Good defense for Stam Templar ?

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2015

AfkNinja wrote: »

Take your hybrid build to a 1v1 dueling tournament then report back to us how fast you were eliminated.

To get that magic pool, 16,000?, you have to make a compromise somewhere. Any skill, item, weapon, stat point etc you change to give you magic instead of stamina or wep dmg is lowing your DPS. Because Stamina also converts to Wep Dmg you are losing out x2. In return you are getting VERY small return on your overall healing because of the 50% nerf and the fact that all our heals only scale on magic. You're not being honest here, where are you getting that 16,000+ magic? To get that you're losing out somewhere around 5000-6000 stamina which directly converts into over 1000 wep dmg. My point is compared to a pure stamina Stamplar you're likely anywhere from 1000-2000 total wep dmg behind (when factoring max stamina AND wep dmg). That is a HUGE loss in dps and all it does is change your heal from about 3,000 to 6,000 which is still 1 heavy attack. You would be much better off dumping that magic into health for your shield or Stamina for dmg and rally/vigor scaling instead.

ANY build can work in pvp because lots of players there are clueless, if you are skilled you can make it work vs new players. But you're not going to make it effective vs other skilled players cause they will have higher dps than you, higher healing than you and better overall defense. They will wreck you while you stand there spamming breath of life and running out of magic. One CC and you are dead.

To top everything off you didn't even acknowledge my other points such as:

Why do Dragon Knights heal better than Templars?
Why is Stamplar the only class being forced to lose its class identity or severely hamper it's build to get some healing?

Plus we have even more issues with bugs and such. Like with Biting Jabs, if your opponent has a shield he just effectively made your Biting Jabs almost useless as you will not get the dmg bonus from it or crits.

Hybrid builds work great for solo PVE but in PVP you are at a big disadvantage vs specialized builds.

P.S. I want Hybrids to work, but we need soft caps back for that to be realistic.

The answer I think is simple. People wanted to be able to viably heal as a non-Templar in challenge content. ZoS made those changes to classes like DK by offering healing buffs along with giving stone fist a morph that does an aoe heal. These bonuses made healing stronger for all classes. They simultaneously nerfed Templar passives for healing outside of the class, by removing the bonus % to healing (All). Templar Restoring Light passives became far more situational after this update, and also narrowing. This is I would say one of the biggest problems with Templar right now, the class is far more confining than other classes in what it can do. Don't get me wrong I like the notion that all classes can do all roles well (Tank, WDPS, SDPS, Healing). I think this is how the game should be. I think Spellcrafting definitely should be added. The hard work they have to do is in balancing it all. Before the series of nerfs, Templar already had structural problems with the class. I'm not going to go into that, and I'll just end this by saying that I agree we really could use soft caps back.

AfkNinja · December 2015

Softly chanting "soft caps....soft caps....soft caps....soft caps....."

zornyan · December 2015

Soft caps should never have been removed, they really killed hybrids, and killed diversity. Since they removed them the meta is

Stack weapon or spell power and stam or magicka.

Win

Nerf templar some more

Break templar skills

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Why would I duel? I don't even care about dueling, never have. I play the game for fun i don't play it for anything competitive or serious, i play it for fun only. There are many duelers out there that play this game far better then me and my hats off to them, I have even had playful convos with a few of them, all great people. They have their 1v1 builds down to an art and have been practicing and honing their skill at it for quite sometime, and they are good at it because of it.

Secondly, being a Hybrid Templar is about utility, not damage...its not meant to go toe to toe with say a Stam blade and out damage him, thats not how it works, and it sure isn't meant to be a dueling or a 1v1 build in anyway, its meant to be viable in open world pvp under normal pvp conditions and there is a big difference there, Hybrid Stamplar is more of a support role that can chip in when needed. The only way a Hybrid Templar beats a Stam Blade or whatever is by using terrain and such to flatout out position and outplay him, a Hybrid Templar sure isn't going to beat him in a 1v1 duel in a war of attrition.

I use purple or blue food instead of drink, My Breton passives gives me more 10% max magicka, thats where it comes from.

