Why Templars are the worst designed class in ESO

JaJaLuka · November 2015

Kammakazi wrote: »

Where does this begin and where does it end?

Edit: I like Templars, harder to play but fairly balanced in my opinion. Except perhaps that sweep ultimate, that is just on another level of crap

Khaos_Bane · November 2015

Flameheart wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

Maybe because Templar is a HEALER class? what do you want? have a healer with a NB/Sorc damage numbers? with cloak, crystal fragments and emperor buffs? you want the MOAB of Call of Duty too? ¬¬

Since the damage reduction patch, at least in PVP, Templar class is completely competitive and useful....in proper hands obviously....

Congratulations at completely missing the point of ESO, very well done. There should be no healer class, that's the point of the game. Any class should be able to heal and the resto staff tree needs an insta cast heal, period.Put BOL in the reto tree and improve the rest of the Templar skills to make them useful.

I heal with my Templar, my NB, my Sorc and even my DK. The situations where BoL might give you an advantage in PvE are very manageable. In truth Healing Ward + Mutagen + Healing Springs is everything you will ever need...but you are right, there is no healer class in ESO, because every class is able to heal any content.

Templar a healer class...I will remember that the next time I will do 10k single target support dps as the group healer in healing gear and hybrid CP spread...

Correct, I have healed with all classes except the DK, I just can't get into that class for some reason. I find it fun healing with each of the classes, but I can get groups out of situations much easier with my Templar.

I simply think the Templar class needs some tuning on all of their trees, to make some of the skills more worthwhile. Like the OP stated, they seem like a class that needs the fine tuning.

eliisra · November 2015

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

So a recorded 40k DF in the best gear in game makes Templar just fine or even OP to some. OK. My God I hope the developers aren't as ignorant.

I dont think anyone pays to much attention to a PvE'er proudly killing a mammoth and a giant in Wrothar, while having almost every buff in the game, including Elemental Drain lol.

Besides, templars are good in PvE. Most templar issues comes down to current PvP balance/meta.

Show me a video of a mag- or stamplar beating an actual skilled PvP'er, stamblade or magicka sorc main. That would impress me really.

I have yet to see that in-game or anywhere else. Because frankly, ain't gonna happen, unless you're way better skill/gear and CP wise, killing some zergling or casual. When individual player skill is somewhat equal, templars have no chance in hell, when facing master races in PvP.

So either some build/class combinations are overtuned in PvP or others are to weak and needs buffing. Take a pick. No one can honestly say that templars are fine, as well as magicka sorcs and stamblades being fine, in the very same sentence.

SemiD4rkness · November 2015

eliisra wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

So a recorded 40k DF in the best gear in game makes Templar just fine or even OP to some. OK. My God I hope the developers aren't as ignorant.

I dont think anyone pays to much attention to a PvE'er proudly killing a mammoth and a giant in Wrothar, while having almost every buff in the game, including Elemental Drain lol.

Besides, templars are good in PvE. Most templar issues comes down to current PvP balance/meta.

Show me a video of a mag- or stamplar beating an actual skilled PvP'er, stamblade or magicka sorc main. That would impress me really.

I have yet to see that in-game or anywhere else. Because frankly, ain't gonna happen, unless you're way better skill/gear and CP wise, killing some zergling or casual. When individual player skill is somewhat equal, templars have no chance in hell, when facing master races in PvP.

So either some build/class combinations are overtuned in PvP or others are to weak and needs buffing. Take a pick. No one can honestly say that templars are fine, as well as magicka sorcs and stamblades being fine, in the very same sentence.

A templar wont get beaten by a good player with any other class, simply because good pvpers often join dueling guilds and no one in his right mind would EVER bring a templar to a competition lol

Rook_Master · November 2015

As someone who has played Templar since beta, this is 100% accurate.

Wreuntzylla · November 2015

eliisra wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

So a recorded 40k DF in the best gear in game makes Templar just fine or even OP to some. OK. My God I hope the developers aren't as ignorant.

