Stamina vs Magicka vs Hybrid builds...

Miszou · December 2015

Ok, so let's assume I'm fairly new to the game, and I'm building my character using the skills I like, and which work for me - which just happen to require a balanced mix of stamina and magicka.

Everything I read on the forums says I'm doing it wrong, and that I should either be a "Stamina DK", or a "Magicka DK". (Let's not go into the fact that I'm also Argonian, so apparently I failed hard there too...)

What's going on here? Is this just min/maxer talk, or am I going to have to use a bunch of skills I don't like in order to be "functional"? I don't give a single fig about PvP (or even DPS). I'm not having any problems soloing the open-world campaign in my well-below-average crafted gear, and I would like to be able to to tank some group dungeons when I grow up.

Am I doing it wrong?

Reorx_Holybeard · December 2015

Miszou wrote: »

...

Am I doing it wrong?

I'd say if you're having fun and success doing what you're doing then you're doing just fine!

However, note that the open world content is really easy compared to other parts of the game. If you start trying normal/Vet Dungeons, PVP, or Trials you're probably going to quickly find a hybrid build not working as well as a dedicated magic/stamina one.

I would suggest trying different builds when you have the time/money/equipment for it and see how they compares and which one you have more fun and success with.

J2JMC · December 2015

For solo play you're fine. For group play, unless you're running with a dedicated group, you have to change your playstyle
It's selfish to not do so as dungeons are a group effort and require people to work together.

One simple example I can use is the application of the major breach debuff. In my normal group I never have to worry about it and can focus on purely dps. When I run with pugs(which is a terrible idea and I don't know why I do this) I switch things around on my bar for the ability to apply the major breach debuff. This is because not all tanks run pierce armor and while applying the debuff myself is annoying, not having it at all is even worse.

If you want to play as you want, you need to only play solo or find a group of friends that will work with you. Don't expect pugs to be accepting of your hybrid build until deltia says it's ok.

Darlgon · December 2015

Miszou wrote: »

Ok, so let's assume I'm fairly new to the game, and I'm building my character using the skills I like, and which work for me - which just happen to require a balanced mix of stamina and magicka.

Everything I read on the forums says I'm doing it wrong, and that I should either be a "Stamina DK", or a "Magicka DK". (Let's not go into the fact that I'm also Argonian, so apparently I failed hard there too...)

What's going on here? Is this just min/maxer talk, or am I going to have to use a bunch of skills I don't like in order to be "functional"? I don't give a single fig about PvP (or even DPS). I'm not having any problems soloing the open-world campaign in my well-below-average crafted gear, and I would like to be able to to tank some group dungeons when I grow up.

Am I doing it wrong?

NO.. not as long as you are solo.

Just to define things..
Magicka DK, usually.. 0 Stam 0 Health, 62 Magicka
Stamina DK, usually.. 62 Stam, 0 Health, 0 Magicka
Tank DK, RARE, 0 Stam, 62 Health, 0 Magicka

Frankly, not sure I have EVER seen a "tank" DK. If they exist, someone will correct me.

In this game, the power of your "hit" is based on the size of your pool So throwing out numbers, a magicka DK with a Magicka pool of 400 with put out a 50 HP Healing Springs and a 150 Force Pulse. A magicka DK with 4000 pool will push out 500 HP Healing Springs and 1500 Force Pulse.

So someone focused on Stam or Magicka is supposed hit much harder than a guy with same level and points muddied out. HOWEVER, the DK with more HP will actually have larger damage shields, as those are based on HP, not your magicka pool.

