zornyan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

A Magic Templar has the option to burst heal in the event he is damaged (if he has time to react), a sorc does not. A sorc pretty much has to always have a shield up anywhere he goes or risk being 1-shot from stealth (wouldn't a magic templar have the same risk because no shield?).

Yes a magic templar can reactively heal but wouldn't the Magic Templar be using very similar armor to a Magic Sorc? If your Magic Sorc is being 1 shot from stealth so would the Templar, however you can proactively anticipate this dmg and protect yourself, the Templar can't.

I don't think Hardened Ward should scale on HP but if shield stacking stays in there needs to be some kind of adjustment made.

I also think it's funny you're so against a 10 second shield with no other nerf when Templar's is 6 seconds, was double nerfed for IC and their armor is 12 seconds....

Exactly this, a sorc can keep a shield up permenantly, and take 0 damage, they can put a shield up before attack someone, and then attack full force without worrying for several seconds.

A templar has to waste precious time healing, all whilst taking more damage, my breath of life heals for 15k+ in cyrodil, but half the time the second I heal back to full health, I've got 2 more wrecking blows coming my way instantly bringing me back down, or killing me .

Also Templars lack the mobility of socerers, since they have the single best escape in the game, and one of the best and hardest hitting skills in the game, that also had the benefit of working from range .

Well what´s keeping you from damaging the sorcs shield when they cast it? It´s basically 100% the same as with your heal ._. both abilities take 1gcd to execute.

Okay take it like this

Your a templar and find a wrecking blow spammer.

He hits you, you've lost 10k of your 25k health, you break free and another hits you, you heal but as doing that another gits you, forcing you to heal again, and again, putting out minimal dps if any, whilst doing so.

A sorc can put up a 15k shield, run into the battle, and hit the spammer, without worrying about the initial hit, immediately putting him on the offense, thanks to their huge burst damage, they can annihilate the spammer before a second wrecking blow is even considered.

See the issue?

well you should get a clue about sorc burst it demands 4 seconds of preperation = 4 WB from your "spammer" ...

zornyan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Oh 82k damage shields.... so 42k in pvp....

Without any CP in bastion....

Nope not broken at all, nothing to see here lads..

Where are you getting these figures from?? Stop posting BS ffs. 10k hardened plus 7k harness = 17k damage shield. Healing starts off as a 3-4k ward and goes up to about 15k if cast at low health, but it lasts 6 seconds. You play a templar from what I can gather so should know how healing ward works. These figures are with 35k magicka and 77cp in bastion for 20% boost to damage shield strength. 100 cp in bastion gives 25% boost to damage shield strength so wouldn't amount to much more. You're just being disruptive now.

Edit: adjusted some figures.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/230073/epic-shield-stacking#latest

82k worth of shields, infact the next page has someone that can stack 130k worth of shields.....


So again, all shields need to be FIXED , plain and simple there needs to be a cap in place.

You have to be a troll, no other explanation. Read that thread you posted. Anyone can reach an 80k pve ward with barrier, dampen magic, healing ward cast at low hp, whitestrakes retribution, damage shield enchant, other set procs that give damage shields etc. Even you could do it. Sorcs have one unique shield. Do yourself a favour and stop posting.

Actually he was just using barrier, hardened and healing.

Just seems stupid sorcs able to get 40+ k worth of shields in PVP , that's 2x their health bar. .

You're a lost cause trying to argue with.

30k out of that 40k is not Sorc related yet here you are posting on a thread arguing how hardened ward that makes 1/4 of that should be nerfed. GG logic.

Oh and when you talk about the "superior sorc sustain" with 5% cost reduction and 10% mag regen, you may want to consider that we have the only class ability in the game that infinitely stacks in cost. It's a small detail.

Or that if you read other classes' passives and do some testing, you'll see that NB's 15% regen across the board or Helping Hands and Battle Roar offer better return over a minute than Sorc passives. If you have issues with your Templar you should perhaps take it up on a Templar thread rather than polluting other threads with irrelevant to the subject rambling.

