AP Gains for solo/duo vs large/ball/zerg groups - Actual numbers!

Minno · December 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

It's interesting that no one here talk about the fact that after X players in group, the number of AP gained doesn't diminish anymore which is a big problem.

AP should be provided to people contributing, not people inside the tick area playing with one hand.

My argument in that AP thread was essentially "how is AP used in relation to game points/objectives?"

At the end of the day, besides buying motifs, AP gets you access to a one-directional way of playing the field; emp status. To gain AP requires kills at specific locations or at chokepoints for farming. To gain emp requires groups and multiple groups.

Currently, that aspect of play pushes the incentive to drastically change the map. It also requires you to be in a large group to effectively gain AP and push for emp.

So while, based on crown's numbers, a solo player can make as much as larger group, the incentive is non-existent since in order to become emp you require the services of a large group to coordinate the odds. It serves zero reason to play small group playstyles.

In that AP thread I called for a review of how AP is rewarded and argued that an objective based AP gain system over the kill based system would add more valuable play without dismissing either playstyle. Current system rewards large groups over smaller groups, mostly because you have only one reward status worth fighting for (emp) which can only be rewarded when playing extensively with a large group. And the one-directional system pushes more players/groups to ignore map plays for AP farms.

Moving to an objective AP gain system, can also open the door for ZOS to tailor quests/rewards for both styles of play. At this point I'd welcome the new challenges and it would give fresh play to pvp.

frozywozy · December 2015

Minno wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's interesting that no one here talk about the fact that after X players in group, the number of AP gained doesn't diminish anymore which is a big problem.

AP should be provided to people contributing, not people inside the tick area playing with one hand.

My argument in that AP thread was essentially "how is AP used in relation to game points/objectives?"

At the end of the day, besides buying motifs, AP gets you access to a one-directional way of playing the field; emp status. To gain AP requires kills at specific locations or at chokepoints for farming. To gain emp requires groups and multiple groups.

Currently, that aspect of play pushes the incentive to drastically change the map. It also requires you to be in a large group to effectively gain AP and push for emp.

So while, based on crown's numbers, a solo player can make as much as larger group, the incentive is non-existent since in order to become emp you require the services of a large group to coordinate the odds. It serves zero reason to play small group playstyles.

In that AP thread I called for a review of how AP is rewarded and argued that an objective based AP gain system over the kill based system would add more valuable play without dismissing either playstyle. Current system rewards large groups over smaller groups, mostly because you have only one reward status worth fighting for (emp) which can only be rewarded when playing extensively with a large group. And the one-directional system pushes more players/groups to ignore map plays for AP farms.

Moving to an objective AP gain system, can also open the door for ZOS to tailor quests/rewards for both styles of play. At this point I'd welcome the new challenges and it would give fresh play to pvp.

In other words, make emperorship works with the score points instead of alliance points. SOLD!

Zheg · December 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's interesting that no one here talk about the fact that after X players in group, the number of AP gained doesn't diminish anymore which is a big problem. AP should be provided to people contributing, not people inside the tick area playing with one hand.

@frozywozy There was a point I made in another thread on this topic that was very long and I'm too lazy to look it up. The short version is that it's not realistic / feasible to determine how many people contributed in what way. The tank spec person who absorbs hits, the cc/fear person who doesn't do damage but otherwise takes people out of the fight, the person running a retreating build to get rid of snares for the group, the person purging, the healer who didn't need to heal anyone more than a tiny amount as the group killed opponents so fast that they didn't do any damage back, the scout watching for a stealth group moving to bomb, all of those bring value to the group - and possibly only a handful will do enough damage to opponents to count towards the majority AP results.

Saying, "it's not fair to everyone" is one thing, though a proposal on how to balance it out to make it fair to the roles / responsibilities I listed above could help the ZOS people (shout out to @ZOS_GinaBruno - I just picked you as I have no idea who the right person should be to pay attention to this point) to figure things out long term.

