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Should Sorc shields scale of health?
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ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No...The problem is for most classes by choosing magicka or stamina sacrifices are made.
A magicka templar wants to heal/dps? Say bye to any armor, no escape options, and put out less damage than your stam cousins.
Want to be stamina? Say good bye to heals and self sustain.
Magicka dk, say bye to any sort of damage that isn't a DoT.
Stam dk? Become a wrecking blow spammers that had no class skills.
Magicka nb? Give up damage in exchange for being a sap build with sustain.
Stam nb? Have vigor and rally as your only heals, become a burst ganker.
Magicka sorc? Just put everything into magicka , you get to be hugely tanky, have huge burst dps, have great sustain, and great mobility!
That's the issue.
Only believe the statistics you forged yourself, right?
As well you could say:
Magicka sorc? Give up heals on demand and healdebuff for a larger shield and more utility.
Or:
Stamina nb? Get high regen and weapon damage, you can now cloak near infinite, have strong heals, and put out the probably highest damage in PvP.
You need to argue logical, this isn't going to help anyone. That's the issue.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU4 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...Let's all stop pretending sorcs don't need a major nerf.
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Ezareth PvP on Youtube6 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'Health, Mana and Stamina need to be unlinked from damage. Stacking max magicka should only increase your resource pool not contribute damage. Unlink the resources and Hybrid builds will work again. No need to nerf Hardened Ward.
That wont really do anything other than lower the damage across the board if you think about it.
Not if you adjust the modifiers to account for not getting dmg from resources. The goal would be to separate your resource pool from dmg which would make your choices for HP/MP/STAM more important. Instead of being able to just stack 1 you would now have to think about your build. Once again, it would also reaaaaaally help hybrid's to return.
Then you have everyone who can running with as little resource as possible while having just enough regen to sustain for an infinite amount of time. (Yes and then they can actually stack some HP...or Stam for Break free...or MP for utility. Hybrid Stamina Templars would actually be able to use their heals...OH NOES!!)
What it would do is enable every class to go for an infinite sustain max dmg build except for sorcs while enabling them to run an extra chunk of hp because statpoints in resources would be a waste entirely. (Stat points in resources would not be a waste as you would still need a minimum amount of a resource to put up all your buffs, unless you stack nothing but regen. Also extra stamina for dodges, break fee and blocking leads to fights determined more by skillful play rather than which class can stack the same resource the best.)
You realize that every other defensive skill in the game scales of the dmg stat AND resource and that this is not a bad thing?
(It IS a bad thing, no softcaps means certain classes can stack nothing but one stat and get DEFENSE, DMG AND UTILITY all at the same time while other classes are screwed. Hybrids don't work because there is no soft cap. Also a lot of defensive skills scale with a stat that is not optimal leading to them being useless in the current meta such as Blazing Shield scaling with health, if we actually could stack HP without losing TONS OF DMG Templar might actually use the skill.)
It would not help hybrids a bit because they´d still be outperformed by someone only stacking 1 type of dmg.(Since your damage would only scale from Wep Power and Spells only from Spell power yes, someone stacking only wep dmg or only spell dmg would be better than a hybrid. BUT the hybrid would not be that far behind and that's the point. They sacrifice some dmg or some utility to get some of the other without totally gimping their build. As it stands right now if you don't stack all of your points into the same resource you are significantly weaker. Going Stamina Templar you lose the ability to effectively use any of your class heals, the game takes away your primary defense because of no soft caps. I either lose tons of dmg to make the heals passable, or I go full dmg and use NO HEALS effectively not being a Templar anymore. The game punishes us extremely hard for choosing a hybrid build. The problem is already here, you can disagree about the solution but the problem is already here.)0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No...@Darnathian Did you actually read my post or are you just reacting with a "my opinions counts too!!!". I agree, everyone has a right to an opinion. That doesn't protect your opinion from criticism.
Specifically go over the part regarding how Hardened and Blazing/Igenous are not parallels. Such a strong shield on those classes would undoubtedly be broken. Because those classes have other powerful and spammable mitigation and healing mechanics that Sorceror does not. DKs less so one skill and more a combination of amazing passives and synergy among various skills. Furthermore, those shields provide game changing additional benefits while hardened is literally just a shield and nothing more. What part about "this is sorcs exclusive mechanic by design" did you not comprehend?