Third: Being able to use your magic to heal when your low on stamina is an advantage in some situations. Being able to Eclipse an Overloading Sorc is an advantage in some cases as well. Being able to use Toppling Charge as a gap closer frees up stamina for another skill. Using Blazing Shield can buy you time to LOS enemies when your being focused on by multiple targets from range.

Fourth: Im not disagreeing with you. I think Templar healing passives should apply to skills like Vigor, and yes Templar does need help in some way...yes it sucks that Jabs is bugged against sheilds, im hopeful that gets fixed.

A hybrid Templar won't have the damage a pure speced Stamplar will have, but its not supposed to. I wanted to try stam and i didn't want my Breton Racial passives going to waste so i figured out a way to take advantage of them by using a few magic skills as a way to simply "dump magic" as passive utility.

The the Overload example above, im not going to use BOL to take the damage, im gonna Eclipse the Sorc, then dodge roll or LOS the nearest place I can, the Sorc has to break the Eclipse before he can continue, it buys time and stops the damage output, giving you time to adjust, be it sheilding yourself, etc...as a Hybrid I know im not gonna win that in a straight up fight, but what i can do is use my magic utility skills and dodge rolling stam skills to drag out the fight and do my best to string the Sorc back towards friendlies where he either gets chased away or killed...

I know im not going to win a straight up locking horns with a Stam or Magic focused class like Sorc's or Nightblades, but what i will do well is support my allies, bring utility to the fight. Its not speclizing in doing one thing well, its making the sum of all the average parts work at an above average rate.

Trust me, i'd rather re-roll a stamina race such as a Redguard, Khajiit, etc and roll a Nightblade but I don't have the patience to level another toon....so for now this will have to do me, I know there will be fights I can't win, and im OK with that, I also know i'll have to be far more careful with my positioning, but fighting at a disadvantage will only make my successes far more satisfying.

I really hope Templar's get the help we need though, I always have my Sorc to fall back on, but so far trying a Hybrid Templar has been fun for me, its not as bad as i originally thought it would be, not as good as a pure Stamplar either in terms of damage, but thats ok, its still fun and not FOTM so i will roll with it and i'll just have to learn to put myself in better positions thats all, it is what it is.

You keep talking about how great Eclipse is. Eclipse is great in theory, but the skill has always had problems, and they've been weakening it progressively the whole time the game has been out. Eclipse can be cc broken as well as purged, despite being a debuff. Eclipse should be Purge-only. If people don't have a purge on their bar, that's tough I guess. If ZoS made Eclipse like that, it would be a good skill. As it is though it is fairly horrible, and niche. I promise you, its not hard to break free from eclipse. Every time I have gotten Eclipse I'm happy about it, because they just gave me cc immunity. You should not be happy that someone attacked you. Apart from eclipsing a stupid atronach or bad players, or some niche duelling scenarios, this skill is not good. I wish people would quit bringing it up as though it were good because it needs fixing badly.

As for adapting your character I say good on you. I do the same thing actually. My top four characters have played around with just about every morph of every skill and every role I could mess with. I'm not as interested in peaking my #'s, doing good enough as I can do with the time I have to play. In other words I'm not on the bleeding edge of gear. I don't think you need to be to have fun with the game either. Finally, you learn a lot about your class when you play with it in different ways. I'm going to give an example. My Altmer Sorcerer, Arondonimo, was always meant to be either magic dps or a magic tank. In the early game I have to say he was phenomenal at being both at the same time. If people think Sorcerer is OP now, they didn't see what it use to be like. Bound Armor pushed my armor up to heavy armor levels for that day, but I had all the passive benefits of light armor. I soloed many dungeons, and carried the whole team by myself on many bosses with that character. I'm not saying this to brag, I'm making the point of the balance issue. This character has played the tank and magic dps roles, and I've run him through Stamina DPS and even had him become a werewolf for a time for the achievement. Stamina DPS is not the primary competency of a Altmer Sorc, but it actually worked out quite well. Storcs use a good # of magicka dumps, so it just meant that I could get a little more wild with my usage of those dumps. Would this character probably perform better in the Stamina role as a Redguard or Orc? Definitely. The key here though is that you can make a functional build with unlikely combinations.

