whats this elitist first post? OMG

i am too vr16 with gold gear and its the least what i care if i can be degraded to lvl 50. i would be happy degraded to lvl1 if it fix lag

Geemarc wrote: »

I'd like to change my answer to Yes I would quit if this is the method they implement.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

@Geemarc Why? What don't you like about this proposal?

Enodoc wrote: »

Geemarc wrote: »

I'd like to change my answer to Yes I would quit if this is the method they implement.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

@Geemarc Why? What don't you like about this proposal?

I don't like the fact that it removes all progression and achievement from playing the game (for me). I enjoy making new characters, progressing them through the game and levels and gearing them and the sense of achievement when I'm finished. With this new proposed method that is completely removed. If you have the 160 champion points it's just an 8 hour level to max, making all the rest of the content optional and pointless, other than to collect sky shards. Optional content just means that the majority of people won't do it after their initial completion or if it becomes out dated.

That's the difference between me and other players I guess, I enjoy the journey to max level and the satisfaction from doing it. I don't want everything given to me for doing very little. This game has held my attention a lot longer than most MMOs (with the exception of UO, DAoC and WoW pre-WotLK) for those reasons. It was not just about being max level and gearing like so many other MMOs.

When you hit max level what is there really to do? Grind out dungeons for your monster helm sets and pledges, PvP (which is horrendously laggy on the PS4 atm) and trials (that most people find obsolete).

A lot of people that wanted the removal of veteran levels just want an easier/quicker leveling experience (which is fair enough, it's just not me). I've also read posts about people wanting to turn all BoP gear into BoE gear, further removing the need to actually play the game.

My ideal solution would have been to keep veteran levels or rename them 50-65. Opening up the game world by removing the restrictions of Cadwell Silver and gold and battle leveling players in each zone (just like Orsinium). Allowing players to progress through the game after the main story in any order. Further increase the amount of experience gained from questing, dungeons, delves, dolmens etc to bring the experience gained on par with grinding (making it just as rewarding for playing the game as grinding mobs). If the time to level is still to high for the majority of players then modify the experience requirement as necessary. If they wanted to go a step further remove Cadwell Silver and Gold completely and add alliance based quests in the enemy zones instead of playing the regions through from the enemies point of view.

This is my opinion and I realise that other people have different wants from this game. I was just hoping a compromising solution would be found that didn't completely gut the leveling progression.

Geemarc wrote: »

My ideal solution would have been to keep veteran levels or rename them 50-65. Opening up the game world by removing the restrictions of Cadwell Silver and gold and battle leveling players in each zone (just like Orsinium). Allowing players to progress through the game after the main story in any order. Further increase the amount of experience gained from questing, dungeons, delves, dolmens etc to bring the experience gained on par with grinding (making it just as rewarding for playing the game as grinding mobs). If the time to level is still to high for the majority of players then modify the experience requirement as necessary. If they wanted to go a step further remove Cadwell Silver and Gold completely and add alliance based quests in the enemy zones instead of playing the regions through from the enemies point of view.

This is my opinion and I realise that other people have different wants from this game. I was just hoping a compromising solution would be found that didn't completely gut the leveling progression.

I wouldn't be against that either. Although I feel they would be more successful dispersing the XP so that you have 1-80 instead of 1-65 (i.e. take 51-65 and make it more levels). people simply enjoy more frequent milestones...one of the common complaints about VR in itself was the much more drastic XP spread between levels. making it 30 levels instead of 16 would solve that a bit.

In all honesty, it's not as much the "VR" as its just the whole elder game post 50. it was clunky, forced you into a mold...you WILL do Solo PvE from vr1 to vr12 or whatever, then you WILL do group only PvE from vr 12 to vr16...and if you like PvP too bad, you won't get enough XP to level anyways, so your forced back into...SOLO! from 1-12.