I have read the thread you are reffering to. And I think you are going way too far into details. Only things that needs calculation are the following two points :

1) AP gains should be given to said player accordingly to the % of damage he delt to dead target
2) AP gains should be given to said player accordingly to his own healing
3) AP gains shoud be given to said player accordingly to the

Minno wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's interesting that no one here talk about the fact that after X players in group, the number of AP gained doesn't diminish anymore which is a big problem.

AP should be provided to people contributing, not people inside the tick area playing with one hand.

My argument in that AP thread was essentially "how is AP used in relation to game points/objectives?"

At the end of the day, besides buying motifs, AP gets you access to a one-directional way of playing the field; emp status. To gain AP requires kills at specific locations or at chokepoints for farming. To gain emp requires groups and multiple groups.

Currently, that aspect of play pushes the incentive to drastically change the map. It also requires you to be in a large group to effectively gain AP and push for emp.

So while, based on crown's numbers, a solo player can make as much as larger group, the incentive is non-existent since in order to become emp you require the services of a large group to coordinate the odds. It serves zero reason to play small group playstyles.

In that AP thread I called for a review of how AP is rewarded and argued that an objective based AP gain system over the kill based system would add more valuable play without dismissing either playstyle. Current system rewards large groups over smaller groups, mostly because you have only one reward status worth fighting for (emp) which can only be rewarded when playing extensively with a large group. And the one-directional system pushes more players/groups to ignore map plays for AP farms.

Moving to an objective AP gain system, can also open the door for ZOS to tailor quests/rewards for both styles of play. At this point I'd welcome the new challenges and it would give fresh play to pvp.

In other words, make emperorship works the the score points instead of alliance points. SOLD!

And the people focusing on rapids or siege shields? The scouts you send in ahead? The people focusing on rezzes? They should all earn less because they aren't healing or doing damage, even though at times theyre crucial to group survival? How would you measure their contributions? Group distribution based on players in group is the easiest and probably fairest. If people don't feel like it's valuable enough to have someone focused on keeping siege shields up, they'll either run without them or change the role. But... No group I know of makes support decisions based on AP, it's always whether the contribution to group warrants the spot over another dps or healer.

frozywozy · December 2015

@Zheg - was a mistake to post that part, I started writing the reply then realized what Crown was talking about regarding tanks and people with secondary roles and decided to removed it.

Minno · December 2015

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's interesting that no one here talk about the fact that after X players in group, the number of AP gained doesn't diminish anymore which is a big problem. AP should be provided to people contributing, not people inside the tick area playing with one hand.

@frozywozy There was a point I made in another thread on this topic that was very long and I'm too lazy to look it up. The short version is that it's not realistic / feasible to determine how many people contributed in what way. The tank spec person who absorbs hits, the cc/fear person who doesn't do damage but otherwise takes people out of the fight, the person running a retreating build to get rid of snares for the group, the person purging, the healer who didn't need to heal anyone more than a tiny amount as the group killed opponents so fast that they didn't do any damage back, the scout watching for a stealth group moving to bomb, all of those bring value to the group - and possibly only a handful will do enough damage to opponents to count towards the majority AP results.

Saying, "it's not fair to everyone" is one thing, though a proposal on how to balance it out to make it fair to the roles / responsibilities I listed above could help the ZOS people (shout out to @ZOS_GinaBruno - I just picked you as I have no idea who the right person should be to pay attention to this point) to figure things out long term.

I have read the thread you are reffering to. And I think you are going way too far into details. Only things that needs calculation are the following two points :

1) AP gains should be given to said player accordingly to the % of damage he delt to dead target
2) AP gains should be given to said player accordingly to his own healing
3) AP gains shoud be given to said player accordingly to the

Minno wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

It's interesting that no one here talk about the fact that after X players in group, the number of AP gained doesn't diminish anymore which is a big problem.

AP should be provided to people contributing, not people inside the tick area playing with one hand.

My argument in that AP thread was essentially "how is AP used in relation to game points/objectives?"