Just some ideas, though I know they will fall on deaf ears, as always.

I generally don't have any issues on my templar, sorcs are a pain because my main dps skill (sweeps) is entirely redundant , meaning I either have to completly swap my skills around, or rely on dark flare (lol) .

My issue, is that I can switch my exact gear to a sorcerer, have another 370 spell damage, another 2 or 3% max magicka. Another 10-20% on my regen stats without touching a thing.

If you have extra max magica that´s related to racials.

I meant bound armor giving 8% instead of mage light giving 5%

it gives additional 2% by adding a mageguild ability to your bars.

Tankqull wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

A Magic Templar has the option to burst heal in the event he is damaged (if he has time to react), a sorc does not. A sorc pretty much has to always have a shield up anywhere he goes or risk being 1-shot from stealth (wouldn't a magic templar have the same risk because no shield?).

Yes a magic templar can reactively heal but wouldn't the Magic Templar be using very similar armor to a Magic Sorc? If your Magic Sorc is being 1 shot from stealth so would the Templar, however you can proactively anticipate this dmg and protect yourself, the Templar can't.

I don't think Hardened Ward should scale on HP but if shield stacking stays in there needs to be some kind of adjustment made.

I also think it's funny you're so against a 10 second shield with no other nerf when Templar's is 6 seconds, was double nerfed for IC and their armor is 12 seconds....

Exactly this, a sorc can keep a shield up permenantly, and take 0 damage, they can put a shield up before attack someone, and then attack full force without worrying for several seconds.

A templar has to waste precious time healing, all whilst taking more damage, my breath of life heals for 15k+ in cyrodil, but half the time the second I heal back to full health, I've got 2 more wrecking blows coming my way instantly bringing me back down, or killing me .

Also Templars lack the mobility of socerers, since they have the single best escape in the game, and one of the best and hardest hitting skills in the game, that also had the benefit of working from range .

Well what´s keeping you from damaging the sorcs shield when they cast it? It´s basically 100% the same as with your heal ._. both abilities take 1gcd to execute.

Okay take it like this

Your a templar and find a wrecking blow spammer.

He hits you, you've lost 10k of your 25k health, you break free and another hits you, you heal but as doing that another gits you, forcing you to heal again, and again, putting out minimal dps if any, whilst doing so.

A sorc can put up a 15k shield, run into the battle, and hit the spammer, without worrying about the initial hit, immediately putting him on the offense, thanks to their huge burst damage, they can annihilate the spammer before a second wrecking blow is even considered.

See the issue?

well you should get a clue about sorc burst it demands 4 seconds of preperation = 4 WB from your "spammer" ...

Why are you in WB range since the entire burst combo can be setup at 20m+? If you can't kite an enemy for 4s as a Sorc then you have far bigger issues.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Why are you in WB range since the entire burst combo can be setup at 20m+? If you can't kite an enemy for 4s as a Sorc then you have far bigger issues.

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AfkNinja wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

well you should get a clue about sorc burst it demands 4 seconds of preperation = 4 WB from your "spammer" ...

This is incorrect. It CAN take a few seconds but Sorc is kinda random like that. At any point you can get a crystal frags proc (35% chance means it should proc on ave every 2-3 skills), hell you could have a crystal frags proc on hold just from running around using boundless storm and your shields. At that point it's very easy to use the crystal frag, drop your burst skills like Velocious Curse and streak through your opponent and watch him explode and not be able to react. I've seen it happen. Not to mention if someone wants to WB you all you have to do is streak right through them to break LOS and stop it.