I think the bigger story though is the variability between races. Some races are more confining in what they can do well or decently in. Khajiit for instance has very little to offer a non nightblade non weapon based build. Carnage applies to weapons dmg, the regeneration is useful but not excessively so, and stealthy will only be useful in thieving or potions/opening shots. The Khajiit excels at being a Stamblade, but the more you deviate from that style the less effective the character will be. If you are creative you'll use potions on a stamina khajiit sorcerer (a build I'd like to mess with some day) to stealth, but it is not something that would get the same usefulness out of a nightblade that can almost fire cloak at will. Other races have traits with very narrow usage as well: Argonians and the potion trait, Imperials and Red Diamond (melee only), Redguards and Adrenaline Rush (melee only), Altmer and Elemental damage bonus, Dunmer and Fire damage bonus, Bosmer (stealthy), Orc and Swift Warrior (weapon damage/spd buff). All of these traits have varying degrees of utility, as in the case of Orc's Swift Warrior. A mage could still get good usage out of the speed buff/cost reduction for instance. An Imperial/Redguard gets no usage out of Red Diamond/Adrenaline Rush unless they strike with a melee weapon. Interestingly, I find Nords and Bretons are very universal. No matter what your build is you can use the Nord and Breton traits. Bretons obviously lean toward magicka, but the spell resistance and reduced cost and max magicka can be useful on any build (everyone has a magicka dump, or should). Nords are clearly universal though, with the traits giving health, health regen, damage reduction, and cold resistance. The big complaint against Nords that I've seen is that they don't excel in any one area other than tanking (but I would argue their universal quality makes them ideal for anyone who wants the flexibility to change their build at any moment).

The question one might ask is why should we care about these racial differences. In previous TES games, race only mattered in the early development phase of the game. ESO strikes me as a little different in this regard, particularly with the removal of soft caps. I really would like to see them adjust the Constellations/Champion System so that all Racials can be mirrored by the Champion System. This MUST coincide with a soft cap system, or it could make numbers particularly broken (Example: Fire Mage Dunmer DK). With the right soft caps in place, and the right champion selections available, race could essentially be done away with as a vital choice in the long term of the game. This is really what I hope they do. I would much rather they had a system that we could mitigate/adjust our racials to achieve mastery in any field, than to have us pay to change our race.

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2015

No problem, no one is antagonizing

I know its not the best build you could have for a Templar, I know i could do better going full blown 100% magic or Stamina, but i wanted to try something different. So far im having fun with it.

As a Magic Templar if you want to do damage at all your confined to Puncturing Sweep spam that not only doesn't work against sheilds, but its easy to avoid, easy to counter, and just gives your enemy CC immunity. You cna try a Force Pulse Build with a Templar, but you will find a Sorc or a DK is far far better at it, and since my Sorc always uses Destro staff, why not try something different.

At the end of the day, it won't win you any dueling contests, but you sure will have a lot fun!

I do wish they would bring softcaps back though, gosh the return of Hybrids would be so nice for this game!

Swen_von_Walhallion · December 2015

Dracane wrote: »

And here ends the discussion, not going to take that from someone (you) who has no clue. Backlash CAN crit. Learn the game

And Purge is a huge boost for backlash. But you don't know why, because you've got no practical experience, only your dumb theories.

well i dont hink it can crit i using it in PvE on my stamplar with 75% wpn crit and never see crit it only hiting for dmg in tooltip ( i dont use backslash but power of the light morf for his debuf)

and about alcast i know he can put much morte then only 19k dps, i am rly not good as he and on deadroth in WGt can easy hold 20-22k dps for around 30s.

And staplars are in PvP in decent position only when using WB spam, bc if you using bitting jabs its rly easy avoid with roll dodge or step away. And DK or sorc as WB spamer are much more efective as stampalr, bc as stampal ouyr 2nd biggest dmg is from burning light proc which procing only on aedric spear abilities.

And with stamplar have lot of experience bc as pve and litle pvp i play it from launch ( and was rly hard at begining make decent dps as stamplar on trials)

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

No problem, no one is antagonizing

I know its not the best build you could have for a Templar, I know i could do better going full blown 100% magic or Stamina, but i wanted to try something different. So far im having fun with it.

