015

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

i have every class. if you know everything exactly how can a mag dk beat a nb? if they make the dots stick then fine. leave it as is. but mark my words. there is a cloak nerf coming. no way around it. every other OP ability has been hit. Cloak is next and rightfully so.

Fossilize and Talons put a tremendous amount of pressure on their stamina (or their health if they don't break them and let you whip their backsides), and refreshing your DoT every time they come out of cloak puts pressure on their magicka (or their health if they don't cloak to remove them). The main factors to your win are mitigating their early burst and helping them to empty their resources, since the majority of NBs stack weapon damage at the expense of regen. I've seen a couple of 1h/s+resto magicka DKs that eat up your usual ganky stam NBs. A good magicka NB will be the more difficult opponent, but they're not as common.

Also I just want to note... that "I have every class" thing is used way too often around here as an excuse for saying something that shows bias towards one class. It's similar to the "With all due respect, <insert disrespectful statement>" oxymoron.

The cost of cloak is far less than spamming talons. Magicka NBs in most instances can use cloak at an almost free cost because of how it works and unfortunately stamina NBs can use cloak far more than they should be able to as well because of this.

Cloak is one of the most expensive magicka abilities available to NB. There is no case that it's free or almost free of magicka cost unless you're using Magus set and get your proc. It's around 3600 magicka without light armor passives, which I believe is comparable to talons in the same scenario. Don't pretend that only the NB can regenerate during the 2.9s duration. Both parties involved in a fight continue to regenerate, even while one is in cloak.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

Kutsuu wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

i have every class. if you know everything exactly how can a mag dk beat a nb? if they make the dots stick then fine. leave it as is. but mark my words. there is a cloak nerf coming. no way around it. every other OP ability has been hit. Cloak is next and rightfully so.

Fossilize and Talons put a tremendous amount of pressure on their stamina (or their health if they don't break them and let you whip their backsides), and refreshing your DoT every time they come out of cloak puts pressure on their magicka (or their health if they don't cloak to remove them). The main factors to your win are mitigating their early burst and helping them to empty their resources, since the majority of NBs stack weapon damage at the expense of regen. I've seen a couple of 1h/s+resto magicka DKs that eat up your usual ganky stam NBs. A good magicka NB will be the more difficult opponent, but they're not as common.

Also I just want to note... that "I have every class" thing is used way too often around here as an excuse for saying something that shows bias towards one class. It's similar to the "With all due respect, <insert disrespectful statement>" oxymoron.

The cost of cloak is far less than spamming talons. Magicka NBs in most instances can use cloak at an almost free cost because of how it works and unfortunately stamina NBs can use cloak far more than they should be able to as well because of this.

Cloak is one of the most expensive magicka abilities available to NB. There is no case that it's free or almost free of magicka cost unless you're using Magus set and get your proc. It's around 3600 magicka without light armor passives, which I believe is comparable to talons in the same scenario. Don't pretend that only the NB can regenerate during the 2.9s duration. Both parties involved in a fight continue to regenerate, even while one is in cloak.

Sure if your stamina and stack food with full wep dmg enchants, like only a small percent of stam builds do. However, 9/10 stamblades in pvp are vamps, using drink and have very high magicka regen with sacrificing very little in dmg.

*

Moglijuana · December 2015

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

For all the people saying go and nerf cloak. Well here is my 2 cents. Go and play a nb, use cloak to get out of a sticky situation, and see if it works 75% it doesnt, and while your pvping and using cloak do tell us how it needs to be nerfed cuz a lot of things will bring u out of cloak. So unless you play a nightblade stop your bit**ing about nerfing cloak. Otherwise nerfing sorcs, nerfing dk's, nerf, templars. For the love of god. Just pvp and play your class and learn to counter that other class!

I have v16 NB...I still think Cloak is OP. I think AoE's should be able to pull you out, but DoTs shouldn't that way you can get rid of that free purge. The invisibility (and resistance with it) is enough of a defense. That would help DoT classes tremendously. I stopped playing my NB because of how easy it is. I now religiously play my Mag DK because it's fun using a skillful rotation and squashing the large number of FOTM players I run into.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

Moglijuana wrote: »

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

For all the people saying go and nerf cloak. Well here is my 2 cents. Go and play a nb, use cloak to get out of a sticky situation, and see if it works 75% it doesnt, and while your pvping and using cloak do tell us how it needs to be nerfed cuz a lot of things will bring u out of cloak. So unless you play a nightblade stop your bit**ing about nerfing cloak. Otherwise nerfing sorcs, nerfing dk's, nerf, templars. For the love of god. Just pvp and play your class and learn to counter that other class!

I have v16 NB...I still think Cloak is OP. I think AoE's should be able to pull you out, but DoTs shouldn't that way you can get rid of that free purge. The invisibility (and resistance with it) is enough of a defense. That would help DoT classes tremendously. I stopped playing my NB because of how easy it is. I now religiously play my Mag DK because it's fun using a skillful rotation and squashing the large number of FOTM players I run into.

Dark Cloak does so much, i still dont understand how NBs can justify it not being op and needing an adjustment.

Removes 4 DOTs
100% Dodge Chance when cast
Armor/Spell Resist Buff
Increases Health by 3% passively
Escape Unseen

*

WreckfulAbandon · December 2015

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

For all the people saying go and nerf cloak. Well here is my 2 cents. Go and play a nb, use cloak to get out of a sticky situation, and see if it works 75% it doesnt, and while your pvping and using cloak do tell us how it needs to be nerfed cuz a lot of things will bring u out of cloak. So unless you play a nightblade stop your bit**ing about nerfing cloak. Otherwise nerfing sorcs, nerfing dk's, nerf, templars. For the love of god. Just pvp and play your class and learn to counter that other class!