I dont think anyone pays to much attention to a PvE'er proudly killing a mammoth and a giant in Wrothar, while having almost every buff in the game, including Elemental Drain lol.

Besides, templars are good in PvE. Most templar issues comes down to current PvP balance/meta.

Show me a video of a mag- or stamplar beating an actual skilled PvP'er, stamblade or magicka sorc main. That would impress me really.

I have yet to see that in-game or anywhere else. Because frankly, ain't gonna happen, unless you're way better skill/gear and CP wise, killing some zergling or casual. When individual player skill is somewhat equal, templars have no chance in hell, when facing master races in PvP.

So either some build/class combinations are overtuned in PvP or others are to weak and needs buffing. Take a pick. No one can honestly say that templars are fine, as well as magicka sorcs and stamblades being fine, in the very same sentence.

Why did you bring Argonians into this???

Gelassenheit · November 2015

@zornyan

This was with 5x Spell power cure, 3x Willower, 2x Molag Kena, 2x Torug's Pact.

@eliisra

It's fully possible for a templar to pull numbers of ~25k DPS in boss fights, not just random creatures around a zone. Yes, I did it with nearly every buff, just as a matter to show that it is in fact possible. I'm not boasting, or saying 'erma gerd, luk at mmee do dmg' - no. This was a simple proof of a statement that it can be done, nothing else. I do however, agree with your assesment that templar are good, or fine in a PvE setting.

zornyan · November 2015

Gelassenheit wrote: »

@zornyan

This was with 5x Spell power cure, 3x Willower, 2x Molag Kena, 2x Torug's Pact.

@eliisra

It's fully possible for a templar to pull numbers of ~25k DPS in boss fights, not just random creatures around a zone. Yes, I did it with nearly every buff, just as a matter to show that it is in fact possible. I'm not boasting, or saying 'erma gerd, luk at mmee do dmg' - no. This was a simple proof of a statement that it can be done, nothing else. I do however, agree with your assesment that templar are good, or fine in a PvE setting.

Was kena proc'd? What's your spell power sit at buffed/unbuffed

What enchants on jewellery?

laksikus · November 2015

i think you scared vettar away.
he is clearly wrong, as it was already stated here^^

Gelassenheit · November 2015

@zornyan

For the mammoth, kena was not proc'd. For the giant it was, but the giant didn't have ele drain.

All jewelry is +spell damage. Unbuffed I sit at 2695 spell damage. Buffed it is (2695 + 258(spell power cure) + 516 (molag kena) * (1 + 0.2 (entropy) + 0.05(minor sorcery)) = 4336 spell damage

Islyn · November 2015

Gelassenheit wrote: »

Currently, I am using 5x Spell Power cure, 3x Willpower, 1x Molag Kena, and 3x Torug's pact. I use the atronach stone with this build.

I have 44,028 Magicka, and 2695 spell damage (last i checked, TP 2 piece is still bugged - at least on the character sheet) with blue health/magicka food. With entropy, spell power cure, minor sorcery from templars, i'm sitting close to 3700 spell damage.

With the empower buff gained from dark flare, it really does hit like a truck. I wonder what it would be if I used ele drain too...

If i switched to TBS for both theif + shadow, changes some mage CP around, I can get ~76% crit with those ~40k darkflares.

Tonight I should try 5x TBS, 2x Molag Kena, 3x Willpower, 2x Torug's pact, with thief + shadow, ele drain, entropy, minor sorcery, and empower.

O I see. Yeah I have just 3 PC spell power cure and though I have both PC molag kena, I only use my light divines shoulders. Hat is heavy impenetrable. xD and superfluous to this character.

