Does CP ruin BwB for new players?

Yolokin_Swagonborn · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

I am seeing more and more names of people from AP farming and aoe spamming guilds moving to BWB. The reason most of us left Veteran PvP is that BWB has a lot less of the spammy cheesy gameplay that we all hate. The aoe spam mobs, the high CP optimized faceroll builds.

Now that battle leveling in BWB allows for more min/maxing there is practically no difference between vet and non-vet in the amount of damage you can stack.

At least with the old system, everyone had a ton of health and near equal resource pools where you could do a ton of fun hybrid builds and still be effective. Now BWB is pretty much like vet. No bueno.

Flipd · November 2015

I have no Champion Points myself and Blackwater Blade is less enjoyable due to inclusion of Champion Points.

mtwiggz wrote: »

Really doesn't make a difference to me, wish there was more options.

A lot of people reroll characters to take part in BwB. If Champion Points were removed from BwB the next step would be to remove veteran PvPers from BwB to make it more fair. The list will go on until the only people left in BwB are fresh new characters running around light and heavy attacking each other.

Alucardo wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

@Alucardo care to show that image of that NB move to show what CPs can do?

The damage is real

What in the absolute hell is this? 35k Teleport Strike? I feel as though the Photoshop is strong with this one.

ur *** ***.

BwB is a "non vet campaign" <--- NON - VET!

CP is huge for non-vet.

Digerati · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

This poll allows for *** to self-identify. You're welcome, community. 11 people, so far, have raised their hand and identified as scumbags.

LadyNalcarya · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

I have 500 cps, and I agree that they should be disabled in BwB, because the advantage they give is insane. I even think there should be a vet non-cp campaign.

Banroc · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

Of course CP make a difference in BWB .
When you see players who have a couple of vet characters but they keep rolling alts to enter BWB you can be sure they are taking advantage of the system in place

Been saying for ages CP should only apply to the character that earned them no more problem then.. BWB would be cp free

RAGUNAnoOne · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

I have 500 cps, and I agree that they should be disabled in BwB, because the advantage they give is insane. I even think there should be a vet non-cp campaign.

I would hit agree 100 times if I could to that statement.

KramUzibra · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I want them to remain in Blackwater Blade.

The real problem isnt CP it's the new battle leveling system. These low level players are walking around with vet 15 stats. What ever happened to grind!? Your supposed to get wrecked going up against a vet 16 if your a non vet or low level vet.

Digerati · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

KramUzibra wrote: »

The real problem isnt CP it's the new battle leveling system. These low level players are walking around with vet 15 stats. What ever happened to grind!? Your supposed to get wrecked going up against a vet 16 if your a non vet or low level vet.

You're not supposed to be going up against VR16 players in BwB. It's for level 49s and under.

The problem (read slowly this time) is that a genuine new player, say level 20, goes up against a vet's reroll twink character, also level 20.. Not only does the new player have to overcome being outclassed by a more experience and better equipped character, he also has to overcome the raw power advantage having champion points grants the vet.

Digerati · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

So I guess some people who voted 'I have Champion Points and I want them to remain in Blackwater Blade.' aren't scumbags... They're just not very smart or they don't speak english well enough to understand what we're talking about...

drumbendrum_ESO · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I want them to remain in Blackwater Blade.

While I believe that they should leave them in.

I think something that might help it some is to cap the CP for BwB at 250.

dem0n1k · November 2015

I have Champion Points (not sure how many but I have 2 vet rank chars & I have 3 non-vet chars that I play on BWB). Even though I have decent champion points... I still have low DPS on my non-vet chars.. maybe my builds just suck or something.

I am torn on the issue... on one hand, it makes it interesting because you can read an enemy player's level & rank.. but it might not be a true indicator of their prowess. For example a Level 10 DK with an AP rank of volunteer could still be very powerful with a lot of CP behind him.. even though he will be limited by a single ability bar. A level 40+ char with a low AP rank is far more likely to be a bit noob to PVP... but still ... they might have huge CP... you won't know till you engage.