I have v16 NB...I still think Cloak is OP. I think AoE's should be able to pull you out, but DoTs shouldn't that way you can get rid of that free purge. The invisibility (and resistance with it) is enough of a defense. That would help DoT classes tremendously. I stopped playing my NB because of how easy it is. I now religiously play my Mag DK because it's fun using a skillful rotation and squashing the large number of FOTM players I run into.

Dark Cloak does so much, i still dont understand how NBs can justify it not being op and needing an adjustment.
Removes 4 DOTs

100% Dodge Chance when cast

Armor/Spell Resist Buff

Increases Health by 3% passively

Escape Unseen

*

...Because it comprises the entirety of a NB's class defense options?

Mobility is nice and all and dodge chance is not completely ineffectual, but still I don't see how ppl could justify nerfing the only viable defense mechanism of a class. Because that's what Cloak is, anyone can have dodge chance and it's 20%, nothing to rely too heavily on. NB's have no burst heal either.

NB's are just penalized because one of their best offensive and strategic skills is also their main defense skill. So yes, they're efficient in that sense. Threads like this mainly pop up because of NB's using Cloak offensively.

And no, cloak is not cheap to cast, a magicka NB has to sacrifice a considerable amount of damage to actually gain magicka by using Cloak repeatedly in a fight. Sure they can do "resets," if that's the issue then let's just remove the NB class and replace it because there is no point to NB's without stealth and yes, invisibility that isn't just a gimmick.

Tryxus · December 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

For all the people saying go and nerf cloak. Well here is my 2 cents. Go and play a nb, use cloak to get out of a sticky situation, and see if it works 75% it doesnt, and while your pvping and using cloak do tell us how it needs to be nerfed cuz a lot of things will bring u out of cloak. So unless you play a nightblade stop your bit**ing about nerfing cloak. Otherwise nerfing sorcs, nerfing dk's, nerf, templars. For the love of god. Just pvp and play your class and learn to counter that other class!

But QQing is easier soooooooooo why L2counter ?

And their argument for why they shouldn't have to L2counter is that they shouldn't have to bring something to counter it if they want to counter it. "Why should I have to use a detect pot or AOE ability to hard counter cloak?" Sigh.

omg do you all actually read? if its a learn to counter please explain how a magicka dk can kill a nb right now?

Ash Cloud
Detect Pots
Revealing Flare
any AoE
...

And since most MagBlades are Vamps too for the sneak speed & other stuffz... a couple of Lava Whips will take care of the rest

Darnathian wrote: »

you should have to slot a seperate ability like the THREE other classes. that is what makes cloak OP.

Again: Templars have their own Purge as well -> not a good argument

If the purge gets removed from the Cloak, then reentering stealth isn't possible anymore. MagBlades will be crippled then and the cycle will repeat: angry mob of MagBlades asking for other classes to get nerfed which ZOS will do, then more QQ,...

Instead of asking for nerfs, do smth constructive and assist the other classes by asking ZOS to boost them. Let them have their own OP skillz then instead of trying to ruin a class by taking away a key skill

tl;dr -> L2P and tell ZOS to boost DK and Temps

Autolycus · December 2015

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Dark Cloak does so much, i still dont understand how NBs can justify it not being op and needing an adjustment.
Removes 4 DOTs

100% Dodge Chance when cast

Armor/Spell Resist Buff

Increases Health by 3% passively

Escape Unseen

*

Dark Cloak only removes a single DoT, and has to be recast to remove additional DoTs. I would like to point out that for nearly a year after ESO launched, Shadow Cloak didn't even work at all, and NBs were simply unable to escape a DOT without purge. At this time it was wildly unbalanced, which is why it has since been fixed. Shadow Cloak isn't the most expensive skill in the game, but it's not cheap either. It takes a specific design to maintain a build that can sustain invisibility over extended or indefinite periods of time.

Also, Nightblades are inherently a squishier class. The dodge isn't exclusive to Nightblades, as any class has access to something that grants dodge. It is not 100% guaranteed dodge, as you claim. The armor/spell buff is temporary, which I believe is key, and this is referring to a passive ability that is available by slotting a shadow skill. It's not exclusive to Dark Cloak.

Additionally, there are a multitude of ways to prevent a NB from escaping unseen. Skills available to all include Revealing Flare, literally any AOE skill like impulse or mage rune. One can use detect potions, which I believe the most effective way. Every class has something they can use too. On my Sorcerer, I use Lightning Flood, Streak, and Daedric Curse. On my DK I use Chains and Talons in combination with detect pots. On my NB I use crippling grasp repeatedly until they are too magicka starved to cloak any longer.

The point is, it's not overpowered, because there are so many ways to combat it.

CP5 · December 2015

Autolycus wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Dark Cloak does so much, i still dont understand how NBs can justify it not being op and needing an adjustment.
Removes 4 DOTs

100% Dodge Chance when cast

Armor/Spell Resist Buff

Increases Health by 3% passively

Escape Unseen

*

Dark Cloak only removes a single DoT, and has to be recast to remove additional DoTs. I would like to point out that for nearly a year after ESO launched, Shadow Cloak didn't even work at all, and NBs were simply unable to escape a DOT without purge. At this time it was wildly unbalanced, which is why it has since been fixed. Shadow Cloak isn't the most expensive skill in the game, but it's not cheap either. It takes a specific design to maintain a build that can sustain invisibility over extended or indefinite periods of time.