Even if magicka Templars and DKs got a magika based shield, there's no way it should be any more than half of hardened ward in value, and even that is pushing it. Before you call me biased, understand that my first and favorite toon is a fire dk. Furthermore, I said nothing about the issue being addressed or looked into re: the state of shields in general. My posts are only regarding hardened ward as a skill. And as all the people who actually have experience on sorcs have been saying: It's not hardened ward that's the problem.
@Zornyan while I hear what you're saying, your examples are just awful. Magicka Templars don't need much armor when they can critically heal for 12k+. Stam dks might not use many class skills, but 2 class skills define that playstyle and are essential to it. Magicka NB give up damage? Guess you've never fought someone with 5k swallow souls then. Vigor and Rally are ANY stamina builds only heals, and it's one of the best healing combinations in the game period, so idk why you're acting like that's a bad thing. And it's only made more powerful with cloak. If we are actually following your logic here magicka sorcs make sacrifices vs their Stam counter parts too, be they smaller sacrifices than other classes.
Once again. Just remove shield stacking and see how tanky magicka sorcs are on the class' merit alone. It's not the class that's unbalanced, it's the mechanic. Just so happens sorcs benefit the most from this broken mechanic.Edited by CyrusArya on November 6, 2015 4:06PM0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'Vigor and Rally are ANY stamina builds only heals, and it's one of the best healing combinations in the game period, so idk why you're acting like that's a bad thing.
Yes however, each stamina class is not on equal footing when it comes to Rally and Vigor. Templar is dead last, see below:
Stamina Dragon Knight: Passives for +healing and Igneous Shield both stack with Rally and Vigor increasing their strength by up to 42%+. Long class shield, spiked armor 20+ seconds.
Stamina Sorcerer: Baseline Rally and Vigor but also has Critical Surge, Sorc's with high crit have a lot of healing potential. Long duration armor, 20-30 seconds.
Stamina NB: Also has passives which will effect Rally and Vigor. Class armor refreshes automatically for any ability used from shadow skill line.
Stamina Templar: No class passives effect Rally or Vigor, we get it at baseline only. Shortest duration class armor, 12 seconds, lasts only 8 seconds if you leave the rune.
Stamina Templar's are the worst class at self healing. Some of the logic used by ZOS when creating these classes is just wonky.0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No...ye that's true. Stamplars are probably the best PvE Stam build, definitely the worst PvP Stam build.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No...Health, Mana and Stamina need to be unlinked from damage. Stacking max magicka should only increase your resource pool not contribute damage. Unlink the resources and Hybrid builds will work again. No need to nerf Hardened Ward.
That wont really do anything other than lower the damage across the board if you think about it.
Not if you adjust the modifiers to account for not getting dmg from resources. The goal would be to separate your resource pool from dmg which would make your choices for HP/MP/STAM more important. Instead of being able to just stack 1 you would now have to think about your build. Once again, it would also reaaaaaally help hybrid's to return.
Then you have everyone who can running with as little resource as possible while having just enough regen to sustain for an infinite amount of time. (Yes and then they can actually stack some HP...or Stam for Break free...or MP for utility. Hybrid Stamina Templars would actually be able to use their heals...OH NOES!!)
What it would do is enable every class to go for an infinite sustain max dmg build except for sorcs while enabling them to run an extra chunk of hp because statpoints in resources would be a waste entirely. (Stat points in resources would not be a waste as you would still need a minimum amount of a resource to put up all your buffs, unless you stack nothing but regen. Also extra stamina for dodges, break fee and blocking leads to fights determined more by skillful play rather than which class can stack the same resource the best.)
You realize that every other defensive skill in the game scales of the dmg stat AND resource and that this is not a bad thing?
(It IS a bad thing, no softcaps means certain classes can stack nothing but one stat and get DEFENSE, DMG AND UTILITY all at the same time while other classes are screwed. Hybrids don't work because there is no soft cap. Also a lot of defensive skills scale with a stat that is not optimal leading to them being useless in the current meta such as Blazing Shield scaling with health, if we actually could stack HP without losing TONS OF DMG Templar might actually use the skill.)