On the other hand... if everyone in there has huge CP then it does make it pretty much the same as a vet rank campaign.

Sneaky-Snurr · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

Why did I choose this option? Simply because the players aren't on the same 'level' of play due to CPs that offer a lot of useful passives a new player couldn't get their hands on. This has created an obvious discrepancy between the new and existing players.

And like others have stated, the advantages the Champion System offers are pretty much overwhelming as they can either provide significant amount of sustainability, utility or burst damage and add the point that new players will be limited in their gear choices because their funds and crafting are limited compared to existing players who have CPs.
One (no CPs) cannot simply go against a player who has 300+ CPs and come out alive and undefeated.

RAGUNAnoOne · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

Just look at the results so far, I bet if you share this poll to all players ingame the results will be the same the VAST majority think this is unfair to new players and with a few outliers the only people who want them to stay are those who have CPs. Even with that the majority who hate CPs in BwB have CPs the fact that they can use this to there advantage but are still opposed to CPs being in BWB says something .

kevlarto_ESO · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

BWB is not he same any longer, and not as fun as it used to be before CP points came to the game, imho..:(

Hateanthem · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

I have CP and they need removed from BwB. I can also spot the guy/gal that is new to the game because they die super easy and most of what they throw at me is laughable or bounces off.

If its a 1v1 fight I'll usually leave them alone because its so unfair it isn't fun. But I can't really get rid of the CP, because then I'm not competitive with peoples alts

CP is a bad system imo.

Alucardo · November 2015

I don't think the problem is solely champion points. It's a mixture of builds and gear. Vets who have played this game for a while understand the mechanics intimately - they know how to get the most damage out of a combo, know what armour sets to wear, what jewellery, and how much regen to damage ratio they can work with.
Someone walking into PVP for the first time is going to have no idea. Even if there were no CPs, it wouldn't help them in the slightest.

Then you've also got the issue with skills. Currently my stam sorc is level 28 and I STILL don't have Surge or Rally to heal myself. I've ran some cyro town quests to try and get them levelled up faster, but it's just taking forever.
So if I come across a level 47 with no champion points, there's a good chance they might beat me based on the fact they'll have abilities for self sustain which I simply do not. Blessed isn't going to help me when I've got no heals going on.

Let's move onto the actual gear. I can't imagine any true non-vets are running Law of Julianos, Morkuldin, Twice-Born star, Kagrenacs, etc. I usually see them in that disgusting green coloured gear made up of different parts, making them look like a Frankenstein monster. They're going to have a hard time contending with a veteran player in some top-tier set with knowledge of the game and its mechanics, so even if that poor noob had 2,000 champion points, it's not going to save them.

Crafting plays a MASSIVE part now. I'm literally making an entire new set every 2 levels. Why? Because I can see a significant decrease in my stats on the character sheet, and I go from 2 hitting NPCs to 3-4 hits. It's disgusting.
So basically your non-vet char is going to need access to a decent crafter with most traits, lots of gold, and the ability to improve items to purple. Yeah, blue aint gonna cut it any more boys. This is mini-vet now.
I'm not even joking. The difference between blue and purple is huge. I really think some people underestimate how important your armour is now. I duelled a level 36 who was using level 12 gear and wondered why I was doing so much damage.
Honestly, I think this needs to be looked at on non-vet. I feel like I'm playing Crafting Simulator 2k15, spending more time at crafting stations than in PVP.

To put it plainly, the update has opened my eyes a bit. It's not about Champion Points, well barely. It's a lot about skill and gear. CPs obviously help a bit, but they are only a small piece of a bigger problem. Sadly there's no way to fix someone simply being better than you other than to "git gud", as they say.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

They need to make it so that ANY gear you have, even if its lvl 1, scales to V15 (or whatever level battle scaling puts you up to).

