Islyn wrote: »

Uber_Lord wrote: »

Im VR16 and I honestly see no difference. VR16 or level 100 whats the difference? Those 2 words Veteran Rank are quite gimmicky and meaningless. I suposse to look cool for the kids? Same goes with HP and damage increase in tenths of thousands? What's the purpose? To look silly and "cool" for the kids? What's next 400,000 Health and 100k DPS?
I much more prefered the smaller stat numbers back then. Keep it simple, stupid!
Why do somethings for no functional reason?

Yeah exactly exactly!

I only think it will take SO MUCH TIME for something that won't really matter - i don't actually care what my lvls are called and people Keep Thinking I am putting it down because of them.

I am just saying: Omg - bugs, lag, loadscreen, bugs and content. Then totally pointless at this point, changes.

But this is the point. When people say they don't want VR ranks they are not talking about the name of levels, they are talking about not wanting to play three individual storylines on one character. They still want progression and new content.

Islyn wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

VR's are an illusion to bypass the lack of content, nothing more.

No, locking areas to lvl is that.

The should just unlock Silver and Gold or whatever.

There is LOADS of content but let's face it, most people are quite literally too lazy to do it all and only do main story stuff, then try to grind and get bored of that too then complain.

I have ENOUGH v14s on NA gotten when it was actually hard, to know what I am talking about and I am not putting anyone down.

I am saying: This here, is not a grind and removing vet ranks is just pointless busywork when there are other things devs could be doing. Like MORE CONTENT.

How is repeating the same quests that I already done on my main not a grind? Laziness has absolutely nothing to do with it. Not wanting to quest is not laziness any more than not wanting to PVP is. An MMO should be built around lore, and ensuring that your players are doing what they want to be doing. VR breaks both. I don't want to go through another factions quests on a character. If I want to go through the story of another faction I will roll an alt and do so.

I would love VR if they were factionless area's with no repeating other faction storylines, but they're not and therefore are out of place.

You are so wrong to say it's down to laziness, you simply can't look beyond your own playstyle and accept that other people want different things out of an MMO. It's the epitome of tunnel vision. I also leveled characters through the early months and it was a pointless grind that ruined any interest I had in Alts playing through quests. It's ONLY saving grace was the difficulty of combat, oh but they ruined that.

Edit: and by the way, when I say remove faction quests I mean by replacing it with new content that is relevant to my faction.

Sorry you misunderstand me I think.

People have to level no matter how they do it or what the levels are called.

You will not just POOF to max and getting CP is the same difference as anything else.

The LORE is in the QUESTING (seriously?) and you can grind.

Getting rid of VR Levels will not magically make a load of new content. You will still be left with grind, quest or pvp. There's no 4th way.

Of course there is a 4th way.

It's like this: Instead of adding a new map for a while they work on new content in the world we already have. So when you hit level fifty you unlock the rest of Tamriel as it is, but instead of just changing factions you have new quests to level up with. Quests that are relevant to your own factions. Like spying and espionage. (I also think they should split their server into two and have an open world PVP realm and a PVE realm that you can freely move between, but that's another point really.)

This is why I started with it's not the VR's that are the problem. It is the concept of going back in time and doing everything again through the eyes of your enemy. Why would anyone want to do that? It's treacherous.

When people say they want VR removed they are not talking about the name of levels, they are talking about regurgitating quests not designed for them, I.E other factions stories, that's all.

Islyn wrote: »

Sorry you misunderstand me I think.

People have to level no matter how they do it or what the levels are called.

You will not just POOF to max and getting CP is the same difference as anything else.

The LORE is in the QUESTING (seriously?) and you can grind.

Also I don't have one playstyle. I do all the things.

Getting rid of VR Levels will not magically make a load of new content. You will still be left with grind, quest or pvp. There's no 4th way.

NOT removing VR levels and creating instead more content will create more content.