It would not help hybrids a bit because they´d still be outperformed by someone only stacking 1 type of dmg.(Since your damage would only scale from Wep Power and Spells only from Spell power yes, someone stacking only wep dmg or only spell dmg would be better than a hybrid. BUT the hybrid would not be that far behind and that's the point. They sacrifice some dmg or some utility to get some of the other without totally gimping their build. As it stands right now if you don't stack all of your points into the same resource you are significantly weaker. Going Stamina Templar you lose the ability to effectively use any of your class heals, the game takes away your primary defense because of no soft caps. I either lose tons of dmg to make the heals passable, or I go full dmg and use NO HEALS effectively not being a Templar anymore. The game punishes us extremely hard for choosing a hybrid build. The problem is already here, you can disagree about the solution but the problem is already here.)
You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No...You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I would gain absolutely nothing apart from now stacking HP for a maxed shield instead of magica. You can already use stamina support skills on magica builds.
Nothing is going to help hybrid builds with your theory because stacking pure dmg is just going to be as much more effective as stacking dmg + resource is now.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭The problem is for most classes by choosing magicka or stamina sacrifices are made.
A magicka templar wants to heal/dps? Say bye to any armor, no escape options, and put out less damage than your stam cousins.
Want to be stamina? Say good bye to heals and self sustain.
Magicka dk, say bye to any sort of damage that isn't a DoT.
Stam dk? Become a wrecking blow spammers that had no class skills.
Magicka nb? Give up damage in exchange for being a sap build with sustain.
Stam nb? Have vigor and rally as your only heals, become a burst ganker.
Magicka sorc? Just put everything into magicka , you get to be hugely tanky, have huge burst dps, have great sustain, and great mobility!
That's the issue.
Only believe the statistics you forged yourself, right?
As well you could say:
Magicka sorc? Give up heals on demand and healdebuff for a larger shield and more utility.
Or:
Stamina nb? Get high regen and weapon damage, you can now cloak near infinite, have strong heals, and put out the probably highest damage in PvP.
You need to argue logical, this isn't going to help anyone. That's the issue.
Er healing ward? They have a much more reliable heal than crit surge, and crit surge isn't reliable in pvp since people have crit resistance.
Stam nb's can't cloak for infinity, I can use cloak 3 times on my stam nb, and stacking magicka regen will gimp you in other areas, not to mention cloak is being nerfed soon.
Sorcs have burst,sustain, heals, mobility AND defence all scale off of one stastic. It's stupid.
Oh and why do sorcerers get a flat 20% passive buff, yet templars get 10%? And how comes we get 4% cost reduction, and sorcerers get 15%?0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I would gain absolutely nothing apart from now stacking HP for a maxed shield instead of magica. You can already use stamina support skills on magica builds.
Nothing is going to help hybrid builds with your theory because stacking pure dmg is just going to be as much more effective as stacking dmg + resource is now.
I think you missed my point. I was not arguing to change your shield to HP like the other classes. I was arguing a separate point from the OP which is that I believe either soft caps need to come back or dmg should not be tied to resources (like every other MMO ever).
Without your resources determining your power what could a sorc do? Well you wouldn't need 40k magicka anymore so you could dump that into HP and Stamina leading toooooooo???? More defensive utility, your HP is higher making you harder to kill when your shield IS dropped. You could still focus your whole armor build to just Wep Dmg or Just Spell power but now you would actually have balanced resources and a reason to invest in them. Your stamina is higher making it easier to block, dodge and break free leading to skillful play being the determining factor in a fight not who has the most MP for the highest Burst DMG.
If you don't like my idea that's fine it is your right to disagree, but at least admit the way things are scaled right now unfairly punishes builds for doing anything but stacking dmg.1 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...The problem is for most classes by choosing magicka or stamina sacrifices are made.
A magicka templar wants to heal/dps? Say bye to any armor, no escape options, and put out less damage than your stam cousins.
Want to be stamina? Say good bye to heals and self sustain.
Magicka dk, say bye to any sort of damage that isn't a DoT.
Stam dk? Become a wrecking blow spammers that had no class skills.
Magicka nb? Give up damage in exchange for being a sap build with sustain.