At the end of the day, besides buying motifs, AP gets you access to a one-directional way of playing the field; emp status. To gain AP requires kills at specific locations or at chokepoints for farming. To gain emp requires groups and multiple groups.

Currently, that aspect of play pushes the incentive to drastically change the map. It also requires you to be in a large group to effectively gain AP and push for emp.

So while, based on crown's numbers, a solo player can make as much as larger group, the incentive is non-existent since in order to become emp you require the services of a large group to coordinate the odds. It serves zero reason to play small group playstyles.

In that AP thread I called for a review of how AP is rewarded and argued that an objective based AP gain system over the kill based system would add more valuable play without dismissing either playstyle. Current system rewards large groups over smaller groups, mostly because you have only one reward status worth fighting for (emp) which can only be rewarded when playing extensively with a large group. And the one-directional system pushes more players/groups to ignore map plays for AP farms.

Moving to an objective AP gain system, can also open the door for ZOS to tailor quests/rewards for both styles of play. At this point I'd welcome the new challenges and it would give fresh play to pvp.

In other words, make emperorship works the the score points instead of alliance points. SOLD!

And the people focusing on rapids or siege shields? The scouts you send in ahead? The people focusing on rezzes? They should all earn less because they aren't healing or doing damage, even though at times theyre crucial to group survival? How would you measure their contributions? Group distribution based on players in group is the easiest and probably fairest. If people don't feel like it's valuable enough to have someone focused on keeping siege shields up, they'll either run without them or change the role. But... No group I know of makes support decisions based on AP, it's always whether the contribution to group warrants the spot over another dps or healer.

Entirely up to the community since that idea requires everyone to talk about it.

Currently your lvl of success is judge based on how your group slots players. No scout, you become easily lead into traps or hit targets too heavily defended. No healers, you wipe faster and easily. And AP is dispersed normally after DPS conclude their kills (based on comments from other players saying the objectives are meaningless and they would rather go out to farm/kill players). AP is awarded at each tick location based on players killed.

Under objective based, winner side gains AP after objective is taken. Flat rate, multiplied based on players present; no kills.

Or you can separate each role via each role type.
DPS gain AP based on kills/dmg dealt, healers based on hit points returned, and tanks with abilities synergized/dmg mitigated/dmg deflected from group. At flip of objective, number is tallied or it can trickle in.

As of right now, system prefers DPS/emp/large group. Tanks, healers, objective only effect the game slightly and it should be a balance between them all.

Minno · December 2015

If we tally each role uniquely, we can also better utilize the grouping tool to do the following:

1) disperse meaningful rewards at end of quest/offer additional ladder system for rewards.
2) organize players to lower pop campaigns fairly and reduce lag
3) offer specific objectives to earn additional AP (i.e. Defeat x players at lovers hill.)
4) allow LFG players to get involved.
5) turn IC into a small group arena without physical changes to environment. (Though it should get finished )

Obviously it should be addressed so that it doesn't remove the need for coordinated groups. And EMP can stay since it helps give large groups a reason to fight/change the map.

Erondil · December 2015

The thing is, you probably have 24k AP/h average in a group of 16 playing the map while you could farm AP easily at a much better rate with such group. (If you have 24k AP/hour average and your best hour is 55k AP/h while you try to AP farm with 16 man group, you're doing something wrong). On the other hand when you play solo ganking as you did is pretty much the best way to earn AP (on a ressource for ticks). Also solo it depends a lot of the state of the campaign (lag or not, if you can find small group or ennemies or not etc) while in group of 16 you can still kill stuff in lag (to an extent ofc) and can kill groups of every size if you're good enough.
Anyway I don't think comparing AP/hour is really relevant, the issue isn't the potential AP/hour itself, it's that in a group of 16 overall gain more AP/kill than a guy solo, you create AP just because you're in group. That imo, is bs and needs to go.

