Heavy Armor

drumbendrum_ESO · November 2015

How does everyone feel now with heavy armor?

I know in the eso podcast that there was mention that it felt as of late that it does not really fit very well with the current meta.
The armor while being defensive lacks sustain with the high DPS/Sustain available out there currently.

Do you guys feel that way?

I for one would like to see something changed with this as I feel that mabye tweaking the mechanics of constitution might have some rewarding effects with heavy armor users. Play styles in this game should be diverse and counterable and I think it would be great to boost this game design to allow more options than just light - medium exploding all over everyones face.

What do you guys think should heavy armor be looked at? Should it be a presence in the battle field and also is it good in its current state for PvE and PvP?

I started playing this game as a DK and instantly went with Heavy Armor. To me it just feels like that class was made for that set up. I have branched out and worked with light and medium builds as well. I just feel though that I would love to go back and throw that heavy gear on again.

Does anyone out there now use heavy armor in PvP or PvE with good build options?

Just curious what everyones thoughts are on the matter~

AFrostWolf · November 2015

I play my DK as a tank in PvE and haven't taken him to PvP in a long time. I simply don't have any damage as a tank. I can take a pounding and live through it. Having a healer in PvE helps keep me alive and having DPS worry about damage makes the system work.
PvP in another story. I walk into PvP as a tank, and I die. I can't take the pounding. I have no damage to finish them off. And my survivability as a DK in heavy armor is a joke.

Petros · November 2015

Change Constitution Passive to PRE 1.6 where it was based off max health. Alot of Heavy Armor should be based off Max Health

Jura23 · November 2015

5+ heavy armor should have stamina regen while blocking. That would make it relevant again.

Bashev · November 2015

Heavy armor needs love in PvP.

MrBeatDown · November 2015

You guys might be using heavy armor wrong if your getting ez wrecked in PvP. I only wear 2 pieces heavy (Helm, Chest) and it works out pretty good with 5 medium. The advantage to heavy is pretty good if you start to look at HEALTH RECOVERY. Get The Steed Mundus stone and its pretty nice. Im about to start putting Cp Points into health recovery. As a Imperial DK i like it. I got Green Dragon Blood to boost health recovery and stamina recovery BOTH by 20% for 23 seconds on top of the heal it gives. Its pretty Damn nice. Unbuffed with 0 points in health recovery cp tree i still got like 673 health recover. After green dragon blood, closer to 770ish health recovery, and i will put points in it to try to get to around 850ish. I like it.

Heavy armor is pretty good if you know how to use it. Constitution is fine. You also get Increased Healing per piece of Heavy armor equipped......

What else do you need from it? It gives plenty of defense and spell resist......

Want DPS in heavy? Try out Black Rose. That is a very nice PVP Heavy armor set and i got 5 pieces Divine because its one of the best pieces out for tanks. Or craft a heavy set of Hundings Rage or Night Mother or BOTH....

hrothbern · November 2015

Petros wrote: »

Change Constitution Passive to PRE 1.6 where it was based off max health. Alot of Heavy Armor should be based off Max Health

agree
It will not be enough, but it will help

Jura23 wrote: »

5+ heavy armor should have stamina regen while blocking. That would make it relevant again.

If Constitution is as it was pre 1.6, and based on Health, the normal HA tank will get back more Stamina (and Magicka).
If I remember correctly the old Constitution gave Stam & Mag back at 0.15% of Max Health per HA piece every 2 seconds.
At Vet 16, for a 28k Health tank with 5 HA pieces, that would be 210 Stam & Mag per 2 seconds. Now it is 247 per 4 seconds.
This pre 1.6 Constitution would also make the "Black Rose" set more relevant.

The other thing nerfed away in the past was the reduction on Break Free costs. Is also Stamina !

Forestd16b14_ESO · November 2015

In PvE HA is still usable all though be barely. As for PvP it make you a walking trash can literally from having no sustainable resource passive and all that resistance being cut down by players with 50%+ res penetration to it's skill being useless and one of it's best passives being thrown into said worthless skill.