Stam nb? Have vigor and rally as your only heals, become a burst ganker.
Magicka sorc? Just put everything into magicka , you get to be hugely tanky, have huge burst dps, have great sustain, and great mobility!
That's the issue.
Only believe the statistics you forged yourself, right?
As well you could say:
Magicka sorc? Give up heals on demand and healdebuff for a larger shield and more utility.
Or:
Stamina nb? Get high regen and weapon damage, you can now cloak near infinite, have strong heals, and put out the probably highest damage in PvP.
You need to argue logical, this isn't going to help anyone. That's the issue.
Er healing ward? They have a much more reliable heal than crit surge, and crit surge isn't reliable in pvp since people have crit resistance.
Stam nb's can't cloak for infinity, I can use cloak 3 times on my stam nb, and stacking magicka regen will gimp you in other areas, not to mention cloak is being nerfed soon.
Sorcs have burst,sustain, heals, mobility AND defence all scale off of one stastic. It's stupid.
Oh and why do sorcerers get a flat 20% passive buff, yet templars get 10%? And how comes we get 4% cost reduction, and sorcerers get 15%?
How do sustain and mobility scale with max magicka? Avoid sweeping generalisations if you want to maintain credibility. Other classes also enjoy burst, sustain, heals, mobility and defence.PC | EU1 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »The problem is for most classes by choosing magicka or stamina sacrifices are made.
A magicka templar wants to heal/dps? Say bye to any armor, no escape options, and put out less damage than your stam cousins.
Want to be stamina? Say good bye to heals and self sustain.
Magicka dk, say bye to any sort of damage that isn't a DoT.
Stam dk? Become a wrecking blow spammers that had no class skills.
Magicka nb? Give up damage in exchange for being a sap build with sustain.
Stam nb? Have vigor and rally as your only heals, become a burst ganker.
Magicka sorc? Just put everything into magicka , you get to be hugely tanky, have huge burst dps, have great sustain, and great mobility!
That's the issue.
Only believe the statistics you forged yourself, right?
As well you could say:
Magicka sorc? Give up heals on demand and healdebuff for a larger shield and more utility.
Or:
Stamina nb? Get high regen and weapon damage, you can now cloak near infinite, have strong heals, and put out the probably highest damage in PvP.
You need to argue logical, this isn't going to help anyone. That's the issue.
Er healing ward? They have a much more reliable heal than crit surge, and crit surge isn't reliable in pvp since people have crit resistance.
Stam nb's can't cloak for infinity, I can use cloak 3 times on my stam nb, and stacking magicka regen will gimp you in other areas, not to mention cloak is being nerfed soon.
Sorcs have burst,sustain, heals, mobility AND defence all scale off of one stastic. It's stupid.
Oh and why do sorcerers get a flat 20% passive buff, yet templars get 10%? And how comes we get 4% cost reduction, and sorcerers get 15%?
How do sustain and mobility scale with max magicka? Avoid sweeping generalisations if you want to maintain credibility. Other classes also enjoy burst, sustain, heals, mobility and defence.
Cast harness magicka, enjoy all your enemies hits (amd all but 1 ultimate) regenerating your magic, spam bolt escape and move from one side of a keep to another in a few split seconds.
I've seen sorcerers in pvp hit for 13k frags, whilst maintaining shields the size of their entire health bar, and lasting for well over 8 minutes of pure skill spamming
So for entire fights, they can maintain a high mobility skill (bolt escape) , maintain high defence (hardened ward ) and maintain high burst damage that's extremely cheap to cast (proc frags) .
Tell me how my stamplar gets great self healing compared to my magicka templar? Rally, a one time heal, or vigor, a HoT that doesn't benefit from any of my passives.
Or tell me this great self healing of stamblade in a 1v1 pvp ?
Or how about dragonknights? Since GDB is now useless with the heal debuff.