AverageJo3Gam3r · December 2015

Does anyone else think you should get a small amount of AP from killing opposing NPCs? On the order of 25 or so AP? I mean, why am I not helping my alliance when I kill a pact mender? It would make capturing resources more valuable to do, and may even encourage small group raids behind enemy lines to capture resources and get easy AP by taking out NPCs, adding variety to the front that doesn't exist today due to the back-and-forth struggle for the emp keeps.

IxSTALKERxI · December 2015

Crown wrote: »

I've spent the past few days mostly solo or duo / ganking with only 2-3 hours in the evening running in our normal Rage (Tuesday) and Victorem (Wednesday) groups.

I averaged about 23K AP / hour solo (over 7 hours of play), and 27K / hour duo (over 6 hours of play) with my wife as a magicka Templar - and I on my NB.

My best hour solo was close to 40K, and my worst hour solo was 11K.

Most of the time we got the 20% AP buff (probably close to 80% up time while playing).

When in larger groups, we do not usually get the AP buff, as the time spent away from the group and on load screens tends to be a net loss of AP - as compared to the AP gains of the group killing opponents while gone getting the buff.

Over the past 30 hours of play (yes, I keep track) in groups over 16 people, I've averaged 24K / hour, with my best hour being 55K (including a 14K offensive tick @Bleakers) and worst being 13K.

Rage hasn't been trying to farm AP though. So those numbers are just from trying to stay logged into Lagzura's and attempt to have fun in a slide show. If we were actually playing with AP in mind and we weren't getting lagged out by 120 enemies those numbers would be a lot higher.

I'm still of the opinion that 16+ players earn more AP than what they should, partly because of the current meta and poor balance on a large scale.

Sypher · December 2015

Manoekin wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

As a solo player when the population is Low-High I tend to make a lot of AP and can pass up the ap gain of most groups.

Around prime time though, when the population locks kick in and latency issues kick in. Less small groups, less solo players, and less opportunity are presented.

Basically, I can go from 40k/hour and drop down to 5k/hour as soon as prime time hits.

Keep in mind though, this is from an experienced solo player. Inexperienced players or people not running FOTM solo builds will rarely hit these numbers.

We saw last iteration on the first day that wasn't true...the closest you got to passing me before i logged off all day was 12k and then it spiked back up to a 20k lead after one fight at aleswell mine...this was even during the low-high population hours of the early afternoon before prime time

Sure you can probably make more than the pvp guilds that aren't as established as rage or victorem (new misfits for those that don't know) just to name a few, but there aren't many of them around...most of the players in the top 20 on their faction belong to established guilds

Don't get me wrong, you personally gain an insane amount of AP as a solo player and i was impressed that you kept up as long as you did, but because groups are fighting larger amounts of players at once, we're going to make more based on fighting more numbers

That's why I said most groups. I was either 2nd/3rd for the first 2 days and 1st place for most of the third day. So it's definitely possible. Just takes a lot more time/effort to accomplish as a solo player.

Next time bro, don't say it ahead of time :P So many people logged on just to block your emp. You should try again.

I've never seen so many blues in my life on that day. If I go for it again I won't stream it of course.

IxSTALKERxI · December 2015

Every problem with this game is caused by the current meta. The way AP has been calculated hasn't changed as far as I'm aware, other then the d tick being reduced to 1 minute instead of 2.

-Removing dynamic ulti gain
-Nerfing active defences such as shields, block and dodge roll
-Changing battle spirit to increase TTK and making it less effective to out heal damage from multiple sources.

These changes has nerfed the capabilities of 1vX and small scale. They have made running in large groups a stronger alternative.

These changes have therefore changed the AP/hr rates for different sized groups to be more favourable towards larger groups.

Satiar · December 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

I've spent the past few days mostly solo or duo / ganking with only 2-3 hours in the evening running in our normal Rage (Tuesday) and Victorem (Wednesday) groups.

I averaged about 23K AP / hour solo (over 7 hours of play), and 27K / hour duo (over 6 hours of play) with my wife as a magicka Templar - and I on my NB.

My best hour solo was close to 40K, and my worst hour solo was 11K.

Most of the time we got the 20% AP buff (probably close to 80% up time while playing).

