Is CC immunity broken in 1.7?

Lettigall · October 2015

Yes

In the middle of breaking free animation getting CCed again- working as intended!

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · October 2015

Yes

This one is always surprised again and again, by how ZOS manages to mess up a simple thing like this.

First off, stuns, immobilizes, knock-downs (or ups) etc. should be a costly thing, if you intend to have player versus player fights, where the fight is an actual fight and not a keep the opponent from ever fighting back and kill him/her with impunity.

If you add high burst damage, greatly based on animation canceling, you are begging for macro (ab)use.

However, since the system is now as it is, here a proposal to at least get the CC-madness under control.

Introduce a delay between the time when the skill with the CC skill hits the target and when it is actually CCed that is longer then human reaction time, so that you can see the CC animation, cancel it by performing the appropriate break free, and have enough time left to not getting CCed (or unable to fight) afterwards

Implementation (just basic case, as some skills also grant immunity for some CCs this will need more detail)

If target is hit with CC 
  If target has CC immunity then 
    do nothing %% i.e. CC immunity timer has not run out
  else 
    start CC animation 
    start timer for CC effect to become active %% timer should run >> 2 x 250 ms
  end
end

%% this is after check that enough stamina is there to do break free etc.
If target can perform break free then
  if timer for CC effect has time left then
    set timer for CC effect to invalid
    start timer for CC immunity 
    %% in the same frame and not one frame after another     
    stop CC animation and start break free animation   
 else if target is CCed then
    start timer for CC immunity
    %% again both for preparing the next single frame
    stop CC is active / in place animation and start break free animation 
end

If timer for CC effect to become active has run out then
  start CC is active / in place animation
  set target to CCed 
end

... 
%% more code for CC effect running out, break free done, CC immunity time over

This ensure that the effect of the CC starts after the animation of the CC has been visible for >> 250 ms (typical human reaction time) and that there is enough time for the target to break free (the other >> 250 ms) and actually let everyone see that the target did so and is now immune to CC for x seconds and that last, but not least that the target is not CCed over and over again by the same or several sources.

Aedaryl · October 2015

Yes

It works, sometimes.....

ZOS, it's a real problem here, pls, do something for fix it !

Tomato · October 2015

Yes

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_EricWrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JasonLeavey

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · October 2015

Yes

Aedaryl wrote: »

ZOS, it's a real problem here, pls, do something for fix it !

and even if it works, the break free animation takes so f...ing long, you are more likely to be dead or out of CC immunity by the time it is finished and animation canceling for once doesn't seem to work here ...

On a side note, the current CC immunity time is way to short, even with buffs from skills or extra time from potions and such.

Vraneon · October 2015

Yes

Sharee wrote: »

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

When it fails to give me the immunity? I just sit there and die.

Don't wait for something to give you CC immunity. CC break yourself.

CC break immunity is both longer(8 seconds) and more reliable(you always get CC immunity after a break) than waiting for CC to expire to get auto-immunity(5 seconds, and sometimes applied too late which results in chain-CC).

I am using Break Free. I tend to immediately get stunned again. If I actually got eight seconds of immunity then it would take four guys to kill me because of my high mitigation and on the rare occasion that the immunity works, that is exactly the case. Unfortunately, CC-Immunity very rarely works in Cyrodiil.

Interestingly, I've never had it fail while dungeoning. Wether the enemies aren't CCing often enough to notice it fail or it's only player-initiated moves that breach the immunity, I'm unsure.

I've been playing since beta and i never got CC-ed within 8 seconds after using break-free. However there were plenty of times where it felt like the immunity was shorter than 8 seconds, when it fact it was full 8 seconds(i had to review the recording to realize that).

If you get CC-ed right after CC break so often, catch it on video and post.

I have been playing since beta too and there are more than plenty bugs with cc immunity and your tip regarding break-free is useless, when the mechanic is just bugged. Just look up the patch history and look about how many times there has been issues and it was seemingly "fixed". And ppl don't run around recording the hefty amount of bugs, also what should it be good for? Recording and reporting every bug in the game is not the job of the customers. It just gets tiring after a while. The amount of different cc immunity bugs I had is just ridiculous.