HA in PvP is just a bad joke and ZOS knows this and has done nothing about it for not 1 but 2 updates all along with dragon knights and templars.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/225175/heavy-armor-needs-buffed-already#latest <-- Just my thoughts on how HA can be changed to be alot better cause if HA is supposed to be the best at defense then it should be the best at defense no matter what. Not out classed by rolling around or exploiting a broken mechanic (shield stacking).

hrothbern · November 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

In PvE HA is still usable all though be barely. As for PvP it make you a walking trash can literally from having no sustainable resource passive and all that resistance being cut down by players with 50%+ res penetration to it's skill being useless and one of it's best passives being thrown into said worthless skill.

HA in PvP is just a bad joke and ZOS knows this and has done nothing about it for not 1 but 2 updates all along with dragon knights and templars.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/225175/heavy-armor-needs-buffed-already#latest <-- Just my thoughts on how HA can be changed to be alot better cause if HA is supposed to be the best at defense then it should be the best at defense no matter what. Not out classed by rolling around or exploiting a broken mechanic (shield stacking).

"and all that resistance being cut down by players with 50%+ res penetration to it's skill being useless"

That is one of the big disconnects between PVP and PVE

Decrease penetration in PVP could be a solution, but not a sympathic one.

I favor more to introduce/increase penetration by NPC's AND increase Armor Resistance of HA

GreenSoup2HoT · November 2015

You guys might be using heavy armor wrong if your getting ez wrecked in PvP. I only wear 2 pieces heavy (Helm, Chest) and it works out pretty good with 5 medium.

@MrBeatDown Using 2 piece's of heavy does not constitute as being a heavy Armour user. You are a medium Armour user with a little bit extra Armour lol. Technically you are using heavy Armour but not a majority 5+.

This thread is trying to discuss heavy Armour user's with 5+ or more.

So pretty much anything you have said is invalid. You still have the sustain of a medium user with the damage. Take those away and wear 5+ heavy and come back to the thread.
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Personally it's not that Heavy Armour is bad, it's the stamina while blocking was a change for pve that ruin's any kind of tank play in pvp.

If all damage shield's and heal's were scaled by health, tank's would have a much easier time staying alive. As it stand's, glass cannon build's can just out sustain the high health pool's tank's have and run them out of everything so fast it's laughable. The tank just sit's there and take's it for a little bit befor his garbage heals/ damage and sustain get the best of him.

So yeah i think heavy Armour is in a terrible place right now for pvp. Pretty much none existence because Zos keep's on rolling in blanket nerf's and nerf's that completely ruled out an entire role for pvp (Tank).

To fix it, you gotta scale damage shields and healing to max health (and i mean all of them, hardened ward, vigor, the work's). These glass cannon sorc's and nightblade's are dealing to much damage with crazy healing and sustain. No tank can compete with that unless they them self's build into as much damage/ recovery like a hybrid. You cannot build into your strength's which is high hp and Armour.

Funny how the entire game is dps in pvp. Does Zos not see this? Only weapon damage enchants and Armour penetration traits being taken. Weapon damage was reduced in cryodil but that was not the problem. It was weapon damage stackers. Tanks just got the short end of there dumb decision's.

The game is ***. I have stopped playing pretty much. Zos does not no what to do with balance. They change *** without realizing the consequences.

Forestd16b14_ESO · November 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

In PvE HA is still usable all though be barely. As for PvP it make you a walking trash can literally from having no sustainable resource passive and all that resistance being cut down by players with 50%+ res penetration to it's skill being useless and one of it's best passives being thrown into said worthless skill.

HA in PvP is just a bad joke and ZOS knows this and has done nothing about it for not 1 but 2 updates all along with dragon knights and templars.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/225175/heavy-armor-needs-buffed-already#latest <-- Just my thoughts on how HA can be changed to be alot better cause if HA is supposed to be the best at defense then it should be the best at defense no matter what. Not out classed by rolling around or exploiting a broken mechanic (shield stacking).