Also, Nightblades are inherently a squishier class. The dodge isn't exclusive to Nightblades, as any class has access to something that grants dodge. It is not 100% guaranteed dodge, as you claim. The armor/spell buff is temporary, which I believe is key, and this is referring to a passive ability that is available by slotting a shadow skill. It's not exclusive to Dark Cloak.

Additionally, there are a multitude of ways to prevent a NB from escaping unseen. Skills available to all include Revealing Flare, literally any AOE skill like impulse or mage rune. One can use detect potions, which I believe the most effective way. Every class has something they can use too. On my Sorcerer, I use Lightning Flood, Streak, and Daedric Curse. On my DK I use Chains and Talons in combination with detect pots. On my NB I use crippling grasp repeatedly until they are too magicka starved to cloak any longer.

The point is, it's not overpowered, because there are so many ways to combat it.

At rank 1, have you looked at the tooltip since leveling it up or should I just say, it removes 4 at rank 4. Also its not really that true saying nightblades are 'inherently squishier'.

Which class gets the major resist buffs by using ANY skill from a whole tree, which class has a passive that gives max health per ability slotted from a whole tree. Which class can slot a skill to passively get the minor healing received buff. Add in that 2 of their ultimates are more than a little helpful in the 'surviving' department (60% damage reduction or sap health from 6 targets) and you can get bloody durable. Add in how cloak can purge 4 dots, triggers the resist buff and by simply having it slotted you get more health, and I have to say to any NB claimin they are squishy, that they haven't bothered looking at their class in a while. Honestly.

As for the last paragraph i'll say this. I did some testing once with a nb to see about escapability. Ever since then this player has been almost impossible to pin down because they know what they are doing, hint, spamming cloak and crawling in one direction isn't how that works, and no amount of 'just spam aoe's' will help against players like this.

Tryxus · December 2015

CP5 wrote: »

Which class gets the major resist buffs by using ANY skill from a whole tree

And which classes have skills to get the same results? Not NB

CP5 wrote: »

which class has a passive that gives max health per ability slotted from a whole tree

Every Class

CP5 wrote: »

Which class can slot a skill to passively get the minor healing received buff.

DK

CP5 wrote: »

Add in that 2 of their ultimates are more than a little helpful in the 'surviving' department (60% damage reduction or sap health from 6 targets) and you can get bloody durable.

OMG, I wonder what DK/Sorcs/Temps should do with this Vampire Skill... what's it called again? Devouring Swarm?

CP5 wrote: »

Add in how cloak can purge 4 dots, triggers the resist buff and by simply having it slotted you get more health, and I have to say to any NB claimin they are squishy, that they haven't bothered looking at their class in a while. Honestly.

Right...

DK have better resource management and are tankier
Sorcs have mobility and shields
Temps have so many self heals

What does the NB have?

Cloak and the means to gank (stealth)

So a last plea to the community:

Don't take Cloak away unless you all want NB to be worse off than Templars are now. Don't ask for nerfs, ask for the other classes to get boosted instead

Pretty please with a cherry on top

Autolycus · December 2015

CP5 wrote: »

At rank 1, have you looked at the tooltip since leveling it up or should I just say, it removes 4 at rank 4. Also its not really that true saying nightblades are 'inherently squishier'.

Which class gets the major resist buffs by using ANY skill from a whole tree, which class has a passive that gives max health per ability slotted from a whole tree. Which class can slot a skill to passively get the minor healing received buff. Add in that 2 of their ultimates are more than a little helpful in the 'surviving' department (60% damage reduction or sap health from 6 targets) and you can get bloody durable. Add in how cloak can purge 4 dots, triggers the resist buff and by simply having it slotted you get more health, and I have to say to any NB claimin they are squishy, that they haven't bothered looking at their class in a while. Honestly.

As for the last paragraph i'll say this. I did some testing once with a nb to see about escapability. Ever since then this player has been almost impossible to pin down because they know what they are doing, hint, spamming cloak and crawling in one direction isn't how that works, and no amount of 'just spam aoe's' will help against players like this.

How is using a VoB or a Soul Tether an advantage over Standard, Magma Armor, or Nova? You're talking about using an ultimate, which costs a significant amount, and it has similar characteristics to ultimates available to other classes.

The Shadow passives available to NBs cater to a playstyle. If your aim is to be durable, you're probably not relying on Shadow Cloak (i.e. a tank or hybrid build). When I say inherently squishy, I'm referring to the inability to cast burst heals, grant themselves massive damage shields, drop a rune that provides armor and spell resist.... the list can go on. A NB that wishes to be more survivable must play on those passives to do so, he/she can't just slot hardened ward or igneous shield to protect themselves. Oh, and by the way, Igneous shield grants the DK major mending.

I've been playing a NB since Beta. I have made tank, dps, and heal specs both magicka and stamina. My tank spec can single-handedly take on a group of 10-15 and win, depending on the opponents. So I know full and well the potential of a proper NB build. That doesn't mean I can run out into Cyrodiil and use cloak and suddenly I'm overpowered.

Most of the NBs who use cloak as a part of their standard rotation don't stack health. A NB with 20K max health is going to get about a 600-point increase in max health by slotting one Shadow skill. Does this really seem overpowered to you? That's 2/3 of the health you can get for one vr16 health glyph. Even if your whole bar is shadow skills, a couple thousand health isn't going to make you overpowered.