I like that you have a bit more theorycrafting ability now then you did back with the old system now that set bonuses and enchants make a difference but changing your gear every few levels is ridiculous and an inventory nightmare.

Having any level (scale like it used to) but keeping the bonuses you get from enchants and set pieces seems like a good compromise between the old system and the new.

Alucardo · November 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

They need to make it so that ANY gear you have, even if its lvl 1, scales to V15 (or whatever level battle scaling puts you up to).

I like that you have a bit more theorycrafting ability now then you did back with the old system now that set bonuses and enchants make a difference but changing your gear every few levels is ridiculous and an inventory nightmare.

Having any level (scale like it used to) but keeping the bonuses you get from enchants and set pieces seems like a good compromise between the old system and the new.

Bloody yes. Not sure if you read my wall of text above you, but I pointed that out also.

Digerati · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't think the problem is solely champion points. It's a mixture of builds and gear. Vets who have played this game for a while understand the mechanics intimately - they know how to get the most damage out of a combo, know what armour sets to wear, what jewellery, and how much regen to damage ratio they can work with.
Someone walking into PVP for the first time is going to have no idea. Even if there were no CPs, it wouldn't help them in the slightest.

Then you've also got the issue with skills. Currently my stam sorc is level 28 and I STILL don't have Surge or Rally to heal myself. I've ran some cyro town quests to try and get them levelled up faster, but it's just taking forever.
So if I come across a level 47 with no champion points, there's a good chance they might beat me based on the fact they'll have abilities for self sustain which I simply do not. Blessed isn't going to help me when I've got no heals going on.

Let's move onto the actual gear. I can't imagine any true non-vets are running Law of Julianos, Morkuldin, Twice-Born star, Kagrenacs, etc. I usually see them in that disgusting green coloured gear made up of different parts, making them look like a Frankenstein monster. They're going to have a hard time contending with a veteran player in some top-tier set with knowledge of the game and its mechanics, so even if that poor noob had 2,000 champion points, it's not going to save them.

Crafting plays a MASSIVE part now. I'm literally making an entire new set every 2 levels. Why? Because I can see a significant decrease in my stats on the character sheet, and I go from 2 hitting NPCs to 3-4 hits. It's disgusting.
So basically your non-vet char is going to need access to a decent crafter with most traits, lots of gold, and the ability to improve items to purple. Yeah, blue aint gonna cut it any more boys. This is mini-vet now.
I'm not even joking. The difference between blue and purple is huge. I really think some people underestimate how important your armour is now. I duelled a level 36 who was using level 12 gear and wondered why I was doing so much damage.
Honestly, I think this needs to be looked at on non-vet. I feel like I'm playing Crafting Simulator 2k15, spending more time at crafting stations than in PVP.

To put it plainly, the update has opened my eyes a bit. It's not about Champion Points, well barely. It's a lot about skill and gear. CPs obviously help a bit, but they are only a small piece of a bigger problem. Sadly there's no way to fix someone simply being better than you other than to "git gud", as they say.

When a new player is beat because their enemy has better gear or has all their skills unlocked or even is just better at the game, the new player can justify this defeat.

I lost because my gear is subpar. I lost because his dodge-roll game is on point. I lost because he spends a lot of time and resources crafting.

^this falls under the "get good" umbrella.

I lost because he has a bunch of champion points and I just don't have access to those.

^this falls under the "game is unfair" umbrella.

Digerati · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

I somewhat enjoy finding upgrades and keeping my gear "current" with gearbags and drops... and I could see the appeal of crafting every once in a while...

Perhaps all gear could scale to be appropriate for your level, but put a cap on it? For example, 5 levels? So, putting on a level 1 piece would scale to be VR10? Would give you incentive to keep your gear "current" but you also wouldn't be totally screwed if you fell behind..

Alucardo · November 2015

Digerati wrote: »

When a new player is beat because their enemy has better gear or has all their skills unlocked or even is just better at the game, the new player can justify this defeat.