My favourite bug of broken cc mechanic is, that I was trying to break out of cc, wasn't working properly and I wasn't also gaining any immunity. And after I revived at a castle I suddenly got a permanent cc immunity, but also a permanent stun. In other words: I had the cc immunity symbol on me (around my legs) and could break cc indefinitely cuz I was stunned all the time, till I ran out of stamina, but at the same time I couldn't use a single skill, cuz the system thought I was still in cc.

Asmael · October 2015

Yes

I just got knockbacked twice in a row by Flame Clench yesterday.

Of course, many other times by WB before that, got chain-CC'd a few, etc...

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · November 2015

Yes

Even with immovable potion and immovable (heavy armor skill line) active (and just after casting dark cloak and as many break frees as stamina was available), this one sees nothing but CCs you can't get out (in time) in PvP from any and all sources (4 different ones in the screenshot below)

PVP is getting ridiculous, where is this so called CC immunity?

Sharee · November 2015

Vraneon wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

When it fails to give me the immunity? I just sit there and die.

Don't wait for something to give you CC immunity. CC break yourself.

CC break immunity is both longer(8 seconds) and more reliable(you always get CC immunity after a break) than waiting for CC to expire to get auto-immunity(5 seconds, and sometimes applied too late which results in chain-CC).

I am using Break Free. I tend to immediately get stunned again. If I actually got eight seconds of immunity then it would take four guys to kill me because of my high mitigation and on the rare occasion that the immunity works, that is exactly the case. Unfortunately, CC-Immunity very rarely works in Cyrodiil.

Interestingly, I've never had it fail while dungeoning. Wether the enemies aren't CCing often enough to notice it fail or it's only player-initiated moves that breach the immunity, I'm unsure.

I've been playing since beta and i never got CC-ed within 8 seconds after using break-free. However there were plenty of times where it felt like the immunity was shorter than 8 seconds, when it fact it was full 8 seconds(i had to review the recording to realize that).

If you get CC-ed right after CC break so often, catch it on video and post.

I have been playing since beta too and there are more than plenty bugs with cc immunity and your tip regarding break-free is useless, when the mechanic is just bugged. Just look up the patch history and look about how many times there has been issues and it was seemingly "fixed". And ppl don't run around recording the hefty amount of bugs, also what should it be good for? Recording and reporting every bug in the game is not the job of the customers. It just gets tiring after a while. The amount of different cc immunity bugs I had is just ridiculous.

My favourite bug of broken cc mechanic is, that I was trying to break out of cc, wasn't working properly and I wasn't also gaining any immunity. And after I revived at a castle I suddenly got a permanent cc immunity, but also a permanent stun. In other words: I had the cc immunity symbol on me (around my legs) and could break cc indefinitely cuz I was stunned all the time, till I ran out of stamina, but at the same time I couldn't use a single skill, cuz the system thought I was still in cc.

There may be plenty of other bugs with CC immunity, but the immunity you get after using a CC break actually works.

As i said - if you have a video getting CC-ed within 8 seconds after using a CC break (as opposed to right after another CC expired) then post a video of it happening, because as far as i know, this (8 second CC immunity after break free) is one of the few things about the CC system that actually works reliably.

Sharee · November 2015

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Even with immovable potion and immovable (heavy armor skill line) active (and just after casting dark cloak and as many break frees as stamina was available), this one sees nothing but CCs you can't get out (in time) in PvP from any and all sources (4 different ones in the screenshot below)

PVP is getting ridiculous, where is this so called CC immunity?

There is exactly one breakable CC on the screenshot, and that is a shielded assault knockdown. I'm not sure what it is supposed to show.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · November 2015

Yes

ok my bad, should have worded it clearer (and yes now also realizes that critical rush isn't stampede though force pulse (lightning) can add concussion, which one may or may not consider a CC)
In any case: One CC you can't get out and then it' just bam bam bam all over the place.

And that goes for pretty much any death recap in PvP (hence nothing but...)