So, waste a Fragments because you don't combine it with more dmg, waste a Curse because you don't combine it with more dmg, waste a Streak because the enemy already is cc'd. Yeah great tactic, there's no burst in that that would kill anyone, you really should try playing Sorc yourself, you seem to have no clue of how it works.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

A Magic Templar has the option to burst heal in the event he is damaged (if he has time to react), a sorc does not. A sorc pretty much has to always have a shield up anywhere he goes or risk being 1-shot from stealth (wouldn't a magic templar have the same risk because no shield?).

Yes a magic templar can reactively heal but wouldn't the Magic Templar be using very similar armor to a Magic Sorc? If your Magic Sorc is being 1 shot from stealth so would the Templar, however you can proactively anticipate this dmg and protect yourself, the Templar can't.

I don't think Hardened Ward should scale on HP but if shield stacking stays in there needs to be some kind of adjustment made.

I also think it's funny you're so against a 10 second shield with no other nerf when Templar's is 6 seconds, was double nerfed for IC and their armor is 12 seconds....

Exactly this, a sorc can keep a shield up permenantly, and take 0 damage, they can put a shield up before attack someone, and then attack full force without worrying for several seconds.

A templar has to waste precious time healing, all whilst taking more damage, my breath of life heals for 15k+ in cyrodil, but half the time the second I heal back to full health, I've got 2 more wrecking blows coming my way instantly bringing me back down, or killing me .

Also Templars lack the mobility of socerers, since they have the single best escape in the game, and one of the best and hardest hitting skills in the game, that also had the benefit of working from range .

Well what´s keeping you from damaging the sorcs shield when they cast it? It´s basically 100% the same as with your heal ._. both abilities take 1gcd to execute.

Okay take it like this

Your a templar and find a wrecking blow spammer.

He hits you, you've lost 10k of your 25k health, you break free and another hits you, you heal but as doing that another gits you, forcing you to heal again, and again, putting out minimal dps if any, whilst doing so.

A sorc can put up a 15k shield, run into the battle, and hit the spammer, without worrying about the initial hit, immediately putting him on the offense, thanks to their huge burst damage, they can annihilate the spammer before a second wrecking blow is even considered.

See the issue?

well you should get a clue about sorc burst it demands 4 seconds of preperation = 4 WB from your "spammer" ...

Why are you in WB range since the entire burst combo can be setup at 20m+? If you can't kite an enemy for 4s as a Sorc then you have far bigger issues.

The post you quoted was responding to a claim that Sorc would be the only one with preemptive defense.
Argument being that Sorc is also the one giving enemies time to react on incoming burst. If someone attacks a Sorc who had his shield(s) up, it does not instantly pur the Sorc on the offense because he can't deal any life threatening damage instantly (unless we are talking about players who let themselves get 2 shot by something like fragments + dawnbreaker).
And if the Sorc is taking the initiative, he gives opponents time to react with his Curse if he wants high damage.

ToRelax wrote: »

So, waste a Fragments because you don't combine it with more dmg, waste a Curse because you don't combine it with more dmg, waste a Streak because the enemy already is cc'd. Yeah great tactic, there's no burst in that that would kill anyone, you really should try playing Sorc yourself, you seem to have no clue of how it works.

Clearly I am not an expert on Sorc, I will admit that freely. However I do play sorc, I am currently leveling one in DC and he's lvl 32 I think. I don't understand your reasoning at all. How is it a "waste" to immediately enter combat with a 10k+ dmg Crystal Shard? That's like a third of most peoples health bars, afterwards you can velocious curse/encase/streak w/e that's not my point. Every time you use any magic ability you have a 35% chance of getting a frag proc on that, as long as reflect isn't up why is it bad to put your opponent on defense? By the time your curse is popping you likely have a second frag. Don't tell me this doesn't happen cause I see it all the time and I DO IT in pve, hell I've had frags proc 3 times in a row in PVE. Also if you time it right, as they are getting up from your frag you can stun them again before CC immunity applies with a bolt escape.