When in larger groups, we do not usually get the AP buff, as the time spent away from the group and on load screens tends to be a net loss of AP - as compared to the AP gains of the group killing opponents while gone getting the buff.

Over the past 30 hours of play (yes, I keep track) in groups over 16 people, I've averaged 24K / hour, with my best hour being 55K (including a 14K offensive tick @Bleakers) and worst being 13K.

Rage hasn't been trying to farm AP though. So those numbers are just from trying to stay logged into Lagzura's and attempt to have fun in a slide show. If we were actually playing with AP in mind and we weren't getting lagged out by 120 enemies those numbers would be a lot higher.

I'm still of the opinion that 16+ players earn more AP than what they should, partly because of the current meta and poor balance on a large scale.

Hey, as pretty much the only resistance at Aleswell I don't ever want to hear Yellow talking about a blue Zerg

On an AP note, back on early Thornblade I used to keep top 2% off ganking. Never more than 4 of us, mostly evenings. We'd gank raid back lines and do supply line fights, no ticks. Never had trouble staying competitive.

Though I think goes without saying, if you want Emp you prob need teammates helping you get bulk gains when you need them.

Derra · December 2015

Crown wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

You understand people have an issue in ap bonuses awarded per kill which are undeniably existant? It has nothing to do with ap/h you can potentially make but everything with the ap awarded for one kill and the associated rewards (maybe - but not neccessarily take into account risk taken).

@Derra it SHOULD all come down to AP / hour. Long term, that's what is most important for emperor, campaign rewards, and alliance rank. A good solo player may kill 3 opponents for a total of 3K AP in the same time that a group of 24 kills an opposing 24 for a total of 3K AP. If you put in the same amount of time at the same level of skill, you should make the same AP per hour. That is what balances things out for players regardless of group size, and right now based on the math that I've seen, it is relatively balanced with the exception of prime time due to lag / latency.

If there was no lag / latency spike during prime time with a lot of players, then a good solo player (shout out to @Sypher ) would probably make even more AP than a group of 24 just because it's so much easier to instagib 2-3 people on the back line of a raid or moving from one place to another.

Well i´ll just have to disagree then. If someone in a 3 man grp makes the same ap as someone in a 24 man grp (both in their best imaginable scenario) there is no incentive to run in a smaller grp than cap at all because it increases the risk of dying.

This leads to everyone casually pvping (or pvping for ap) running in bigger and bigger grp - making it harder for people looking for smaller fights to find them.
In my opinion the incentive big grps create by lowering the risk of dying (unfun) has to be counterweighted by big grps offering a lower ap/h than smaller ones (your argument is also kind of flawed when you figure in that ultimately for bigger grps ap/h is limited by the amount of enemies they have - for smallman and solo play you need a balance with enough enemies but not too many to constantly die bc outnumbered).

Crown · December 2015

Derra wrote: »

If someone in a 3 man grp makes the same ap as someone in a 24 man grp (both in their best imaginable scenario) there is no incentive to run in a smaller grp than cap at all because it increases the risk of dying.

That's exactly my point! There should be no incentive to run small or big - you SHOULD be able to run whatever size group you want and have the capability to make the same AP.

Ishammael · December 2015

Satiar wrote: »

Though I think goes without saying, if you want Emp you prob need teammates helping you get bulk gains when you need them.

All i could think of when I read this is a bunch of dudes all giving each other their 'roid shots.

Pchela · December 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Though I think goes without saying, if you want Emp you prob need teammates helping you get bulk gains when you need them.

All i could think of when I read this is a bunch of dudes all giving each other their 'roid shots.

that's what the AP delve buff is, for sure

)

Minno · December 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Though I think goes without saying, if you want Emp you prob need teammates helping you get bulk gains when you need them.

All i could think of when I read this is a bunch of dudes all giving each other their 'roid shots.

