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Stamina Dominates PvP, Magicka Dominates PvE --> How to balance!
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Leon119✭✭✭✭well here's the thing. stam dps in pve is good enough to complete all the content. so the only people who are forced to go magicka are the 100+ more that actually want to compete on leaderboards for the best scores.
so yeah pretty balanced imo. a physical resist boost in pvp for magicka users would be nice tho so you arent forced to pvp with stam just to be decent, even though some magicka builds still crush people ( stamina builds have many exploitable weaknesses ).
ZOS doesnt and shouldnt bother to balance something that doesnt really need balancing becuase the top of the top players dont feel like playing magicka. they have bigger issues to tackle0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭And it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
nope
magica is just alot easier to sustain, and as 99% of all of us are rubbish dps dealing unworthy dmg fights last some time so sustain becomes a matter, and as stam is lacking abilities like elemental drain, siphon spirit, mystic orb and equilibrium.
the problem though is that all pve builds published and thus copied are done by players who are great from groups that kill any encounter within one resource bar+ eventually a few pots.
and while magica does perfectly fine under imperfect player handling thx to refills to cover longer fights stamina does not as they have no resource refill by group support outside of spear shards.
what needs to be done is e.g. change to ring of preservation to refill stamina by 150points every 0.5sec.
change siphon spirit to grant magica AND stamina.
and a change in the minds of avarage players to incorporate some sustain in their builds too.
regadrding pvp you are wrong too - the armor passiva has been changed wit IC from X% armor increasement into a X% dmg reduction to balance them out bewtween each other.
the problem for magica is in pvp that pvp is about burst, making it realy hard for any dot centered build, the lower base dmg wich in pve is compensated by resipiercing doesent matter in pvp as nearly noone is wearing heavy armor thus magica and stamina face nearly no dmg reduction and thus the esier Weapondmdmg stackability of stamina builds generates alot more burst. leading to a dead opponent.
on top of that magica user face the most powerfull shields anulment and its morphs. just think about the uproar if boneshield would be based of your stamina pool and lasts 20s...
I am talking from the perspective of those 'great players from groups that kill any encounter' and aiming for world best times. Our group support is as good as it can be. And I can assure you that we are basically forcing everybody who has a Magicka build to use that. Because it is way stronger and Stamina is just worse and can't compete on that level. And no, resources aren't an issue for neither Magicka nor Stamina in our group.
Go and ask the world record holders of trials what their group setups are and you'd be surprised how many Stamina builds are being used.
It's usually a number between 0 and 2.
well how many melee mana builds do they contain? i would guess the same...
the problem in pve aint stam or mana its melee or range and bow sucks DPS wise. as all bosses are extreamly melee unfriendlyspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭And it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
nope
magica is just alot easier to sustain, and as 99% of all of us are rubbish dps dealing unworthy dmg fights last some time so sustain becomes a matter, and as stam is lacking abilities like elemental drain, siphon spirit, mystic orb and equilibrium.
the problem though is that all pve builds published and thus copied are done by players who are great from groups that kill any encounter within one resource bar+ eventually a few pots.
and while magica does perfectly fine under imperfect player handling thx to refills to cover longer fights stamina does not as they have no resource refill by group support outside of spear shards.
what needs to be done is e.g. change to ring of preservation to refill stamina by 150points every 0.5sec.
change siphon spirit to grant magica AND stamina.
and a change in the minds of avarage players to incorporate some sustain in their builds too.
regadrding pvp you are wrong too - the armor passiva has been changed wit IC from X% armor increasement into a X% dmg reduction to balance them out bewtween each other.
the problem for magica is in pvp that pvp is about burst, making it realy hard for any dot centered build, the lower base dmg wich in pve is compensated by resipiercing doesent matter in pvp as nearly noone is wearing heavy armor thus magica and stamina face nearly no dmg reduction and thus the esier Weapondmdmg stackability of stamina builds generates alot more burst. leading to a dead opponent.
on top of that magica user face the most powerfull shields anulment and its morphs. just think about the uproar if boneshield would be based of your stamina pool and lasts 20s...
I am talking from the perspective of those 'great players from groups that kill any encounter' and aiming for world best times. Our group support is as good as it can be. And I can assure you that we are basically forcing everybody who has a Magicka build to use that. Because it is way stronger and Stamina is just worse and can't compete on that level. And no, resources aren't an issue for neither Magicka nor Stamina in our group.
Go and ask the world record holders of trials what their group setups are and you'd be surprised how many Stamina builds are being used.