However all of that is irrelevant to my point which is everything a sorc does including popping shields gives him shards, this is getting your offense while you are getting your defense. Having your cake and Eating it too. Does templar get an instant DD ability with +20% dmg for using a heal? Does NB for using cloak or siphon attacks? Does DK get a huge burst of dmg for using Igneous shield and dragon blood?

My point is you get too much defensive utility at the same time your getting offensive utility and it's unbalance. It's up to the Devs how they want to adjust this. You can argue with me all day but these threads keep popping up for a reason and eventually ZOS will listen. Either make your own suggestions or get "balanced" to harshly by ZOS.

You even admitted you can 2 shot people....(unless we are talking about players who let themselves get 2 shot by something like fragments + dawnbreaker) Bad player or not how is this fair?

Xeven wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

I see it all the time and I DO IT in pve, hell I've had frags proc 3 times in a row in PVE.

The probability of getting three frags in a row is extremely low. 0.35^3 = 4%, and only a 12% chance to get one twice in a row.

Brilliant you understand statistics. That's great. Probability of an event happening is irrelevant to me though. Do you think the guy who just got 3 crystal frags in his face cares that it can only happen 4% of the time. Or the guy who just got 2x crystal frags cares that it's 12%? 4% or 12% it's unbalanced cause only Sorcerer can do that...Other classes can use shields but they don't get an instant cast +20% dmg Wrecking Blow for doing it.

All that is irrelevant and you still didn't address my point. Sorcerer is the only class in the game who gets a instant class massive dmg skill usable from range which procs 35% of the time ON EVERY SPELL. Every time he recasts his shields let's say for ease of argument he uses 2 shields, Harness Magicka and Hardened ward, every time you drop his shields he recasts them and has a 57% chance of hitting you with a 10k+ frag. This isn't even accounting for your other timed burst spells which ALSO proc your frags. Your defense is giving you insane burst,, your bind gives you insane burst, your CC gives you insane burst, your mobility spell gives you insane burst that's the argument. And to top it off as an added bonus you can walk around with full shields at all times....

Also once again, it doesn't even matter what I think or you think. If you don't get ahead of this and request changes you can live with ZOS will make the decision for you as these threads are not going away.

ToRelax wrote: »

I don't even use Dawnbreaker and my fragment crits aren't anywhere close to 10k. So no, I can't 2 shot people. But a dualwield sorc using frags + dawnbreaker on a stupid 18k hp vamp stamblade has a chance. In that case it#s hardly unbalanced.
What you were proposing - fragments -> curse -> streak - is just a stupid rotation. Even if I used those 3 skills in a row, I would do it as curse -> streak -> fragments. And that is delayed burst.

The order of the skills you use is irrelevant man. C'mon, be honest with me for a minute. If you were not a sorcerer would you feel it's fair for ANY class to be able to use a defensive skill like a shield and proc a massive burst dmg attack off it? For real? You'd be okay with let's say ZOS changed Templar (or any class) so that when he uses Breath of Life he has a 35% chance to instant cast Biting Jabs? All 4 hits, instant. (The number of hits is irrelevant, substitute WB if you want). How would you ever kill a Temp if he could instant cast WB or biting jabs from using his heal? And at least HIS defense is reactionary not PREEMPTIVE. The issue is no class can do that, once you start using your defensive skills you lose out on dmg, that's balance. But sorcs don't they proc high dmg from proactive defensive spells.

AfkNinja wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I don't even use Dawnbreaker and my fragment crits aren't anywhere close to 10k. So no, I can't 2 shot people. But a dualwield sorc using frags + dawnbreaker on a stupid 18k hp vamp stamblade has a chance. In that case it#s hardly unbalanced.
What you were proposing - fragments -> curse -> streak - is just a stupid rotation. Even if I used those 3 skills in a row, I would do it as curse -> streak -> fragments. And that is delayed burst.

