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Wrecking Blow isn't OP. The lack of viable options is.

Alucardo
Alucardo
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Disclaimer
This post may be kinda long. It contains minor rants, my take on wrecking blow, and some solutions to make stamina builds more versatile. Please, grab a drink and some popcorn while you read.
If you have the attention span of a goldfish, you should probably leave now, but have a nice day all the same.

Right, disclaimer out of the way, let's get into it
You've just obliterated someone with the good ol' crit rush, wrecking blow, executioner combo on your stam sorc and you're feeling good.. and then the salty whispers begin to flood in

"ur just a wrecking blow spammer l2p" - I killed you, twice. Perhaps you should l2p.
"do you know how to do anything but wb omg" - No. No, I don't.
"ur boring and ur play style is boring" - It's pretty affective though, right?
"1000 CPs, WB and no skill m8" - I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you from the ground. Btw, there's a cap now.

Basically I've changed the wording of the whispers I get, but they are pretty close to the real thing and my responses to them.

As the title subtly suggests, Wrecking blow isn't OP, by any means. It's extremely slow, you have to dance around your target to position it correctly, and it's pretty much useless in a 1v1 against someone who knows what they're doing.
It is however dangerous in a group when you're being bombarded by stam sorcs and DKs with wrecking blow. They won't mind playing tennis with your body. But that's the same with every skill.
I mention stam sorcs and stam DKs because they are the biggest offenders. Sure, there are Nightblades and Templars that use it, but not all.. why? Because they have options. A nightblade can make use of surprise attack, and a Templar will jab you to death. Those who don't wish to use their class abilities, will opt for wrecking blow.

Looking at stam sorcs, they have stamina based buffs and some pretty nice passives to help them out, but no offensive skills based on weapon damage/stamina. The most affective skills for them are wrecking blow and steel tornado. What a coincidence, these are the abilities people cry about the most.
Stam DKs are somewhat in the same boat there. Sure, they have stamina based DoTs, but you can't rely on them for damage when things get purged or cloaked in the blink of an eye. A direct damage ability is required. For lack of a stamina whip, they need to rely on weapon abilities, just like the stam sorc. So we're back to the wrecking blow again.
That's a pretty large population of people using this ability, so of course it's going to come across as "spammed" and "OP" when everyone is smashing your face in with this effective skill.
Personally, if you gave me a stam whip, I would kiss wrecking blow goodbye forever. Until then, get rekt.

OK, so I have a couple of solutions, if you will.

Solution Uno - Stam morphs for Sorc and DK DD abilities
For sorc, this could be a stam frag (though I find that idea a little silly). I've always thought a lightning whip would be badass.
For DK, a stam whip.

And that's pretty much it. Obviously details would need to be worked out, but the base idea is that simple.

Solution Dos - Stop making a stams life revolve around 2h
When you think about creating a stamina build, the first thing that pops into your mind is a 2h weapon. Why? Wrecking blow and Rally. This idea is a little more complex than the first, but could provide access to more versatile builds.

1. Add weapon ultimates
2. Increase Mages Guild and Fighters Guild skills by 1.
2.1. Add a skill to the Fighter's Guild at rank 4 that grants Major Brutality (20% weapon damage) and heals you for X every Y seconds (Yes, exactly like Entropy for mages)
2.2. Add whatever skill to Mages Guild to fill in the blank
3. Make some kind of useful DD dual wield skill. Something like base damage with a tiny DoT at the end. Just make it as simple as possible.
4. Amp the damage on Cleave, but reduce the bleeding damage dealt. This skill might actually be useful.

So we've covered a few things in this scenario.

1. Made a brutality buff available to stam builds in the FG tree, so they can gain it easily enough no matter their level or what weapon they use, just like Mages can do now. This might help promote different builds instead of just always relying on a 2h.
2. Added some simple DD abilities to both the 2h and dual wield tree. I'm sure some would find these more useful than the extremely slow wrecking blow. Not all would, but some. The idea is to limit the amount of WB heroes running around Cyrodiil, not annihilate them.

Fin.
  • Jitterbug
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    Hi, everyone. We understand that people are going to disagree from time to time, but please remember to keep your comments respectful at all times on our forums, even when you disagree with others. Insults or other disruptive behavior do not help further discussion and can move a thread off topic quickly. We encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they are constructively stated when doing so, as this will help keep the discussion on track. Thank you!
  • redspecter23
    redspecter23
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    I have to agree that the issue is a lack of options. One could argue whether or not a stam whip is really what DK's need but they certainly need something to fill the gap unless the population enjoys seeing wrecking blow all the time.
  • Alucardo
    Alucardo
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    Jitterbug wrote: »
    Hi, everyone. We understand that people are going to disagree from time to time, but please remember to keep your comments respectful at all times on our forums, even when you disagree with others. Insults or other disruptive behavior do not help further discussion and can move a thread off topic quickly. We encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they are constructively stated when doing so, as this will help keep the discussion on track. Thank you!