I agree..."just" removing VR is not necessarily fixing the issue, but from a grander perspective I think that this is simply one step of many that they are making in the transition to the picture they have of what elder game should be. There are many optional paths. Keep as is (odd and weird but OK), remove VR and keep CP only, perhaps remove both and make the actual process a 1-66 (or IMO 70...not sure why it went to 16 such an odd number). every other MMO out there does it.

Or perhaps they're trying to migrate to a more open paradigm (much like PoE and Diable 3 as an example). or perhaps something even more complex.

I could see why people would prefer to just leave it "as is" and add new content. But in all honesty, in spite of how much I like new content, it's not always the most balanced answer. Mostly because it's becoming pretty well know in the MMO industry that there are players out there who will chew up content much much faster then developers can make it. So most MMO's are looking at alternatives to give players stuff to do, without having to resort to the content wheel, which is a huge money sink for them. We as players love it, but it's a budget killing approach for a developer team who has to meet budget thresholds or lose things (people, jobs, etc.).

Either way I see this transition as just part of the whole. Were probably doing a bit of overkill in analyzing it from such a pivotal perspective. Really it's about having a system that is streamlined and effective. There certainly are times that it's important to add new stuf, and there are times when it's important to be more "efficient" and to streamline processes, and it seems they're taking this time to do this with the Veteran, or Elder, game. at some point it should be done, and IMO sooner rather then later. I'm sure they're lots of players (many who already went through the process) that want content. but for most leveling and returning players, and those leveling alts, they will want that transition to be smoother.

This is all outside of the silver/gold debacle. I think most people if given the option would prefer to have the option to skip Caldwell's offer, or at the least have it on the side. Or pick your next leveling area. It has nothing to do with laziness, and everything to do with choice. I dont' want to be stuck in the next starting zone, struggling to fight a beach crab that could very possible kill my vr1, when my lvl 4 alt breezed through the same area yesterday...killing 2-3 at a time.

Optional? sure. As someone stated earlier, make it battle leveling. balance the new areas as they balance the new DLC content. and, above all else, MAKE THEM ALL SINGLE ZONES. I hate the fact that my vr1 is in some "alternate reality" where I'm not playing with the 1-50's. It's silly, game breaking, and isolationist. with the changes to the game (allowing anyone to start anywhere with any race), the artificial barriers of the past are just that...artificial, and they need to disappear. it would not only give us more people to play and quest with, but it would bring back the feeling that you are actually in an MMO.

adriant1978 wrote: »

Because I have a lot of alts and neither the time nor patience to individually grind them all to VR16.

CP are account-wide, so I'd rather see those used for itemization post-level 50.

This right here. I have three Alts, one of each class. I want to be able to use all of them at some point at endgame. Currently my Main isnt even Max. Although Id probably have him at Max if I wasnt trying to establish Alts with particular setups and crafting that will supplement each other.

I dont mind rank increases. Ive played enough MMOs to be alright with that sort of thing. But what I dont agree with is asking me to level up my characters essentially 3 times + Craglorn and IC rank increases. The CP system should of been apart of the game from the start. It would of allowed players to have accessed the other factions (Which Im opposed to as an MMOer as it takes away that particular Factions uniqueness) and had something to earn while doing said factions content. Instead of arbitrarily adding 10 VR ranks that only served to unlock stronger and stronger gear.

I just gotta say "wow" at the response rate of this thread. Nine hours and six pages.

I am sure that someone has already said it, but because of the enormous amount of people that have left the game citing the veteran system as their reason for leaving. Entire guild of 200+ people were collapsing at launch because many people didn't not like the Veteran system.

I petition that we keep it not remove it

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

Which brings jealousy and fustration. The game is meant to be enjoyed not to be forced.

I always thought jealousy and frustration were secondary or even tertiary emotions that are due to deeper core issues, but can be triggered by any number of things. I don't mean to downplay or marginalize one's feelings, but this is a game and nobody is forcing anyone to do anything or feel any particular way.

Just look at the nerf thread, its a sign of jealousy and frustration.

Now, don't take the wrong impression.( that I dont get envious of any thing to do with this game but I do sometimes get frustrated of leveling up a veteran.)