The fact remains, even with 4-dot removal, that there are plenty of options to combat cloak. Sure, someone who is experienced and knows what they're doing has a higher chance of pulling off an escape or using cloak offensively. I've taken on plenty of experienced NBs who use cloak as part of their standard rotation, players who are of high Cyrodiil rank and have clocked thousands of hours in PvP. They still die when I use a detect pot and immobilize them.

CP5 · December 2015

Tryxus wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Which class gets the major resist buffs by using ANY skill from a whole tree

And which classes have skills to get the same results? Not NB

CP5 wrote: »

which class has a passive that gives max health per ability slotted from a whole tree

Every Class I was saying a passive that gives max health. NB's are the only class with a passive like that.

CP5 wrote: »

Which class can slot a skill to passively get the minor healing received buff.

DK Which skill can a dk slot to get that buff? They need to keep recasting coagulating dragon blood for that, not just slot a skill.

CP5 wrote: »

Add in that 2 of their ultimates are more than a little helpful in the 'surviving' department (60% damage reduction or sap health from 6 targets) and you can get bloody durable.

OMG, I wonder what DK/Sorcs/Temps should do with this Vampire Skill... what's it called again? Devouring Swarm? Sorry, only 2 of the nb's passives are strong in terms of defense.

CP5 wrote: »

Add in how cloak can purge 4 dots, triggers the resist buff and by simply having it slotted you get more health, and I have to say to any NB claimin they are squishy, that they haven't bothered looking at their class in a while. Honestly.

Right...

DK have better resource management and are tankier 15% everything regen doesn't help at all
Sorcs have mobility and shields Shadow image teleport, 3 sources of the major speed buff
Temps have so many self heals

What does the NB have?

Cloak and the means to gank (stealth) Or to skillfully dodge select attacks and gain all the passives from it to survive

So a last plea to the community:

Don't take Cloak away unless you all want NB to be worse off than Templars are now. Don't ask for nerfs, ask for the other classes to get boosted instead

Pretty please with a cherry on top I'm just saying, the more nb's say they don't have much, that they are squishy and that they only have cloak, the more I have to laugh about that.

Tryxus · December 2015

CP5 wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Which class gets the major resist buffs by using ANY skill from a whole tree

And which classes have skills to get the same results? Not NB

CP5 wrote: »

which class has a passive that gives max health per ability slotted from a whole tree

Every Class I was saying a passive that gives max health. NB's are the only class with a passive like that.

CP5 wrote: »

Which class can slot a skill to passively get the minor healing received buff.

DK Which skill can a dk slot to get that buff? They need to keep recasting coagulating dragon blood for that, not just slot a skill.

CP5 wrote: »

Add in that 2 of their ultimates are more than a little helpful in the 'surviving' department (60% damage reduction or sap health from 6 targets) and you can get bloody durable.

OMG, I wonder what DK/Sorcs/Temps should do with this Vampire Skill... what's it called again? Devouring Swarm? Sorry, only 2 of the nb's passives are strong in terms of defense.

CP5 wrote: »

Add in how cloak can purge 4 dots, triggers the resist buff and by simply having it slotted you get more health, and I have to say to any NB claimin they are squishy, that they haven't bothered looking at their class in a while. Honestly.

Right...

DK have better resource management and are tankier 15% everything regen doesn't help at all
Sorcs have mobility and shields Shadow image teleport, 3 sources of the major speed buff
Temps have so many self heals

What does the NB have?

Cloak and the means to gank (stealth) Or to skillfully dodge select attacks and gain all the passives from it to survive

So a last plea to the community:

Don't take Cloak away unless you all want NB to be worse off than Templars are now. Don't ask for nerfs, ask for the other classes to get boosted instead

Pretty please with a cherry on top I'm just saying, the more nb's say they don't have much, that they are squishy and that they only have cloak, the more I have to laugh about that.

- Ever checked the Heavy Armor Skill tree? Or Mages Guild? It's not NB exclusive. Plus every class has unique passives that make the Max HP increase seem like a joke: decreased Ulti Cost, increased Spell Damage, Restoring resources,...
- Slotting or using skills,... not much of a difference there, is it?
- DK: extra regen, reflect skill, Fire Damage skills against Vamps, Magma Shell,...
- Sorc: Bolt Escape vs Shadow Image (and Shadow Image is rather gimmicky); Double Take and Refreshing Path vs Boundless Storm. Plus Sorcs still have their Shields
- Skillfully dodge select attacks and gain all the passives from it to survive... like an Assassin? I think that's pretty much the NB Job description
- Never said NB don't have much, I'm simply stating all of these things to show that NB (especially MagBlades) are heavily reliant on Cloak. If it were to be taken away, we'd lose extra effects on skills (Stun from Concealed Weapon for instance), the stealth damage passive

Cloak is a necessity for NB for us to do what we're supposed to do

The only change (made a thread about it once) it should receive would be a reduction (not 0%!!!) in Magicka Regen while the Cloak is up. But don't get rid of the purge or the invisibility or anything.

StamBlades would prob not feel any nerf to Cloak, but MagBlades would be crippled: no more stealth (Light Armor no good, lots of tripping cuz of our robes), reliant on sustain builds (but both Templar and Sorc sustain Magicka builds >>> MagBlade without Cloak) and DK would just slaughter us

CP5 · December 2015

Tryxus wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Which class gets the major resist buffs by using ANY skill from a whole tree

And which classes have skills to get the same results? Not NB

CP5 wrote: »

which class has a passive that gives max health per ability slotted from a whole tree

Every Class I was saying a passive that gives max health. NB's are the only class with a passive like that.

