Talking about Bind on Pick up (Again)

Nifty2g · October 2015

I moved topic to General Discussion could you please close this post

So here's the main problem and sorry to come across as egotistical or whatever but I'm going to do it to get my point across (just warning you now, however this issue also applies to you just in different circumstances)

I'm in one of top PvE Raid Guilds in NA and I've completed and been #1 on leader boards for over a year now, since the longest time I used to sell the items I got from PvE content that many people couldn't really obtain or didn't want to do the content to obtain (PvP players). I used to sell gear from Veteran Dragonstar Arena as well a lot of people did so, it was an excellent way to provide gear to friends and a way to make gold. This doesn't just apply to me, this applies to the tanks who pick up Healer gear, this applies to the Stamina users who pick up Healer gear and Footman gear, this applies to people who already have their gear. Not to mention all of the gear within Trials (except last boss) were all Bind on Equip.

Now fast forward to the release of Imperial City,
2 New Dungeons |12 New Gear Sets | Random Traits | Low Drop Rates | Daedric Shackle Trophies | Daedric Ember Trophies | Imperial City Sewers

I had thought to myself there's really not much gear I want from these dungeons so before this content was released I thought to myself I'm going to help some people out, I go into the dungeons get a few pieces of Stamina gear but I don't really need it, it came Bound, you can't sell it you can't do anything with it, not only that but you get the perfect piece that someone in your group or friends list has been trying to get and you can't even trade them or sell the gear to them. Not only that but you can't sell or trade Daedric Shackles or Daedrick Embers. This causes a huge problem for the PvE player Zenimax, there is no income for PvE Content. None.

Now, lets talk about Imperial City Sewers; all the trophies are Bind on Equip, all the gear is Bind on Equip - see the problem this has created?

Now fast forward to the release of Orsinium
Solo Arena |10 New Gear Sets | Random Traits | Low Drop Rates

This isn't even out yet and I hope this is changed when it comes to Live that you make it work how Veteran Dragonstar Arena works, all the gear is Bind on Equip except for Masters Weapons, for obvious reason, not a lot of people will complete this dungeon, and not a lot of people will find half of this gear useful as some other people will but wont ever get it with this current system. I spoke to @Dymence about the gear to make sure and it's confirmed all the gear is Bind on Pickup in Arena.

This is quickly becoming a problem, no this isn't a thing of work for your gear, this is a problem for in game economy it's quickly dying down, there is zero ways to make gold for a strictly PvE player unless you decide to join everyone else in the Imperial City Sewers to grind mobs, which I don't understand if that content drops Bind on Equip sets but others don't?

Another reason this becomes a problem is because of the current in game prices like so

With the price of Ancestor Silk cost 10,000+ gold for 200 (which creates 1 piece of Armor), that would cost around 600,000 gold per player to create a 5 piece of armor (if you use undaunted 9, if you don't then it's 800,000)

TL;DR Get rid of Bind on Pickup from Solo and Group content you are utterly destroying ways to make gold for the PvE player. (22 new sets are BoP, that is a massive number)

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please rework the way Bind on Pickup is ....

Maulkin · October 2015

I'm not a PvEr at all and I feel for you. PvPers had it even worse with the IC update cause no one wants to buy old Ravager/Cyro Light stuff and you'd be lucky to get 10 crafting mats from Rewards of the Worthy for 4 hours of PvP.

All the money making in IC update was from farming zombies in the Sewers which is terrible.

They should make the Maelstrom Weapons BoP and the other sets BoE. Or at least make half the dropped sets BoP and the other half BoE.

That would at least release some items to wider market and help the economy.

Nifty2g · October 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I'm not a PvEr at all and I feel for you. PvPers had it even worse with the IC update cause no one wants to buy old Ravager/Cyro Light stuff and you'd be lucky to get 10 crafting mats from Rewards of the Worthy for 4 hours of PvP.

All the money making in IC update was from farming zombies in the Sewers which is terrible.