Inig0 · November 2015

As far as pve is concerned templar is the best class. Period.

they can pull high end dps relatively easily. (tbs will turogs -> spam sweeps boom18k plus dps with just sweeps)
they are the best healers in the game as they have access to healing passives and BoL
they can tank very well. The best tank is one that doesnt need heals. Templars heal themselves
extra bonus to the trinity: they created the role tankheal, no other class can do that.

As far as pvp is concerned templar needs work. Mainly the fact that some of their skills are broken (toppling charge) or nerfed so hard its become useless (blazing/sunshield) (im certain there are some other issue about temp im missing those just are the most prominent to me.)

I have a lot of toons. I like to have fun in this game and play what i have tons of fun on, when i pvp i play nb when i pve i play templar. Invite me to group; i promise -- we'll have a good time.

So please dont say templars are weak, they arent. They just simple need some of their skills balanced with the rest of the game.

Islyn · November 2015

Alcast wrote: »

I would like to test Magicka Templar but he is only v12 and till I have undaunted it will take ages lol.
Dark flare is 1,1s or 1,3s casttime? Is the first cast still bugged and takes longer than the following ones?

Dark flare is supposed to be 1.1 sec according to tooltip and it is after the first one which takes 1.7 seconds (which sucks by the way, and this is confirmed by other Templars too.

They need to fix that. :-)

Islyn · November 2015

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

Maybe because Templar is a HEALER class? what do you want? have a healer with a NB/Sorc damage numbers? with cloak, crystal fragments and emperor buffs? you want the MOAB of Call of Duty too? ¬¬

Since the damage reduction patch, at least in PVP, Templar class is completely competitive and useful....in proper hands obviously....

Congratulations at completely missing the point of ESO, very well done. There should be no healer class, that's the point of the game. Any class should be able to heal and the resto staff tree needs an insta cast heal, period.Put BOL in the reto tree and improve the rest of the Templar skills to make them useful.

I lold. So you are now the holder of the sole dictatorship of the point of eso?

Why the hell shouldn't there be a healer class? Because of a cinematic?

I just think you really should get over the idea that every class should heal and provide support and resources as well as a Templar can.

Gimme the best skill in every other class and you can have my BOL. Till then you can pull it from my cold dead fingers. Except you can't because you know, bol.

Just drop a bucket of blood from undaunted and use the red bubble Ward thing xD

I am kinda kidding, but kinda not. I don't have any of the other fancy class skills - and I am not all boo. Can't sneak like a nb, can't do Jack like a sorc and for the moment I leave dk out of this because I just really don't know what's the best skill on a dk anymore after the massive Nerfs when I was away.

zornyan · November 2015

Gelassenheit wrote: »

@zornyan

For the mammoth, kena was not proc'd. For the giant it was, but the giant didn't have ele drain.

All jewelry is +spell damage. Unbuffed I sit at 2695 spell damage. Buffed it is (2965 + 258(spell power cure) + 516 (molag kena) * (1 + 0.2 (entropy) + 0.05(minor sorcery)) = 4336 spell damage

How the ?

I'm using

4x magnus
5x krag
3x willpower spell damage enchants

Yet I'm at 3300 buffed, my krag gives nearly the same spell power as your spell power cure, so how the hell do you get the extra 500 over the 2x kena?

Gelassenheit · November 2015

@zornyan

The scaling from major and minor sorcery becomes incredible when you get up to high spell damage. It is a 25% boost on top of what every other thing gives.

So, effectively (well, sorta.. )

base * 1.25 = 3368.75
spc * 1.25 = 322.5
molag kena * 1.25 = 645

There is an extra line of spell damage on spell cure vs. kragernacs - The 5 piece from both sets give roughly the same amount of spell damage. There also may be a discrepancy based on the quality of the gear you are using -- are your weapons gold v16?

zornyan · November 2015

Gelassenheit wrote: »

@zornyan

The scaling from major and minor sorcery becomes incredible when you get up to high spell damage. It is a 25% boost on top of what every other thing gives.