Morozov · December 2015

I've spent the past few days mostly solo or duo / ganking with only 2-3 hours in the evening running in my normal "ZOS buff MagDK's QQ" mentality (Tuesday) and Drinking-problem-anonymous Victorem (Wednesday, Friday, Saturday) groups.

I averaged about a net loss AP / hour solo (over 7 hours of play), and 25K / hour duo (over 6 hours of play) with my lap cat as a constant source of distraction - and I on my sad...sad DK.

My best hour solo was close to 8 beers consumed, and my worst hour solo was 2. I had forgotten to turn on my AP tracker so my best guess would be at least 1AP cause I knew I had to have healed something at the very least.

Most of the time I forgot the 20% AP buff (probably close to 0% up time while playing, cause till someone reminded me I forgot it was still a thing).

When in larger groups, I do not usually get the AP buff, as the time spent away from the group and on load screens tends to be a net loss of AP and a net gain of moments tabbing out to watch Fallout4 mod videos - as compared to the AP gains of the group killing opponents while gone getting the buff.

Over the past 1.5 hours of play (yes, I drink beer) in groups over at least 15 people, I've averaged 24K / hour, with my best hour being 60K (including a 11K MoonDie tick at Ash mine) and worst being 1K.

During prime time (when there are multiple 24-person groups running on all factions) tends to be the best time for AP for everyone else or in a group, though it's easier to make AP off me and my wife during prime time as our FPS drops to a slideshow. Outside of prime time, I make much less AP as Im usually at work or playing Fallout4 - whereas solo or duo finding a few opposing players every few minutes is easy enough and the AP gains for THEM are consistently double that as I'm typically still setting up bars and/or checking my map.

In summary, playing more often will equal a net gain of AP as you are bound to kill something if not yourself to fall damage. At the very least, listen to crown, stick on him and collect your AP. I have found that by doing this and spamming talons, I can at least justify the AP I earn.

(sorry crown, im at work and bored and figured I'd get creative with your words)

Morozov: founder of talons-spammers anonymous. a support group for people with terrible manual dexterity

Derra · December 2015

Crown wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If someone in a 3 man grp makes the same ap as someone in a 24 man grp (both in their best imaginable scenario) there is no incentive to run in a smaller grp than cap at all because it increases the risk of dying.

That's exactly my point! There should be no incentive to run small or big - you SHOULD be able to run whatever size group you want and have the capability to make the same AP.

Yeah. If you make the same ap but die less in a big grp - that IS an incentive...

kevlarto_ESO · December 2015

Does this thread stem from Brian Wheeler's statements made on ESO live 12/4, giving small groups a boost in AP over the zerg ?

Jura23 · December 2015

AP gains per hour in different situations are completely irrelevant IMO. Only thing that matter is how much AP the killed player is worth. That should be in total always the same number no matter how many ppl killed him.

MrGrimey · December 2015

were you really solo? or following around zergs leaching? big difference

Another thing to note, solo tends to be much more risky as your chances of dying increase by a very large margin

MrGrimey · December 2015

Also, I want to add that giving small groups an AP boost is the right way to go regardless if AP gain is equal or not since they have a much harder job ahead of them and it should be rewarded, not the other way around

Also, all you need for further proof that Zergs make way more AP than solo/small groups. Is watch the end of @sypher's emp push. He was up in AP after Crown logged off, Sypher was also PvPing for for 24 hours straight. Right after Crown logged back in, he quickly caught and pulled ahead by a couple hundred thousand AP.

Unlike Crown's anecdotal evidence, this is actually on video to prove

GRxKnight · December 2015

MrGrimey wrote: »

Also, I want to add that giving small groups an AP boost is the right way to go regardless if AP gain is equal or not since they have a much harder job ahead of them and it should be rewarded, not the other way around

Also, all you need for further proof that Zergs make way more AP than solo/small groups. Is watch the end of @sypher's emp push. He was up in AP after Crown logged off, Sypher was also PvPing for for 24 hours straight. Right after Crown logged back in, he quickly caught and pulled ahead by a couple hundred thousand AP.