Tell me the great mobility and burst of a magicka dragon knight?0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'I think @AfkNinja sees the problem the way I see it. It isn't directly a Sorcerer problem really. The 'resource attributes' are playing double duty here, damage and resource pool. The same complaint people are making about hardened ward might be said of breath of life (though again one is a passive and another an active albeit difficult to interrupt action). If you segregate damage output from the base attributes m/h/s it means you can have more diversity in builds, and it also means the devs can more easily control power creep. At any regard the defense of the shield should be like it is for a sword and board player defense. It should be based upon the pool that you have at your disposal. In other words, if you want more efficient bubbles, they should find a way to reduce damage to bubbles with an enchantment, in addition to the initial magicka cost for raising it (in the same way there are enchantments to reduce the cost for blocking). Your blocks aren't more powerful with sword and shield just because you have a ludicrously high stamina. Its simply a pool that gets chipped away. The greater irony here between bubble-shields and the actual shield is the actual shield no longer gets stamina regen while it is being used. The bubble shield can be fired off ad nauseum? Which is more balanced? I think the answer is obvious, particularly when you consider that the bubble-shielder can keep on firing attacks, and a sword and shielder is limited to a short list of magical attacks, most of which have unimpressive damage. This is what I mean when I say the problem with offense/defense in this game is completely out of whack. Right now the cards are stacked heavily in favor of dps for everything, with very little incentive for playing the Tank role. I'll even go further and suggest they should have probably considered some mouse combinations like Skyrim (to compare to the parent tes games) had or an mmo like DCUO. Combos would have made the warrior role a lot more interesting than what it is now. I'm still hopeful they might consider developing combinations in this game. Its fun without it, but it would certainly be better, and suit the 'Warrior' aspect of things.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>1 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...FriedEggSandwich wrote: »The problem is for most classes by choosing magicka or stamina sacrifices are made.
A magicka templar wants to heal/dps? Say bye to any armor, no escape options, and put out less damage than your stam cousins.
Want to be stamina? Say good bye to heals and self sustain.
Magicka dk, say bye to any sort of damage that isn't a DoT.
Stam dk? Become a wrecking blow spammers that had no class skills.
Magicka nb? Give up damage in exchange for being a sap build with sustain.
Stam nb? Have vigor and rally as your only heals, become a burst ganker.
Magicka sorc? Just put everything into magicka , you get to be hugely tanky, have huge burst dps, have great sustain, and great mobility!
That's the issue.
Only believe the statistics you forged yourself, right?
As well you could say:
Magicka sorc? Give up heals on demand and healdebuff for a larger shield and more utility.
Or:
Stamina nb? Get high regen and weapon damage, you can now cloak near infinite, have strong heals, and put out the probably highest damage in PvP.
You need to argue logical, this isn't going to help anyone. That's the issue.
Er healing ward? They have a much more reliable heal than crit surge, and crit surge isn't reliable in pvp since people have crit resistance.
Stam nb's can't cloak for infinity, I can use cloak 3 times on my stam nb, and stacking magicka regen will gimp you in other areas, not to mention cloak is being nerfed soon.
Sorcs have burst,sustain, heals, mobility AND defence all scale off of one stastic. It's stupid.
Oh and why do sorcerers get a flat 20% passive buff, yet templars get 10%? And how comes we get 4% cost reduction, and sorcerers get 15%?
How do sustain and mobility scale with max magicka? Avoid sweeping generalisations if you want to maintain credibility. Other classes also enjoy burst, sustain, heals, mobility and defence.
Cast harness magicka, enjoy all your enemies hits (amd all but 1 ultimate) regenerating your magic, spam bolt escape and move from one side of a keep to another in a few split seconds.
I've seen sorcerers in pvp hit for 13k frags, whilst maintaining shields the size of their entire health bar, and lasting for well over 8 minutes of pure skill spamming
So for entire fights, they can maintain a high mobility skill (bolt escape) , maintain high defence (hardened ward ) and maintain high burst damage that's extremely cheap to cast (proc frags) .
Tell me how my stamplar gets great self healing compared to my magicka templar? Rally, a one time heal, or vigor, a HoT that doesn't benefit from any of my passives.
Or tell me this great self healing of stamblade in a 1v1 pvp ?
Or how about dragonknights? Since GDB is now useless with the heal debuff.
Tell me the great mobility and burst of a magicka dragon knight?
Harness Magicka returns about 500 magica per hit 3 times per cast. It barely pays for itself and isn't worth it if you have decent magicka regen. Which is why I have the other morph Dampen Magic unlocked. But I don't use it in pvp. It's also not a sorc skill. Shield stacking is a problem for magicka users in pvp and I definitely think it needs addressing. As I said I don't use dampen magic in pvp, just my class ward and healing ward when I get low.