    Haha, we haven't gotten there yet bud. Give it time
  • Jitterbug
    Jitterbug
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    Alucardo wrote: »
    Jitterbug wrote: »
    Hi, everyone. We understand that people are going to disagree from time to time, but please remember to keep your comments respectful at all times on our forums, even when you disagree with others. Insults or other disruptive behavior do not help further discussion and can move a thread off topic quickly. We encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they are constructively stated when doing so, as this will help keep the discussion on track. Thank you!

    Haha, we haven't gotten there yet bud. Give it time

    just saving time
  • Shadesofkin
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    I'm not convinced a Stam Whip is necessary, but I do think we need other options beyond Wrecking Blow, maybe Stam Whip would do it...maybe an all new ability. Who knows?
    @shadesofkin -NA Server.
    Tier 2 Player.
    MagDK Main forever (even in the bad times)
  • Alucardo
    Alucardo
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    I'm not convinced a Stam Whip is necessary, but I do think we need other options beyond Wrecking Blow, maybe Stam Whip would do it...maybe an all new ability. Who knows?

    This is why I wanted to provide a couple of solutions - one of them not actually changing class abilities. I don't mind either way, just as long as there's more options.
  • redspecter23
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    I'm not convinced a Stam Whip is necessary, but I do think we need other options beyond Wrecking Blow, maybe Stam Whip would do it...maybe an all new ability. Who knows?

    A useful whip for a stamina build would probably have to turn it to physical damage instead of fire and have some sort of kicker added to it. If it remains fire damage, the kicker would have to be pretty good for it to be better than WB unless they artificially jack up the damage to compensate. At that point it may be so different to whip that it might as well just be a new ability added to another tree (thieves guild or dark brotherhood skill maybe)
  • mr_wazzabi
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    I agree with everything you just said.

    Dw, aside from steel tornado has weak skills.

    Rapid strikes is a weaker version of biting jabs.

    Twin strikes is useless.

    Flying blade is a joke. Really weak ranged attack, but dw only players are forced to use it for major brutality.

    Quick cloak will actually be useful if it was a shield against ALL damage, not just aoe.

    So all stam based characters are forced to rely on 2h.

    I love 2h and wb, but would like to see more variety out there.
    Bosmer Stamina NB
    Altmer Magicka TEMP
    Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
    Altmer Magicka NB
    Breton Magicka Sorc
    Redguard Stam Sorc
    Max CP
  • Alucardo
    Alucardo
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    A useful whip for a stamina build would probably have to turn it to physical damage instead of fire and have some sort of kicker added to it. If it remains fire damage, the kicker would have to be pretty good for it to be better than WB unless they artificially jack up the damage to compensate. At that point it may be so different to whip that it might as well just be a new ability added to another tree (thieves guild or dark brotherhood skill maybe)
    I'd imagine it'd be just like the other Ardent Flame stam morphs - they scale off max stamina/weapon damage.
  • Shadesofkin
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    Alucardo wrote: »
    I'm not convinced a Stam Whip is necessary, but I do think we need other options beyond Wrecking Blow, maybe Stam Whip would do it...maybe an all new ability. Who knows?

    This is why I wanted to provide a couple of solutions - one of them not actually changing class abilities. I don't mind either way, just as long as there's more options.

    Yeah, more options are definitely needed, that much I totes agree on.
    @shadesofkin -NA Server.
    Tier 2 Player.
    MagDK Main forever (even in the bad times)
  • redspecter23
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    Alucardo wrote: »
    A useful whip for a stamina build would probably have to turn it to physical damage instead of fire and have some sort of kicker added to it. If it remains fire damage, the kicker would have to be pretty good for it to be better than WB unless they artificially jack up the damage to compensate. At that point it may be so different to whip that it might as well just be a new ability added to another tree (thieves guild or dark brotherhood skill maybe)
    I'd imagine it'd be just like the other Ardent Flame stam morphs - they scale off max stamina/weapon damage.