So, effectively (well, sorta.. )

base * 1.25 = 3368.75
spc * 1.25 = 322.5
molag kena * 1.25 = 645

There is an extra line of spell damage on spell cure vs. kragernacs - The 5 piece from both sets give roughly the same amount of spell damage. There also may be a discrepancy based on the quality of the gear you are using -- are your weapons gold v16?

Yes gold vr 16.

What I'm confused is, my base spell power should be around 100 higher base because my krag is a constant bonus even without the one piece kena

connorw53 · November 2015

It's a game
Lol

Anyway, I love this game. And I run 2 characters.
Magicka Templar (Healer)
Stamina Templar (PvP mainly)

I've seen Stamina Templars with 4500 weapon damage and 70% Crit. Sure we can be a bit squishy, but what class doesn't have defects and imbalance. Think you have some good points but also recognise that every player plays the game different. Do I enjoy spamming Biting Jabs? No, I don't even use it in PvP I am sure it's bugged (doesn't hit sometimes/quite a lot?). There's always someone somewhere who can beat someone with another build, Templar or no Templar...

PS- Mist form (vampire skill)...... My Templars escape. Works a diamond. Try it out (Y)

Xb1- xWiLKoo x

zornyan · November 2015

connorw53 wrote: »

It's a game
Lol

Anyway, I love this game. And I run 2 characters.
Magicka Templar (Healer)
Stamina Templar (PvP mainly)

I've seen Stamina Templars with 4500 weapon damage and 70% Crit. Sure we can be a bit squishy, but what class doesn't have defects and imbalance. Think you have some good points but also recognise that every player plays the game different. Do I enjoy spamming Biting Jabs? No, I don't even use it in PvP I am sure it's bugged (doesn't hit sometimes/quite a lot?). There's always someone somewhere who can beat someone with another build, Templar or no Templar...

PS- Mist form (vampire skill)...... My Templars escape. Works a diamond. Try it out (Y)

Xb1- xWiLKoo x

Mist form doesn't work like a diamond, please don't spout crap.

It's bugged, it doesn't provide the 75% resistance, atm it's around 15%, it also now let's you get stunned and CC'd, so you can make yourself a sitting duck, as when someone cc's you in mist form you become stuck and unable to break free or heal or anything in fact .

Not to mention that being a vampire opens you up to being one shot from anyone using Camo hunter or Dawnbreaker or any fighters guild skill, literally one shot death, hardly an option everyone wants.

I've run vamp a fair bit, since console release, and I've had to accept the downsides, but they are huge downsides, anyone with common sense, especially NB can kill me with 1 shot from stealth, or two out in the open .

Gelassenheit · November 2015

@zornyan

Using

4x magnus
5x krag
3x willpower spell damage enchants

The spell damage should be:

base = 2x vr16 swords: 1602
Gear enchants: 3x174 = 522
Willpower bonus: 186
Magnus bonus: 129
Krag: 224

Which ends up being 2663, provided everything is vr16 gold (except of course, willpower).
When you get both sorcery buffs, you should be sitting at 3329.

Using

5x spc
3x willpower
2x molag
2x torug's pact

base = 1602
enchants = 522
willpower = 186
tp = 129
molag = 129
spc = 129

Which ends up being 2697 (i'm at 2695 because one of my SPC is v15 - which causes the SPC buff to be 255 instead of 258).

I have to get molag kena proc, spell power cure proc, then sorcery buffs. The two procs push me to 3466 (2695+255+516); then i put the sorcery buffs ontop of that, pushing it up by 25%, making it 4333, or 4336 provided I had all v16 SPC.

AfkNinja · November 2015

connorw53 wrote: »

It's a game

I've seen Stamina Templars with 4500 weapon damage and 70% Crit.