It's usually a number between 0 and 2.
well how many melee mana builds do they contain? i would guess the same...
the problem in pve aint stam or mana its melee or range and bow sucks DPS wise. as all bosses are extreamly melee unfriendly
I'm sorry to break this to you but EVERY Magicka DPS is meelee (DK using Whip for Max DPS, Sorc using his Lightning Armor to increase DPS, etc.). In meelee you are pulling more DPS ---> you go meelee. Atleast when aiming for world records. And because everybody is going meelee anyways your point is not really there. Although it's true that bow isn't even a considerable option for PvE but that's another story.
You are probably not familiar with the tactics guilds use to obtain those high scores. With very few exceptions we stack right on the boss and burn him. Bosses might have some (very rare in trials actually) meelee unfriendly mechanics but even with those mechanics it is still worth to go meelee to get the Maximum DPS possible. Every little bit counts.
And as everybody is Meelee anyway there is no advantage rangewise for Magicka over Stamina. It's as Alcast says. The game was originally designed for only Magicka. And we are still feeling this now.
Edited by Xantaria on November 25, 2015 12:02PMXantaria - Lead of Chimaira
Hardcore Progress PvE Player - Livestream - Youtube
World First Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
World First Tick-Tock Tormentor
Proud Member of the Council of Exploiters.2 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭And it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
nope
magica is just alot easier to sustain, and as 99% of all of us are rubbish dps dealing unworthy dmg fights last some time so sustain becomes a matter, and as stam is lacking abilities like elemental drain, siphon spirit, mystic orb and equilibrium.
the problem though is that all pve builds published and thus copied are done by players who are great from groups that kill any encounter within one resource bar+ eventually a few pots.
and while magica does perfectly fine under imperfect player handling thx to refills to cover longer fights stamina does not as they have no resource refill by group support outside of spear shards.
what needs to be done is e.g. change to ring of preservation to refill stamina by 150points every 0.5sec.
change siphon spirit to grant magica AND stamina.
and a change in the minds of avarage players to incorporate some sustain in their builds too.
regadrding pvp you are wrong too - the armor passiva has been changed wit IC from X% armor increasement into a X% dmg reduction to balance them out bewtween each other.
the problem for magica is in pvp that pvp is about burst, making it realy hard for any dot centered build, the lower base dmg wich in pve is compensated by resipiercing doesent matter in pvp as nearly noone is wearing heavy armor thus magica and stamina face nearly no dmg reduction and thus the esier Weapondmdmg stackability of stamina builds generates alot more burst. leading to a dead opponent.
on top of that magica user face the most powerfull shields anulment and its morphs. just think about the uproar if boneshield would be based of your stamina pool and lasts 20s...
I am talking from the perspective of those 'great players from groups that kill any encounter' and aiming for world best times. Our group support is as good as it can be. And I can assure you that we are basically forcing everybody who has a Magicka build to use that. Because it is way stronger and Stamina is just worse and can't compete on that level. And no, resources aren't an issue for neither Magicka nor Stamina in our group.
Go and ask the world record holders of trials what their group setups are and you'd be surprised how many Stamina builds are being used.
It's usually a number between 0 and 2.
well how many melee mana builds do they contain? i would guess the same...
the problem in pve aint stam or mana its melee or range and bow sucks DPS wise. as all bosses are extreamly melee unfriendly
I'm sorry to break this to you but EVERY Magicka DPS is meelee (DK using Whip for Max DPS, Sorc using his Lightning Armor to increase DPS, etc.). In meelee you are pulling more DPS ---> you go meelee. Atleast when aiming for world records. And because everybody is going meelee anyways your point is not really there. Although it's true that bow isn't even a considerable option for PvE but that's another story.
You are probably not familiar with the tactics guilds use to obtain those high scores. With very few exceptions we stack right on the boss and burn him. Bosses might have some (very rare in trials actually) meelee unfriendly mechanics but even with those mechanics it is still worth to go meelee to get the Maximum DPS possible. Every little bit counts.
