AP Gains for solo/duo vs large/ball/zerg groups - Actual numbers!

Crown · December 2015

Notably to @Sypher and @FENGRUSH with a shout out to @Wrobel and @ZOS_BrianWheeler (who might be working on something AP numbers related):

I've spent the past few days mostly solo or duo / ganking with only 2-3 hours in the evening running in our normal Rage (Tuesday) and Victorem (Wednesday) groups.

I averaged about 23K AP / hour solo (over 7 hours of play), and 27K / hour duo (over 6 hours of play) with my wife as a magicka Templar - and I on my NB.

My best hour solo was close to 40K, and my worst hour solo was 11K.

Most of the time we got the 20% AP buff (probably close to 80% up time while playing).

When in larger groups, we do not usually get the AP buff, as the time spent away from the group and on load screens tends to be a net loss of AP - as compared to the AP gains of the group killing opponents while gone getting the buff.

Over the past 30 hours of play (yes, I keep track) in groups over 16 people, I've averaged 24K / hour, with my best hour being 55K (including a 14K offensive tick @Bleakers) and worst being 13K.

During prime time (when there are multiple 24-person groups running on all factions) tends to be the best time for AP as solo or in a group, though it's easier to make AP during prime time in group. Outside of prime time, groups make much less AP as there are simply less people to kill - whereas solo or duo finding a few opposing players every few minutes is easy enough and the AP gains are consistently double that of group play.

In summary, solo/due with the AP buff tends to be very similar in AP gains to large groups without the buff. Being as large groups lose AP for the time they spend going to get the buff (maybe once load screens are less than 5 minutes long consistently it'll be different), it seems to me that AP gains are relatively balanced over a longer period of time. The challenge at the start of a campaign (when emperor is easiest to achieve) for solo or duo players, is that the population is higher for a few days and AP gains favour group play by about 10% (as we saw when @Sypher was competing for emperor in last month's Azura's Star reset).

If anyone keeps track of the AP gains with sufficient detail to comment intelligently, please add your info in here!

Rylana · December 2015

So this is all subjective, because it completely depends on availability of prey.

In group play on Lyzara, i usually average around 30k/hr running with GoS, 10k/hr when its really slow

In solo play on Kailiana, I average 40k/hr if pickins are good. But of course over time pickins arent always good and that can drop as low as 5k/hour or even less if I cant find someone to kill between keeps. (or if im always facing 5v1 odds where the chances of me getting rekt trying to pull a gank off are a crapshoot) Jumping into a zerg usually yields a few kills, but getting blobbed down/hunted out usually just leads to downtime riding back.

On my healer I average the same AP whether grouped or not, 20kish/hour. When i go damage bar its similar to my sorc.

All my other toons I dont play enough to really have data currently. But i can tell you this with absolute certainty, if there are enough people to gank, not even a GoS group can keep up with my nightblade in terms of raw AP gain. My highest hour ever was over 120k, just solo kills up by arrius. (was literally getting a kill every 20-30 seconds on respawns to BRK) Ive never had an hour like that in group play, close, but never quite that high.

Crown · December 2015

@Rylana it's all subjective, though with the number of people complaining lately about "ball groups making more AP", I'd like to get some actual evidence of such as it really doesn't seem to be an accurate statement.

"Ball groups make more AP when there are only ball groups to fight" makes sense.
The counter "Solo and small groups make more AP when there are only individuals and small groups to fight" also makes sense.
"Great players make more AP most of the time" is a good one.
"Good players make more AP when there are only potatoes to fight" is another good one.

Rylana · December 2015

Crown wrote: »

@Rylana it's all subjective, though with the number of people complaining lately about "ball groups making more AP", I'd like to get some actual evidence of such as it really doesn't seem to be an accurate statement.

"Ball groups make more AP when there are only ball groups to fight" makes sense.
The counter "Solo and small groups make more AP when there are only individuals and small groups to fight" also makes sense.
"Great players make more AP most of the time" is a good one.
"Good players make more AP when there are only potatoes to fight" is another good one.

Id agree with all four. But id word the second to more like "A good solo player will out AP anyone if enough availability is there to get those 900 AP ticks a minute apart"

Takllin · December 2015

Thanks for doing the research, hope this clears it up.