Btw, in the above case, that's with dark cloak on, so yeah, not being targetable by single target attacks while cloaked, so true, NOT.

And for the record, a video won't show mashing the break free button, so you comment is well intended, but showing a video won't proof a thing unless it's a video of someone playing (or cursing while doing so).
Secondly, the CC immunity is anything but 8 seconds. Would be nice if it were, but it ain't.

Sharee · November 2015

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

ok my bad, should have worded it clearer (and yes now also realizes that critical rush isn't stampede though force pulse (lightning) can add concussion, which one may or may not consider a CC)

Just to be clear, we are talking about hard CC (the one you can break out of using the break free ability). Neither stampede nor concussion can be broken free from (since stampede is just a snare).

In any case: One CC you can't get out and then it' just bam bam bam all over the place.

Well yes, but that has nothing to do with immunity not working. For immunity (or lack of thereof) to enter the picture, there need to be at least two CC's.

Btw, in the above case, that's with dark cloak on, so yeah, not being targetable by single target attacks while cloaked, so true, NOT.

You are only not targetable if your attacker cannot see you. All it takes for him to see you through cloak is a detection potion.

And for the record, a video won't show mashing the break free button, so you comment is well intended, but showing a video won't proof a thing unless it's a video of someone playing (or cursing while doing so).

A video of you being CC-ed right after using break free (which is what i was asking for) would show you breaking free, getting the immunity effect on you (swirls under your feet), then being affected by another breakable CC despite the swirls. Or, alternatively, show you breaking free and not getting those swirls. Both could be observed on the video.

Secondly, the CC immunity is anything but 8 seconds. Would be nice if it were, but it ain't.

It is only 8 seconds if you break free from a CC. If you let a CC expire, you get an automatical immunity, but that one is only 5 seconds(and is the one that's actually bugged/unreliable).

Here's a video of the CC break immunity, you can see it lasts 8 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfODZM4a-PQ

Leifnier · November 2015

Yes

Break free messes up like 50% of the time, and if you do manage to break out of something there are skills that just ignore immunity

Sharee · November 2015

[nevermind]

jebuspowers · November 2015

Yes

When I use break free I get cc'd almost immediately after. Immunity is broken and ZOS will probably not do anything.

On the other hand, I regularly see people being immune to my cc so maybe there is some sort of trick to it or something

Tomato · November 2015

Yes

I don't think they will ever respond to this thread.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · November 2015

Yes

Sharee wrote: »

Just to be clear, we are talking about hard CC (the one you can break out of using the break free ability). Neither stampede nor concussion can be broken free from (since stampede is just a snare).

You were talking about hard CC, the rest isn't.
But since you asked, here is a video first of a CC not working then of CC immunity being applied but running out

https://www.youtube.com/FYtg_NNhfKk
The interesting thing is that CC was running out after 4 seconds, but the cue for the CC was running for 4 more seconds.
As discussed before when breaking free, the animation takes so damned long as to be deadly to oneself
There simply is no chance of heals, potions or using any other skill

AfkNinja · November 2015

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

I experienced a templar in IC sewers CC me, to the point of no dodging or breaking free was possible and killed me. His damage was not very high, but his CC knowledge lead to my death a couple of times.

I honestly don't know what he used. I have also experienced a nightblade perma CC me a couple of times.

Yes I tried to rolldodge, break free and block. Nothing worked in either cases. Since they run pvp builds their damage is really pitiful, so I got time to try to break free, block and rolldodge.

I think you can do it with any CC that includes a knockdown so I bet it was Binding Javelin. You get CC immunity when you stand up from the knockdown, since they can just hit you with it again as you get up before CC immunity sets in they can keep you CC'd for days if timed correctly.

Mumyo · November 2015

reverberating bash... even ignores the stunnimmunity potion.

cote-bmsb16_ESO · November 2015

Yes

Suppose to be cc immune after break free, but nah.. Here have another cc, waste more stamina to get out or die.

Tomato · November 2015

Yes

Oh ZOS

Sharee · November 2015

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Just to be clear, we are talking about hard CC (the one you can break out of using the break free ability). Neither stampede nor concussion can be broken free from (since stampede is just a snare).