CP5 wrote: »

Which class can slot a skill to passively get the minor healing received buff.

DK Which skill can a dk slot to get that buff? They need to keep recasting coagulating dragon blood for that, not just slot a skill.

CP5 wrote: »

Add in that 2 of their ultimates are more than a little helpful in the 'surviving' department (60% damage reduction or sap health from 6 targets) and you can get bloody durable.

OMG, I wonder what DK/Sorcs/Temps should do with this Vampire Skill... what's it called again? Devouring Swarm? Sorry, only 2 of the nb's passives are strong in terms of defense.

CP5 wrote: »

Add in how cloak can purge 4 dots, triggers the resist buff and by simply having it slotted you get more health, and I have to say to any NB claimin they are squishy, that they haven't bothered looking at their class in a while. Honestly.

Right...

DK have better resource management and are tankier 15% everything regen doesn't help at all
Sorcs have mobility and shields Shadow image teleport, 3 sources of the major speed buff
Temps have so many self heals

What does the NB have?

Cloak and the means to gank (stealth) Or to skillfully dodge select attacks and gain all the passives from it to survive

So a last plea to the community:

Don't take Cloak away unless you all want NB to be worse off than Templars are now. Don't ask for nerfs, ask for the other classes to get boosted instead

Pretty please with a cherry on top I'm just saying, the more nb's say they don't have much, that they are squishy and that they only have cloak, the more I have to laugh about that.

- Ever checked the Heavy Armor Skill tree? Or Mages Guild? It's not NB exclusive. Plus every class has unique passives that make the Max HP increase seem like a joke: decreased Ulti Cost, increased Spell Damage, Restoring resources,...
- Slotting or using skills,... not much of a difference there, is it?
- DK: extra regen, reflect skill, Fire Damage skills against Vamps, Magma Shell,...
- Sorc: Bolt Escape vs Shadow Image (and Shadow Image is rather gimmicky); Double Take and Refreshing Path vs Boundless Storm. Plus Sorcs still have their Shields
- Skillfully dodge select attacks and gain all the passives from it to survive... like an Assassin? I think that's pretty much the NB Job description
- Never said NB don't have much, I'm simply stating all of these things to show that NB (especially MagBlades) are heavily reliant on Cloak. If it were to be taken away, we'd lose extra effects on skills (Stun from Concealed Weapon for instance), the stealth damage passive

Cloak is a necessity for NB for us to do what we're supposed to do

The only change (made a thread about it once) it should receive would be a reduction (not 0%!!!) in Magicka Regen while the Cloak is up. But don't get rid of the purge or the invisibility or anything.

StamBlades would prob not feel any nerf to Cloak, but MagBlades would be crippled: no more stealth (Light Armor no good, lots of tripping cuz of our robes), reliant on sustain builds (but both Templar and Sorc sustain Magicka builds >>> MagBlade without Cloak) and DK would just slaughter us

Few quick things, 1. I was referring to class specific abilities. Each class has access to those other methods of raising their health, but a NB can always buff it more. Slotting a skill and gaining its buff at all times is strong, having to recast a skill that is otherwise lack luster (CDB) is more of a strain on the few slots we have. Refreshing shadows (15% regen buff) is 50% stronger than the sorc's capacitor passive and is the same as a dk slotting 3 draconic power skills on both bars, and then some. Shadow image is very powerful and a nb that knows how to use it is far more evasive than a sorc spamming bolt could hope for.

And whats odd is the forum nb's can't seem to agree on this last thing, you say stam blades could take a cloak nerf but magicka ones would be broke, but i've also seen it the other way around, could anyone please clarify this inconsistency?

Also, just double reading before posting this, you also say how 'every class has unique passives that make max hp increase seem like a joke.' NB's can slot one syphoning skill on both bars (not that hard) for 8% max magicka, a sorc needs bound aegis, which to be honest, a 1% damage reduction with it is nothing when the alternative is 2 skills.

But thank you for the continued discussion, its just as the game is now NB's are in a fantastic position and I feel that they have the wool pulled so far over their own eyes that they don't see that they are the wolf.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

It's cute when a NB crys about having op skills but will then go ahead and request other classes be nerfed. It's a known fact that NBs are very overpowered. No one has said anything about reducing their damage. Everyone is simply in an agreeance that cloak needs to be revisited because on the small scale it is too powerful.

It's the same reason streak was touched so many times. No reason a single skill can purge, buff, and evade all in one with other benafits as well with no real prevention in place to keep it from being spammed.

*

Tryxus · December 2015

CP5 wrote: »

And whats odd is the forum nb's can't seem to agree on this last thing, you say stam blades could take a cloak nerf but magicka ones would be broke, but i've also seen it the other way around, could anyone please clarify this inconsistency?

Also, just double reading before posting this, you also say how 'every class has unique passives that make max hp increase seem like a joke.' NB's can slot one syphoning skill on both bars (not that hard) for 8% max magicka, a sorc needs bound aegis, which to be honest, a 1% damage reduction with it is nothing when the alternative is 2 skills.

But thank you for the continued discussion, its just as the game is now NB's are in a fantastic position and I feel that they have the wool pulled so far over their own eyes that they don't see that they are the wolf.