Tannakaobi wrote: »

When people say they want VR removed they are not talking about the name of levels, they are talking about regurgitating quests not designed for them, I.E other factions stories, that's all.

Much as I thought the day would never come in which I would find myself agreeing with @Tannakaobi... here it is.

VR wasn't just a pain for me because of the length of it, but because it felt so monumentally contrived.

The IC explanation for Cadwell's Silver and Gold was, and always has been in my opinion, horrendous and problematic.

Seeing things from the other person's point of view was a possibility. It is far harder to accept the possibility when some of the missions undertake have you actively working in opposition to your original faction. You may even end up facing the "what if" of killing soldiers whose lives you worked to save earlier on in your faction storyline. How can this be considered well thought out or coherent?

No. Just no.

After Coldharbour, open up Tamriel (no silver or gold locks), and then offer people the choice to undertake quests that either further the aims of their Faction in those areas, or become a traitor (with all that entails) and work against them, or elect to take the middle road and just seek to reduce the suffering of the common people of Tamriel... or let them abandon questing entirely.

ZOS, please make it reasonably equally viable to gain CPs through questing, grinding, doing trials, PvP or whatever other play styles are actually reflected, to significant degree, in the population... and then actually follow through on your stated aim and kill VR. With fire.

F7sus4 wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

Because I have a lot of alts and neither the time nor patience to individually grind them all to VR16.

CP are account-wide, so I'd rather see those used for itemization post-level 50.

Then don't have "a lot of alts". That's not enough reason to strip the game into 20-hour 100% completed leveling cakewalk party.

Champion points are there to replace veteran ranks, that is what they were designed for.

F7sus4 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Some of the things that need to be very carefully considered when removing vet ranks:

• Skill/attribute points earned per vet rank: what will happen with the ones people already earned? Will they lose them? If so, how will they be kept from being pissed off? If not, will newer players be able to get those skill/attribute points? If so, how? If not, how will they ever "catch up" with those players who were VR16 before vet ranks were removed?
• Itemization: will all of the tiers of crafting mats & equipment VR1-16 be combined into one tier? If so, what will happen with the existing items, and how will the crafting skills be changed to reflect the new scale of tiers? If not, what will distinguish one tier from the next? Will every single crafting skill need to be completely overhauled?
• Scaling: how will dungeons and similar instances be scaled? Will it be based on CPs? If so, how will the scaling be different for a level 10 with 501 CPs compared to a level 50 with 501 CPs, or a level 50 with no CPs?

Those are the exact same reasons I'm shouting about for 6 months now (when 90% of community was actually positive about VR removal). You simply can't remove VR and not screw up the whole in-game itemization. The game is good as it is now. Yes, everyone had enough time to have his fully optimized VR16 character developed. And I don't care if you want to have 8/8 VR16 characters. If you do, take your time. If you don't want to do so, give up on having 8/8. It's like "I want 8 Ferraris, but I don't want to earn money for them, I want the producer to give them to me for free."

NOPE!

This is a GAME, Not a Job. Veteran Ranks were meant to be OPTIONAL. Having Gear and content for VR 16 and only VR 16 defeats the point of OPTIONAL, Hence why it is being removed. I really do not see what people are moaning about. You still can do Silver and Gold, You still get champion points and you still get to keep everything you have earned. Only thing that is going away is the Grind that prevents a lot of players from continuing this game past 50.

Sure you can say "Well if you don't like it don't do it" but when the End Game is geared toward veteran rank and 90% of the player base do not wish to grind to max rank, Well something has to go. Sure they could cater to the 10% and make a game based on what they want, But when the 90% leaves there will not be enough income to sustain the 10% perfect gaming world. So in the end they lose their veteran ranks anyways...and their game.

One of the reasons why I want the Veteran Ranks to be gone is Cadwell's story telling. I don't want to be a pretender when I'm travelling through enemy territories. I want to feel like I'm trespassing. Currently, that's what is bugging me about the Veteran levelling. They can update the storyline to feel like more immersive. Things like giving us options to invade, explore or be a travelling merchant. Invading part would be PVE based of course, attacking to enemy NPCs and such as part of quests.