The order of the skills you use is irrelevant man. C'mon, be honest with me for a minute. If you were not a sorcerer would you feel it's fair for ANY class to be able to use a defensive skill like a shield and proc a massive burst dmg attack off it? For real? You'd be okay with let's say ZOS changed Templar (or any class) so that when he uses Breath of Life he has a 35% chance to instant cast Biting Jabs? All 4 hits, instant. (The number of hits is irrelevant, substitute WB if you want). How would you ever kill a Temp if he could instant cast WB or biting jabs from using his heal? And at least HIS defense is reactionary not PREEMPTIVE. The issue is no class can do that, once you start using your defensive skills you lose out on dmg, that's balance. But sorcs don't they proc high dmg from proactive defensive spells.

Procced Fragments use the skill GCD like every other skill. They are a slow to medium speed well visible magic projectile, it doesn't really get any weaker in terms of type of attack (only Dark Flare / Vampire's Bane are easier to counter). I know how to deal with it, on any class, I've been dueling with all of them against very good players. If you are aware of your opponent, you can even see and hear when his fragments are ready, I don't understand how anyone who tried to learn and adjust could have a problem with fragments.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

@Xeven

Despite your eloquent response Ambush is a problem for every class equally. It is far worse for those that cannot preemptively shield or streak away when they have an opportunity however.

@Tankqull

Crit Rush can actually be dodged and even after you are hit by it you can cancel the WB by walking through the target or streaking through them. Also, Crit Rush has a minimum distance and is succeptible to Encase. You guys make it sound like Sorc is the weakest class in the game just because you don't want to admit they are top tier and get nerfed as a result. I'm pretty sure vMSA ruined any chance of that happening though.

You can not streak away from any gap closer, ambush or otherwise.

You can not streak through WB if it is on your second bar. By the time you weapon swap youre already getting hit. You spam WB and I'll spam streak. Guess who is going to run out of resources first?

Sorc is not the weakest class in the game but we certainly are not going to sit here quietly while you attempt to gut the class with absurd suggested changes to hardened ward and crystal fragments.

Xeven wrote: »

You can not streak away from any gap closer, ambush or otherwise. Uh, yes you can...just break line of sight.

You can not streak through WB if it is on your second bar. (Then put it on your first? Wtf kinda response is this?) By the time you weapon swap you're already getting hit. You spam WB and I'll spam streak. Guess who is going to run out of resources first? (You because his WB keeps failing to activate meaning he uses no resources? Meanwhile your Frags proced and now you have an instant cast WB with +20% dmg you can use whenever.)

Sorc is debatably the strongest class in the game but we certainly are not going to sit here quietly while you attempt to gut the class with reasonable suggested changes to hardened ward and crystal fragments(I didn't suggest a change to Crystal Frags, you aren't even reading the responses. I merely made a valid argument that it is imbalanced, I suggested no changes.) While I refuse to make suggestions myself and instead complain that everyone wants to change my shields cause they are unbalanced and I am unwilling to admit it.

Then suggest a change you can live with, or ZOS will adjust it for you in a manner you don't like. The only way to stop these threads is to petition for change on behalf of Sorcerers. Either Templar and Dragon Knight needs buffs or NB and Sorc need adjustments otherwise these threads will just keep popping up.

The OP merely asked if changing the shield to HP scaling like EVERY other class shield would work. You don't like that change, ok but something has to give. It's not fair 1 class gets offense from using their class defense. On top of that Proactive defense is ALWAYS better than reactive, ALWAYS.

Xeven wrote: »

The first thing I would do to balance shields is remove stacking.

Thank you. I agree although I would think a Major/Minor ward would be more balanced. No more stacking 5 shields to 100,000 shields (Just saw a thread with SS's of this yesterday).

So buff templar? What is your point?

The speed buff lasts for 8 seconds, not 20, and that is the only reason it is used for.

zornyan wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

When did this turn into Templar vs Sorcerer?