And as everybody is Meelee anyway there is no advantage rangewise for Magicka over Stamina. It's as Alcast says. The game was originally designed for only Magicka. And we are still feeling this now.
and i´m absolutly agreeing here with you and Alcast - but dmg itself is not the problem.spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeAnd it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
nope
magica is just alot easier to sustain, and as 99% of all of us are rubbish dps dealing unworthy dmg fights last some time so sustain becomes a matter, and as stam is lacking abilities like elemental drain, siphon spirit, mystic orb and equilibrium.
the problem though is that all pve builds published and thus copied are done by players who are great from groups that kill any encounter within one resource bar+ eventually a few pots.
and while magica does perfectly fine under imperfect player handling thx to refills to cover longer fights stamina does not as they have no resource refill by group support outside of spear shards.
what needs to be done is e.g. change to ring of preservation to refill stamina by 150points every 0.5sec.
change siphon spirit to grant magica AND stamina.
and a change in the minds of avarage players to incorporate some sustain in their builds too.
regadrding pvp you are wrong too - the armor passiva has been changed wit IC from X% armor increasement into a X% dmg reduction to balance them out bewtween each other.
the problem for magica is in pvp that pvp is about burst, making it realy hard for any dot centered build, the lower base dmg wich in pve is compensated by resipiercing doesent matter in pvp as nearly noone is wearing heavy armor thus magica and stamina face nearly no dmg reduction and thus the esier Weapondmdmg stackability of stamina builds generates alot more burst. leading to a dead opponent.
on top of that magica user face the most powerfull shields anulment and its morphs. just think about the uproar if boneshield would be based of your stamina pool and lasts 20s...
I am talking from the perspective of those 'great players from groups that kill any encounter' and aiming for world best times. Our group support is as good as it can be. And I can assure you that we are basically forcing everybody who has a Magicka build to use that. Because it is way stronger and Stamina is just worse and can't compete on that level. And no, resources aren't an issue for neither Magicka nor Stamina in our group.
Go and ask the world record holders of trials what their group setups are and you'd be surprised how many Stamina builds are being used.
It's usually a number between 0 and 2.
well how many melee mana builds do they contain? i would guess the same...
the problem in pve aint stam or mana its melee or range and bow sucks DPS wise. as all bosses are extreamly melee unfriendly
I'm sorry to break this to you but EVERY Magicka DPS is meelee (DK using Whip for Max DPS, Sorc using his Lightning Armor to increase DPS, etc.). In meelee you are pulling more DPS ---> you go meelee. Atleast when aiming for world records. And because everybody is going meelee anyways your point is not really there. Although it's true that bow isn't even a considerable option for PvE but that's another story.
You are probably not familiar with the tactics guilds use to obtain those high scores. With very few exceptions we stack right on the boss and burn him. Bosses might have some (very rare in trials actually) meelee unfriendly mechanics but even with those mechanics it is still worth to go meelee to get the Maximum DPS possible. Every little bit counts.
And as everybody is Meelee anyway there is no advantage rangewise for Magicka over Stamina. It's as Alcast says. The game was originally designed for only Magicka. And we are still feeling this now.
and i´m absolutly agreeing here with you and Alcast - but dmg itself is not the problem.
Why is dmg not the problem? Damage is exactly the only issue, and the only reason why magicka gets higher dps. They just can put out more dps compared to Stamina builds.https://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
https://eso-hub.com - ESO-Hub.com Sets, Skills, Guides & News
https://dwemerautomaton.com - Discord, Telegram & Twitch Command Bot2 -
Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭And it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
nope
magica is just alot easier to sustain, and as 99% of all of us are rubbish dps dealing unworthy dmg fights last some time so sustain becomes a matter, and as stam is lacking abilities like elemental drain, siphon spirit, mystic orb and equilibrium.
the problem though is that all pve builds published and thus copied are done by players who are great from groups that kill any encounter within one resource bar+ eventually a few pots.
and while magica does perfectly fine under imperfect player handling thx to refills to cover longer fights stamina does not as they have no resource refill by group support outside of spear shards.
what needs to be done is e.g. change to ring of preservation to refill stamina by 150points every 0.5sec.
change siphon spirit to grant magica AND stamina.
and a change in the minds of avarage players to incorporate some sustain in their builds too.
regadrding pvp you are wrong too - the armor passiva has been changed wit IC from X% armor increasement into a X% dmg reduction to balance them out bewtween each other.
the problem for magica is in pvp that pvp is about burst, making it realy hard for any dot centered build, the lower base dmg wich in pve is compensated by resipiercing doesent matter in pvp as nearly noone is wearing heavy armor thus magica and stamina face nearly no dmg reduction and thus the esier Weapondmdmg stackability of stamina builds generates alot more burst. leading to a dead opponent.
on top of that magica user face the most powerfull shields anulment and its morphs. just think about the uproar if boneshield would be based of your stamina pool and lasts 20s...