I actually do play a Hybrid, Argonian DK..(23/18/23) which, arguably is the worse race, playing the worse class in the game right now, with worse stats than most people would want to play with.. but it is fun to change to Off Healer, Off Tank, Off DPS. The problem is.. people who want a speed run thru a dungeon will want PURE DPS. You wont be able to pump out the numbers like a real DPS would, and they WILL notice. Pick-Up-Groups will kick you. Guild groups may even kick you after a try or two. Solo content? Its a breeze. I have not tried to my hand at the Veteran MA, but.. being able to swap out LOOKS ideal in there.

bertenburnyb16_ESO · December 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

Frankly, not sure I have EVER seen a "tank" DK. If they exist, someone will correct me.

wut? ofc theres tank DK's, its the class mostly oriented to tanking, what u on about? but putting all your eggs in the health basket is not really needed

@OP thing is, a hybrid's skills will deal less damage then a char focussed on either stam or mag, since the damage u do with a skill is calculated by the spelldamage/weapondamage x max mag/stam (depending if its a mag or stam skill)
so a hybrid build has his stats spread out over the board, while a focussed char will have much higher specific damage & resource pool meaning his skills hit alot harder

Miszou · December 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

I actually do play a Hybrid, Argonian DK..(23/18/23) which, arguably is the worse race, playing the worse class in the game right now, with worse stats than most people would want to play with..

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've done too. It's interesting for sure.

I'm glad to see it can work. It may not be optimal, but it's certainly fun.

I have no real interest in running the super-hard content. There's always too much pressure from perfectionists to have the "right" build, when I'm perfectly happy with "my" build.

NBrookus · December 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

Just to define things..
Magicka DK, usually.. 0 Stam 0 Health, 62 Magicka
Stamina DK, usually.. 62 Stam, 0 Health, 0 Magicka
Tank DK, RARE, 0 Stam, 62 Health, 0 Magicka

Frankly, not sure I have EVER seen a "tank" DK. If they exist, someone will correct me.

They are out there; I know at least two. I run DK tank with all attribute points in stam but with health glyphs: the end result is about the same as all points in health with stam glyphs, and I have more health than stam this way. (I don't have tri-stat glyphs; that might change things.)

Miszou · December 2015

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

@OP thing is, a hybrid's skills will deal less damage then a char focussed on either stam or mag, since the damage u do with a skill is calculated by the spelldamage/weapondamage x max mag/stam (depending if its a mag or stam skill)
so a hybrid build has his stats spread out over the board, while a focussed char will have much higher specific damage & resource pool meaning his skills hit alot harder

ok, that's interesting, and certainly explains a lot.

I had no idea it worked that way.

stojekarcub18_ESO · December 2015

My main is a hybrid DK with DW & Bow 5 Heavy 2 Medium armor. He does just fine as tank or dps on dungeon runs. I've tweaked little things here and there since launch, but have always kept a pretty even distribution between M/H/S. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't keep up unless you min/max in ESO. That's one of the best parts about this game...You can build your character how you want based on your playstyle and what you enjoy and still find great success...instead of following the cookie-cutter/FOTM agenda that so many MMOs nowadays demand.

Artjuh90 · December 2015

Miszou wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

I actually do play a Hybrid, Argonian DK..(23/18/23) which, arguably is the worse race, playing the worse class in the game right now, with worse stats than most people would want to play with..

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've done too. It's interesting for sure.

I'm glad to see it can work. It may not be optimal, but it's certainly fun.

I have no real interest in running the super-hard content. There's always too much pressure from perfectionists to have the "right" build, when I'm perfectly happy with "my" build.

then play how you like, in time you might go PvP and do more endgame content like trails (which aren't really end game but thats another discussion) and you will feel like it's beter for now play how you like. you bought this game for YOUR enjoyment not for some other person's enjoyment

Shadesofkin · December 2015

I have a Stam DK Argonian, at this point, with the gear and cp and experience I have it's not an issue to play my character the way I want when I'm soloing and just spend a little gold to change it around when I'm going to run group content (though he's only VR1 so that will be sometime).

Dont worry too much unless you're building for group content, then talk to your group.

Tamanous · December 2015

As others have stated, the main differences in character build approach is through application. It is perfectly fine to experiment and try new things for solo play. Group play for difficult content requires more dedicated builds which usually means going full Magicka or Stamina but there is room to enhance your off stat as well through tri-glyphs as one still needs to fuel their off stat abilities taken for utility (as you won't be taking powers that scale off that stat so non-scaling utility powers are fine).