You are confusing a whole bunch of issues, bundling them all up together and pinning the blame on hardened ward scaling off max magicka? Or are you just using this thread to vent frustration? Skill potency scaling with max magicka is one thing, the ability to have high regen is another thing, and sorcs mobility and utility is another thing still. All 3 thing are completely independent of each other and not exclusive to the sorc class.
As I said earlier; sorcs are not the only class to enjoy a combination of high burst, sustain, survivability, utility and mobility. What are you actually trying to say in this thread about wards scaling off health/magicka? Why are you comparing stamplars to mageplars in this thread? You say "show me this great self healing of stamblade" but where is the sorcs great self healing?You're not making sense, what you say sounds like a rant because you feel the class you play is weak. Are you saying nerf sorcs, or buff stamplars and magicka dks? Cos if it's the latter then you're wasting your time in the wrong thread.PC | EU2 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'I think @zornyan is trying to emphasize that stacking shields is only a symptom of the real problem which is resources contributing too much to DMG. Sorc should have to invest in more than just Magic to get Mobility, DPS, Defense etc but currently they don't. All classes should have to choose which area's to be strong in and balance, not stack one resource and get everything they need. They get all the cake and get to eat it too.1 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭I think @zornyan is trying to emphasize that stacking shields is only a symptom of the real problem which is resources contributing too much to DMG. Sorc should have to invest in more than just Magic to get Mobility, DPS, Defense etc but currently they don't. All classes should have to choose which area's to be strong in and balance, not stack one resource and get everything they need. They get all the cake and get to eat it too.
This man gets it.
As I've shown, with every class, you have to decide a certain route to play. And be willing to accept the weaknesses of that class/build, such as a dk lacking burst, both templars/dks lacking mobility, nightblades lacking defence etc (yes I know cloak is a kind of defence, but it's used mostly as an escape that is easily countered)
Now sorcs, all they have to do is stack magicka, nothing else, that one stat pool, gives them huge shields, which are enough for them to tank on, even vet dungeons, it gives them a spammable escape that also stuns, it gives them huge burst potential, and there's no downsides, there's no "oh if I just stack magicka I won't be able to escape"
Like say a stamblade has to accept he can only cloak twice before he's out of magicka.
Secondly look at sorcerers shields hardened ward, it scales stupidly high compared to all other shields, both class and non class, most shields cap at around 10k in pve, I've seen people with hardened ward at 14k in pvp.
So 3 TIMES the strength of all other shields in the game, I constantly hear the argument "we need massive shields or we die"
Well why don't templars have large class shields? Our already weak shield has been made usless, why don't DKs get a class shield that scales higher? Which makes more sense imo due to them being a defensive class.
Basically being a magicka stacking sorc, means you are both hugely tanky and have huge damage.
Personally scaling off health in general is bad, as per blazing shield, they need to simply reduce the scale of it, it should he 15k MAX outside pve, leaving it at 7.5k max in pvp (including bastion passives)
That would still be nearly double all other shields in the game, yet not be the size of one's health bar.
2 -
Hiero_Glyph✭✭✭✭✭@CyrusArya
The issue is that you are only looking at damage shields from a Sorc's perspective. Take magicka Templars where you say that if they get a magicka damage shield that it should be significantly lower than Hardened Ward. Alright, so currently the Templar's damage shields last for 6s compared to the Sorc's 20s. This means that they have to cast it immediately before they plan to take damage and the animation is quite awkward. So really they only have a 5s damage shield or must block or weapon swap to cancel which has its own drawbacks due to stamina regen and latency. The point being that the Templar's shield could be the same as the Sorc's but since it lasts less than 1/3 of the time it balances itself.
Also, the Templar's magicka damage shield would only prevent the need to heal upon taking damage the first time (preemptive mitigation); after taking damage the Templar is forced to decide which to cast but both prevent going offensive. Once you factor in the utter lack of mobility the Templar is in the same position they were previously with the only advantage being that they can avoid the first heal of the battle if they take damage inside the first 6s. This doesn't even factor in that BoL can hit up to 3 allies while Sun Shield is self-only. Yeah, a Templar version of Hardened Ward would be anything but OP.