I am talking from the perspective of those 'great players from groups that kill any encounter' and aiming for world best times. Our group support is as good as it can be. And I can assure you that we are basically forcing everybody who has a Magicka build to use that. Because it is way stronger and Stamina is just worse and can't compete on that level. And no, resources aren't an issue for neither Magicka nor Stamina in our group.
Go and ask the world record holders of trials what their group setups are and you'd be surprised how many Stamina builds are being used.
It's usually a number between 0 and 2.
well how many melee mana builds do they contain? i would guess the same...
the problem in pve aint stam or mana its melee or range and bow sucks DPS wise. as all bosses are extreamly melee unfriendly
I'm sorry to break this to you but EVERY Magicka DPS is meelee (DK using Whip for Max DPS, Sorc using his Lightning Armor to increase DPS, etc.). In meelee you are pulling more DPS ---> you go meelee. Atleast when aiming for world records. And because everybody is going meelee anyways your point is not really there. Although it's true that bow isn't even a considerable option for PvE but that's another story.
You are probably not familiar with the tactics guilds use to obtain those high scores. With very few exceptions we stack right on the boss and burn him. Bosses might have some (very rare in trials actually) meelee unfriendly mechanics but even with those mechanics it is still worth to go meelee to get the Maximum DPS possible. Every little bit counts.
And as everybody is Meelee anyway there is no advantage rangewise for Magicka over Stamina. It's as Alcast says. The game was originally designed for only Magicka. And we are still feeling this now.
and i´m absolutly agreeing here with you and Alcast - but dmg itself is not the problem.
Why is dmg not the problem? Damage is exactly the only issue, and the only reason why magicka gets higher dps. They just can put out more dps compared to Stamina builds.
Yep.
(in PvE ... just in case people are unstanding this as a general fact, which it is not.)Xantaria - Lead of Chimaira
Hardcore Progress PvE Player - Livestream - Youtube
World First Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
World First Tick-Tock Tormentor
Proud Member of the Council of Exploiters.0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭And it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
nope
magica is just alot easier to sustain, and as 99% of all of us are rubbish dps dealing unworthy dmg fights last some time so sustain becomes a matter, and as stam is lacking abilities like elemental drain, siphon spirit, mystic orb and equilibrium.
the problem though is that all pve builds published and thus copied are done by players who are great from groups that kill any encounter within one resource bar+ eventually a few pots.
and while magica does perfectly fine under imperfect player handling thx to refills to cover longer fights stamina does not as they have no resource refill by group support outside of spear shards.
what needs to be done is e.g. change to ring of preservation to refill stamina by 150points every 0.5sec.
change siphon spirit to grant magica AND stamina.
and a change in the minds of avarage players to incorporate some sustain in their builds too.
regadrding pvp you are wrong too - the armor passiva has been changed wit IC from X% armor increasement into a X% dmg reduction to balance them out bewtween each other.
the problem for magica is in pvp that pvp is about burst, making it realy hard for any dot centered build, the lower base dmg wich in pve is compensated by resipiercing doesent matter in pvp as nearly noone is wearing heavy armor thus magica and stamina face nearly no dmg reduction and thus the esier Weapondmdmg stackability of stamina builds generates alot more burst. leading to a dead opponent.
on top of that magica user face the most powerfull shields anulment and its morphs. just think about the uproar if boneshield would be based of your stamina pool and lasts 20s...
I am talking from the perspective of those 'great players from groups that kill any encounter' and aiming for world best times. Our group support is as good as it can be. And I can assure you that we are basically forcing everybody who has a Magicka build to use that. Because it is way stronger and Stamina is just worse and can't compete on that level. And no, resources aren't an issue for neither Magicka nor Stamina in our group.
Go and ask the world record holders of trials what their group setups are and you'd be surprised how many Stamina builds are being used.
It's usually a number between 0 and 2.
well how many melee mana builds do they contain? i would guess the same...
the problem in pve aint stam or mana its melee or range and bow sucks DPS wise. as all bosses are extreamly melee unfriendly
I'm sorry to break this to you but EVERY Magicka DPS is meelee (DK using Whip for Max DPS, Sorc using his Lightning Armor to increase DPS, etc.). In meelee you are pulling more DPS ---> you go meelee. Atleast when aiming for world records. And because everybody is going meelee anyways your point is not really there. Although it's true that bow isn't even a considerable option for PvE but that's another story.
You are probably not familiar with the tactics guilds use to obtain those high scores. With very few exceptions we stack right on the boss and burn him. Bosses might have some (very rare in trials actually) meelee unfriendly mechanics but even with those mechanics it is still worth to go meelee to get the Maximum DPS possible. Every little bit counts.