Sanct16 · December 2015

24k/h... RIP

GRxKnight · December 2015

The god of AP $&ores has spoken

Bogdan_Kobzar · December 2015

Most of the prey has gotten smarter and AVOID the PvP area's, we have gotten tired of being farmed.
You streamers can have Cyrodiil and "play-with-yourselves".
Oh, and as to the rewards of Imperial City, we'll pay in game gold for them from other players until the convenience of getting them in the Crown store.

Orsinium is AWESOME!!!!!!

Ton's of fun with the group dailies and the two public dungeons.
Looking forward to the next DLC release.

Crown · December 2015

I'll add that I am by no means an amazing solo player / duellist. I spend most of my time on strategy for group vs group play, and people like @Sypher and @FENGRUSH should be able to make a hell of a lot more AP than I can while solo - as that's what they're most practised doing.

Zheg · December 2015

Am I in the right forum section? No anti group hysteria, no alliance/guild drama, no embedded daily haxus video? What am I supposed to do with this? My body was not ready.

Even though it's anecdotal evidence, hopefully this helps quiet the people who fail to realize AP comes down to skill and the availability of fresh kills regardless of playstyle.

Sypher · December 2015

As a solo player when the population is Low-High I tend to make a lot of AP and can pass up the ap gain of most groups.

Around prime time though, when the population locks kick in and latency issues kick in. Less small groups, less solo players, and less opportunity are presented.

Basically, I can go from 40k/hour and drop down to 5k/hour as soon as prime time hits.

Keep in mind though, this is from an experienced solo player. Inexperienced players or people not running FOTM solo builds will rarely hit these numbers.

Bogdan_Kobzar · December 2015

As per request, some drama...

Ok streaming video types, show us a video of doing NOTHING else but repairing keep walls and the AP gains from that activity.

Is that drama enough?

Addendum:
Sheesh, i try to fulfill a request for added drama, and the OP responds with real statistics, AWESOME!!

Crown · December 2015

Regarding repairing walls, that gets you 30 AP each repair without buff, or 36 (assuming 20% more than 30) with buff.

There are a limited number of repairs available - but for the purpose of the math lets assume you can get continuous repairs going.

You can get 7 repairs off in 30 seconds (I just tested), so 14 per minute is (14 x 36) = 504 per minute. That works out to 30K AP per hour for continuous repairs.

Keep in mind that repair kits are expensive. You only get a 10% return on your investment if you buy them with AP, so it's really not worth it in the long run if you want to make some gold selling your AP (which is pretty much the only real way for a consistent PvP'er who doesn't want to PvE to make much gold.

Bogdan_Kobzar · December 2015

You sir, Crown, are awesome!!!! Thank You for the quick response with real numbers!!!!

GRxKnight · December 2015

Sypher wrote: »

As a solo player when the population is Low-High I tend to make a lot of AP and can pass up the ap gain of most groups.

Around prime time though, when the population locks kick in and latency issues kick in. Less small groups, less solo players, and less opportunity are presented.

Basically, I can go from 40k/hour and drop down to 5k/hour as soon as prime time hits.

Keep in mind though, this is from an experienced solo player. Inexperienced players or people not running FOTM solo builds will rarely hit these numbers.

We saw last iteration on the first day that wasn't true...the closest you got to passing me before i logged off all day was 12k and then it spiked back up to a 20k lead after one fight at aleswell mine...this was even during the low-high population hours of the early afternoon before prime time

Sure you can probably make more than the pvp guilds that aren't as established as rage or victorem (new misfits for those that don't know) just to name a few, but there aren't many of them around...most of the players in the top 20 on their faction belong to established guilds

Don't get me wrong, you personally gain an insane amount of AP as a solo player and i was impressed that you kept up as long as you did, but because groups are fighting larger amounts of players at once, we're going to make more based on fighting more numbers

Manoekin · December 2015

Sanct16 wrote: »

24k/h... RIP

yep :'(

Sypher · December 2015

GRxKnight wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

As a solo player when the population is Low-High I tend to make a lot of AP and can pass up the ap gain of most groups.

Around prime time though, when the population locks kick in and latency issues kick in. Less small groups, less solo players, and less opportunity are presented.

Basically, I can go from 40k/hour and drop down to 5k/hour as soon as prime time hits.

Keep in mind though, this is from an experienced solo player. Inexperienced players or people not running FOTM solo builds will rarely hit these numbers.