I do agree that the mechanic is broken however.Edited by Hiero_Glyph on November 6, 2015 6:31PM2 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
Xeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
I would't necessarily call throwing some stam regen on a magicka sorc hybridization. It's a great idea if the opportunity cost isn't too high.
Edited by Xeven on November 6, 2015 7:39PM2 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.1 -
Masuimi✭✭✭You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).2 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Not missing the point at all actually. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka. Exactly, there is no room for variance because MP = DMG/DEFENSE/MOBILITY. I want MP to = resources only. Spell power should = dmg.
This would REWARD a Sorc for stacking resources other than just max mp. You would have a REASON to invest in HP or Stamina, you would BENEFIT from it. All classes would benefit and it would open up more options for build variety in my opinion. There are many ways they can adjust the scaling, that's up to the DEV team. I am just pointing out as it stands right now there are huge imbalances between classes and I think Soft Caps need to come back, or just remove resource dmg scaling. To much power creep goin on up in here.Edited by AfkNinja on November 6, 2015 8:27PM1 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
The screenshots of 45k hitting crystal frags Saya otherwise, tell me which stam ability does that much damage, as even the highest possible damage on a stamplar, with the single hardest hitting stam skill in the game, with a maximum of FOUR procs can only hit about 35k .
Hence why sorcerers are finishing vet maelstrom left right and center, just spam ward and frags =win.
0 -
Masuimi✭✭✭
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Not missing the point at all actually. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka. Exactly, there is no room for variance because MP = DMG/DEFENSE/MOBILITY. I want MP to = resources only. Spell power should = dmg.
This would REWARD a Sorc for stacking resources other than just max mp. You would have a REASON to invest in HP or Stamina, you would BENEFIT from it. All classes would benefit and it would open up more options for build variety in my opinion. There are many ways they can adjust the scaling, that's up to the DEV team. I am just pointing out as it stands right now there are huge imbalances between classes and I think Soft Caps need to come back, or just remove resource dmg scaling. To much power creep goin on up in here.
I was not specifically talking to you. I was more replying to the OP that shield should not scale off health.
The truth is, you can't do anything to lower a Sorc DPS right now, they are already behind stamina. Any changes made need to take this into consideration. Forcing a sorc to lower his damage in order to keep the shield is a terrible idea. It won't solve anything other than making sorc useless.Edited by Masuimi on November 6, 2015 8:34PM0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
I don't understand your concept of "Fair and Balanced". Why exactly is it you think that Magicka Sorcs stacking Magicka is so overpowered? Your argument doesn't make sense to me because it isn't true. Stamina Nightblades stack Stamina. Every class stacks their primary resource, Sorcs are not unique in that.
Sorcs no longer have the best mobility. In 1.6 I'd say they were tied with Nightblades in Medium Armor. Now in 1.6 Nightblades hold that spot or share it with *stamina* sorcs. My magicka sorc can't escape anything right now, I'm not as bad of as say a DK, but I'm a world apart from 1.6. I regularly get zerged down where before I could keep ahead of any zerg group almost indefinitely.
I'd say Sorcs *can* have the best burst and we have the only real useable class shield but what does that mean Sorcs are the most powerful class?
My build as far as Sorcs go *is* hybrid. I use Bloodspawn Shoulders for stamina regen. I use a Sword and Board and *destro* with no hardness magicka or healing ward. I can dish out some insane damage to bad players and some classes with specific builds (Magicka Templar + Streak Sorcs to be exact), but it has weakneses to many builds as well. 85% of my damage is reflectable or can be dodge rolled and the rest can be blocked. I have an absurdly small hitpoint pool and since I usually run drink in PvP my shields are not nearly as large as some other sorcs out there. That's about as hybrid as sorcs come if they want to be effective.
*NO* class in the game be effective with a Mix magicka/stamina build. Some templar was trying to fight me the other day using this kind of build and he was horribly easy to kill despite possessing some skill because he hit like a wet noodle and wasn't really effective at anything.
Everything has a trade off. Maxing your shields costs you regen and health. Yeah you get damage, and survivability with shield size but even that isn't true in a world with Shield breaker.