"and all that resistance being cut down by players with 50%+ res penetration to it's skill being useless"

That is one of the big disconnects between PVP and PVE

Decrease penetration in PVP could be a solution, but not a sympathic one.

I favor more to introduce/increase penetration by NPC's AND increase Armor Resistance of HA

Would add more to PvE true true cause it is kinda weird how NPCs don't have crits or penetration effects...... NPCs don't have crits right??

Draxys · November 2015

Give heavy more physical damage mitigation (and I mean a flat mitigation, not resistance) and some stam regen while blocking and it will be in a decent place again. Stam regen while in 5+ heavy because tanking has been screwed. Physical damage mitigation because it's still just too easy to deal ridiculous amounts of physical damage, even with the damage debuff in pvp.

hrothbern · November 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

In PvE HA is still usable all though be barely. As for PvP it make you a walking trash can literally from having no sustainable resource passive and all that resistance being cut down by players with 50%+ res penetration to it's skill being useless and one of it's best passives being thrown into said worthless skill.

HA in PvP is just a bad joke and ZOS knows this and has done nothing about it for not 1 but 2 updates all along with dragon knights and templars.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/225175/heavy-armor-needs-buffed-already#latest <-- Just my thoughts on how HA can be changed to be alot better cause if HA is supposed to be the best at defense then it should be the best at defense no matter what. Not out classed by rolling around or exploiting a broken mechanic (shield stacking).

"and all that resistance being cut down by players with 50%+ res penetration to it's skill being useless"

That is one of the big disconnects between PVP and PVE

Decrease penetration in PVP could be a solution, but not a sympathic one.

I favor more to introduce/increase penetration by NPC's AND increase Armor Resistance of HA

Would add more to PvE true true cause it is kinda weird how NPCs don't have crits or penetration effects...... NPCs don't have crits right??

I remember that some very old posts mention that some bosses can crit.... ???

BTW
If HA woud get more Armor Resistance. The current hard cap of 50% max Mitigation from Armor Resistance will prevent OP effects.
Say Armor Resistance in full HA, including buffs from armor sets and CP's, would become 43k. You get still 50% Damage Mitigation although you are over the 33k needed for that 50%. But you can now handle 10k reduction from Penetration without losing Mitigation. So you only go below 50% against a build that has Penetration stacked.

drumbendrum_ESO · November 2015

It does strike me odd that these glass cannon builds seem to be tankier than just a normal tank build.

Mabye tanky isnt the right word but does seem to have more survivability. Current game dynamics would be nice if that you sacrificed power for tankiness. It would allow you to dual out with high DPS builds.

I remember when we use to get weapon damage from wearing heavy armor back in the day as well. I didnt like that combination and I like the change. However some extra boost to the resistance on both spell and physical would be nice.

What if blocking somehow boosted your constitution tick? My biggest fear with a stamina regen boost while blocking is everyone just running around not fighting and standing there with there shield up...lol.

Mabye mitigation with SB + Heavy armor should be increased slightly. High DPS will melt any stamina bar out there for a tank build.

willymchilybily · November 2015

When i compare armor for pvp i notice the following:

I could go in all heavy armor and hypothetically I get 20k physical and spell resistance. With the passives 3% per piece 24,200. That's 37% mitigation a 20k crit hits for 10k with battle spirit, hits for 6,300

in medium armor i get 3/4 of this value 15k physical and spell resistance. i can boost that with robust traits to 17.4k
that 26.6% mitigation. the same 20k crit 10k with battle spirit hits for 7,400.

If I go full turtle. I have no damage output, but i get 48.2% mitigation and that same spell would hit 5180 damage. I'm taking 70% of the damage someone in leather/robust takes

I take 17% less damage in heavy than medium with robust, and i lose reduced stamina cost, stamina regen, 12% weapon damage, reduced dodgeroll cost, better stealth radius and sneak cost. instead i recieve a bit more healing, have a bit more health and get more health regen. The reduced block cost is fine but unless i go with more reduced cost on my jewlery enchants its not really doing all that much for me, because it will drain my stamina in no time.