The main reason I believe MagBlades couldn't take a cloak nerf is the stealth factor:

StamBlades wear Medium Armor, which reduces Sneak Detect radius and there are plenty of Med Armor sets that boost sneaking in a way (there are crafted sets too, but they are stam based or not of use to MagBlades). MagBlades need Light Armor which doesn't boost Sneak, effectively forcing them to rely on Cloak to do the ganking or escaping

The reason I mentioned Unique Passives? Every Class has those passives that make it stand out or direct the class in a certain direction. Like how NB have that Damage Boost Passive while in Stealth, or Sorcs have Reduced Ulti Cost and Increased Spell Damage. When a Sorc has Hardened Ward slotted, they can use Devouring Swarm for less Ulti cost than other classes (always active tho) while a 2nd DS Passive increases HP recovery (nullifying the reduced HP Regen from being a Vamp).

Every class has their own combos, which makes me believe that a mere 8% extra HP isn't really that strong compared to other passives out there.

When I rerolled from a Sorc to a NB, I did so cuz I love Illusion magicks more than anything else in these type of games. But a guildie of mine mentioned that MagBlades would be Uber with the IC release.

Personally I don't notice it that much, there are plenty of better players out there than me who know how to combat a NB (or large groups where at least a few players def have Anti-gank skills equipped). But yeah, compared to my old DK, the NB def seems a step higher up the food chain (StamBlade more so)

I've played NB a lot since then, and I'm well aware of the class' combat capabilities and the value of Cloak. I'm fairly certain that if it got a true nerf, MagBlades would be out of commision.

And I love my MagBlade so much now, I'd hate to see it ruined and become a burden to fellow players in Cyrodiil.

Which is why I'd prefer if ZOS could buff the other classes instead of nerfing NB. They finally got NB right with the IC release, and both the Stamina and Magicka Builds work nicely. So yeah, if they could buff the other classes the same way (Mag DK, Stam Sorc, Stamplar, Magplar) that'd be nicer than seeing a 5th build type (MagBlade) added to the list

CP5 · December 2015

Tryxus wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

And whats odd is the forum nb's can't seem to agree on this last thing, you say stam blades could take a cloak nerf but magicka ones would be broke, but i've also seen it the other way around, could anyone please clarify this inconsistency?

Also, just double reading before posting this, you also say how 'every class has unique passives that make max hp increase seem like a joke.' NB's can slot one syphoning skill on both bars (not that hard) for 8% max magicka, a sorc needs bound aegis, which to be honest, a 1% damage reduction with it is nothing when the alternative is 2 skills.

But thank you for the continued discussion, its just as the game is now NB's are in a fantastic position and I feel that they have the wool pulled so far over their own eyes that they don't see that they are the wolf.

The main reason I believe MagBlades couldn't take a cloak nerf is the stealth factor:

StamBlades wear Medium Armor, which reduces Sneak Detect radius and there are plenty of Med Armor sets that boost sneaking in a way (there are crafted sets too, but they are stam based or not of use to MagBlades). MagBlades need Light Armor which doesn't boost Sneak, effectively forcing them to rely on Cloak to do the ganking or escaping

The reason I mentioned Unique Passives? Every Class has those passives that make it stand out or direct the class in a certain direction. Like how NB have that Damage Boost Passive while in Stealth, or Sorcs have Reduced Ulti Cost and Increased Spell Damage. When a Sorc has Hardened Ward slotted, they can use Devouring Swarm for less Ulti cost than other classes (always active tho) while a 2nd DS Passive increases HP recovery (nullifying the reduced HP Regen from being a Vamp).

Every class has their own combos, which makes me believe that a mere 8% extra HP isn't really that strong compared to other passives out there.

When I rerolled from a Sorc to a NB, I did so cuz I love Illusion magicks more than anything else in these type of games. But a guildie of mine mentioned that MagBlades would be Uber with the IC release.

Personally I don't notice it that much, there are plenty of better players out there than me who know how to combat a NB (or large groups where at least a few players def have Anti-gank skills equipped). But yeah, compared to my old DK, the NB def seems a step higher up the food chain (StamBlade more so)

I've played NB a lot since then, and I'm well aware of the class' combat capabilities and the value of Cloak. I'm fairly certain that if it got a true nerf, MagBlades would be out of commision.

And I love my MagBlade so much now, I'd hate to see it ruined and become a burden to fellow players in Cyrodiil.

Which is why I'd prefer if ZOS could buff the other classes instead of nerfing NB. They finally got NB right with the IC release, and both the Stamina and Magicka Builds work nicely. So yeah, if they could buff the other classes the same way (Mag DK, Stam Sorc, Stamplar, Magplar) that'd be nicer than seeing a 5th build type (MagBlade) added to the list

I would say that's a good way to wrap this up. Now if only zos would get around to balancing the classes to make them better. I honestly see NB's as being in the best position right now and as a milestone the other classes should be raised toward. They have options, the most in terms of useful skills/passives and synergies between their own skill lines and others. I just wish that balance passes weren't months apart so the meta could be adapted to something good, rather than tossed between bad and worst like it is now. Still would be interested to hear other nb's perspectives on which side would struggle more if cloak were nerfed.

Autolycus · December 2015

CP5 wrote: »

I would say that's a good way to wrap this up. Now if only zos would get around to balancing the classes to make them better. I honestly see NB's as being in the best position right now and as a milestone the other classes should be raised toward. They have options, the most in terms of useful skills/passives and synergies between their own skill lines and others. I just wish that balance passes weren't months apart so the meta could be adapted to something good, rather than tossed between bad and worst like it is now. Still would be interested to hear other nb's perspectives on which side would struggle more if cloak were nerfed.

If you are genuinely interested in the "what if" opinion, I'm happy to participate. I'll try to be brief and direct.