And as everybody is Meelee anyway there is no advantage rangewise for Magicka over Stamina. It's as Alcast says. The game was originally designed for only Magicka. And we are still feeling this now.
and i´m absolutly agreeing here with you and Alcast - but dmg itself is not the problem.
Why is dmg not the problem? Damage is exactly the only issue, and the only reason why magicka gets higher dps. They just can put out more dps compared to Stamina builds.
well i can only speak for myself, but my stamina chars do more dmg than my magica chars (despite my DK) class depending massively more my stamina sorc is in a different ballpark compared to my sorc outside of overload spam. if you do not have some mana nightblades/healer with spell power cure...
but mana builds are alot more durable in terms of sustain , utility aswell as survival and thats what makes them superior.spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
willymchilybily✭✭✭✭Although your PvP ascertions for magicka are debateable (magicka class abilities tend to grant more utility than what is available for stamina users/weapon skills).
I do agree with your point on the buff to physical resistance not being inline with magicka, the best you can do is 100CP for 13% buff to armor (which is both resistances) seems a very poor option. I can add 16% through robust, or 6/12% through defending if i wanted that, its not worth the CP.
and when you consider i can split those same 100 CP into Hardy and spell resistance to get a 15.4% reduction to magicka damage and increase my resitance by 15.4% on top, it becomes clear there is a big disparity. Why is there no physical damage reduction, or physical resistance increase?PSN - WarpPigeon - Guild: TheSyndicate - EU, Ebonheart PactDragon Knight [Magicka] - 720 - StormproofNight Blade [Magicka] - 720 - StormproofSorcerer [Magicka] - 720 - Flawless ConquerorTemplar [Magicka] - 720 - StormproofDragon Knight [Stamina] - 720 - StormproofNight Blade [Stamina] - 720 - StormproofSorcerer [Stamina] - 7202 -
Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭And it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
nope
magica is just alot easier to sustain, and as 99% of all of us are rubbish dps dealing unworthy dmg fights last some time so sustain becomes a matter, and as stam is lacking abilities like elemental drain, siphon spirit, mystic orb and equilibrium.
the problem though is that all pve builds published and thus copied are done by players who are great from groups that kill any encounter within one resource bar+ eventually a few pots.
and while magica does perfectly fine under imperfect player handling thx to refills to cover longer fights stamina does not as they have no resource refill by group support outside of spear shards.
what needs to be done is e.g. change to ring of preservation to refill stamina by 150points every 0.5sec.
change siphon spirit to grant magica AND stamina.
and a change in the minds of avarage players to incorporate some sustain in their builds too.
regadrding pvp you are wrong too - the armor passiva has been changed wit IC from X% armor increasement into a X% dmg reduction to balance them out bewtween each other.
the problem for magica is in pvp that pvp is about burst, making it realy hard for any dot centered build, the lower base dmg wich in pve is compensated by resipiercing doesent matter in pvp as nearly noone is wearing heavy armor thus magica and stamina face nearly no dmg reduction and thus the esier Weapondmdmg stackability of stamina builds generates alot more burst. leading to a dead opponent.
on top of that magica user face the most powerfull shields anulment and its morphs. just think about the uproar if boneshield would be based of your stamina pool and lasts 20s...
I am talking from the perspective of those 'great players from groups that kill any encounter' and aiming for world best times. Our group support is as good as it can be. And I can assure you that we are basically forcing everybody who has a Magicka build to use that. Because it is way stronger and Stamina is just worse and can't compete on that level. And no, resources aren't an issue for neither Magicka nor Stamina in our group.
Go and ask the world record holders of trials what their group setups are and you'd be surprised how many Stamina builds are being used.
It's usually a number between 0 and 2.
well how many melee mana builds do they contain? i would guess the same...
the problem in pve aint stam or mana its melee or range and bow sucks DPS wise. as all bosses are extreamly melee unfriendly
I'm sorry to break this to you but EVERY Magicka DPS is meelee (DK using Whip for Max DPS, Sorc using his Lightning Armor to increase DPS, etc.). In meelee you are pulling more DPS ---> you go meelee. Atleast when aiming for world records. And because everybody is going meelee anyways your point is not really there. Although it's true that bow isn't even a considerable option for PvE but that's another story.
You are probably not familiar with the tactics guilds use to obtain those high scores. With very few exceptions we stack right on the boss and burn him. Bosses might have some (very rare in trials actually) meelee unfriendly mechanics but even with those mechanics it is still worth to go meelee to get the Maximum DPS possible. Every little bit counts.