We saw last iteration on the first day that wasn't true...the closest you got to passing me before i logged off all day was 12k and then it spiked back up to a 20k lead after one fight at aleswell mine...this was even during the low-high population hours of the early afternoon before prime time

Sure you can probably make more than the pvp guilds that aren't as established as rage or victorem (new misfits for those that don't know) just to name a few, but there aren't many of them around...most of the players in the top 20 on their faction belong to established guilds

Don't get me wrong, you personally gain an insane amount of AP as a solo player and i was impressed that you kept up as long as you did, but because groups are fighting larger amounts of players at once, we're going to make more based on fighting more numbers

That's why I said most groups. I was either 2nd/3rd for the first 2 days and 1st place for most of the third day. So it's definitely possible. Just takes a lot more time/effort to accomplish as a solo player.

jrkhan · December 2015

Crown wrote: »

Regarding repairing walls, that gets you 30 AP each repair without buff, or 36 (assuming 20% more than 30) with buff.

There are a limited number of repairs available - but for the purpose of the math lets assume you can get continuous repairs going.

You can get 7 repairs off in 30 seconds (I just tested), so 14 per minute is (14 x 36) = 504 per minute. That works out to 30K AP per hour for continuous repairs.

Keep in mind that repair kits are expensive. You only get a 10% return on your investment if you buy them with AP, so it's really not worth it in the long run if you want to make some gold selling your AP (which is pretty much the only real way for a consistent PvP'er who doesn't want to PvE to make much gold.

Used to be that things which impacted your outgoing healing buffed repair values and thus ap gains.
DK's with ignious shield, resto staff and support passive... You'd have been approaching 45k an hour.

Not worth it in the long run, but very helpful if you were going for emp

Derra · December 2015

This topic is about as biased as something can get.
This is a donald trump all immigrants are rapists level of bias. Holy moly!

On a sidenote: You understand people have an issue in ap bonuses awarded per kill which are undeniably existant? It has nothing to do with ap/h you can potentially make but everything with the ap awarded for one kill and the associated rewards (maybe - but not neccessarily take into account risk taken).

Edit: I personally feel a good large grp should make less ap/h than a smallgrp or solo player (of equal quality in their respective playing field). They don´t have as much risk associated to their play. But this is ofc a personal opinion.

Manoekin · December 2015

Sypher wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

As a solo player when the population is Low-High I tend to make a lot of AP and can pass up the ap gain of most groups.

Around prime time though, when the population locks kick in and latency issues kick in. Less small groups, less solo players, and less opportunity are presented.

Basically, I can go from 40k/hour and drop down to 5k/hour as soon as prime time hits.

Keep in mind though, this is from an experienced solo player. Inexperienced players or people not running FOTM solo builds will rarely hit these numbers.

We saw last iteration on the first day that wasn't true...the closest you got to passing me before i logged off all day was 12k and then it spiked back up to a 20k lead after one fight at aleswell mine...this was even during the low-high population hours of the early afternoon before prime time

Sure you can probably make more than the pvp guilds that aren't as established as rage or victorem (new misfits for those that don't know) just to name a few, but there aren't many of them around...most of the players in the top 20 on their faction belong to established guilds

Don't get me wrong, you personally gain an insane amount of AP as a solo player and i was impressed that you kept up as long as you did, but because groups are fighting larger amounts of players at once, we're going to make more based on fighting more numbers

That's why I said most groups. I was either 2nd/3rd for the first 2 days and 1st place for most of the third day. So it's definitely possible. Just takes a lot more time/effort to accomplish as a solo player.

Next time bro, don't say it ahead of time :P So many people logged on just to block your emp. You should try again.

Jules · December 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Am I in the right forum section? No anti group hysteria, no alliance/guild drama, no embedded daily haxus video? What am I supposed to do with this? My body was not ready.

Even though it's anecdotal evidence, hopefully this helps quiet the people who fail to realize AP comes down to skill and the availability of fresh kills regardless of playstyle.

You want haxus videos? I'll give you haxus videos half off

Turtl3Lov3 · December 2015

Crown wrote: »

@Rylana it's all subjective, though with the number of people complaining lately about "ball groups making more AP", I'd like to get some actual evidence of such as it really doesn't seem to be an accurate statement.

"Ball groups make more AP when there are only ball groups to fight" makes sense.
The counter "Solo and small groups make more AP when there are only individuals and small groups to fight" also makes sense.
"Great players make more AP most of the time" is a good one.
"Good players make more AP when there are only potatoes to fight" is another good one.