Unlike Crown's anecdotal evidence, this is actually on video to prove

Crown doesn't always run in a zerg though...you don't know if, when crown logged back in, he instantly joined a group...I've seen crown's numbers recently and they're insane ap/hr numbers, and he definitely is solo when he does it, can confirm

Ishammael · December 2015

Minno wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Though I think goes without saying, if you want Emp you prob need teammates helping you get bulk gains when you need them.

All i could think of when I read this is a bunch of dudes all giving each other their 'roid shots.

GET TO THE CHOPPA

Crown · December 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I'm still of the opinion that 16+ players earn more AP than what they should, partly because of the current meta and poor balance on a large scale.

The only reason they earn more is that smaller groups are often unable to kill large groups taking advantage of the turtle bomb tactic (stack tight to diffuse damage due to AoE caps and all drop ultis / tornado spam at the same time).

With AoE caps gone, this may very well change the playing field for small groups - in which case the increase in AP gains mentioned in the latest ESO live would put AP farming strongly in favour of small groups. When this happens, those of us who are comfortable / happier in small groups make a LOT more AP than anyone else, and there will be a lot of crying on the forums again from the people who will never see the top 2% of the leader board (not that it makes a difference as rewards are all useless).

I still believe that there should be a balance. If people want to run solo, or as a 4-person, 8-person, or even 24-person group, they should be capable of making the same AP per time period.

Many people don't realize that AP farming is a skill - similar to many, MANY other skills in the game. Knowing where to go for the greatest likelihood of points based on your group (or being solo), knowing what tactics to use when there are multiple opponents (and I don't mean 1vX fighting), and when/how to safely disengage to come back and kill more (for more AP without having to run back due to a death) are just the first things that come to mind. This is very different from managing a group to take map objectives.

Rust_in_Peace · December 2015

Correct me if I'm wrong but no one claimed that you make more AP grinding in a ball group than you can as a solo player. Crown is misrepresenting what was actually said; that as a group of 24 killing 1 person for 100 AP each you are generating an extra 1400 AP from no where because if you kill someone solo it's only with 1000 AP. That's the real issue here; there's an equal incentive to ball up because it's just more efficient due to lower risk but equal reward. The argument against 24 man groups getting as much AP as a solo player for kills is made with the intention of deincentivizing people who want AP to join a ball group thereby spreading players out and improving overall server performance. There are also other bonuses such as gaining Emperor not consistently being awarded to the leaders of a big ball group.

Takllin · December 2015

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but no one claimed that you make more AP grinding in a ball group than you can as a solo player. Crown is misrepresenting what was actually said; that as a group of 24 killing 1 person for 100 AP each you are generating an extra 1400 AP from no where because if you kill someone solo it's only with 1000 AP. That's the real issue here; there's an equal incentive to ball up because it's just more efficient due to lower risk but equal reward. The argument against 24 man groups getting as much AP as a solo player for kills is made with the intention of deincentivizing people who want AP to join a ball group thereby spreading players out and improving overall server performance. There are also other bonuses such as gaining Emperor not consistently being awarded to the leaders of a big ball group.

Actually I think this is exactly what people claimed. Their justification for this claim was what you explained about the AP per kill.

Crown · December 2015

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but no one claimed that you make more AP grinding in a ball group than you can as a solo player.

The reason I made this post was all the complaining that "ball groups make more AP".

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Crown is misrepresenting what was actually said; that as a group of 24 killing 1 person for 100 AP each you are generating an extra 1400 AP from no where because if you kill someone solo it's only with 1000 AP.

A group of 24 killing one person makes about 100 AP each, so a total of 2400 AP is generated. A solo person killing that same one person makes 1000 AP. There is an extra 1400 AP created there due to the group, though if you were to consider static numbers of AP with a base 1000, then each person in the group of 24 would make 42 AP.

Being as I'm making similar AP solo as I do in group, if the goal is to let everyone play how they want to play the game, then the numbers as they are seem reasonable. Everyone has a chance to make the same AP if they are of the same skill level and play the same number of hours.