They should make the Maelstrom Weapons BoP and the other sets BoE. Or at least make half the dropped sets BoP and the other half BoE.

That would at least release some items to wider market and help the economy.

I just don't understand the reasoning behind this

The only efficient way to make gold is to run around killing zombies, but again that is very known now and doesn't end up working all that well, not only that but the drops have since then been nerfed from what it used to be.

timidobserver · October 2015

I like the Vet Dsa system. BoE Max level gear comes from the last rounds and the weekly. Maelstrom gear remains BoP.

Joy_Division · October 2015

I have not tried the PTS, but if you can get these sets just by doing the non Arena PVE stuff like killing world bosses, then I do understand their decision: the need to get us to buy the DLC and killing world bosses/exploring the zone is something that even "casual" players are more than capable of doing. If this is the case, then I highly doubt they are going to change the decision because they need people buying the DLC and making the stuff accessible without doing end-game content is in their mind enough of a compromise for "reward" sets.

Not that I necessarily agree - you are looking at someone who completed over 200 DSA runs and never sniffed an inferno staff - but seems to be the reality of B2P. And they have done an OK job not making this B2win.

I do wish they would give crafters some sort of option to do something with these sets to make them more appealing or derive SOMETHING from the ones we don't want (which will be most).

Wreuntzylla · October 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

So here's the main problem and sorry to come across as egotistical or whatever but I'm going to do it to get my point across (just warning you now, however this issue also applies to you just in different circumstances)

I'm in one of top PvE Raid Guilds in NA and I've completed and been #1 on leader boards for over a year now, since the longest time I used to sell the items I got from PvE content that many people couldn't really obtain or didn't want to do the content to obtain (PvP players). I used to sell gear from Veteran Dragonstar Arena as well a lot of people did so, it was an excellent way to provide gear to friends and a way to make gold. This doesn't just apply to me, this applies to the tanks who pick up Healer gear, this applies to the Stamina users who pick up Healer gear and Footman gear, this applies to people who already have their gear. Not to mention all of the gear within Trials (except last boss) were all Bind on Equip.

Now fast forward to the release of Imperial City,
2 New Dungeons |12 New Gear Sets | Random Traits | Low Drop Rates | Daedric Shackle Trophies | Daedric Ember Trophies | Imperial City Sewers

I had thought to myself there's really not much gear I want from these dungeons so before this content was released I thought to myself I'm going to help some people out, I go into the dungeons get a few pieces of Stamina gear but I don't really need it, it came Bound, you can't sell it you can't do anything with it, not only that but you get the perfect piece that someone in your group or friends list has been trying to get and you can't even trade them or sell the gear to them. Not only that but you can't sell or trade Daedric Shackles or Daedrick Embers. This causes a huge problem for the PvE player Zenimax, there is no income for PvE Content. None.

Now, lets talk about Imperial City Sewers; all the trophies are Bind on Equip, all the gear is Bind on Equip - see the problem this has created?

Now fast forward to the release of Orsinium
Solo Arena |10 New Gear Sets | Random Traits | Low Drop Rates

This isn't even out yet and I hope this is changed when it comes to Live that you make it work how Veteran Dragonstar Arena works, all the gear is Bind on Equip except for Masters Weapons, for obvious reason, not a lot of people will complete this dungeon, and not a lot of people will find half of this gear useful as some other people will but wont ever get it with this current system. I spoke to @Dymence about the gear to make sure and it's confirmed all the gear is Bind on Pickup in Arena.

This is quickly becoming a problem, no this isn't a thing of work for your gear, this is a problem for in game economy it's quickly dying down, there is zero ways to make gold for a strictly PvE player unless you decide to join everyone else in the Imperial City Sewers to grind mobs, which I don't understand if that content drops Bind on Equip sets but others don't?