The addition of the CP points was an interesting change for me, and I liked it. I've played a system like this before in other games (Diablo3 was the most recent), and though I initially was against it, It eventually grew on me. your focus simply shifts...the CP will always be there for all your toons, so they are less of a barometer of your characters growth, and your focus then shifts to gear selection, or skills acquisition, etc.

I do think they need to be careful about how much stuff they actually "scale". Oblivion had that problem...everything scaled so tightly, that you could just ignore any concept of character growth, and complete the story by lvl 3 with starter gear. it was horrible. Players do need milestones and a concept of character development and gates to progression...gates that are achievable. Gear scaling concerns me a bit. I understand scaling areas, but gear? What in the world are we actually trying to do post 50? the whole idea of an elder game is measurable progress once you hit level cap. That's why it's called ELDER or END GAME as opposed to middle game or halfway through game.

Which is why im not opposed to just a straight leveling scheme...as long as they change silver/gold. I'm also not opposed to just having CP...as long as there is a way to measure your progress. 1-80 is fine, CP isn't bad, if done right. and DON'T scale everything, please. I don't want an Oblivion Online. and I'd prefer high level zones to remain high level zones...walk my lvl 1 character into Reapers March and start playing there? no thank you. It would actually be better to scale high level toons DOWN in those areas. That way my Veteran character (since there's no VR any longer, guess we can't call them VR characters) can play with my buddy's lvl 10 character in the lvl 10 zone, and actually have it interesting to play...but my buddy's lvl 10 knows that he has to level up to get to the higher zones.

I ramble on, but the point is there. either system is fine, AS LONG AS THEY FIX THE OTHER THINGS THAT BROKE ELDER GAME PLAY. it wasn't just the VR....the VR was really a bad paint job on a broken toy.

Geemarc wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Geemarc wrote: »

I'd like to change my answer to Yes I would quit if this is the method they implement.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…

1. We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)
2. The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.
3. When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.
4. To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:

• We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)
• When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.
• We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

@Geemarc Why? What don't you like about this proposal?

I don't like the fact that it removes all progression and achievement from playing the game (for me). I enjoy making new characters, progressing them through the game and levels and gearing them and the sense of achievement when I'm finished. With this new proposed method that is completely removed. If you have the 160 champion points it's just an 8 hour level to max, making all the rest of the content optional and pointless, other than to collect sky shards. Optional content just means that the majority of people won't do it after their initial completion or if it becomes out dated.

That's the difference between me and other players I guess, I enjoy the journey to max level and the satisfaction from doing it. I don't want everything given to me for doing very little. This game has held my attention a lot longer than most MMOs (with the exception of UO, DAoC and WoW pre-WotLK) for those reasons. It was not just about being max level and gearing like so many other MMOs.

When you hit max level what is there really to do? Grind out dungeons for your monster helm sets and pledges, PvP (which is horrendously laggy on the PS4 atm) and trials (that most people find obsolete).

A lot of people that wanted the removal of veteran levels just want an easier/quicker leveling experience (which is fair enough, it's just not me). I've also read posts about people wanting to turn all BoP gear into BoE gear, further removing the need to actually play the game.

My ideal solution would have been to keep veteran levels or rename them 50-65. Opening up the game world by removing the restrictions of Cadwell Silver and gold and battle leveling players in each zone (just like Orsinium). Allowing players to progress through the game after the main story in any order. Further increase the amount of experience gained from questing, dungeons, delves, dolmens etc to bring the experience gained on par with grinding (making it just as rewarding for playing the game as grinding mobs). If the time to level is still to high for the majority of players then modify the experience requirement as necessary. If they wanted to go a step further remove Cadwell Silver and Gold completely and add alliance based quests in the enemy zones instead of playing the regions through from the enemies point of view.

This is my opinion and I realise that other people have different wants from this game. I was just hoping a compromising solution would be found that didn't completely gut the leveling progression.

i agree with your post. especially on the BoP, sure make is BoA (bind on account) im fine with that either you still hae to do content but you get more out of grinding the vMSA. i would like to add to improve the rewards in cawell's silver and gold. like getting blue and maybe even some purple ( not to many like max 8 each area) cause let's face it. who even uses green gear past vet one exept maybe new players who with this system get beter acces to decent gear without having to buy them.