And as everybody is Meelee anyway there is no advantage rangewise for Magicka over Stamina. It's as Alcast says. The game was originally designed for only Magicka. And we are still feeling this now.
and i´m absolutly agreeing here with you and Alcast - but dmg itself is not the problem.
Why is dmg not the problem? Damage is exactly the only issue, and the only reason why magicka gets higher dps. They just can put out more dps compared to Stamina builds.
well i can only speak for myself, but my stamina chars do more dmg than my magica chars (despite my DK) class depending massively more my stamina sorc is in a different ballpark compared to my sorc outside of overload spam. if you do not have some mana nightblades/healer with spell power cure...
but mana builds are alot more durable in terms of sustain , utility aswell as survival and thats what makes them superior.
I just doubt you have experienced high end raiding yet. And high end raiding is where this complaint is coming from. And trust me if you play your characters perfect you will dish out a *** more DPS with your MAgicka Characters. You are probably just playing Stamina better than Magicka.
Edited by Xantaria on November 25, 2015 1:51PMXantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭willymchilybily wrote: »Although your PvP ascertions for magicka are debateable (magicka class abilities tend to grant more utility than what is available for stamina users/weapon skills).
I do agree with your point on the buff to physical resistance not being inline with magicka, the best you can do is 100CP for 13% buff to armor (which is both resistances) seems a very poor option. I can add 16% through robust, or 6/12% through defending if i wanted that, its not worth the CP.
and when you consider i can split those same 100 CP into Hardy and spell resistance to get a 15.4% reduction to magicka damage and increase my resitance by 15.4% on top, it becomes clear there is a big disparity. Why is there no physical damage reduction, or physical resistance increase?
PvP is always debatable beacuse everyone experiences it different everybody ahs a different skill level etc. The other stuff you listed is exactly the point and I totally aggree. I wonder where this design decision came from.Xantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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AlcastClass RepresentativeJust an Example, I was very happy to pull 26k dps on Manti on my Stamina Templar...
but then the big fancy magicka boys come in
Magicka Sorc 35k+dps
Magicka DK 30k+dps
and I go back into my black hole where I came out from full of hope
Edited by Alcast on November 25, 2015 2:05PMhttps://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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Artjuh90✭✭✭✭✭
✭willymchilybily wrote: »Although your PvP ascertions for magicka are debateable (magicka class abilities tend to grant more utility than what is available for stamina users/weapon skills).
I do agree with your point on the buff to physical resistance not being inline with magicka, the best you can do is 100CP for 13% buff to armor (which is both resistances) seems a very poor option. I can add 16% through robust, or 6/12% through defending if i wanted that, its not worth the CP.
and when you consider i can split those same 100 CP into Hardy and spell resistance to get a 15.4% reduction to magicka damage and increase my resitance by 15.4% on top, it becomes clear there is a big disparity. Why is there no physical damage reduction, or physical resistance increase?
what people tend to forget armor = physical resistance?
and the light/medium/heavy armor focus gives physical resistance?0 -
Kas✭✭✭✭✭willymchilybily wrote: »Although your PvP ascertions for magicka are debateable (magicka class abilities tend to grant more utility than what is available for stamina users/weapon skills).
I do agree with your point on the buff to physical resistance not being inline with magicka, the best you can do is 100CP for 13% buff to armor (which is both resistances) seems a very poor option. I can add 16% through robust, or 6/12% through defending if i wanted that, its not worth the CP.
and when you consider i can split those same 100 CP into Hardy and spell resistance to get a 15.4% reduction to magicka damage and increase my resitance by 15.4% on top, it becomes clear there is a big disparity. Why is there no physical damage reduction, or physical resistance increase?
what people tend to forget armor = physical resistance?
and the light/medium/heavy armor focus gives physical resistance?
l/m/h focus <-> spell resistence
hardy+ele def <-> ???Edited by Kas on November 25, 2015 2:24PM@bbu - AD/EU
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derek.bretherton1b16_ESOSoul ShrivenTo a point I have to agree with this as a Templar I feel in pve my strongest build will always be healing, which ofc is magika. I also pvp and have tried both magika and stamina and found that stamina in much higher burst damage in pvp.
The only remedy I can see to this is to allow us to duel spec as well as Xantria`s suggestion of putting in a additional champ to mitigate physical damage and also allow skills to scale off your highest attribute.