The people arguing about Sorc shields just don't understand the class and it's limitations very well. Play a Vet16 Sorc for a few weeks and come back and tell me how OP they are. I think they're as balanced as they've ever been. The Meta of 1.6 has passed and some people are still stuck there.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube3 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
The screenshots of 45k hitting crystal frags Saya otherwise, tell me which stam ability does that much damage, as even the highest possible damage on a stamplar, with the single hardest hitting stam skill in the game, with a maximum of FOUR procs can only hit about 35k .
Hence why sorcerers are finishing vet maelstrom left right and center, just spam ward and frags =win.
I regularly crit for 76K on my nightblade, what is a 45K Crystal frag to me?
No Sorc is critting for 45K in PvP *OR* PvE unless there are some stupid mechanics involved that are no probably or likely like a PvE Debuff on a mob or somerhing that ups your damage.
I regularly see larger wrecking blows crits on my Stamblade crit for more than my Crystal frag *procs* on my Sorc and my Sorc is running Shadow Mundus and 60 CPs into crit damage with 300 more spellpower than my NB has weapon power who is still using Warrior.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Really? Are we playing the same game? Lets see.
1) Passive that gives 5% mag redux, 5% stam redux, 15% Ultimate redux.
2) Passive that gives 20% health/stam regen (woah)
3) Disintegrate is like a cool version of burning light that procs off your boundless pretty lazily.
4) Bound Armaments increases max stamina and heavy attack damage.
5) Expert Mage Passive increases wpn/spll damage by 2% per sorc ability slotted: Its very easy (and normal) to slot 3 Sorc abilities, which already puts the Sorc on par with the Templar bonus. (boundless + bound armaments + Crit surge come to mind, exchange might be a good possibility for some builds, and then there are the ults which are definitely good). You can easily stack more weapon damage by doing 3 sorc skills + Flawless, with 2 weapon skills.
I don't really see how Sorcerers are by any means inferior when it comes to Stamina DPS, certainly not in the current build of the game.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'
"Every class stacks their primary resource, Sorcs are not unique in that." (Yes every class stacks almost 1 resource exclusively. I have a problem with this.)
My build as far as Sorcs go *is* hybrid. (How many Stamina skills do you use? None? Thought so.)
*NO* class in the game be effective with a Mix magicka/stamina/health build. (This is my point. There is literally no option to diversify or you ruin your build.)
Thank you for your response, I have enjoyed debating this issue.Edited by AfkNinja on November 6, 2015 8:56PM0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Really? Are we playing the same game? Lets see.
1) Passive that gives 5% mag redux, 5% stam redux, 15% Ultimate redux.
2) Passive that gives 20% health/stam regen (woah)
3) Disintegrate is like a cool version of burning light that procs off your boundless pretty lazily.
4) Bound Armaments increases max stamina and heavy attack damage.
5) Expert Mage Passive increases wpn/spll damage by 2% per sorc ability slotted: Its very easy (and normal) to slot 3 Sorc abilities, which already puts the Sorc on par with the Templar bonus. (boundless + bound armaments + Crit surge come to mind, bolt escape as well as exchange might be a good possibility for some builds, and then there are the ults which are definitely good). You can easily stack more weapon damage by doing 3 sorc skills + Flawless, with 2 weapon skills.
I don't really see how Sorcerers are by any means inferior when it comes to Stamina DPS, certainly not in the current build of the game.
edit:
6) I forgot to add the 10% Magicka regen that sorcs get passively. Its a bit ironic but actually sorcs get health/stamina regen higher than their magicka one. If anything this favors their stamina build.
One other quick point. The Stamina Sorcerer can pump out a higher base damage than a Templar with Balanced Warrior fairly easily, with only 3 class skills slotted (Which the templar would likely slot 3 skills anyway). The balance that pushes Sorc ahead is some of its other passives, and the fact Bound Armaments nudges Stamina higher, and heavy attacks higher. The one advantage the Templar might have over this Sorc, is that the Templar can click repentance off the fallen, but if the two were teamed up, I'd say the Sorcerer is definitely stronger. The Temp is probably a better farmer in pve because of repentance though.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0