Basically just try and gear out a few builds for different situations and do not feel rushed in doing so. The vast majority of players in this game are casual and you do not hear them on these forums which are dominated by a very small percentage of players on subjects that may never even impact you.

RSram · December 2015

Keep in mind that in group content, including group PVP, your will have one or more dedicated healers to make up for that lack of health and health recovery in a max stamina or magicka build.

Miszou · December 2015

RSram wrote: »

Keep in mind that in group content, including group PVP, your will have one or more dedicated healers to make up for that lack of health and health recovery in a max stamina or magicka build.

Sure... but why not make it easier on the healer by having a huge health pool (with sufficient stamina for blocking)?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought the idea of a tank was to be able to hold aggro, so as long as you can keep the things attacking you, why does it matter how much damage my spells/attacks can do?

Dubhliam · December 2015

Miszou wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

Keep in mind that in group content, including group PVP, your will have one or more dedicated healers to make up for that lack of health and health recovery in a max stamina or magicka build.

Sure... but why not make it easier on the healer by having a huge health pool (with sufficient stamina for blocking)?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought the idea of a tank was to be able to hold aggro, so as long as you can keep the things attacking you, why does it matter how much damage my spells/attacks can do?

If you already know you will be a dedicated DK tank, then you won't have any problems.

I have been running a DK tank for some time, and am loving it. Until recently, I had my attributes spread all over. After I got some gold in my bag, I crafted myself a heavy Armor Master set and enchanted all my gear with Prismatic defense.
With the prismatic defense alone I got near 25k HP, and with some Healty and/or Robust Willpower set I managed to redirect ALL of my attributes to magicka. Now I can freely change between tank and DD without ruining my tanking.

What I want to say is: yes, you can be a hybrid build, BUT you can play only a specific role: tank.
And your class is the best hybrid tank there can be.

I must however say that my build is actually a magicka tank build, with almost all magicka skills, heavy magicka regen and only has a lot of stamina for more blocking/dodge capacity. Double sword and board.

willymchilybily · December 2015

you can use any skills you like, but distribution of attributes and gear material and set piece bonuses should foucs on one resource pool.

hypothetically as a stamina DK i may want to use a bow or use two hander and damage skills are stamina based, but i may also want to be able to use talons to trap enemies, or stone fist to knock enemies down chains to pull them in.

As long as the utility skills you use to compliment your set up aren't there to do damage but more to control the fight or buff you then it will be a perfectly strong hybrid. As soon as you try to do damage from both magicka and stamina pools. or use your lower resource pool so heavily you need more of it, then you will weaken your self.

This is only really a potential problem for hard content like maelstrom arena, veteran pledges, or PvP outside of group play. Otherwise don't be discouraged from doing what you enjoy.

Xvorg · December 2015

I'm working on a kind of hybrid DK, Full Magicka, S/B and DW VR11 Dunmer for PVE

S/B
FoO, Structured Entropy, Molten Whip, Fiery Grip, Emp Chain U Shooting Star.

Entropy, Chain, PA, block-whip-bash, block-whip-bash. Currently I'm bashing for 1.5 K average in PVE (3.5K is the top I've got)

DW (AoE)
FoO, Flame Talons, Whirlwind blades, Deep Breath, Engulfing flames U SoM

In groups of 3 or more enemies: Engulfing flames, talons, Deep Breath, WWB. Ideally using Deep Breath to keep health over 50% and WWB as dmg dealer (3k aprox) and stamina recover, Talons for the extra DW dmg and flames for the extra dmg with flame effects.

