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Stamina Dominates PvP, Magicka Dominates PvE --> How to balance!
Xantaria
✭✭✭✭✭
✭
✭
And it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
Edited by Xantaria on November 25, 2015 9:23AM Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
Xantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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11
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Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »Pick a race that can do both.- Imperial
- Bosmer
- Dunmer
Whatever this has to do with the topic.
Or do you mean it like switching between Stam / Mag depending if you play PvP or PvE? lol
That doesn't fix the problem though.Edited by Xantaria on November 25, 2015 9:20AMXantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sounds balanced to me... Different applications excel in different environments
So if somebody wants to purely play PvE he is FORCED to play Magicka to compete?
Does that sound balanced to you?Xantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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Kas✭✭✭✭✭
iirc you were pulling pretty high dps in 1.6 as stamina dk.
have you tested the msa daggers, yet? imo, unstable flame seems liek the best (only?) dot where the daggers could have a serious impact
on topic: wow, such insight. how on earth did you reach that conclusion just today?!!? ;-)@bbu - AD/EU
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Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Helgi_Skotina wrote: »The strongest PvP class is magika sorc so stamina isnt OP.
That is a different problem and is not due to Magicka. It is due to being a Magicka Sorc.
But people might disaggree and call Nightblade the best and stuff like that. But it won't help this discussion. So let's try to keep the class balance out of this.
This thread is focussing solely on the missing Physical Damage Reduction Champion System Passive.Edited by Xantaria on November 25, 2015 9:28AMXantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭
iirc you were pulling pretty high dps in 1.6 as stamina dk.
have you tested the msa daggers, yet? imo, unstable flame seems liek the best (only?) dot where the daggers could have a serious impact
on topic: wow, such insight. how on earth did you reach that conclusion just today?!!? ;-)
I mean everybody knows it right? It's just that I haven't seen a specific thread about it yet.
In 1.6 my DPS was Exceptionally high, but it was only due to the armorpenetration bug. Those days are gone. But in the End Stamina was closer to Magicka when that bug existed. They just removed it without giving Stamina anything in exchange though.
The MSA daggers are a nice bonus btw. Definitely not bad, but I only did 3 runs so far so I didn't get my hand on one yet. I don't think they will shoot my DPS up by 6k+ though.Edited by Xantaria on November 25, 2015 9:32AMXantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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MrGrimey✭✭✭✭✭
Isn't that like saying, "if someone wants to be a magicka sorc, then they are FORCED to be a high elf"?
No other race can come close to being as good of a sorcerer as a high elf, but doesn't mean the other races can't compete.
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Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Isn't that like saying, "if someone wants to be a magicka sorc, then they are FORCED to be a high elf"?
No other race can come close to being as good of a sorcerer as a high elf, but doesn't mean the other races can't compete.
Yes because the difference in PvE DPS will be what ... 5-8% at Maximum.
Currently we are looking at a difference of 30-40% between Magicka and Stamina in PvE DPS.
So it is a much more serious matter.
But of course you are not wrong. Choosing the correct race for your class and build is very important for competitive endgame.Edited by Xantaria on November 25, 2015 9:38AMXantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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Spearshard✭✭✭✭My mag blade pulls some really random dps in pvp. Pve side, in general, solidly 20k dps, in not even optimal gear. Without a full monster set. In pvp, sometimes he'll get ok dps, sometimes Swallow soul will hit for 500. Between the battle spirit debuff to player damage and the CP star that directly lowers magic damage recieved, it's like swinging a wet noodle.0
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Van_0S✭✭✭✭✭YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »Pick a race that can do both.- Imperial
- Bosmer
- Dunmer
Whatever this has to do with the topic.
Or do you mean it like switching between Stam / Mag depending if you play PvP or PvE? lol
That doesn't fix the problem though.
Well, I was just giving a solution to the problem. So, right now we can't do anything about it unless ZOS considers it relavent.0 -
Helgi_Skotina✭✭✭Helgi_Skotina wrote: »The strongest PvP class is magika sorc so stamina isnt OP.
That is a different problem and is not due to Magicka. It is due to being a Magicka Sorc.
But people might disaggree and call Nightblade the best and stuff like that. But it won't help this discussion. So let's try to keep the class balance out of this.
This thread is focussing solely on the missing Physical Damage Reduction Champion System Passive.
Caltrops = NB is dead.The only class where a stamina build is stronger than magicka is DK - just give him a strong magicka attack doing 10+k DPS and problem is solved.0 -
Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Helgi_Skotina wrote: »Helgi_Skotina wrote: »The strongest PvP class is magika sorc so stamina isnt OP.
That is a different problem and is not due to Magicka. It is due to being a Magicka Sorc.
But people might disaggree and call Nightblade the best and stuff like that. But it won't help this discussion. So let's try to keep the class balance out of this.
This thread is focussing solely on the missing Physical Damage Reduction Champion System Passive.
Caltrops = NB is dead.The only class where a stamina build is stronger than magicka is DK - just give him a strong magicka attack doing 10+k DPS and problem is solved.