As a Magic Templar if you want to do damage at all your confined to Puncturing Sweep spam that not only doesn't work against sheilds, but its easy to avoid, easy to counter, and just gives your enemy CC immunity. You cna try a Force Pulse Build with a Templar, but you will find a Sorc or a DK is far far better at it, and since my Sorc always uses Destro staff, why not try something different.

At the end of the day, it won't win you any dueling contests, but you sure will have a lot fun!

I do wish they would bring softcaps back though, gosh the return of Hybrids would be so nice for this game!

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the Breton spell resistance is nice to have, and adds to their universal quality. No matter what I think you're fine messing about with that role. I was just noting how some races are less optimal for certain purposes. Khajiit mages for instance are in a pickle because robust constitution is really the only semi-useful trait they'd have. I'm in agreement with you that puncturing sweeps isn't all that effective. I like the skill in pve, and I could be made to like the skill in pvp if they changed some fundamentals behind it. I mostly find I'm using 2 hander or dual wield for this purpose though, for the same reasons you mention.

zornyan · December 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

No problem, no one is antagonizing

I know its not the best build you could have for a Templar, I know i could do better going full blown 100% magic or Stamina, but i wanted to try something different. So far im having fun with it.

As a Magic Templar if you want to do damage at all your confined to Puncturing Sweep spam that not only doesn't work against sheilds, but its easy to avoid, easy to counter, and just gives your enemy CC immunity. You cna try a Force Pulse Build with a Templar, but you will find a Sorc or a DK is far far better at it, and since my Sorc always uses Destro staff, why not try something different.

At the end of the day, it won't win you any dueling contests, but you sure will have a lot fun!

I do wish they would bring softcaps back though, gosh the return of Hybrids would be so nice for this game!

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the Breton spell resistance is nice to have, and adds to their universal quality. No matter what I think you're fine messing about with that role. I was just noting how some races are less optimal for certain purposes. Khajiit mages for instance are in a pickle because robust constitution is really the only semi-useful trait they'd have. I'm in agreement with you that puncturing sweeps isn't all that effective. I like the skill in pve, and I could be made to like the skill in pvp if they changed some fundamentals behind it. I mostly find I'm using 2 hander or dual wield for this purpose though, for the same reasons you mention.

The issue with jabs is that originally it had 170%damage buff, but people QQ that, that in itself made templars OP so they actually pre nerfed us.

Funny isn't it? Dozens of threads weekly about shield stacking or insta gibbing etc and not a single zos comment, yet the second there's a qq thread about templars it's insta nerfed.

Destruent · December 2015

zornyan wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

No problem, no one is antagonizing

I know its not the best build you could have for a Templar, I know i could do better going full blown 100% magic or Stamina, but i wanted to try something different. So far im having fun with it.

As a Magic Templar if you want to do damage at all your confined to Puncturing Sweep spam that not only doesn't work against sheilds, but its easy to avoid, easy to counter, and just gives your enemy CC immunity. You cna try a Force Pulse Build with a Templar, but you will find a Sorc or a DK is far far better at it, and since my Sorc always uses Destro staff, why not try something different.

At the end of the day, it won't win you any dueling contests, but you sure will have a lot fun!

I do wish they would bring softcaps back though, gosh the return of Hybrids would be so nice for this game!

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the Breton spell resistance is nice to have, and adds to their universal quality. No matter what I think you're fine messing about with that role. I was just noting how some races are less optimal for certain purposes. Khajiit mages for instance are in a pickle because robust constitution is really the only semi-useful trait they'd have. I'm in agreement with you that puncturing sweeps isn't all that effective. I like the skill in pve, and I could be made to like the skill in pvp if they changed some fundamentals behind it. I mostly find I'm using 2 hander or dual wield for this purpose though, for the same reasons you mention.

The issue with jabs is that originally it had 170%damage buff, but people QQ that, that in itself made templars OP so they actually pre nerfed us.

Funny isn't it? Dozens of threads weekly about shield stacking or insta gibbing etc and not a single zos comment, yet the second there's a qq thread about templars it's insta nerfed.

I think it was changed during 1.6-PTS....so i won't call it a nerf...was more a kind of balancing. They changed a lot of numbers during this PTS-time...
Templars Problem (in PvE) isn't the damage of puncturing/biting...the problem is, we have nothing else to cast and improve our DPS...
backlash-->mostly DPS-loss
sunfire-->elemental dmg-->dps-loss
Spearshards-->DPS-loss

So we are stuck at using jabs (+ radiant)...