5 heavy, 2 light

Currently I'm using Willows path (5 pieces) Lord's Mail (4 pieces on S/B), 2 Torugs (DW axes), 2 Light of Cyrodil rings, Ravager pendant. I'm planning to change Willows path for Kagrenac's Hope and split Lord's mail into 2 torugs, 1 Kena and 1more Ravager, and maybe dropping Standard for a cheaper Ulti (Leap, Magma Armor, Dawnbreaker), although the recovery for Battle Roar saves lifes

Till now, it's a very fun build with moderate to high survaibility.

Any suggestions?

shugg · December 2015

I have 2 v16 both tanks, one dk full stam and one nb 50/50 magic stam - i have cleared all vet dungeons as a hybrid tank on my nb it works very well however the min max is determined by your role - love having both pools in pvp but 1v1 is hard going against some one who knows how to play - im on ps4 do never worried about numbers

Nestor · December 2015

Miszou wrote: »

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've done too. It's interesting for sure.

I'm glad to see it can work. It may not be optimal, but it's certainly fun.

I have no real interest in running the super-hard content. There's always too much pressure from perfectionists to have the "right" build, when I'm perfectly happy with "my" build.

You can play the way you want and have fun. However, set yourself up for future success. While leveling, wear a mix of all 3 armors so that they all level up. Try different weapon classes so they level up. Your goals are to get armors to 50 or close to it, and weapon classes to 40 or so. This is easier than it sounds as just wearing the mix of armors will do this, and trying different weapons as you go along will take care of that. Of course you don't have to do every weapon, just the ones you think you might like. The Training Trait really helps with this process.

This way, once you have exhausted the content and want more of a challenge, all you have to do is respec and regear and your ready to go with no grinding. The reason you want to do this during the 1 to 50 leveling is that content is quite easy and gear really does not matter for that part. It's when you get to the VR ranks that things get a little tougher and you will want to use crafted sets, take advantage of 5 piece bonuses things like that.

Oh, and most important, while leveling try to have one skill from each of the 3 skill lines in your class on the bar. You definitely want your Class Skill line leveled to 50. Lots of nice passives and bonuses for having and or using class skills. Of course, once you get a Class line up to 50 you can take it off your bar if your not using it for that particular content.

Also, remember you can use one set of skills for the combat and quests and another set of skills when turning in the quests. Some people use Weapon swap for this, one bar for doing what they need, then swap to the other one with the skills they want to level when turning in the quest.

NBrookus · December 2015

Dubhliam wrote: »

After I got some gold in my bag, I crafted myself a heavy Armor Master set and enchanted all my gear with Prismatic defense.
With the prismatic defense alone I got near 25k HP, and with some Healty and/or Robust Willpower set I managed to redirect ALL of my attributes to magicka. Now I can freely change between tank and DD without ruining my tanking.

@dubhliam How do you feel about the Armor Master set without primatic glyphs? I'm thinking of swapping my Hist Bark for Armor Master, but keeping my Footman.

Sidewinder32 · December 2015

stojekarcub18_ESO wrote: »

My main is a hybrid DK with DW & Bow 5 Heavy 2 Medium armor. He does just fine as tank or dps on dungeon runs. I've tweaked little things here and there since launch, but have always kept a pretty even distribution between M/H/S. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't keep up unless you min/max in ESO. That's one of the best parts about this game...You can build your character how you want based on your playstyle and what you enjoy and still find great success...instead of following the cookie-cutter/FOTM agenda that so many MMOs nowadays demand.

although this may work "good enough" and by all means if you are having fun thats awesome , however what kind of dps does that setup get? because again like others have said dungeons are a group effort and if you are getting sub 10k dps then you aren't doing your job and making dungeons (at the very least) take longer. JMHO but i feel like there's a difference in using a cookie cutter vs making intelligent decisions when building a class.

the only reason i responded to this was the part about keeping up. you will do half the damage with 2 sources meaning you will do 50% less dps than other dedicated dps. this by definition is not keeping up. On the other hand You can still get the content done with some skill and good groups even with bad builds

If you consider taking twice as long to kill something and making your tank and healer work twice as hard "keeping up" by all means man have at it. (this is why i do not pug)