Another reason this becomes a problem is because of the current in game prices like so

With the price of Ancestor Silk cost 10,000+ gold for 200 (which creates 1 piece of Armor), that would cost around 600,000 gold per player to create a 5 piece of armor (if you use undaunted 9, if you don't then it's 800,000)

TL;DR Get rid of Bind on Pickup from Solo and Group content you are utterly destroying ways to make gold for the PvE player. (22 new sets are BoP, that is a massive number)

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please rework the way Bind on Pickup is ....

I am a PvP player forced with 100 of my closest friends into PvE content by IC, without the time to do both, and I approve of this message.

And please get back on the crown store race changes. I'm tired of being patient.

<Insert random threats of leaving the game for Hello Kitty Online or similar games>

Nifty2g · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

I have not tried the PTS, but if you can get these sets just by doing the non Arena PVE stuff like killing world bosses, then I do understand their decision: the need to get us to buy the DLC and killing world bosses/exploring the zone is something that even "casual" players are more than capable of doing. If this is the case, then I highly doubt they are going to change the decision because they need people buying the DLC and making the stuff accessible without doing end-game content is in their mind enough of a compromise for "reward" sets.

I do wish they would give crafters some sort of option to do something with these sets to make them more appealing or derive SOMETHING from the ones we don't want (which will be most).

I believe 3 useless sets drop from world bosses, unsure if they are BoE or BoP
This isn't a way of promoting DLC, if it is then they are doing a very bad job about it as this is inevitably going to ruin the games health, once I (and everyone else if they haven't already) drop down in gold there is no way for me to get more unless I mindlessly grind sewers, and I among others probably won't do that.

kojou · October 2015

As someone who cant get Scathing Mage armor because no one will run ICP with me I support this post.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

It isn't obvious why Maelstrom weapons should be bound.

Cinnamon_Spider · October 2015

I agree completely. I pretty much accepted that I won't get any of the new dungeon sets (aside from my Kena helm), especially after seeing hiw many times Bee ran for one. I sub and have access to the content, but the grind is over the top. I just put together my sets without those ones in mind.

Xjcon · October 2015

I'm opposed to the idea of everything being BOE, but if they changed it to BOE I would make a pile of gold. I just think BIS gear is better served if the players have to play the game to get it, not just swipe the CC at some 3rd party gold sellers site.

Stalwart385 · October 2015

The arena will cost you a lot of money in repairs, food, pots and time but has no way to make money. People will be loosing money like crazy trying to run it. Whatever they do they need to make the solo arena have some way to make money.

I remember in vDSA if you had a bad run that took a long time and you used a lot of pots, everything would be made up for if you pulled a healer ring.

If they don't make the gear BOE they should at least have VR16 mats in the chest to even out the cost to run it.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

Long grinds just don't work as an incentive anymore @ZOS_RichLambert .

One theory that seems to be at work is that if development ties a carrot to the end of a stick then players will strap on that stick and be fine chasing the carrot.

What actually happened is that a piece of unappetizing cauliflower was tied to the end of a telephone pole and it turns out that the players aren't actually rabbits, but are carnivorous dinosaurs who are going to eat anyone that tries to strap that telephone poll to them. That is itemization in this game.

tengri · October 2015

I like that supposed "elite" players can not monetize everything they "earn". I like that a lot actually.
Yes, even more stuff should be BoP...

timidobserver · October 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

It isn't obvious why Maelstrom weapons should be bound.

Sometimes you have to compromise. It isn't like they are going to make every single thing that drops in the DLC BoE because that removes too much incentive from purchasing the DLC. Having all of the gear sets BoE and the Maelstrom weapons BoP is a good balance, given that we've already seen that setup work just fine in DSA.

Nifty2g · October 2015

tengri wrote: »

I like that supposed "elite" players can not monetize everything they "earn". I like that a lot actually.
Yes, even more stuff should be BoP...

It's not just the elite players, it's everyone.