While I do not support the removal of shadow cloak, if it were to happen, I wouldn't quit playing a magicka NB. The reason I take this stance is because I really don't think shadow cloak makes my build. I would simple slot a different skill, because my build doesn't rely on shadow cloak to work. I also don't feel like I'd be any easier to kill without shadow cloak either. It's just a tool. It has it's place, and experienced players that have put considerable amount of time and effort into their build will be able to adjust.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

Autolycus wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I would say that's a good way to wrap this up. Now if only zos would get around to balancing the classes to make them better. I honestly see NB's as being in the best position right now and as a milestone the other classes should be raised toward. They have options, the most in terms of useful skills/passives and synergies between their own skill lines and others. I just wish that balance passes weren't months apart so the meta could be adapted to something good, rather than tossed between bad and worst like it is now. Still would be interested to hear other nb's perspectives on which side would struggle more if cloak were nerfed.

If you are genuinely interested in the "what if" opinion, I'm happy to participate. I'll try to be brief and direct.

While I do not support the removal of shadow cloak, if it were to happen, I wouldn't quit playing a magicka NB. The reason I take this stance is because I really don't think shadow cloak makes my build. I would simple slot a different skill, because my build doesn't rely on shadow cloak to work. I also don't feel like I'd be any easier to kill without shadow cloak either. It's just a tool. It has it's place, and experienced players that have put considerable amount of time and effort into their build will be able to adjust.

I dont think I've ever seen anyone request cloak be removed unless it came from NBs months of not well over a year ago when it was actually bugged. Currently in its form I feel it works as its intended and see no issues with it besides it being too strong In a small scale environment. With the introduction of arenas coming zos will certainly take a look at this skill and adjust it accordingly which will certainly happen.

*

CP5 · December 2015

Autolycus wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I would say that's a good way to wrap this up. Now if only zos would get around to balancing the classes to make them better. I honestly see NB's as being in the best position right now and as a milestone the other classes should be raised toward. They have options, the most in terms of useful skills/passives and synergies between their own skill lines and others. I just wish that balance passes weren't months apart so the meta could be adapted to something good, rather than tossed between bad and worst like it is now. Still would be interested to hear other nb's perspectives on which side would struggle more if cloak were nerfed.

If you are genuinely interested in the "what if" opinion, I'm happy to participate. I'll try to be brief and direct.

While I do not support the removal of shadow cloak, if it were to happen, I wouldn't quit playing a magicka NB. The reason I take this stance is because I really don't think shadow cloak makes my build. I would simple slot a different skill, because my build doesn't rely on shadow cloak to work. I also don't feel like I'd be any easier to kill without shadow cloak either. It's just a tool. It has it's place, and experienced players that have put considerable amount of time and effort into their build will be able to adjust.

Honestly I was just going for a 'which would really be impacted more' by that. I've seen a lot of players who primarily play nightblades say both things and it seems in both cases the advantages/disadvantages are just flopped. "Stamblades don't cloak often they'll be fine/Stamblades already can't cloak a lot and would suffer" vs "Magicka nb's can already spam cloak and wouldn't likely notice/Magicka nb's need cloak as a vital survival skill and would die" kind of thing, just seen both sides come up a lot and want opinions either or. Thank you for sharing yours here.

Eejit1331 · December 2015

Tryxus wrote: »

BTW, Templars don't need to slot purge, they have a purge in their skill list as well...

...

NERF TEMPLARS!!!

-runs from the angry Templar mob-
(I regret nothing)

Maybe purifying ritual should pull NB out of cloak.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

Nightblade insight.

Shadow Claok the base power and the Morph don't drop DoTs so when a DoT ticks it breaks your Cloak.

Meaning that the power is useless vs DoTs so you have to take Dark Cloak otherwise it's useless.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade insight.

Shadow Claok the base power and the Morph don't drop DoTs so when a DoT ticks it breaks your Cloak.

Meaning that the power is useless vs DoTs so you have to take Dark Cloak otherwise it's useless.

I don't think anyone is discussing the base morph or the crit morph as they are rarely used in pvp. Everyone is discussing how much Dark Cloak can do in itself through buffs and passives it benefits from. Te simple fact that it does so much while nothing comes close to that shows its power.

There honestly is no reason to take the crit one since cloak already buffs your weapon damage and spell damage as if your in stealth and that is just as beneficial as gaining 100% crit chance.

*

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

hammayolettuce wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade insight.

Shadow Claok the base power and the Morph don't drop DoTs so when a DoT ticks it breaks your Cloak.

Meaning that the power is useless vs DoTs so you have to take Dark Cloak otherwise it's useless.

I don't think anyone is discussing the base morph or the crit morph as they are rarely used in pvp. Everyone is discussing how much Dark Cloak can do in itself through buffs and passives it benefits from. Te simple fact that it does so much while nothing comes close to that shows its power.

There honestly is no reason to take the crit one since cloak already buffs your weapon damage and spell damage as if your in stealth and that is just as beneficial as gaining 100% crit chance.

*

Well that's the problem without removing DoTs it would be it's base form which is near unusable.

The base power or crit one would be great if not for DoTs it only last 2.9 seconds at max and most DoTs tick every .5 - 1.0 seconds so it's no worth getting a third of the time that why people don't use the other one.

Nightblades also lack strong heals so dropping off DoTs makes up for that.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade insight.

Shadow Claok the base power and the Morph don't drop DoTs so when a DoT ticks it breaks your Cloak.

Meaning that the power is useless vs DoTs so you have to take Dark Cloak otherwise it's useless.