    I'm sure it would but if it were fire damage, then if you spec into mighty in the champion tree you don't boost it (unless I'm misunderstanding) and a DK fire mage specced in fire might actually deal more damage with it than a stam user.
  • Artjuh90
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    i think dk actually has more abilty's that are even more useless then magicka whip on a stam dk. maybe to something about those cause magicka dk isn't in a very good position aswell. as for a stam sorc abilty i can't give you a good anwser cause thats the only class i don't play.
    and i do think it's strange that cleave has a higher bleed damage then a instant damage, because lets face it if you get swung by a giant hammer to your head the first hit to your head is going to hurt not the bleeding after it :P
  • Jitterbug
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    Alucardo wrote: »
    A useful whip for a stamina build would probably have to turn it to physical damage instead of fire and have some sort of kicker added to it. If it remains fire damage, the kicker would have to be pretty good for it to be better than WB unless they artificially jack up the damage to compensate. At that point it may be so different to whip that it might as well just be a new ability added to another tree (thieves guild or dark brotherhood skill maybe)
    I'd imagine it'd be just like the other Ardent Flame stam morphs - they scale off max stamina/weapon damage.

    but wb does like 90.000 dps
  • Artjuh90
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    ps i want to add btw that wrenking blow does more damage then reverse strike even when the enemy is in execute range ...
  • Alucardo
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    Jitterbug wrote: »
    but wb does like 90.000 dps
    Lol unlikely. You're hitting once every second, and if your target runs through you, you have to turn around, position it correctly and try to land it again. It's the most awkward skill ever.
    Edited by Alucardo on November 20, 2015 1:30AM
  • Alucardo
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    Artjuh90 wrote: »
    ps i want to add btw that wrenking blow does more damage then reverse strike even when the enemy is in execute range ...

    It does, but Executioner is nice and fast, and you can easily add in light attacks between each one very quickly
  • Jitterbug
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    Artjuh90 wrote: »
    ps i want to add btw that wrenking blow does more damage then reverse strike even when the enemy is in execute range ...

    Like I said... 90.000
  • Shadesofkin
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    Artjuh90 wrote: »
    i think dk actually has more abilty's that are even more useless then magicka whip on a stam dk. maybe to something about those cause magicka dk isn't in a very good position aswell. as for a stam sorc abilty i can't give you a good anwser cause thats the only class i don't play.
    and i do think it's strange that cleave has a higher bleed damage then a instant damage, because lets face it if you get swung by a giant hammer to your head the first hit to your head is going to hurt not the bleeding after it :P

    Seriously.

    Inhale/Morphs...was great til it was nerfed to a max of 3

    Spiked Armor/Morphs...there are other skills that do the buff and prove slightly more useful. Most players never look back once they've unlocked the other Draconic Power skills.

    Green Dragonsblood: no longer even remotely go-to and really should provide some stamina back instead of just Fort (since you know...there are absolutely 0 Stamina return skills in any other tree, meanwhile Magikca has more than a couple).

    And the list could go on.
    @shadesofkin -NA Server.
    Tier 2 Player.
    MagDK Main forever (even in the bad times)
  • Artjuh90
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    yep the point i wanted to make. i don't feel like whip should go stamina i think there should just be skills replaced like inferno, ash cloud (cause it is useless now after the nerfs) or inhale.
    or you could make stone fist a instant cast damaging morph were it damage is based of stamina. you never hear something about that one. but then again people do copy a whole lot from others as far as i see in the game and on the forums.
  • Stikato
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    Perfect explanation of this situation OP, and great suggestions for improvements.

    Got rage tells for like 20 min the other night for WB... It's like, well what else am I supposed to do, I didn't design the game. I'm a sorc give me some options, I'd much rather use DW (single target) or 1h shield but I have no interest in being an AP piñata.
    Mordimus - Stam Sorc
  • Jitterbug
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    Stikato wrote: »
    I'd much rather use DW (single target) or 1h shield but I have no interest in being an AP piñata.

    It's so true it made me reroll
  • Swindy
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    mr_wazzabi wrote: »
    I agree with everything you just said.

    Dw, aside from steel tornado has weak skills.

    Rapid strikes is a weaker version of biting jabs.

    Twin strikes is useless.

    Flying blade is a joke. Really weak ranged attack, but dw only players are forced to use it for major brutality.

    Quick cloak will actually be useful if it was a shield against ALL damage, not just aoe.

    So all stam based characters are forced to rely on 2h.

    I love 2h and wb, but would like to see more variety out there.

    I'm the opposite of yourself, yet we agree.
    I strongly dislike 2H...
    but brawler in mobs, WB in Pvp, Rally for the 20% plus heals...and the execute if you can live without Mage light.
    The only reason this is my close range melee bar is because dw, what every stamblade wants to have, has no brutality or heal or stun or shield abilities.
    I'm sorry but throwing a dart that warns your opponent you're coming and doesn't offer healing or group damage is just silly ZOS.
    And quick cloak only for aoe?...wtf is that for?
    Tornado rocks, but cannot compensate for the above advantages only available in the 2H tree.