Mumyo · December 2015

Swannkyy wrote: »

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

Alec508 wrote: »

So I'm making a Templar and switched to stamina for the dps and could take any suggestions on what you use to defend yourself in 1v1 situations or 1vx? I was thinking blazing shield but heard it was nerfed . My heals aren't all that good considering I have very little magicka. So give me some idea that work for you

rerol on DK or NB if you want play stamina in pvp, templars are here in rly bad position.
On templars you can use some generick def skills aktive skils from heavy and medium armmor skilltree for boost your defence, or bone shield from undauted but it work only agais physikal dmg and rune focus from templar resto tree, for healing here are only two possibilities, momentum from 2H and vigor from PvP asault tree.

Stamina Templar is actually in a great place for PvP in my opinin, I've been playing great with it in 1v1 and 1vx situations. They have insane damage if you build your character well, while keeping decent recovery (I have around 4.2k Weapon Damage & 2.3k Stam Recovery). People have their own opinions, but my opinion is if you build right and learn to play a Stam Templar properly you will have no trouble with it in PvP.

I totally disagree on that. I have even better stats on my Templar than that ( but these are great btw) we almost built the same way.

But i exactly know that when i put the same gear on my nb or dk, that they will do way better. Jabs is great dmg when used properly but it has too many issues.

If u do a 1to1 comparison to any other class and its passives as active abilities, its a simple fact that templar will lose.
Purge is the best we got and thats a thing no other class can even get close to but its not enough.

I say indeed that templar can be a awesome killer in pvp, i really have lots of fun but its not balanced.

I wouldnt even say it needs a buff but truly some changes as other classes need nerfs before this game gets 1 big oneshot.

melloni_aleb16_ESO · December 2015

For my experience ( personal..) Stamplar ( i play it! ) is significantly lower than other 3 classes stamina version.
As all classes stamina is fun , but Stamplar have shuffle or elude as only defence and hasn't no skill mobility ( class ).
B. shield are useless and required too much magicka.
Jabs is a static skill that makes you hit easily ( not a istant hit as Surprise attack for example..) , it's good for noob ..not for veteran

Templar don't have Ultimate with burst damage as Leap and soul harvest ( or another morph ) that can be inserted in a combo , dawnbreaker is forced choice.
Stamplar must have a differentiation on the stamina-heals ( passive ) or simply must have the conversion of skills to heals Magicka to stamina (but with valor more low ).It's a class with heal passive , must be able to self-heal also in a stamina version ( with own class skill )
Surely have many CP is a good help , ,.... must also understand where to put them

I prefer less weapon damage ( 2900-3000k ) but longer sustain ( 2800-2900 regen stamina )..

My 2 cent

p.s

obviously I do not speak to play in Zerg , if you play in Zerg any set-up is fine ( mono skill -> steel tornado , steel tornado , steel tornado o jabs jabs jabs jabs ecc ) " the game of " pro-player "

zornyan · December 2015

Destruent wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

No problem, no one is antagonizing

I know its not the best build you could have for a Templar, I know i could do better going full blown 100% magic or Stamina, but i wanted to try something different. So far im having fun with it.

As a Magic Templar if you want to do damage at all your confined to Puncturing Sweep spam that not only doesn't work against sheilds, but its easy to avoid, easy to counter, and just gives your enemy CC immunity. You cna try a Force Pulse Build with a Templar, but you will find a Sorc or a DK is far far better at it, and since my Sorc always uses Destro staff, why not try something different.

At the end of the day, it won't win you any dueling contests, but you sure will have a lot fun!

I do wish they would bring softcaps back though, gosh the return of Hybrids would be so nice for this game!

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the Breton spell resistance is nice to have, and adds to their universal quality. No matter what I think you're fine messing about with that role. I was just noting how some races are less optimal for certain purposes. Khajiit mages for instance are in a pickle because robust constitution is really the only semi-useful trait they'd have. I'm in agreement with you that puncturing sweeps isn't all that effective. I like the skill in pve, and I could be made to like the skill in pvp if they changed some fundamentals behind it. I mostly find I'm using 2 hander or dual wield for this purpose though, for the same reasons you mention.