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thelordoffelines✭✭✭✭✭Helgi_Skotina wrote: »Helgi_Skotina wrote: »The strongest PvP class is magika sorc so stamina isnt OP.
That is a different problem and is not due to Magicka. It is due to being a Magicka Sorc.
But people might disaggree and call Nightblade the best and stuff like that. But it won't help this discussion. So let's try to keep the class balance out of this.
This thread is focussing solely on the missing Physical Damage Reduction Champion System Passive.
Caltrops = NB is dead.The only class where a stamina build is stronger than magicka is DK - just give him a strong magicka attack doing 10+k DPS and problem is solved.
Um no. In pvp stam nb is stronger than magicka nb by a lot. No stam nb should be dieing because of caltrops unless they are doing something wrong.1 -
willymchilybily✭✭✭✭what people tend to forget armor = physical resistance?
and the light/medium/heavy armor focus gives physical resistance?
im desperately looking for where it was stated. i cant find in patch notes. but it was stated that you get +1 point of spell resistance for each point of physical resistance granted by armor. So....- Armor is not just physical resistance it is armor which is both +spell and +physical resistance in equal measure.
- There is no physical resistance like there is spell resistance
- There is no physcial damage reduction like there is magicka,poison,disease, and elemental damage reduction
Edited by willymchilybily on November 25, 2015 2:44PMPSN - WarpPigeon - Guild: TheSyndicate - EU, Ebonheart PactDragon Knight [Magicka] - 720 - StormproofNight Blade [Magicka] - 720 - StormproofSorcerer [Magicka] - 720 - Flawless ConquerorTemplar [Magicka] - 720 - StormproofDragon Knight [Stamina] - 720 - StormproofNight Blade [Stamina] - 720 - StormproofSorcerer [Stamina] - 7200 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bfish22090 wrote: »You clearly haven't played a magicka sorc or heavy armor magicka templar in PVP
I have and no I dont get what you mean. Yes, magicka sorc hits hard while maintaining high survivability. But it's in such easy mode category of it's own in PvP, nothing like other magicka builds.
But than you say heavy armor magicka templar in the same sentence lol. They have crappy dmg, cant kill anyone that matters, bad sustain and doomed to die. So I'm confused what you mean really.
Topic: Stamina shines in PvP for multiple reasons. There's no way to reduce physical dmg taken 25% using CP. This is the main reason, you dont have to overcome hardy and elemental defender stacking, when killing players. Most stamina based skills can be animation channelled. Sneak attack bonus. Natural mobility. Everything that meta is about.
In PvE there's no such advantages for stamina builds. You cant insta-kill bosses opening with sneak attacks, NPC's cant stack CP and being able to disengage and dodge around gets you nowhere.
I really wish we had better balance as well. Right now I mostly feel bothered about stamina dps in PvE groups. I just know they will under-perform and more likely to die. Same in PvP, if we run a small team of only magicka(especially if DK's and templars)we just cant burst stuff down fast enough, before overrun. It's equally annoying.0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DPS of burst stamina in pvp might be higher in general then magicka, but magicka got them sick spammable damage shields so...
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Vangy✭✭✭✭✭
✭My stam dk with double kena --> At best ard 20k DPS ( slightly more if daedra/undead)
My mag sorc --> (35k with overload lol... ard 20+ without it)
Sorc>> everything and everyone in PVE lol.
I still prefer my DK for pvp tho. That stealth molten+rally+camo hunter + bow heavy attack + silver shards with animation cancel too gud to give up.(2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
(2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
(2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
(1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
CP: 610 and counting
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Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just an Example, I was very happy to pull 26k dps on Manti on my Stamina Templar...
but then the big fancy magicka boys come in
Magicka Sorc 35k+dps
Magicka DK 30k+dps
and I go back into my black hole where I came out from full of hope
so you say a stamina temp beaten by a magica sorc dps wise would beat her if hes magica speced aswell?
sorry but when you compare magica and stamina you´ll have to stick to the class you are testing it on... while having comparable situations - so a overload spam contest on a sorc would´t be fair either without points in elementel expert and light armor and nirn weapons for the stamina user to match resistance pierce values and dmg increasements...Edited by Tankqull on November 25, 2015 2:59PMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
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Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭yonkit or gilliam might have something to say about stamina dps not being great in pve... just sayin0 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeJust an Example, I was very happy to pull 26k dps on Manti on my Stamina Templar...
but then the big fancy magicka boys come in
Magicka Sorc 35k+dps
Magicka DK 30k+dps
and I go back into my black hole where I came out from full of hope
so you say a stamina temp beaten by a magica sorc dps wise would beat her if hes magica speced aswell?
sorry but when you compare magica and stamina you´ll have to stick to the class you are testing it on... while having comparable situations - so a overload spam contest on a sorc would´t be fair either without points in elementel expert and light armor and nirn weapons for the stamina user to match resistance pierce values and dmg increasements...