Well, I play both and my Templar has multiple skills to increase regen(This is strait up wrong, we have 2. One of which requires bodies to work at all. Also the "passive" effect it gives is the same as a potion and does not stack. And to get the MP from channeled focus we have to recast every 8 seconds. NO ONE ELSE HAS AN ARMOR THAT'S 8 SECONDS, 12 if you stand still.), better healing (Only as a magic class, much worse healing as stamina compared to sorc), and can last longer in close proximity to enemy players than my sorc can. (This is wrong as well, Sorc has the highest mobility in the game and the BEST PROACTIVE defense. If you are dying faster on sorc than Templar than you likely just need practice playing sorc.)

Everyone needs to stop arguing and actually take a moment to consider the actual points brought up in this thread, we aren't just bashing on SORCS we see an imbalance and would point it out for ANY CLASS. Do I personally want Sorc nerfed? No. I don't even want the shield changed to scale on HP, what we DO WANT however is a review of these mechanics because they are not fair OR a buff to other classes to bring us up to par.

This isn't a Templar vs Sorcerer thread, Templar was only brought up to argue a point about PROACTIVE DEFENSE vs REACTIVE DEFENSE. We are merely emphasizing you can PREEMPT DAMAGE which is BETTER than reacting to heal or cloak or block cause you can keep fighting. How to kill any magic class from stealth -> DMG to CC to death, if they are magic and wearing cloth they likely can be burst down in a few seconds unless you give them time to react.

Ezareth argued earlier Sorcs need those shields cause without them you get insta-gibbed from steath, ironically he didn't even acknowledge that Magic Templar, Magic Dragon Knight and Magic NB are going to be wearing similar armor (cloth) and likely in the same scenario would ALSO BE INSTA-GIBBED because ALL OF THEIR DEFENSES ARE REACTIONARY not PROACTIVE. At least you can PREPARE for the fight before it happens, no one else can. Sorcerer is essentially the Batman of ESO.

Can a Templar use non-class shields? Yes. Will he gain the same benefit as a Sorcerer, not likely. Will anyone gain the same benefit as a Sorc? No because no one has a 20 second huge class shield which scales much higher than other class shields. At the very least shields should only stack 2 at a time, a Major ward and a minor ward like every other buff.

You're wrong about Repentance. The passive regen is not the same as the potion buffs. You're thinking of the other morph that no one uses, because it is completely useless and even than that morph still has the passive regen. The buffs are only when you activate the skill. Channeled Focus is 8 seconds, but it gives the same armor buffs as Bound Armor plus it adds in magic regen and on top of that, it is not a toggle. And you don't have to stand in place to get the benefits.

I need to practice playing my sorc? That's funny. Read what I actually wrote instead of what you think I wrote. I said that my Templar can stand in close proximity to multiple enemy players longer than my sorc can. That is because sorcs have to maintain distance. If that ward goes down, there are very few options for healing. And not all of us are using a resto staff.

I know very few Templars that use light armor. People are always surprised when I tell them I wear 5 light because of how much damage I can mitigate and how much I can live through and keep others alive through. To this day, I have not been successfully ganked on my horse on my Templar. My sorc has been.

And it doesn't matter that a sorc shield cast lasts 20 seconds. It's only going to absorb 8-12k worth of damage, depending on the player. You have to cast it about as frequently as a templar would need to cast Blazing Shield or Harness Magic. But the thing is that a Templar doesn't need to do this, because of healing.

Er let's see

Channeled focus adds regen if you STAND IN THE TINY TINY CIRCLE and last for 8 Seconds

lightning form lasts for 20 seconds, does damage AND grants a speed buff AND last for 20 seconds.

Unless your telling me all pvp fights are static?

FFS learn your own class, the regen component is allways active once layed for the full duration regardless of your position (do yourself a favor and get an UI displaying regs), the armor buff lasts 8 sec if you are outside of the circle getting back in and you are buffed again staying within and it lasts for the entire duration of Channeld focus.