    I'm so glad someone else stated that strikes is just a dialed down jabs.

    And I'm probably the only stamblade that doesn't run cloak or surprise...
    Alucardo wrote: »
    Jitterbug wrote: »
    but wb does like 90.000 dps
    Lol unlikely. You're hitting once every second, and if your target runs through you, you have to turn around, position it correctly and try to land it again. It's the most awkward skill ever.
    Exactly!
    I kill far more rolling out to snipe range, and/or with spammed ambush & light attacks, than WB...against anyone who can play, WB is very simple to avoid 1v1.
    Edited by Swindy on November 20, 2015 1:51AM
    II Swindy II

    Australian on Xbox NA (ex EU)
  • ColoursYouHave
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    Completely agree with this post. I started a stam sorc a while ago, and while I actually enjoyed the play style quite a bit, I pretty much stopped playing her because I hated having to use WB. Personally, I think a stamina morph of crystal frags is quite doable. Scale it off stamina/weapon damage, make it close ranged, reduce the damage and remove any cast time, and instead of launching a projectile it just attacks the enemy with a sword made of whatever the heck the crystal frag projectile is made of.
  • Shadesofkin
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    Artjuh90 wrote: »
    yep the point i wanted to make. i don't feel like whip should go stamina i think there should just be skills replaced like inferno, ash cloud (cause it is useless now after the nerfs) or inhale.
    or you could make stone fist a instant cast damaging morph were it damage is based of stamina. you never hear something about that one. but then again people do copy a whole lot from others as far as i see in the game and on the forums.

    I like Inferno, but I get what you're saying.

    Ash Cloud should totes be a damage reducer, I've mentioned that in a few threads.

    I think Stone Fist and its morphs are ok, but I want the heal with Obsidian Shard to be higher definitely. Make it a go-to heal skill for the DK Earth Priest build.
    @shadesofkin -NA Server.
    Tier 2 Player.
    MagDK Main forever (even in the bad times)
  • Artjuh90
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    stone giant (morph) kinda useless though
  • Vangy
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    @Alucardo man those pms u get are pretty timid. The ones I get can be summariesed 80% into these few words

    1. F****ing
    2. Noob
    3. Spammer
    4. Wb
    5. S***
    6. CP

    I agree 100% with ur post though. No options for mah poor stam dk and of ur getting killed by Wb spammer maybe you should l2p instead lol.
    (2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
    (2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
    (2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
    (1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
    CP: 610 and counting

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz
  • Alucardo
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    Vangy wrote: »
    @Alucardo man those pms u get are pretty timid. The ones I get can be summariesed 80% into these few words

    1. F****ing
    2. Noob
    3. Spammer
    4. Wb
    5. S***
    6. CP

    I agree 100% with ur post though. No options for mah poor stam dk and of ur getting killed by Wb spammer maybe you should l2p instead lol.

    Haha ouch! Like I said, I reworded them slightly so the post was more PG friendly ;)
  • Swindy
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    Vangy wrote: »
    @Alucardo man those pms u get are pretty timid. The ones I get can be summariesed 80% into these few words

    1. F****ing
    2. Noob
    3. Spammer
    4. Wb
    5. S***
    6. CP

    I agree 100% with ur post though. No options for mah poor stam dk and of ur getting killed by Wb spammer maybe you should l2p instead lol.

    If you replace 4. with Crystal Frags that's my mental process every time a sorc spam-burns my butt lol.
    II Swindy II

    Australian on Xbox NA (ex EU)
  • usmcjdking
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    There isn't anything wrong with any of the skills.

    The relentless spamming due to no caps and inability to use any other skills other than stam/magicka per your build is what's wrong. WB spam is just a symptom of the larger issue.

    People should be defensively punished for dumping everything into offensive stats. But it appears ZOS disagrees.
    Edited by usmcjdking on November 20, 2015 2:22AM
    0331
    0602
  • Springt-Über-Zwerge
    Springt-Über-Zwerge
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    You can always use the first 2 abilites from s&b for singletarget dps which is pretty nice and with light attack weaving its equal to wb dps wise because its not easy to avoid the damage, slow, debuffs and combines with reverbating bash its really effective. but yea I agree there need to be more options for offensive stamina skills
    PC,EU, EP
    Der-über-Zwerge-springt (Argonian, Magplar), Surtur Velothi (Dunmer, Magdk), Jaqene H'ghar (Imperial, Stamblade), Puppyslayer (Orc, Stamdk), Dagoth Era (Dunmer, Magblade), Æthmon Trevas (Altmer, Magsorc), Der-Zuletzt-Lacht (Argonian, Magden), Sir-Lanzeflott (Redguard, Stamplar)
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