I lost because my gear is subpar. I lost because his dodge-roll game is on point. I lost because he spends a lot of time and resources crafting.

^this falls under the "get good" umbrella.

I lost because he has a bunch of champion points and I just don't have access to those.

^this falls under the "game is unfair" umbrella.

Every time someone gets beaten, all I hear is "omg that guy has so many CPs". How do they know? They don't. They're just assuming, and that's a problem.
Last guy I beat in a duel accused me of having more CPs than him. When we exchanged numbers it turned out I basically had 4 more. I'm pretty tired of this debate if I'm quite honest (not aiming that at you, just in general). I reckon if ZOS ran the numbers across BwB, most people would be around the same. There's the odd few with a lot more, but not enough to make a massive difference.
You'll notice I haven't voted yet, because I really don't know what to think any more. I was against it, but I'm not so sure since the update. It changed quite a lot, fixed some old issues, but opened some new ones like this gear thing.

Snowgoons · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

Alucardo wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Instead of removing CPs, I think they should let new players earn CPs even if they are low levels, so basically after lvl 10 when you can first go to Cyrodil, you start earning CPs. Zen themselves wanted to go with advantages/progression, so why on Earth to remove it. If new players earned CPs, they wouldnt leave so easily.

Not really an option unfortunately. By the sounds of it, Veteran ranks will get replaced with essentially CPs. You'll need a certain amount of CPs to wear gear for its required champion level. This means, a low level could potentially be walking around like a hero.

As I mentioned in my other thread, why are you always trying to push some kind of agenda in threads Alucardo?

Why isn't this persons suggestion an option "unfortunately" ? It seems like it would work just fine along with many other suggestions, who are you to say what is and isn't an option lol?

Alucardo wrote: »

Digerati wrote: »

When a new player is beat because their enemy has better gear or has all their skills unlocked or even is just better at the game, the new player can justify this defeat.

I lost because my gear is subpar. I lost because his dodge-roll game is on point. I lost because he spends a lot of time and resources crafting.

^this falls under the "get good" umbrella.

I lost because he has a bunch of champion points and I just don't have access to those.

^this falls under the "game is unfair" umbrella.

Every time someone gets beaten, all I hear is "omg that guy has so many CPs". How do they know? They don't. They're just assuming, and that's a problem.
Last guy I beat in a duel accused me of having more CPs than him. When we exchanged numbers it turned out I basically had 4 more. I'm pretty tired of this debate if I'm quite honest (not aiming that at you, just in general). I reckon if ZOS ran the numbers across BwB, most people would be around the same. There's the odd few with a lot more, but not enough to make a massive difference.
You'll notice I haven't voted yet, because I really don't know what to think any more. I was against it, but I'm not so sure since the update. It changed quite a lot, fixed some old issues, but opened some new ones like this gear thing.

If you haven't voted and don't know what to think anymore, how about stop posting and think about the poll on the first page instead of posting before? People like you love to talk lol. Take some action, this isn't Anook, this is a thread asking you to vote on a topic.

Sigh.

Alucardo · November 2015

Snowgoons wrote: »

As I mentioned in my other thread, why are you always trying to push some kind of agenda in threads Alucardo?

Why isn't this persons suggestion an option "unfortunately" ? It seems like it would work just fine along with many other suggestions, who are you to say what is and isn't an option lol?

Veteran ranks were a placeholder for Champion Points, plain and simple, which means nonvets CANNOT accumulate CPs. If you're too dense to understand that it's not my fault. I'm sorry for trying to provide information. Don't read it if you don't care.

Snowgoons wrote: »

If you haven't voted and don't know what to think anymore, how about stop posting and think about the poll on the first page instead of posting before? People like you love to talk lol. Take some action, this isn't Anook, this is a thread asking you to vote on a topic.

Sigh.