The issue with jabs is that originally it had 170%damage buff, but people QQ that, that in itself made templars OP so they actually pre nerfed us.

Funny isn't it? Dozens of threads weekly about shield stacking or insta gibbing etc and not a single zos comment, yet the second there's a qq thread about templars it's insta nerfed.

I think it was changed during 1.6-PTS....so i won't call it a nerf...was more a kind of balancing. They changed a lot of numbers during this PTS-time...
Templars Problem (in PvE) isn't the damage of puncturing/biting...the problem is, we have nothing else to cast and improve our DPS...
backlash-->mostly DPS-loss
sunfire-->elemental dmg-->dps-loss
Spearshards-->DPS-loss

So we are stuck at using jabs (+ radiant)...

It was still a nerf, one which their looking at reverting from what they've said, as aoe cone abilities aren't working as intended, that they should have a damage increase due to being much harder to hit with than generic aoe or single target attacks.

Haquor · December 2015

for offence: invasion, ransack, biting jabs, javelin (for funzies)

for defence: shuffle, total dark, defensive stance, dodge roll, a strong offence.

Ezareth · December 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

It remains to be said, the single best templars around like alcast have stopped using stamplars completly because they are the single worst class I'm pvp and pve.

Only an idiot would die to purifying light, but any decent player will put a templar immediately on the defensive, and since templars lack defence it's the end of them

I don't know if I would go that far, sure Stam Templars need a little bit of help, but they are not as bad off as Sorc's were in 1.5.

I was practically an unkillable God in 1.5 compared to now. Stamplars are far worse off right now than Sorcs were in 1.5

AfkNinja · December 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

It remains to be said, the single best templars around like alcast have stopped using stamplars completly because they are the single worst class I'm pvp and pve.

Only an idiot would die to purifying light, but any decent player will put a templar immediately on the defensive, and since templars lack defence it's the end of them

I don't know if I would go that far, sure Stam Templars need a little bit of help, but they are not as bad off as Sorc's were in 1.5.

I was practically an unkillable God in 1.5 compared to now. Stamplars are far worse off right now than Sorcs were in 1.5

Just to clarify you're comparing Stam Sorc from 1.5 to Stam Templar yes? Or Magicka Sorc?

Alec508 · December 2015

AfkNinja wrote: »

Softly chanting "soft caps....soft caps....soft caps....soft caps....."

Ive tried out magicka sorc last night and was killing so many people last night

I'd have to agree now that stamplars are in a bad place, it's better to go magicka

Zinaroth · December 2015

AfkNinja wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I'm not defending/fighting Templar or something. I don't think, it's that good. It has the biggest amount of appealing and usefull abilities out of all classes for me, but the numbers are just too bad, that's all.

I think, Templar needs damage buffs and then it's going to look much better. Though I still think, it's time to expand skilllines to level 60 and introduce a new active and passive ability for each. Templar gets this Sunjump to become better in 1vx and everyone's happy.

Exactly why I was so excited when Gina asked us to compile our issues. For once I finally have a tiny bit of hope that Templar will be balanced again and I can resume my Stamplar and not feel gimp at every event.

Awh how cute, a Templar player with hope in ZOS. How does it feel to be near-extinct? xD

Ezareth · December 2015

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

It remains to be said, the single best templars around like alcast have stopped using stamplars completly because they are the single worst class I'm pvp and pve.

Only an idiot would die to purifying light, but any decent player will put a templar immediately on the defensive, and since templars lack defence it's the end of them

I don't know if I would go that far, sure Stam Templars need a little bit of help, but they are not as bad off as Sorc's were in 1.5.

I was practically an unkillable God in 1.5 compared to now. Stamplars are far worse off right now than Sorcs were in 1.5

Just to clarify you're comparing Stam Sorc from 1.5 to Stam Templar yes? Or Magicka Sorc?

Magicka Sorcs. Stam sorcs in 1.5 were nonexistent in my memory but I suppose that is what Rinaldo was refferring to after going back and reading his comment. 1.5 Stam sorcs were easily the worst build in the history of the game.

Abob · December 2015

Let's make a stamplar tournament to test our builds!