How To Fix Cloak For Everyone

XpoZeD_GoD · October 2015

Although I don't personally think there is anything wrong with cloak, I have thought of a way that it could be changed so that it prevents Nightblades from remaining in cloak forever and so that it doesn't become nerfed to the point where no-one wants to slot their only defensive ability. I know not everyone will agree with the change that I suggest but I feel like if cloak were to become like a toggle where it drains magicka for every second that the Nightblade remains in cloak. If the Nightblade attacks from cloak then it will un-toggle and if they are hit by one of the many counters then that too will un-toggle the ability. By implementing this Nightblades won't be able to cloak forever therefore helping everyone else and will also help Nightblades to some extent as it won't cost ~3000 magicka for less than a second in cloak. I feel like this could be considered a better alternative to increasing cost, no regen in cloak or diminishing returns. I understand that this may be hard to code but I also believe that this will be considered a welcome change if it were to happen.

DannyLV702 · October 2015

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

oibam · October 2015

caltrops

GuyNamedSean · October 2015

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

I agree with you, and I'm a Nightblade that quite enjoys his Cloak.

iliatha · October 2015

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

yea lets make cloack that useless that even the last solo pvp players will quit or join brain afk zerg groups. good idea.

Allister101_ESO · October 2015

I actually like your idea. I was talking about alternatives to how it works currently, with some people earlier today.

My problem with it now is that it takes up a very important slot on our bars, and it doesn't really bring much to the table.
I feel making it more useful like you say, would make it much more valuable, enough to put on the bars, and not just for pvp, I mean for pve as well. As it is, I always feel myself wishing i had an extra bar to put it on ( similar to how it goes on a special class bar in wow).

lolo_01b16_ESO · October 2015

No, making it a toggle is a bad idea due to the secondary effects. If you use shadowy disguise to get a guarantied crit (for your proxi det, mercyless resolve, soul harvest or any other hard hitting skill) it would be toggled for less than a second and therefore cost maybe 500 magicka which is too cheap imo. Same goes for dark cloak when you use it instead of purge.

tennant94 · October 2015

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

This is not fair at all and your suggestion hasn't taken skill balance into account. Leave cloak alone.

tennant94 · October 2015

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

I agree with you, and I'm a Nightblade that quite enjoys his Cloak.

You wouldn't agree if this change was implemented because you'd fighting sorcs all the time

usmcjdking · October 2015

A toggle that drains a % amount of magicka seems like a fun idea TBH.

I don't think that really answers the mail with cloak though.

WillhelmBlack · October 2015

Cloak is fine. Leave it. Damage from stealth on the other hand needs addressing.

Cathexis · October 2015

No magicka regen while cloaked is a far better solution (and that will actually be implemented).

While your design is intriguing, in practice it may not work as well as you hope. NB'S would just stack enough regen to perma cloak through the mag cost.

Cathexis · October 2015

tennant94 wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

This is not fair at all and your suggestion hasn't taken skill balance into account. Leave cloak alone.

Hang on while I reflect on the gutting of sorc port and then lol at this post.

mr_wazzabi · October 2015

I think the cost should start scaling after 3 consecutive cloaks. But definitely not 1 cloak.

joshisanonymous · October 2015

Your idea yields the same exact situation as what we have now. What's the difference if magicka drains over time at a constant rate or if what would be 4 seconds of draining under the toggle system happened immediately upon activation? Either way, nightblades can stay cloaked for the same exact total amount of time.

If anything, your system makes cloak more powerful because very short toggles to clear DoTs or to get a guaranteed crit would cost much less. In that since, I guess I do like your idea, but I think it would have to ramp up the rate that magicka drains the longer you stay in cloak, that is if we all really do agree that cloak lasts too long. Even this limitation would be easily overcome, though, by simply toggling the ability off then immediately back on again to make it as if you haven't been staying cloaked for a long period of time... Yeah, no, your toggle idea is no fix at all.