You were talking about hard CC, the rest isn't.

I beg to differ. This whole thread is about CC immunity. CC immunity only affects hard CC. Soft CC (roots, snares) neither triggers nor respects CC immunity.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

But since you asked, here is a video first of a CC not working then of CC immunity being applied but running out
https://www.youtube.com/FYtg_NNhfKk
The interesting thing is that CC was running out after 4 seconds, but the cue for the CC was running for 4 more seconds.
As discussed before when breaking free, the animation takes so damned long as to be deadly to oneself
There simply is no chance of heals, potions or using any other skill

First, thank you for posting a video. Showing what you think is broken goes a long way towards clearing any misunderstandings.

That being said, your video does not show CC immunity being broken. It shows you breaking free from the sorc stun (hard CC), then getting rooted by the nightblade's ambush (soft-cc). Root is not a hard CC, therefore immunities do not affect it.

In the video you comment "2nd time getting stunned", and how "second roll dodge is neccessary" - if you really were stunned, you wouldn't be able to roll dodge, you would have to CC break first(you cannot roll dodge while stunned).

People often think something is broken simply because they do not understand game mechanics yet.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · November 2015

Yes

Sharee wrote: »

First, thank you for posting a video. Showing what you think is broken goes a long way towards clearing any misunderstandings.

That being said, your video does not show you being CC-ed while your immunity is on. It shows you breaking free from the sorc stun (hard CC), then getting rooted by the nightblade's ambush (soft-cc). Root is not a hard CC, therefore immunities do not affect it.

You missed the Dawnbreaker of Smitting, which also can CC, at the same time of the ambush (soft cc) and the streak (hard cc)

Sharee wrote: »

In the video you comment "2nd time getting stunned", and how "second roll dodge is neccessary" - if you really were stunned, you wouldn't be able to roll dodge, you would have to CC break first(you cannot roll dodge while stunned).

That was when the second ambush happened. In your words "only a soft cc".
But the CC immunity for the potions states knock down and "disabling effects" not just only stuns (hard CC).
This one considers, not being able to move (which could be just a snare) and also not being able to use a skill a CC (soft or hard). And as it was ambush, which means this was an immobilize and not a snare, so not so soft a CC either.

In the end the fossilize (3rd CC) and the freaking long time to break free out of it while taking more damage (and the DOTs from before) got this one.

Sharee wrote: »

People often think something is broken simply because they do not understand game mechanics yet.

It would seriously help - probable even the developers at ZOS - to clearly state in the tooltip to which effects this immunity thing is actually applicable to and to which it is not. Like you are now immune to stuns, but not against immobilizes (like from ambush, which stuns in PvE but - according to the tooltip - 'only' immobilizes players for 1 second, instead of a 2 s stun)

Might make them aware just how many different counters you need for a few skills.

And given how fast paced things are and that often several different skills effect you at the same time, always picking the right one or even having to use several ... this simply makes CC too powerful and the need to break out of all of them to costly for too little gain.

In any case, any comment on the first seconds of the movie?
Where this one was sneaking and well hidden, then sniped his target, which should give a hard CC.
But no stun, break free or the CC immunity afterwards were visible on the target?

And yes, this one became visible for the next snipes, which then let to the rest of the fight.

And for the record:
Yes that was a single continues combat sequence, no cuts (just using slow motion at the end for better visibility)

Sharee · November 2015

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

But the CC immunity for the potions states knock down and "disabling effects" not just only stuns (hard CC).
This one considers, not being able to move (which could be just a snare) and also not being able to use a skill a CC (soft or hard). And as it was ambush, which means this was an immobilize and not a snare, so not so soft a CC either.