7/7 HA is just not viable way to play in PvP outside of group play heavily supported. And the way the AP gains work its not rewarding either.

The only way to make it viable is a re-work of a few of the passives, and the AP gains system. The objective to wearing heavy armour (imo) should be becoming notably more survivable at the cost of damage. And i dont feel the balance between damage lost and survivability gained is correct yet

MrBeatDown · November 2015

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

You guys might be using heavy armor wrong if your getting ez wrecked in PvP. I only wear 2 pieces heavy (Helm, Chest) and it works out pretty good with 5 medium.

@MrBeatDown Using 2 piece's of heavy does not constitute as being a heavy Armour user. You are a medium Armour user with a little bit extra Armour lol. Technically you are using heavy Armour but not a majority 5+.

This thread is trying to discuss heavy Armour user's with 5+ or more.

So pretty much anything you have said is invalid. You still have the sustain of a medium user with the damage. Take those away and wear 5+ heavy and come back to the thread.

ROFL. One of my good Friends uses 5 pieces of Black Rose on his Nord Dragon knight and face smashes groups of people solo because he has high health regeneration and knows how to use heavy. Hes also using a 2 hand weapon and on switch a sword and board. I wont sit here and listen to such rubbish when i see it with my own 2 eyes in pvp all the time. You guys need to learn how to properly distribute your CP points and stop reading the Internet guides on how to build a character. CP point distribution will make or break you in all classes/armor/races. Heavy armor is already OP and if their was no such thing as a cp cap, then heavy would have to get nerfed. Its a L2P issue for some people. When i hit the 501 cp cap i plan on re Dawning my 5 piece Divine Black Rose just to smash face with it..... I already got it all in V16, Divines, and upgraded to legendary.

Please stop with the QQ Threads on Heavy armor. What you probably need is class skill buffs.

drumbendrum_ESO · November 2015

MrBeatDown wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

You guys might be using heavy armor wrong if your getting ez wrecked in PvP. I only wear 2 pieces heavy (Helm, Chest) and it works out pretty good with 5 medium.

@MrBeatDown Using 2 piece's of heavy does not constitute as being a heavy Armour user. You are a medium Armour user with a little bit extra Armour lol. Technically you are using heavy Armour but not a majority 5+.

This thread is trying to discuss heavy Armour user's with 5+ or more.

So pretty much anything you have said is invalid. You still have the sustain of a medium user with the damage. Take those away and wear 5+ heavy and come back to the thread.

ROFL. One of my good Friends uses 5 pieces of Black Rose on his Nord Dragon knight and face smashes groups of people solo because he has high health regeneration and knows how to use heavy. Hes also using a 2 hand weapon and on switch a sword and board. I wont sit here and listen to such rubbish when i see it with my own 2 eyes in pvp all the time. You guys need to learn how to properly distribute your CP points and stop reading the Internet guides on how to build a character. CP point distribution will make or break you in all classes/armor/races. Heavy armor is already OP and if their was no such thing as a cp cap, then heavy would have to get nerfed. Its a L2P issue for some people. When i hit the 501 cp cap i plan on re Dawning my 5 piece Divine Black Rose just to smash face with it..... I already got it all in V16, Divines, and upgraded to legendary.

Please stop with the QQ Threads on Heavy armor. What you probably need is class skill buffs.

Hmmmm I dont feel anyone is QQing here. We are simply talking about the current state of heavy armor. Sharing ideas and just trying to get an idea of whats going on.

So you want everyone to simply put HP regen in CP's and wear Black Rose. Its noted and I will try it out. If the results are good I will let everyone know. I have not used it yet so I cannot really give you any feedback.