If the goal is to consistently allow a small subset of the players to get a lot more AP, then flattening out AP per kill regardless of numbers works. I can pretty much guarantee that the people making AP now will be the same people making AP afterwards - we will just adjust to the new meta.

I would personally make a LOT more AP if small groups made more per kill and AoE caps were removed. Instead of PvP50 (Grand Overlord) being about 4-6 months away, I would get it a lot sooner.

We don't know what the ZOS incentive is to make changes to AP gains (other than get a whole lot of people to shut the heck up and stop whinging at them), so until we do hear something from them about reasons, we can only conjecture. I didn't listen to the whole ESO live, so if I missed something there please let me know!

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

The argument against 24 man groups getting as much AP as a solo player for kills is made with the intention of deincentivizing people who want AP to join a ball group thereby spreading players out and improving overall server performance.

What about people who like running in their 24-person? Most Friday nights some of us get together in TS, have a few (or more) drinks, and are more social than hard core PvP players for an hour or two. We run around doing stupid things and just have fun. This would remove any game-related benefit of playing socially in that manner. I grant that I would have a lot more fun in good small groups, though everyone has their own style of play and different definitions of what they consider fun. The game - and please remember that it is a GAME - should allow them all to have the same chance at success.

Also consider that new players are NOT going to learn well unless they're mixed in with experienced players, so if 8-person groups become the norm, we'll have a few AP grinding/farming small groups, and everyone else will end up grouping together like big sacks of delicious potatoes as it will still be the best defence (get as much damage out when you see the small group coming at you in the hopes of killing them before they kill everyone).

I'm not arguing against the meta changing, I'm arguing about making it balanced for everyone.

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

There are also other bonuses such as gaining Emperor not consistently being awarded to the leaders of a big ball group.

Since when is Emperor consistently awarded to leaders of big ball groups? I can only speak for Azuras, though:

On the EP side, Meth tends to have it most often, and he's rarely in a group larger than 16 (recently it seems closer to 10-12).
On the DC side, Alma Ruma is not a group leader that I'm aware of - and from my discussions with her she spends a lot of time ganking.
On the AD side, either Mojican or I have tended to take the lead on boards. Mojican makes more than half his AP solo or in groups of 3-4, and I make about 1/3 of my points solo or duo ganking with my wife.

Ezareth · December 2015

Crown wrote: »

@Rylana it's all subjective, though with the number of people complaining lately about "ball groups making more AP", I'd like to get some actual evidence of such as it really doesn't seem to be an accurate statement.

"Ball groups make more AP when there are only ball groups to fight" makes sense.
The counter "Solo and small groups make more AP when there are only individuals and small groups to fight" also makes sense.
"Great players make more AP most of the time" is a good one.
"Good players make more AP when there are only potatoes to fight" is another good one.

I don't think you make a good case for this argument as you're a player on top of your game from a skill perspective (I'll assume since I've never fought or played with you). In all of my solo PvP I've not made 40K AP/hour in months. Usually I make 10-15K AP/hour sometimes more and sometimes less. Maybe your solo play involves stealth ganking on horses or something, I don't know I hear gankers have more success at AP farming but I enjoy that style of play.

I did about 4 hours of solo PvP in Trueflame during primetime over the weekend and scored around 90K AP including a couple turnins for kills and that was higher than my usual because there was so much action. To get to 40K AP an hour solo you're killing a player by yourself every 90 seconds or so.

Your average player isn't going to have anywhere near our skill or capability to get kills while playing solo yet they will be almost as effective in group play scenarios since zergs are going to have more success at getting kills regardless of skill than a solo player can.

Now to put this in perspective on Saturday night I joined my guild group for the first time in awhile. We had 8-12 people and we made 100K AP in 2 hours on Azergas. The rate and ease at which I acquired AP was noticeably easier for me and the majority of the players I was grouped with were above average to good with a few great players mixed in.

Point is I don't really buy your argument that AP gains while Solo and in group are similar with all else being equal.