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 · October 2015

I have to agree, Bind on Pick Up is killing the game's economy and making it impossible for people to acquire a full set of the gear they really want. I'm not advocating that everything be sellable, such as monster masks or master weapons, but the equipment coming out of Imperial Prison and White Gold Tower should be, in my opinion.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

It isn't like they are going to make every single thing that drops in the DLC BoE because that removes too much incentive from purchasing the DLC.

Well, from a perspective of DLC purchases I'm not sure of where the line should be drawn. Certainly there will be players, such as Nifty, that would like to sell their winnings and who may gain more interest in the DLC if they are able to do so. I mean, I'm not interested in Maelstrom weapons whatsoever since the tanking one sucks and being able to sell them would be a reason to spend hours of time in an arena that I don't want to struggle through otherwise.

I also don't necessarily think that a game update should be anticipated mostly because of it's itemization. Of course there should be new items for people to be excited for, but what about wanting to play a DLC for it's combat or story? I'm just a little wary of chase sets that players must have for whatever reason - I witnessed that mentality destroy the level of depth that Yu-Gi-Oh! used to have.

Many deep mechanics of that game fell by the wayside once the developers focused on getting players to buy packs for cards that had a sharp power level increase compared to the old cards. Even though such a move was probably good for sales, that move wasn't necessarily good for how interesting and fun the game was.

It is possible the same could be said about BOP. "We sold more copies of our DLC, but a bunch of people still don't like the direction of many game aspects."

Personofsecrets · October 2015

@ZOS_RichLambert , is it too late to compromise about stam regen while blocking? Are we done compromising with the Maelstrom tanking set now or are you still going to work on it?

If I had my way there would be no compromise, I wouldn't be abusing a single passive ability to tank, and the Maelstrom tanking weapon would be be really cool. So much for compromise.

Nifty2g · October 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert , is it too late to compromise about stam regen while blocking? Are we done compromising with the Maelstrom tanking set now or are you still going to work on it?

Can you not bring that in here, make a thread maybe?
I just don't want this to get too off topic

Personofsecrets · October 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert , is it too late to compromise about stam regen while blocking? Are we done compromising with the Maelstrom tanking set now or are you still going to work on it?

Can you not bring that in here, make a thread maybe?
I just don't want this to get too off topic

Don't get so touchy. I hope to illustrate that compromise isn't always something that the developers are willing to do. I hope you do get a compromise with whatever you want though. You got better drop rates for IC dungeons, albeit the change was handled slowly, and you might just help get better Maelstrom drops to.

Nifty2g · October 2015

Any word from @ZOS_GinaBruno in regards to why gear is BoP, I think make all the rings in solo arena BoE and to make Imperial City Prison and White Gold Tower BoE or at least the trophies...

Zilch · October 2015

I would assume many things in the game are BoP, because Zenimax is of the belief that making gear harder to get for each individual player (random item + random trait + random armor type + lowsy drop rates = bad), makes people invest more time in the game and end up playing for a longer period of time.

They're afraid of people getting the gear too fast and end up being bored of the game.

I would personally love more things to be BoE, not only to help the economy, but it would also provide a feel of freedom for the players, as they are not forced into doing things, they don't wanna do, to get new interesting gear.

olsborg · October 2015

I dont support bound on pickup at any rate, why get something that you might not even want to use, ever..and all you can do is decontruct it and noone will ever enjoy the item, and you cant sell it for atleast some profit for doing some hard content.

Meshal · October 2015

That's what i've been saying since IC, making all armor bind on pickup is ridiculous! it's just their stupid way of "making" us buy the dlc. it really hurts the game economy and it makes everything in the game to turn into a useless grind.

Kas · October 2015

i agree so much. futher i'm sitting on tons of kena hats, three sets of overwhealming with perfect traits, scthign mage if close to perfoect traits and all i want is spc, which i a STILL far form completung.

the guys i run with want stuff i have but deconstruct spc all the time. this really ruins the game for me.