As I already mentioned this is not leading the thread into the right direction. There are enough threads about class balance, it's not what I'm aiming at.Xantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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Johngo0036✭✭✭✭✭Helgi_Skotina wrote: »The strongest PvP class is magika sorc so stamina isnt OP.
The only reason sorcs are the strongest is due to the fact that they have the STRONGEST Damage Shield which mitigates ALL damage, physical of Magical.....
With 100 CP's into bastion you need to beat through a 20K+ shield..
Also why are they the only class thats shield scales off of their strongest attribute...Magicka....
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Helgi_Skotina✭✭✭Infact, what can a stamina build do in PvP?
1. WB spam
2. Steel tornado spaming group.
3. Hide and snipe.
Thats all.0 -
Van_0S✭✭✭✭✭Helgi_Skotina wrote: »Infact, what can a stamina build do in PvP?
1. WB spam
2. Steel tornado spaming group.
3. Hide and snipe.
Thats all.
Hahaha!!! Very true.
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Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Speaking strictly as a stamina templar I don't recognize the problem with being better than magicka builds in PvP, but that is more a class balance issue than related to this topic.
I agree that in general there is a disparity depending on the content. But what do you propose as a fix? Changing a CP passive to give physical resistance? In that case which one?1 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Adding physical damage resistance to thick skinned would be the way to go in my option.2 -
Ruben✭✭✭✭✭have you tested the msa daggers, yet? imo, unstable flame seems liek the best (only?) dot where the daggers could have a serious impact
I did. Unstable flame went from 4k/hit to 5k/hit or something like that. 100% underwhelming.DK Stamina DPS
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hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭Speaking strictly as a stamina templar I don't recognize the problem with being better than magicka builds in PvP, but that is more a class balance issue than related to this topic.
I agree that in general there is a disparity depending on the content. But what do you propose as a fix? Changing a CP passive to give physical resistance? In that case which one?
I think that ZOS needs to add stars anyway to the CP tree in the course of time.
The CP system helps diversity of builds as long as you spend substantally less CP's as max.
At full CP there is no effect anymore between builds by the CP tree !!!
So per DLC, per 100-200 CP added as available to spend, ZOS can add 1-2 stars.
Nice for marketing. Nice for slowly tweaking / balancing with the CP tree.
Edited by hrothbern on November 25, 2015 10:34AM"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭And it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
nope
magica is just alot easier to sustain, and as 99% of all of us are rubbish dps dealing unworthy dmg fights last some time so sustain becomes a matter, and as stam is lacking abilities like elemental drain, siphon spirit, mystic orb and equilibrium.
the problem though is that all pve builds published and thus copied are done by players who are great from groups that kill any encounter within one resource bar+ eventually a few pots.
and while magica does perfectly fine under imperfect player handling thx to refills to cover longer fights stamina does not as they have no resource refill by group support outside of spear shards.
what needs to be done is e.g. change to ring of preservation to refill stamina by 150points every 0.5sec.
change siphon spirit to grant magica AND stamina.
and a change in the minds of avarage players to incorporate some sustain in their builds too.
regarding pvp you are wrong too - the armor passiva has been changed wit IC from X% armor increasement into a X% dmg reduction to balance them out bewtween each other.
the problem for magica is in pvp that pvp is about burst, making it realy hard for any dot centered build, the lower base dmg wich in pve is compensated by resipiercing doesent matter in pvp as nearly noone is wearing heavy armor thus magica and stamina face nearly no dmg reduction and thus the esier Weapondmdmg stackability of stamina builds generates alot more burst. leading to a dead opponent.
on top of that magica user face the most powerfull shields anulment and its morphs. just think about the uproar if boneshield would be based of your stamina pool and lasts 20s...Edited by Tankqull on November 25, 2015 11:10AMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
gen_reynard2050✭✭✭
stam op pvp? what can stam pvp do.. if magicka sorcs keep shield on.... ??? can't crit cant dot..
"What the lion cannot manage to do, the fox can".2 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭gen_reynard2050 wrote: » stam op pvp? what can stam pvp do.. if magicka sorcs keep shield on.... ??? can't crit cant dot..
Learn to play?spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"3 -
Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭And it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
nope
magica is just alot easier to sustain, and as 99% of all of us are rubbish dps dealing unworthy dmg fights last some time so sustain becomes a matter, and as stam is lacking abilities like elemental drain, siphon spirit, mystic orb and equilibrium.
the problem though is that all pve builds published and thus copied are done by players who are great from groups that kill any encounter within one resource bar+ eventually a few pots.
and while magica does perfectly fine under imperfect player handling thx to refills to cover longer fights stamina does not as they have no resource refill by group support outside of spear shards.
what needs to be done is e.g. change to ring of preservation to refill stamina by 150points every 0.5sec.
change siphon spirit to grant magica AND stamina.
and a change in the minds of avarage players to incorporate some sustain in their builds too.
regadrding pvp you are wrong too - the armor passiva has been changed wit IC from X% armor increasement into a X% dmg reduction to balance them out bewtween each other.
the problem for magica is in pvp that pvp is about burst, making it realy hard for any dot centered build, the lower base dmg wich in pve is compensated by resipiercing doesent matter in pvp as nearly noone is wearing heavy armor thus magica and stamina face nearly no dmg reduction and thus the esier Weapondmdmg stackability of stamina builds generates alot more burst. leading to a dead opponent.
on top of that magica user face the most powerfull shields anulment and its morphs. just think about the uproar if boneshield would be based of your stamina pool and lasts 20s...