I don't think anyone is discussing the base morph or the crit morph as they are rarely used in pvp. Everyone is discussing how much Dark Cloak can do in itself through buffs and passives it benefits from. Te simple fact that it does so much while nothing comes close to that shows its power.

There honestly is no reason to take the crit one since cloak already buffs your weapon damage and spell damage as if your in stealth and that is just as beneficial as gaining 100% crit chance.

*

Well that's the problem without removing DoTs it would be it's base form which is near unusable.

The base power or crit one would be great if not for DoTs it only last 2.9 seconds at max and most DoTs tick every .5 - 1.0 seconds so it's no worth getting a third of the time that why people don't use the other one.

Nightblades also lack strong heals so dropping off DoTs makes up for that.

4 DoTs is a lot. They pretty much removes every DoT a DK can apply to them making almost their entire class useless by 1 skill. NBs have stronger heals than DKs now as sad as that is.
*

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

hammayolettuce wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade insight.

Shadow Claok the base power and the Morph don't drop DoTs so when a DoT ticks it breaks your Cloak.

Meaning that the power is useless vs DoTs so you have to take Dark Cloak otherwise it's useless.

I don't think anyone is discussing the base morph or the crit morph as they are rarely used in pvp. Everyone is discussing how much Dark Cloak can do in itself through buffs and passives it benefits from. Te simple fact that it does so much while nothing comes close to that shows its power.

There honestly is no reason to take the crit one since cloak already buffs your weapon damage and spell damage as if your in stealth and that is just as beneficial as gaining 100% crit chance.

*

Well that's the problem without removing DoTs it would be it's base form which is near unusable.

The base power or crit one would be great if not for DoTs it only last 2.9 seconds at max and most DoTs tick every .5 - 1.0 seconds so it's no worth getting a third of the time that why people don't use the other one.

Nightblades also lack strong heals so dropping off DoTs makes up for that.

4 DoTs is a lot. They pretty much removes every DoT a DK can apply to them making almost their entire class useless by 1 skill. NBs have stronger heals than DKs now as sad as that is.
*

No still use our heals all heals not just Dragon Knight heals were cut by 50% Strife is still a better attack then heal but it does heal.

Sap, Mark and Killers Blade were all used before the healing nerf and are still used. Dragon Blood still heals having it going still grants 12% bonus healing from class passives. More health regen with a heal that's heal buffed and more healing or stamina regen that's a great power but cause it can't get you back to max in two hits DKs dropped it.

The problem is Nightblades have not stopped using our powers heals suck at the same level we just still use them. Burst was always our advantage.

4 DoTs is not OP no class shield or class burst heal in combat. Mages can't take many hits and StamBlades can't keep purging DoTs. I have died to good Dragon Knights DoTing the hell out of me then Whip spam you can't purg them all.

Aedaryl · December 2015

hammayolettuce wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade insight.

Shadow Claok the base power and the Morph don't drop DoTs so when a DoT ticks it breaks your Cloak.

Meaning that the power is useless vs DoTs so you have to take Dark Cloak otherwise it's useless.

I don't think anyone is discussing the base morph or the crit morph as they are rarely used in pvp. Everyone is discussing how much Dark Cloak can do in itself through buffs and passives it benefits from. Te simple fact that it does so much while nothing comes close to that shows its power.

There honestly is no reason to take the crit one since cloak already buffs your weapon damage and spell damage as if your in stealth and that is just as beneficial as gaining 100% crit chance.

*

Well that's the problem without removing DoTs it would be it's base form which is near unusable.

The base power or crit one would be great if not for DoTs it only last 2.9 seconds at max and most DoTs tick every .5 - 1.0 seconds so it's no worth getting a third of the time that why people don't use the other one.

Nightblades also lack strong heals so dropping off DoTs makes up for that.

4 DoTs is a lot. They pretty much removes every DoT a DK can apply to them making almost their entire class useless by 1 skill. NBs have stronger heals than DKs now as sad as that is.
*

Before, I hated cloak like you. Now, I'm playing a MagBlade, and really, the cloak is not overpowered. All classes can easely make NB out of cloak.

On my sorc, it's so easy, just streak in, they are stun, take damage and are visible, don't forget the Lightning armor that's a pain because NB can't cloak near you. Don't forget the mines too.

On Dk, it's easy too : 90% on magblade are Vampire. The mag dk just need to spam talons and cloak is really useless. Dks have a good armor and them fire skills are great against NB . The stam dk is the BEST classe in duel, so easy to kill every one. Them Jump ultimate is probably the best ultimate in PvP now.

Nb can counter cloak with mark or sap essence, fear.

I rarely fight templar on my NB, but they are them spam AoE ability, stamplar is good in PvP, but people don't wanna play it right...

And, don't forget detect potions, the OP stam tornado, all AoE, the guild mage skill.

NB don't need a cloak nerf, player just need to learn to counter it. But they don't want. They think it's more easy to cry.

Boost Mag Dk, Stam sorc and templar, don't nerf cloak.

Lucky28 · December 2015

hammayolettuce wrote: »

The fact that a Stamina sorc can only streak 2-3 times if lucky and a Stam NB can cloak 3+ times is the issue with cloak. Cloak in itself is worlds better than streak as an escape. When spammed it is a 100% dodge of an incoming dmg, you can move past any aggro while using cloak, magicka NBs can use it so much that fights can be reset where the mag blade recovers full resources.

Give cloak the streak cost treatment and the cries over NBs wont be as common.

*

Cloak is an issue however, the stacking cost increase needs to be removed from streak and not added to anything else period.

And yes i have played a nightblade.