I'm out of here the second the Black Desert headstart begins. I used to love this game, and I have over 3300 hours of playtime, but the game has unfortunately turned in to something completely undesirable to me and it just keeps going further in that direction.

We wait a year for even simple balance tweaks, performance gets worse with every major "patch", there's more and more to grind just to stay statistically competitive and now they're replacing the VR system with an even worse grind.

I've given up on this game, and I don't care what they do anymore.

I left the first time because I hated the VR levels and the requirement to go through the other factions zones on the same toon.

I came back with BTP under the impression that VR levels would soon be gone. I'm still waiting. The only reason I'm still here is Orsinium and when I've seen most of that content I'm off again.

My issue is that I'm an Alt-a-holic but I hate grinding. I've got 1 toon to VR16 and another to VR1. I get bored playing the same character day after day but it's such a timesink to get to VR16 with my playstyle that I have no desire to do it again. So I'm stuck with a main I'm bored with and a Orc Alt doing the new DLC stuff.

If VR were removed I could level several toons to max and be able to swap and change as the mood took me. The current system hinders rather than helps the way I like to play so I'm taking another break once my ESO+ runs out.

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

I want the game to be more sandbox and Orsinium shows they are making some steps in at least making new zones feel like a classic elder scrolls game where levels really don't mean a thing except separating players.

removing vet makes the game less like a sandbox... you are all the sudden full power?

i'm looking it at a different way then you. let me explain first you are lvl 49 with the power level you are at. then you get lvl 50 and you suddenly increase power by insane amounts?

wayfarerx wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

i'm looking it at a different way then you. let me explain first you are lvl 49 with the power level you are at. then you get lvl 50 and you suddenly increase power by insane amounts?

What's sudden about it? If it's your first character then you just start gaining CP. If it's your second or third then they've had the account's CP all along, now you're just earning it on that character too.

difference in gear

The idea that better gear will drop with more champion points is absolutely ludicrous.

Neverwinter did the same thing, and look where that got them. They reached the point where content was so difficult that you couldn't complete the content to upgrade out of your current gear lol. Gear needs to be behind the content itself and it needs to be completeable, not some artificial play more or get behind mechanic.

Geemarc wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

I want the game to be more sandbox and Orsinium shows they are making some steps in at least making new zones feel like a classic elder scrolls game where levels really don't mean a thing except separating players.

removing vet makes the game less like a sandbox... you are all the sudden full power?

How's that again? Right now we have normal -> silver -> gold -> craglorn -> PvP/Orisinium/whatever. With no VR we have normal -> silver/gold/craglorn/PvP/Orisinium/whatever. How is that less like a sandbox?

Also, full power? Do you get undaunted 9 / alliance rank 50 / 200 skyshards automatically on hitting 50?

Removing veteran levels does not necessarily mean that they plan on opening up end game zones, that was not mentions in the post by RichLambert. They do not need to remove veteran ranks to do that, it could be done without removing veteran levels and be just as sandboxy. Once you hit level 50 what reason other than collecting a few sky shards would there be to go into the other areas? None..

Well I like some of the zones so I'd go back to them, I just don't want to have to grind all 10 of them.

Geemarc wrote: »

What power does alliance rank 50 give you other than a few skill points?

Admittedly not much, but it's not used to gate anything like gear either.

Geemarc wrote: »

Undaunted rank 9 is ridiculously quick compared to assault/support. After rank 7 assault and support give no benefit outside Cyrodiil. Leveling assault and support skills is even more of a grind than veteran levels. Maybe they should reduce the AP requirement for that by 75% as well.