Have you never heard of talking things through to help come to a decision? As whole, this is a forum, and a forum is for discussions which is what I'm doing. Like I said above, if you don't like what I have to say then simply ignore.
I don't like you, so it'd probably be best if you ignored my comments and stopped responding, because I'm on my final warning and I'd rather not waste it on someone like you

Digerati · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

Alucardo wrote: »

Digerati wrote: »

When a new player is beat because their enemy has better gear or has all their skills unlocked or even is just better at the game, the new player can justify this defeat.

I lost because my gear is subpar. I lost because his dodge-roll game is on point. I lost because he spends a lot of time and resources crafting.

^this falls under the "get good" umbrella.

I lost because he has a bunch of champion points and I just don't have access to those.

^this falls under the "game is unfair" umbrella.

Every time someone gets beaten, all I hear is "omg that guy has so many CPs". How do they know? They don't. They're just assuming, and that's a problem.
Last guy I beat in a duel accused me of having more CPs than him. When we exchanged numbers it turned out I basically had 4 more. I'm pretty tired of this debate if I'm quite honest (not aiming that at you, just in general). I reckon if ZOS ran the numbers across BwB, most people would be around the same. There's the odd few with a lot more, but not enough to make a massive difference.
You'll notice I haven't voted yet, because I really don't know what to think any more. I was against it, but I'm not so sure since the update. It changed quite a lot, fixed some old issues, but opened some new ones like this gear thing.

I ran parallel to friends who were new players. Same crafted suit, same level, same food buff... I felt that being a more experienced player was my biggest advantage, however, the fact that I hit significantly harder, use less stamina, have more damage mitigation, and have a bunch of other little perks ON TOP of knowing how to play is just dumb.

Alucardo · November 2015

Digerati wrote: »

I ran parallel to friends who were new players. Same crafted suit, same level, same food buff... I felt that being a more experienced player was my biggest advantage, however, the fact that I hit significantly harder, use less stamina, have more damage mitigation, and have a bunch of other little perks ON TOP of knowing how to play is just dumb.

May I ask how many CPs you have?

Digerati · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

Alucardo wrote: »

Digerati wrote: »

When a new player is beat because their enemy has better gear or has all their skills unlocked or even is just better at the game, the new player can justify this defeat.

I lost because my gear is subpar. I lost because his dodge-roll game is on point. I lost because he spends a lot of time and resources crafting.

^this falls under the "get good" umbrella.

I lost because he has a bunch of champion points and I just don't have access to those.

^this falls under the "game is unfair" umbrella.

Every time someone gets beaten, all I hear is "omg that guy has so many CPs". How do they know? They don't. They're just assuming, and that's a problem.
Last guy I beat in a duel accused me of having more CPs than him. When we exchanged numbers it turned out I basically had 4 more. I'm pretty tired of this debate if I'm quite honest (not aiming that at you, just in general). I reckon if ZOS ran the numbers across BwB, most people would be around the same. There's the odd few with a lot more, but not enough to make a massive difference.
You'll notice I haven't voted yet, because I really don't know what to think any more. I was against it, but I'm not so sure since the update. It changed quite a lot, fixed some old issues, but opened some new ones like this gear thing.

Alucardo wrote: »

Digerati wrote: »

I ran parallel to friends who were new players. Same crafted suit, same level, same food buff... I felt that being a more experienced player was my biggest advantage, however, the fact that I hit significantly harder, use less stamina, have more damage mitigation, and have a bunch of other little perks ON TOP of knowing how to play is just dumb.

May I ask how many CPs you have?

Several.

Deandril · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

If champion points make no difference then why do high CP players cling to them. Let new pvpers have a campaign to learn in without constantly getting wrecked. I have a feeling the players that want them left in can't hang in a vet campaign.

Alucardo · November 2015

Digerati wrote: »

Several.

If you'd rather not discuss it publicly, that's fine. You can message me if you like. I feel that if you're going to create a post to help the removal of Champion Points, along with scenarios, you should at least let me know how many you have that seems to make such a big difference. That's all.