That's great, no one is saying Stamplar can't hit hard. The complaint is Stamplar loses almost all defensive utility to be able to DPS but other classes don't lose their defensive utility. Dragon knight can still get +50% healing as a Stamina DK to boost Rally/Vigor. Sorc still gets great offensive healing with Crit Surge, still gets great mobility. NB still has use of fear and cloak. Only Templar is penalized so severely, our heals are useless if we pick stamina. NONE of our passives work on any heals outside of class heals. Our class armor is the shortest and we have no AOE CC at all, only ST CC. Stamplar also has no passive resource regen, to get stamina back we need dead bodies, to get MP back we have to stand in rune focus or spam recast it. Stop arguing from the point of view of "I can kill people so I am fine."

Jura23 · November 2015

AfkNinja wrote: »

connorw53 wrote: »

It's a game

I've seen Stamina Templars with 4500 weapon damage and 70% Crit.

That's great, no one is saying Stamplar can't hit hard. The complaint is Stamplar loses almost all defensive utility to be able to DPS but other classes don't lose their defensive utility. Dragon knight can still get +50% healing as a Stamina DK to boost Rally/Vigor. Sorc still gets great offensive healing with Crit Surge, still gets great mobility. NB still has use of fear and cloak. Only Templar is penalized so severely, our heals are useless if we pick stamina. NONE of our passives work on any heals outside of class heals. Our class armor is the shortest and we have no AOE CC at all, only ST CC. Stamplar also has no passive resource regen, to get stamina back we need dead bodies, to get MP back we have to stand in rune focus or spam recast it. Stop arguing from the point of view of "I can kill people so I am fine."

One thing is good about all this. Ppl playing underpowered stamplars will become hardened by that fact and be godlike out there once they get some buffs

Wreuntzylla · November 2015

Gelassenheit wrote: »

@zornyan

The scaling from major and minor sorcery becomes incredible when you get up to high spell damage. It is a 25% boost on top of what every other thing gives.

So, effectively (well, sorta.. )

base * 1.25 = 3368.75
spc * 1.25 = 322.5
molag kena * 1.25 = 645

There is an extra line of spell damage on spell cure vs. kragernacs - The 5 piece from both sets give roughly the same amount of spell damage. There also may be a discrepancy based on the quality of the gear you are using -- are your weapons gold v16?

Sustain?

Springt-Über-Zwerge · November 2015

@Gelassenheit did you use TBS for that?

Jura23 wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

connorw53 wrote: »

It's a game

I've seen Stamina Templars with 4500 weapon damage and 70% Crit.

That's great, no one is saying Stamplar can't hit hard. The complaint is Stamplar loses almost all defensive utility to be able to DPS but other classes don't lose their defensive utility. Dragon knight can still get +50% healing as a Stamina DK to boost Rally/Vigor. Sorc still gets great offensive healing with Crit Surge, still gets great mobility. NB still has use of fear and cloak. Only Templar is penalized so severely, our heals are useless if we pick stamina. NONE of our passives work on any heals outside of class heals. Our class armor is the shortest and we have no AOE CC at all, only ST CC. Stamplar also has no passive resource regen, to get stamina back we need dead bodies, to get MP back we have to stand in rune focus or spam recast it. Stop arguing from the point of view of "I can kill people so I am fine."

One thing is good about all this. Ppl playing underpowered stamplars will become hardened by that fact and be godlike out there once they get some buffs

Not just STAM-plars! Lets hope they dont "buff" templars like in recent updates

Nifty2g · November 2015

Gelassenheit wrote: »

@zornyan

Using

4x magnus
5x krag
3x willpower spell damage enchants

The spell damage should be:

base = 2x vr16 swords: 1602
Gear enchants: 3x174 = 522
Willpower bonus: 186
Magnus bonus: 129
Krag: 224

Which ends up being 2663, provided everything is vr16 gold (except of course, willpower).
When you get both sorcery buffs, you should be sitting at 3329.