Well, if I run vWGT at v16 with undaunted 4 and AR 2, I get a v16 helm drop that is pretty useful even if I then max out undaunted and AR. But if I run it at v2 and get a v2 helm I outlevel it quite soon. VR takes long enough to be a pain but is just fast enough to make early vet ranks feel like a waste.

wayfarerx wrote: »

Geemarc wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

I want the game to be more sandbox and Orsinium shows they are making some steps in at least making new zones feel like a classic elder scrolls game where levels really don't mean a thing except separating players.

removing vet makes the game less like a sandbox... you are all the sudden full power?

How's that again? Right now we have normal -> silver -> gold -> craglorn -> PvP/Orisinium/whatever. With no VR we have normal -> silver/gold/craglorn/PvP/Orisinium/whatever. How is that less like a sandbox?

Also, full power? Do you get undaunted 9 / alliance rank 50 / 200 skyshards automatically on hitting 50?

Removing veteran levels does not necessarily mean that they plan on opening up end game zones, that was not mentions in the post by RichLambert. They do not need to remove veteran ranks to do that, it could be done without removing veteran levels and be just as sandboxy. Once you hit level 50 what reason other than collecting a few sky shards would there be to go into the other areas? None..

Well I like some of the zones so I'd go back to them, I just don't want to have to grind all 10 of them.

Geemarc wrote: »

What power does alliance rank 50 give you other than a few skill points?

Admittedly not much, but it's not used to gate anything like gear either.

Geemarc wrote: »

Undaunted rank 9 is ridiculously quick compared to assault/support. After rank 7 assault and support give no benefit outside Cyrodiil. Leveling assault and support skills is even more of a grind than veteran levels. Maybe they should reduce the AP requirement for that by 75% as well.

Well, if I run vWGT at v16 with undaunted 4 and AR 2, I get a v16 helm drop that is pretty useful even if I then max out undaunted and AR. But if I run it at v2 and get a v2 helm I outlevel it quite soon. VR takes long enough to be a pain but is just fast enough to make early vet ranks feel like a waste.

How will that be any different with the new CP system for new players? If they get an item that is CP 20 requirement they will be wanting to replace it just as quickly..

Geemarc wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Geemarc wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

I want the game to be more sandbox and Orsinium shows they are making some steps in at least making new zones feel like a classic elder scrolls game where levels really don't mean a thing except separating players.

removing vet makes the game less like a sandbox... you are all the sudden full power?

How's that again? Right now we have normal -> silver -> gold -> craglorn -> PvP/Orisinium/whatever. With no VR we have normal -> silver/gold/craglorn/PvP/Orisinium/whatever. How is that less like a sandbox?

Also, full power? Do you get undaunted 9 / alliance rank 50 / 200 skyshards automatically on hitting 50?

Removing veteran levels does not necessarily mean that they plan on opening up end game zones, that was not mentions in the post by RichLambert. They do not need to remove veteran ranks to do that, it could be done without removing veteran levels and be just as sandboxy. Once you hit level 50 what reason other than collecting a few sky shards would there be to go into the other areas? None..

Well I like some of the zones so I'd go back to them, I just don't want to have to grind all 10 of them.

Geemarc wrote: »

What power does alliance rank 50 give you other than a few skill points?

Admittedly not much, but it's not used to gate anything like gear either.

Geemarc wrote: »

Undaunted rank 9 is ridiculously quick compared to assault/support. After rank 7 assault and support give no benefit outside Cyrodiil. Leveling assault and support skills is even more of a grind than veteran levels. Maybe they should reduce the AP requirement for that by 75% as well.

Well, if I run vWGT at v16 with undaunted 4 and AR 2, I get a v16 helm drop that is pretty useful even if I then max out undaunted and AR. But if I run it at v2 and get a v2 helm I outlevel it quite soon. VR takes long enough to be a pain but is just fast enough to make early vet ranks feel like a waste.

How will that be any different with the new CP system for new players? If they get an item that is CP 20 requirement they will be wanting to replace it just as quickly..

Well I agree with you there. I would much rather they go more horizontal with the gear and not gate it by CP. Sounds like they will be gating on CP with their current plan so that's disappointing. But at least the proposed changes make the grind much more bearable for alts.