Zlater · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I want them to remain in Blackwater Blade.

Champion points really aren't the difference between a veteran player and a new one. If you want to remove champion points from bwb then you should also remove them from all Pvp. This is because champion points don't scale statically. So a 10% boost by champion points at Vr16, is (usually) the same 10% boost to Dps at lvl40. You must understand that the biggest cause for the power difference between a vet player on an alt, numerically, is the gear, not the champion points. A well geared alt is going to smash you out of the water regardless of how many champion points they have, and when you leave Bwb it's still going to be exactly the same thing that you are experiencing now, but it's going to be even harder because now everyone you face will be better than you. Not even mentioning player skill. I don't mind removing CP's but they must go from all PvP in that case.

Angarato · November 2015

I have Champion Points and I think that they should be removed from Blackwater Blade.

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't think the problem is solely champion points. It's a mixture of builds and gear. Vets who have played this game for a while understand the mechanics intimately - they know how to get the most damage out of a combo, know what armour sets to wear, what jewellery, and how much regen to damage ratio they can work with.
Someone walking into PVP for the first time is going to have no idea. Even if there were no CPs, it wouldn't help them in the slightest.

Then you've also got the issue with skills. Currently my stam sorc is level 28 and I STILL don't have Surge or Rally to heal myself. I've ran some cyro town quests to try and get them levelled up faster, but it's just taking forever.
So if I come across a level 47 with no champion points, there's a good chance they might beat me based on the fact they'll have abilities for self sustain which I simply do not. Blessed isn't going to help me when I've got no heals going on.

Let's move onto the actual gear. I can't imagine any true non-vets are running Law of Julianos, Morkuldin, Twice-Born star, Kagrenacs, etc. I usually see them in that disgusting green coloured gear made up of different parts, making them look like a Frankenstein monster. They're going to have a hard time contending with a veteran player in some top-tier set with knowledge of the game and its mechanics, so even if that poor noob had 2,000 champion points, it's not going to save them.

Crafting plays a MASSIVE part now. I'm literally making an entire new set every 2 levels. Why? Because I can see a significant decrease in my stats on the character sheet, and I go from 2 hitting NPCs to 3-4 hits. It's disgusting.
So basically your non-vet char is going to need access to a decent crafter with most traits, lots of gold, and the ability to improve items to purple. Yeah, blue aint gonna cut it any more boys. This is mini-vet now.
I'm not even joking. The difference between blue and purple is huge. I really think some people underestimate how important your armour is now. I duelled a level 36 who was using level 12 gear and wondered why I was doing so much damage.
Honestly, I think this needs to be looked at on non-vet. I feel like I'm playing Crafting Simulator 2k15, spending more time at crafting stations than in PVP.

To put it plainly, the update has opened my eyes a bit. It's not about Champion Points, well barely. It's a lot about skill and gear. CPs obviously help a bit, but they are only a small piece of a bigger problem. Sadly there's no way to fix someone simply being better than you other than to "git gud", as they say.

gear helps a ton I agree, vets have better access and knowledge of those things I agree
HOWEVER. new players CAN get them. the option exist for them to get/wear those items. guildies/friends/farming and asking zone chat, researching whatever they have the option to get them. THEY HAVE NO OPTION TO GET CP. its impossible to get cp on your first character in the non-vet campaign. you have to be v1 to start getting them and then you cant go to non-vet untill you make a new character. that is the difference.

on my first character i was running around in frankenstein gear till lvl 30ish. i joined a guild and got some info. farmed the ingrediants and had a guildie show me where to make a set of gear. and he helped me with blacksmithing/woodworking. so from 30 to 50 i had a set of gear on my first character. but no matter how prepared i am i cannot get CP. its off limits and the difference is very very noticable. the resources, the defenses, the passives like riposte, unchained, 12%! extra crit or spell crit that is huge and if you think it doesnt you're delusional