Using

5x spc
3x willpower
2x molag
2x torug's pact

base = 1602
enchants = 522
willpower = 186
tp = 129
molag = 129
spc = 129

Which ends up being 2697 (i'm at 2695 because one of my SPC is v15 - which causes the SPC buff to be 255 instead of 258).

I have to get molag kena proc, spell power cure proc, then sorcery buffs. The two procs push me to 3466 (2695+255+516); then i put the sorcery buffs ontop of that, pushing it up by 25%, making it 4333, or 4336 provided I had all v16 SPC.

I personally find those set ups generally weaker, and exetremly hard to sustain, well the spell power cure one anyway, the the magnus one is a lot weaker.

And Molag Kena, is highly unreliable as a Templar not being able to proc it like other classes can.

After a lot of tests Spell Power Cure wasn't as strong as I once thought it would be, maybe in a Trial sense but nothing Solo or if you are a DPS

Korah_Eaglecry · November 2015

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

I disagree. It was never the worst class to play.

I soloed through old Gold and Silver (when it was hard) with a templar.

Every class can and does make lists of how their skills aren't as good as other classes skills.

DPS isn't the end all and be all of if a class is good. Templars have a lot of group buffs and utility. Templars make other classes work better. It isn't as flashy and cool as being the top of the DPS meter in a group, but I have never been turned away from a group as a templar.

This right here. Every class shines in one thing and does at least so so in others. I dont know why people expect Templars to be the top notch of everything else. Theyre the premiere Healers in the game. None of the other classes can touch the Templars ability to bring the Heal Train. And they can do above average DPS when used properly. Hell one of my friends has out DPSed my NB with his Templar at times. Fact is, theres very few instances where a class completely fails to do what it is you want it to do unless youve completely borked the build. I have a Templar friend thats constantly complaining about her lack of DPS. But her build is a Hybrid of DPS and Heals so its blatantly obvious to anyone with common sense that of course shes not going to do the top DPS in a group.

Ive seen this sort of thinking completely corrupt and unhinge game balance in other MMOs. Where players wanted their class to be the best at everything or things that it didnt specialize in. Making an absolute mess of things.

usmcjdking · November 2015

The only things I want for Templar:

-Blinding Flashes Back, not a copy and pasted Soul Assault.
-Increase (significantly) Javelin, which we hurl with godlike strength for 1.7k damage.
-Radiant Aura (Other morph from repentance) gives Major Mending.
-Eclipse completely reworked at this point. For a skill that is almost never used, it's been nerfed more than any other skill I can think of. Make it do like the skill sounds, I'm looking at Final Boss of normal Spindleclutch and her blinding attack. Make it do that.

OtarTheMad · November 2015

Thalmor-Nordmaster wrote: »

My Templar was deleted while imbibing the Spiced Rum. I now have to start from scratch. Never ever type Delete when you see three of everything.

You should be able to get that character back if you contact the help desk. You just need to give them as much information as possible like when he was deleted, what race, class etc.

My NB Mithllon got deleted and I got him back no problem.

EgoRush · November 2015

usmcjdking wrote: »

The only things I want for Templar:

-Blinding Flashes Back, not a copy and pasted Soul Assault.
-Increase (significantly) Javelin, which we hurl with godlike strength for 1.7k damage.
-Radiant Aura (Other morph from repentance) gives Major Mending.
-Eclipse completely reworked at this point. For a skill that is almost never used, it's been nerfed more than any other skill I can think of. Make it do like the skill sounds, I'm looking at Final Boss of normal Spindleclutch and her blinding attack. Make it do that.

These are all great suggestions! I think Eclipse should just be dropped though and replaced with Blinding Flashes. I don't want to give up my Jesus Beam.

Major Mending from Radiant Aura would be fantastic though haha.

Dubhliam · November 2015

Vatter wrote: »

...
Our DPS is last on the list. Even though we can put up some decent numbers, it is, still in fact, last place.
For PVE DPS it goes DK, NB, Sorc, Temp.
...

Stopped reading here.