@Rylana Is less than or equal to:

zyk · December 2015

I think it's fair that individuals in large groups earn AP at a rate similar to that of smaller groups and solo players in an RvR(vR) game. I say this as a player who has played solo roughly 99.9% of the time.

Personally, I would like to see AP gain more closely tied to bona fide Alliance War objectives and Campaign wins. In my opinion, too few players are truly engaged in Alliance War gameplay (winning campaigns) vs AP gain gameplay (setting up AP farms); the latter encourages the strong to frequently seek out/bait the weak instead of right-sized competition.

Zheg · December 2015

Jules wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Am I in the right forum section? No anti group hysteria, no alliance/guild drama, no embedded daily haxus video? What am I supposed to do with this? My body was not ready.

Even though it's anecdotal evidence, hopefully this helps quiet the people who fail to realize AP comes down to skill and the availability of fresh kills regardless of playstyle.

You want haxus videos? I'll give you haxus videos half off

If I'm going to watch videos of myself dying like a forsaken pug you're going to at least need to throw in frequent flier miles. I need to do someplace warm for the winter, far far away from those emp cold stones x.x

FENGRUSH · December 2015

Still dont think large groups should be getting multipliers for AP. It should encourage people that want to earn AP to work more efficiently.

frozywozy · December 2015

It's interesting that no one here talk about the fact that after X players in group, the number of AP gained doesn't diminish anymore which is a big problem.

AP should be provided to people contributing, not people inside the tick area playing with one hand.

Crown · December 2015

Derra wrote: »

You understand people have an issue in ap bonuses awarded per kill which are undeniably existant? It has nothing to do with ap/h you can potentially make but everything with the ap awarded for one kill and the associated rewards (maybe - but not neccessarily take into account risk taken).

@Derra it SHOULD all come down to AP / hour. Long term, that's what is most important for emperor, campaign rewards, and alliance rank. A good solo player may kill 3 opponents for a total of 3K AP in the same time that a group of 24 kills an opposing 24 for a total of 3K AP. If you put in the same amount of time at the same level of skill, you should make the same AP per hour. That is what balances things out for players regardless of group size, and right now based on the math that I've seen, it is relatively balanced with the exception of prime time due to lag / latency.

If there was no lag / latency spike during prime time with a lot of players, then a good solo player (shout out to @Sypher ) would probably make even more AP than a group of 24 just because it's so much easier to instagib 2-3 people on the back line of a raid or moving from one place to another.

Pchela · December 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

It's interesting that no one here talk about the fact that after X players in group, the number of AP gained doesn't diminish anymore which is a big problem.

AP should be provided to people contributing, not people inside the tick area playing with one hand.

Crown · December 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

It's interesting that no one here talk about the fact that after X players in group, the number of AP gained doesn't diminish anymore which is a big problem. AP should be provided to people contributing, not people inside the tick area playing with one hand.

@frozywozy There was a point I made in another thread on this topic that was very long and I'm too lazy to look it up. The short version is that it's not realistic / feasible to determine how many people contributed in what way. The tank spec person who absorbs hits, the cc/fear person who doesn't do damage but otherwise takes people out of the fight, the person running a retreating build to get rid of snares for the group, the person purging, the healer who didn't need to heal anyone more than a tiny amount as the group killed opponents so fast that they didn't do any damage back, the scout watching for a stealth group moving to bomb, all of those bring value to the group - and possibly only a handful will do enough damage to opponents to count towards the majority AP results.

Saying, "it's not fair to everyone" is one thing, though a proposal on how to balance it out to make it fair to the roles / responsibilities I listed above could help the ZOS people (shout out to @ZOS_GinaBruno - I just picked you as I have no idea who the right person should be to pay attention to this point) to figure things out long term.

FENGRUSH · December 2015

I dont agree it should be based on someones personal test experience. If you want to pursue emperor and youre not making enough AP cruising in a 24 person group while cleaning out everything in front of you, then do it with 16, and you will be on the path to emp.

Crown · December 2015

@FENGRUSH On campaign reset day back in the good old days of Alacrity we would cap our groups at 16 - so as to get the most AP. Beyond that the AP gains were too diluted to keep up with the small group players. I don't believe that anything has changed about AP gains in the past year other than the increased latency/lag when the large groups are out and about.