Pandras · October 2015

I would suggest Tradeable on Pickup. This way valuable pieces would not swarm the market but it would be possible not to wait 10000 runs for the focken last piece of a set.

olsborg · October 2015

"Play as you want" they said.

So some of the strongest set pieces out there can only be looted through pve, and moreso, group pve. What about those of us who only want to pvp and/or solo or duo play?....schmay as you schmant!

Personofsecrets · October 2015

Zilch wrote: »

I would assume many things in the game are BoP, because Zenimax is of the belief that making gear harder to get for each individual player (random item + random trait + random armor type + lowsy drop rates = bad), makes people invest more time in the game and end up playing for a longer period of time.

They're afraid of people getting the gear too fast and end up being bored of the game.

I would personally love more things to be BoE, not only to help the economy, but it would also provide a feel of freedom for the players, as they are not forced into doing things, they don't wanna do, to get new interesting gear.

The development team probably does intend for that effect and I have to wonder if it works for them or if people find the carrot too unappetizing to chase.

Short story:

I was hoping to achieve either the Draugr Heritage set or the Leeching Plate set for the use with a Sanctum group where I thought the healing was a bit too low.

I found very few people to do vICP with and even some of the groups that did get together would fail. I managed to get a bunch of medium armor set pieces for my efforts. I don't really care to do this dungeon since it hasn't paid out with anything that I am interested in.

In the same period of time I put in effort to grinding dolmens and would invite my friends to join me if the Titan boss, which drops the armor I was after, spawned. Dolmen are easy enough to do, decent experience, and eventually, because of bind on equip status of set items, I was able to coax more people into doing them with me. I didn't get a single piece to drop for myself, but have the whole set because I was able to buy it from the people who were nice enough to help me.

Perhaps I am no longer doing dolmens and that may go some distance in driving home the point that items should be bind on pickup for the purpose of long term interest in the game. My issue with that notion comes from my experience with Imperial City Prison. For all of that dungeons challenge and for all of the cool bind on pickup gear it has, so few people care to do that dungeon to the point that I can't regularly go in there. Maybe bind on pickup was intended to make the dungeon interesting for a longer period of time, but because of bind on pickup players have even less of an incentive to go in that place. I guess the opposite holds true of dolmens. People had absolutely no reason to drop what they were doing, travel a non-homed campaign in Cyrodiil, and defeat a dolmen boss, other than helping me out and earning 300k for their efforts.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

Meshal wrote: »

That's what i've been saying since IC, making all armor bind on pickup is ridiculous! it's just their stupid way of "making" us buy the dlc. it really hurts the game economy and it makes everything in the game to turn into a useless grind.

Were not players supposed to be under the impression that they wouldn't have to buy the DLC to get the items they wanted? As silly as it may have been to believe such a thing, wasn't something said by a developer, maybe on ESO Live, to the effect that people wouldn't have to buy the DLC for items as a way of not implementing pay to win?

Redfer · October 2015

Especially for older content there shouldn't be BOP at all. It's not encouraging people to rerun old vet dungeons for a chance at a worm cult set piece, and It's sure as hell not encouraging me to run the same dungeons over and over for things that don't directly benefit me! Because if I'm running with a friend who wants say a worm cult hat, and I get it, the best I can do is give him the mats that I got from deconing it.
Another example: When my group was still grinding vWGT we all wanted different sets, which was a struggle with the drop rates. On my healer I wanted spc and ended up with 3 full imperium sets that the tank wanted to try and 4 full infused overwhelming sets the dps wanted. I got 1 wel-fitted belt in spc. Losing days of money and time, as well as incentive to do the content.
I now have no reason to do the new content because I a) don't need the gear, b) cant sell the gear and c) cant give the gear to a friend who doesn't have as much time as me. So once I have the new acheivements, I likely won't be doing any of the new content. It's just not really worth the time IMHO because I can just get a friend who buys the DLC to craft me the few sets I'd want from this update.