That being said, there has to be more to the builds and playstyle than just slapping on Black Rose and having high HP regen.

If there is more information regarding this, I would love to hear it.

Orchish · November 2015

MrBeatDown wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

You guys might be using heavy armor wrong if your getting ez wrecked in PvP. I only wear 2 pieces heavy (Helm, Chest) and it works out pretty good with 5 medium.

@MrBeatDown Using 2 piece's of heavy does not constitute as being a heavy Armour user. You are a medium Armour user with a little bit extra Armour lol. Technically you are using heavy Armour but not a majority 5+.

This thread is trying to discuss heavy Armour user's with 5+ or more.

So pretty much anything you have said is invalid. You still have the sustain of a medium user with the damage. Take those away and wear 5+ heavy and come back to the thread.

ROFL. One of my good Friends uses 5 pieces of Black Rose on his Nord Dragon knight and face smashes groups of people solo because he has high health regeneration and knows how to use heavy. Hes also using a 2 hand weapon and on switch a sword and board. I wont sit here and listen to such rubbish when i see it with my own 2 eyes in pvp all the time. You guys need to learn how to properly distribute your CP points and stop reading the Internet guides on how to build a character. CP point distribution will make or break you in all classes/armor/races. Heavy armor is already OP and if their was no such thing as a cp cap, then heavy would have to get nerfed. Its a L2P issue for some people. When i hit the 501 cp cap i plan on re Dawning my 5 piece Divine Black Rose just to smash face with it..... I already got it all in V16, Divines, and upgraded to legendary.

Please stop with the QQ Threads on Heavy armor. What you probably need is class skill buffs.

Heavy armour is OP? cannot take you seriously.

Spacemonkey · November 2015

@MrBeatDown The argument that HA is OP because you can use 25,000 NON HEAVY ARMOR STUFF to make you OP is laughable. At that point whether your armor is light, heavy or medium, is moot. The armor SET bonuses matter.

What we are saying here is not that there are no good Heavy Armor sets that are viable for end game PVP. We are saying that Heavy Armor as a general rule, sucks compared to the other two. The Armor passives (skills) and actual stats are inefficient compared to Light and Medium.

'Knowing how to play' should not require your build only be viable at V16 with 400+ CP points and a single specific armor set.

Anyone slapping on HA should be able to see themselves survive longer - and have a harder(longer) time killing people etc... not all of a sudden become a burst dps with needs to dodge all the time to allow his regen to keep him alive.

This topic is about whether HA should act more traditionally.

Waffennacht · November 2015

Heavy armor is far from OP.

Every "advantage" of heavy armor can be obtained without it. Orginally the idea was the ONLY way to hit the 33k resist was by using 5+ heavy and maxing all specific resist stats, that idea went right out the window.

Second heavy armor's passives are all health based or blocking based (yes there is armor rating but again unnecessary to hit the cap so a moot point) and in PvP health is the worse stat to focus on (as the other stats provide far more utility and do a better job of health gain)

If the stats actually provided decent mitigation (50% damage reduction is actually weak when comparing it to damage)

example: wrecking blow after 50% pvp reduction still lands for 10k, lets reduce that to 5k from mitigation, that's at a minimum is 17% health loss. That's an insane for a single instant move, heavy armor just doesn't cut it.

Looking at medium or light armor, they provide nearly 20% to which ever passive they focus on (either damage, or regen etc) wouldn't it make sense if heavy armor provided nearly 20% damage reduction as a passive alone?

Im speaking in general terms. It's sad that a whole armor line is reduced to 2 peices.

Forestd16b14_ESO · November 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

In PvE HA is still usable all though be barely. As for PvP it make you a walking trash can literally from having no sustainable resource passive and all that resistance being cut down by players with 50%+ res penetration to it's skill being useless and one of it's best passives being thrown into said worthless skill.