The other thing is that I want to see content more than just levelling up. Here are few examples; crafters would have the option of becoming a travelling merchant by obtaining a caravan or they would buy a forge, inn or the-like and their job would be making their cooking famous and satisfying; there would be more exploration stuff by discovering ancient ruins, more lore or artefacts.

When developers (in general) stop investing their resources on levelling, they would start to think outside the box and create a lot more interesting content based on existing skills. That's my theory anyway.

What they can do with levelling is that remove it all together and keep skills as the primary levelling. However, to obtain the attribute points there would a Maelstrom Arena style from Orsiunium. There would be three trials: wisdom for magicka increase, endurance for health increase and dexterity for stamina increase. Players would only be able to choose 1 point, up to 64. Why 64? Levelling from 1 to 50 gives 49 and Veteran Rank levelling from 1 to 16 gives 15 attribute points. 49 +15 = 64. The dungeons and raids would be available depending on the attributes you have earned. In addition, once you have obtained all attribute points for one character, you don't have to do this arena style again. Just re-spec through money. Also, the main quest storyline would be unlocked by levelling the skill of a class spec to the required level that unlocks each main storyline. Of course they don't have to take this on board. Its just a suggestion and you too can share your opinion on this as you see fit or improve upon it.

When did they say that max level would be 50 when they remove VR levels? At the moment, there are 65 levels in the game. 1-49 and Vet 1 - Vet 16. They haven't released any details about how they are going to implement vet removal (that I know of), only that it will be removed. For all I know, they will simply convert vet 1 - vet 16 to level 50-65. I have also not seen any mention of removing Cadwell's silver or gold.

Most of the opinions I see on these forums are based on speculation. I haven't seen many based on fact. I will reserve my opinion on the matter until I see more facts.

I'm sure someone's said this reason already (haven't read the whole thing), but the main reason I want them gone is so that you don't feel forced into doing Cadwell's before you can do Craglorn, PvP or Trials. If they had introduced Craglorn as VR5 and Trials as VR10, rather than Craglorn as VR11 and Trials as VR12, the problem people have with VRs would not have existed.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

Because I have a lot of alts and neither the time nor patience to individually grind them all to VR16.

CP are account-wide, so I'd rather see those used for itemization post-level 50.

This right here. I have three Alts, one of each class. I want to be able to use all of them at some point at endgame. Currently my Main isnt even Max. Although Id probably have him at Max if I wasnt trying to establish Alts with particular setups and crafting that will supplement each other.

I dont mind rank increases. Ive played enough MMOs to be alright with that sort of thing. But what I dont agree with is asking me to level up my characters essentially 3 times + Craglorn and IC rank increases. The CP system should of been apart of the game from the start. It would of allowed players to have accessed the other factions (Which Im opposed to as an MMOer as it takes away that particular Factions uniqueness) and had something to earn while doing said factions content. Instead of arbitrarily adding 10 VR ranks that only served to unlock stronger and stronger gear.

Agreed. I'm sure there are a lot of desperate souls in the same shoes. IT IS F***N LONG TIME and I want to improve my other skills in the mastering of other classes, too.

What I would suggest:

1.) When you max LVL 50 you become Veteran. Point. Not rank 1 or bazillion. Just because this VR shield looks cool and indicates that you have actually done the first lesson.

2.)When you are Veteran you can travel to any area (not fully discovered, but at least on wayshrine available). You can participate in any event, do any content beyond that. You can still do Cadwell's silver and gold, and to make it a real choice I would give a bigger reward upon completion. Let's say 100 000 gold for silver 300 000 for gold, or lot of mats or whatever.

3.)As others said allow development through champion system and itemisation. I think the XP required to gain a CP is fairly OK, not too much but no too easy.

4.)Make every sets attainable on Veteran rank.

5.)Etc.

I spoke.