I am talking from the perspective of those 'great players from groups that kill any encounter' and aiming for world best times. Our group support is as good as it can be. And I can assure you that we are basically forcing everybody who has a Magicka build to use that. Because it is way stronger and Stamina is just worse and can't compete on that level. And no, resources aren't an issue for neither Magicka nor Stamina in our group.
Go and ask the world record holders of trials what their group setups are and you'd be surprised how many Stamina builds are being used.
It's usually a number between 0 and 2.Edited by Xantaria on November 25, 2015 11:14AMXantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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remedios17✭✭✭as OP stated this isn't about class balance it is about that u can directly reduce elemental and magical dmg by a FLAT percentage plus on top of that you can also increase your spell resistance.
On the other hand against physical dmg you can only increase your resistanca by x% (and I think u cant even push it to 25% like spell shield not 100% sure about that though).
In heavy armor in pvp and with all buff i can push my phys res to 30k but I think most stam player can easily ignore half of that result I'm walking in LA and an LA player walking naked perhaps.
My spell res is way over hard cap it is 36k even if a magicka player ignore the half of that I still have a FLAT dmg reduction due to CP, and THAT is the problem.
Plus on all this imbalance we have the dodgeroll and the block nerf. I still believe soft caps were good and it is a shame that they removed it.
On the pve side i dont really have relevant exp with stam dmg so I wont comment on that
Guildmaster of the Order of the Magna Ge - social guild EP EU with 200+ members from all levels, all over the world, forming a nice relaxed, friendly - and a bit crazy - community - check us out at orderofthemagnage.guildlaunch.com or whisper me in game.2 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeAnd it is not hard to figure out why.
Magicka DPS in General against a monster with equal Magic and Physical Resistance is a lot higher than Stamina DPS.
So now against players this looks totally different. And this is due to our beloved Champion System.
Elemental Defender and the other Defensive CP passives heavily reduce incoming Spell Damage based Damage and DoTs.
Whereas against Stamina Based Damage (mostly Physical) there is no CP passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
Sure, there are passives that do increase your resistances, but they are not nearly as effective.
Especially not for people that have a low amount of resistances anyways.
So in PvP the Stamina builds that aren't even used anymore by top raiding groups in PvE because of their low DPS, are extremely strong.
Now here is the major issue this is causing:
For the develpoers there is almost no way to increase Stamina DPS for PvE without making them even more overpowered in PvP. There is no way to balance it out.
Why? Well, I said it already, because the Championsystem does not contain a Passive that reduces incoming physical damage by X%.
And this is what needs to be fixed. After that it should be way easier to adjust Stamina and Magicka and create balance and equal chances in both PvP and PvE.
nope
magica is just alot easier to sustain, and as 99% of all of us are rubbish dps dealing unworthy dmg fights last some time so sustain becomes a matter, and as stam is lacking abilities like elemental drain, siphon spirit, mystic orb and equilibrium.
the problem though is that all pve builds published and thus copied are done by players who are great from groups that kill any encounter within one resource bar+ eventually a few pots.
and while magica does perfectly fine under imperfect player handling thx to refills to cover longer fights stamina does not as they have no resource refill by group support outside of spear shards.
what needs to be done is e.g. change to ring of preservation to refill stamina by 150points every 0.5sec.
change siphon spirit to grant magica AND stamina.
and a change in the minds of avarage players to incorporate some sustain in their builds too.
regarding pvp you are wrong too - the armor passiva has been changed wit IC from X% armor increasement into a X% dmg reduction to balance them out bewtween each other.
the problem for magica is in pvp that pvp is about burst, making it realy hard for any dot centered build, the lower base dmg wich in pve is compensated by resipiercing doesent matter in pvp as nearly noone is wearing heavy armor thus magica and stamina face nearly no dmg reduction and thus the esier Weapondmdmg stackability of stamina builds generates alot more burst. leading to a dead opponent.
on top of that magica user face the most powerfull shields anulment and its morphs. just think about the uproar if boneshield would be based of your stamina pool and lasts 20s...
Sustain is not an issue at all if you have decent ppl in the grp. Repentance blazing spear
. Issue is that Magicka just does way more dm than stam bc the game was designed only for magicka builds. https://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭While you raise valid concerns, like most threads in this forum that discuss balance, you are greatly exaggerating your points. Stamina is strong in PvP, yes. But it by no means 'dominates'. Every single class save for magicka dk can be as powerful if not more as their magicka variant than their stamina variant in cyrodiil. While you could argue stamina has an edge in damage, magicka has far more utility and general staying power. Id stop short of using the term 'dominates'. Magicka does however have a greater edge in PvE than Stam does in PvP.
Not to belittle the points you've raised, I just don't think the exaggeration is necessary.Edited by CyrusArya on November 25, 2015 11:26AM2