HA in PvP is just a bad joke and ZOS knows this and has done nothing about it for not 1 but 2 updates all along with dragon knights and templars.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/225175/heavy-armor-needs-buffed-already#latest <-- Just my thoughts on how HA can be changed to be alot better cause if HA is supposed to be the best at defense then it should be the best at defense no matter what. Not out classed by rolling around or exploiting a broken mechanic (shield stacking).

"and all that resistance being cut down by players with 50%+ res penetration to it's skill being useless"

That is one of the big disconnects between PVP and PVE

Decrease penetration in PVP could be a solution, but not a sympathic one.

I favor more to introduce/increase penetration by NPC's AND increase Armor Resistance of HA

Would add more to PvE true true cause it is kinda weird how NPCs don't have crits or penetration effects...... NPCs don't have crits right??

I remember that some very old posts mention that some bosses can crit.... ???

BTW
If HA woud get more Armor Resistance. The current hard cap of 50% max Mitigation from Armor Resistance will prevent OP effects.
Say Armor Resistance in full HA, including buffs from armor sets and CP's, would become 43k. You get still 50% Damage Mitigation although you are over the 33k needed for that 50%. But you can now handle 10k reduction from Penetration without losing Mitigation. So you only go below 50% against a build that has Penetration stacked.

Could be OP but again you're giving up the resource management and attacks bonuses from LA and MA for what is supposed to be the best defense in the game. So yes players may spend 3 or 5 minutes pounding on you and not getting any where but what are you gonna do? Don't exactly have many options for a counter attack.

But all in all all the armors could used re-worked.

zornyan · November 2015

MrBeatDown wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

You guys might be using heavy armor wrong if your getting ez wrecked in PvP. I only wear 2 pieces heavy (Helm, Chest) and it works out pretty good with 5 medium.

@MrBeatDown Using 2 piece's of heavy does not constitute as being a heavy Armour user. You are a medium Armour user with a little bit extra Armour lol. Technically you are using heavy Armour but not a majority 5+.

This thread is trying to discuss heavy Armour user's with 5+ or more.

So pretty much anything you have said is invalid. You still have the sustain of a medium user with the damage. Take those away and wear 5+ heavy and come back to the thread.

ROFL. One of my good Friends uses 5 pieces of Black Rose on his Nord Dragon knight and face smashes groups of people solo because he has high health regeneration and knows how to use heavy. Hes also using a 2 hand weapon and on switch a sword and board. I wont sit here and listen to such rubbish when i see it with my own 2 eyes in pvp all the time. You guys need to learn how to properly distribute your CP points and stop reading the Internet guides on how to build a character. CP point distribution will make or break you in all classes/armor/races. Heavy armor is already OP and if their was no such thing as a cp cap, then heavy would have to get nerfed. Its a L2P issue for some people. When i hit the 501 cp cap i plan on re Dawning my 5 piece Divine Black Rose just to smash face with it..... I already got it all in V16, Divines, and upgraded to legendary.

Please stop with the QQ Threads on Heavy armor. What you probably need is class skill buffs.

Here's the issue.

I put on 5 pieces heavy armor and I get 20k phys resist and 20k spell resist.

I put on 5 light (with breton and templar passives buffed) I get 33k spell resist and 17k physical resist.

Since there's far more magic than physical damage it's more important imo, since all but 1 ultimate are magic, and lots of skills that even scale off stam are magic damage.

Heavy makes me LESS tanky, nor forgetting the fact I hit like a wet noodle in comparison, and can heal far far less causing me to run our of resources faster.

Petros · November 2015

MrBeatDown wrote: »

You guys might be using heavy armor wrong if your getting ez wrecked in PvP. I only wear 2 pieces heavy (Helm, Chest) and it works out pretty good with 5 medium.

Try out Black Rose. That is a very nice PVP Heavy armor set and i got 5 pieces Divine because its one of the best pieces out for tanks.

LMAO
For one, you're not a HA user, that's Medium, 5 pc med is medium, Go learn math!

AND

wow, no no, no, God no, Black rose for tanking? wow, I really wouldn't want to be in your group/raid