Do you raid? Do you know the numbers that the classes pull?
I have yet to see a stamina char to beat a Magicka DK or Sorc. Dont know about NB bc aint got never one in da grp.
And yes, comparing magicka vs stamina makes sense, both should have EQUAL chances of about the same dps.Edited by Alcast on November 25, 2015 4:06PMhttps://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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MrGrimey✭✭✭✭✭If they equaled out cp resistance... Why would anyone run stamina? They are already useless in pve, but doing that would make them useless in pvp. I don't get where the op is going with this, do you want stamina buffed or magicka buffed.
Btw, it makes sense that stamina should do more damage since they have less utility. If you make stamina and magicka equal, then stamina becomes obsolete. Let's try not to break the game too much here0 -
OGLezard✭✭✭✭✭
✭Johngo0036 wrote: »Helgi_Skotina wrote: »The strongest PvP class is magika sorc so stamina isnt OP.
The only reason sorcs are the strongest is due to the fact that they have the STRONGEST Damage Shield which mitigates ALL damage, physical of Magical.....
With 100 CP's into bastion you need to beat through a 20K+ shield..
Also why are they the only class thats shield scales off of their strongest attribute...Magicka....
Get out of here @Johngo0036 lol 20k shield rofl I have 100 into bastion with 3k SD, and 46k magicka. In pvp it is ONLY 12k shield which is shot down in one to two attacks FORCING ME to recast it all. The. Time.
Now if a sorc uses shields EVERYONE has access to and puts them with hardened yea they can reach it.
To answer the question as to why we have shields that scale off magicka, well it's simple: we don't have ultimates that heal us, we don't have class reliable heals, we can't go invisible and the mobility we used to have has been gutted every patch because people feel they should be able to catch a sorc who plays cat and mouse preying on those stupid enough to persue.
Edited by OGLezard on November 25, 2015 5:12PM0 -
swaggasm✭✭✭yonkit or gilliam might have something to say about stamina dps not being great in pve... just sayin
They would agree that magicka dps outshines stamina dps in a competitive sense in pve, by a fairly large margin.Edited by swaggasm on November 25, 2015 6:59PM2 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wait wait.
No physical damage redux from cp system?
So then what does crit damage redux do exactly?
My understanding is that it reduces incoming crit damage of all types, including phys.
Also let's not forget shield spam, proxy det, extreme healing, cloak spam, sets that reduce rez time -- just to name a few of the utilities magicka classes have access to that stam classes do not.Edited by Cathexis on November 25, 2015 8:13PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭If they equaled out cp resistance... Why would anyone run stamina? They are already useless in pve, but doing that would make them useless in pvp. I don't get where the op is going with this, do you want stamina buffed or magicka buffed.
Btw, it makes sense that stamina should do more damage since they have less utility. If you make stamina and magicka equal, then stamina becomes obsolete. Let's try not to break the game too much here
I want to have equal ground so balancing (buffing Stamina) can happen after that. Because if you would just buff Stamina right now they would become too overpowered in PvP.Edited by Xantaria on November 26, 2015 8:36AMXantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭If they equaled out cp resistance... Why would anyone run stamina? They are already useless in pve, but doing that would make them useless in pvp. I don't get where the op is going with this, do you want stamina buffed or magicka buffed.
Btw, it makes sense that stamina should do more damage since they have less utility. If you make stamina and magicka equal, then stamina becomes obsolete. Let's try not to break the game too much here
I want to have equal ground so balancing (buffing Stamina) can happen after that. Because if you would jsut buff Stamina right now they would become too overpowered in PvP.
agree
it is structural more solid and healthy to balance "like for likes" first and then look at the bigger picture."I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU0 -
Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wait wait.
No physical damage redux from cp system?
So then what does crit damage redux do exactly?
My understanding is that it reduces incoming crit damage of all types, including phys.
Also let's not forget shield spam, proxy det, extreme healing, cloak spam, sets that reduce rez time -- just to name a few of the utilities magicka classes have access to that stam classes do not.
Your argument does not make a lot of sense as the crit damage reduction also applies to Spell damage based damage.Xantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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