The only general rule is - if you can break free from it, then it respects CC immunity. Other than that, you just have to learn from case to case. For example, negate does not prevent movement or weapon skill use, yet it can be broken free from, and gives you immunity. Templar eclipse does not technically prevent anything, and it still can be broken free from and triggers immunity. Roots and snares can not be broken free from, therefore CC immunity does not affect them.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

It would seriously help - probable even the developers at ZOS - to clearly state in the tooltip to which effects this immunity thing is actually applicable to and to which it is not. Like you are now immune to stuns, but not against immobilizes (like from ambush, which stuns in PvE but - according to the tooltip - 'only' immobilizes players for 1 second, instead of a 2 s stun)

No argument there, it certainly could be communicated better.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

In any case, any comment on the first seconds of the movie?
Where this one was sneaking and well hidden, then sniped his target, which should give a hard CC.
But no stun, break free or the CC immunity afterwards were visible on the target?

I am fairly sure sneak attacks only stun when delivered from behind the target. When the arrow landed, you were in the sorc's frontal cone.

olsborg · November 2015

Yes

I quite regularly get double knockbacked or the cc immunity doesnt always help vs cc, its not often, but it does happen atleast once every game session.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · November 2015

Yes

Sharee wrote: »

I am fairly sure sneak attacks only stun when delivered from behind the target. When the arrow landed, you were in the sorc's frontal cone.

This one is pretty sure that's not correct, will give it some extra tests though, and in any case, being at 90° to the target's line of sight is not exactly what this one would call "frontal" cone.

More likely, since that one had a hardened ward (not very well visible with the mines below him) and/or other shields on, might not have critted or triggered the stun.
Could also have been due to that one jumping around and the effect does not trigger while in mid air.
The last would certainly explain, why some folks are always jumping when near a keep ....

In any case does not look like well understood and/or working as intended.

Sharee · November 2015

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

I am fairly sure sneak attacks only stun when delivered from behind the target. When the arrow landed, you were in the sorc's frontal cone.

This one is pretty sure that's not correct, will give it some extra tests though, and in any case, being at 90° to the target's line of sight is not exactly what this one would call "frontal" cone.

The game is fairly unsophisticated when it comes to determining 'front' and 'back'. Anything in the front 180 degrees is 'front', anything in the back 180 degrees is 'back'

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

More likely, since that one had a hardened ward (not very well visible with the mines below him) and/or other shields on, might not have critted or triggered the stun.

Shields most certainly do not make one immune to stuns. The only other explanation than the front attack(which i admit i am not 100% sure on) is that the sorc was blocking when the arrow hit him. It cannot be clearly seen, but you marked him before attacking giving him warning in advance, and he heard the arrow approach, so he could just block for a split second before the impact.

Karacule_Fairystar · November 2015

Kinda out of topic about CC immunity but
can you please changed the title? Kinda bugging me

And I'm bothered why do some, well "most" people I guess think its "1.7" update when we're already in v2.2.5 of TESOTU or Can you just call it UPDATE 7?

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · November 2015

Yes

Sharee wrote: »

It cannot be clearly seen, but you marked him before attacking giving him warning in advance, and he heard the arrow approach, so he could just block for a split second before the impact.

Not sure about the sound, but this one sure did not mark that sorc in advance, that must have been someone else...
In any case no cue visible about any sort of CC immunity there, soo ... at least that seems to be buggy one way or the other

And giving the fighting going on at the main door and the sorc taunting folks with his jumping or whatever, don't think he saw it coming (or heard it over the battle)

Sharee · November 2015

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

It cannot be clearly seen, but you marked him before attacking giving him warning in advance, and he heard the arrow approach, so he could just block for a split second before the impact.

Not sure about the sound, but this one sure did not mark that sorc in advance, that must have been someone else...

Yeah right, he was already marked. You did the animation for mark, but that one is shared with other abilities.

Anyway...

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

In any case no cue visible about any sort of CC immunity there, soo ... at least that seems to be buggy one way or the other

I just checked with NPC's. Snipe from the front does not stun, even if you fire it from stealth. Only snipe from the back does.
In the next video, i snipe the same mob type from stealth, first from the front, then from the back. You can clearly see the attack from the front carries no stun (the mob immediately retaliates) while the one from back does stun (the mob just stands there for 2 seconds).

https://youtu.be/dFJpH3OeGHw