KenaPKK · October 2015

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

Streak is 100% reliable mobility. Cloak is extremely unreliable and doesn't guarantee any mobility or defense. Sometimes to get Cloak to work at all, you simply have to spam it. This change would destroy Nightblade. Why don't people see that?...

Go play the class, get good at it, and then talk PLEASE.

WreckfulAbandon · October 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

This is not fair at all and your suggestion hasn't taken skill balance into account. Leave cloak alone.

Hang on while I reflect on the gutting of sorc port and then lol at this post.

"Gutting of the sorc?"

Are you f'ing serious?

And if you are, you think gutting NB's is a reasonable way to balance things?

Cathexis wrote: »

No magicka regen while cloaked is a far better solution (and that will actually be implemented).

While your design is intriguing, in practice it may not work as well as you hope. NB'S would just stack enough regen to perma cloak through the mag cost.

If they had to stack that much regen they would have no burst, but I guess that's your whole point isn't it? You whiney sorcs are the worst, git gud like the many skilled sorcs who aren't on here crying about NB's. Your problem is with Stamina burst damage, and if it isn't then you got bigger issues than merely gitting gud. Maybe try playing with both hands or take off the blindfold?

Asmael · October 2015

I'll probably get a lot of hate for it but I'll go ahead.

I don't think NB's cloak needs to be nerfed, I'd also like to point out that NBs have other options available, such as Shadow image, and that nerfing cloak would probably not stop NBs.

@KenaPKK made a good point: Cloak on its own is unreliable, unlike bolt escape. Actually, I didn't mind the nerf to escape bolt, because I thought the increased cost was already stackable (I had Kassadin from LoL in mind). However, detect pots could have their duration increased by a few seconds.

Might as well see a buff to DKs and Temps instead of a nerf, magicka NBs are, in my opinion, actually quite balanced, and they'd be the first to suffer from this change, instead of stam NBs.

Things need to happen, like the star of the CP system giving reduction to DoTs should probably be replaced by reduced physical damage taken, which would balance stam VS magicka more, while also making DoTs more viable.

Had I to tweak NBs, I'd probably fix the number of DoTs purged by Dark Cloak from 1/2/3/4 to 2 at all ranks, increase the magicka cost of Strife by 50%, while reducing the cost of Concealed Weapon (not Surprise Attack) by 25%.

WreckfulAbandon · October 2015

Asmael wrote: »

I'll probably get a lot of hate for it but I'll go ahead.

I don't think NB's cloak needs to be nerfed, I'd also like to point out that NBs have other options available, such as Shadow image, and that nerfing cloak would probably not stop NBs.

@KenaPKK made a good point: Cloak on its own is unreliable, unlike bolt escape. Actually, I didn't mind the nerf to escape bolt, because I thought the increased cost was already stackable (I had Kassadin from LoL in mind). However, detect pots could have their duration increased by a few seconds.

Might as well see a buff to DKs and Temps instead of a nerf, magicka NBs are, in my opinion, actually quite balanced, and they'd be the first to suffer from this change, instead of stam NBs.

Things need to happen, like the star of the CP system giving reduction to DoTs should probably be replaced by reduced physical damage taken, which would balance stam VS magicka more, while also making DoTs more viable.

Had I to tweak NBs, I'd probably fix the number of DoTs purged by Dark Cloak from 1/2/3/4 to 2 at all ranks, increase the magicka cost of Strife by 50%, while reducing the cost of Concealed Weapon (not Surprise Attack) by 25%.

Surprise attack should lose the armor debuff.

Vigor should pop NB's out of Cloak/stealth.

Wrecking Blow should lose sneak attack bonus damage.

Problem solved.

Edit: And either change the tooltip for Green Dragon Blood in Cyrodiil or make it actually heal 33% of missing health. Magic DK's can't permablock-cast in Cyrodiil anymore, so why take away their burst heal too?

Levo18 · October 2015

Let me get this straight.

The escspe ability from sorc , streak. Everyone QQed so it got nerfed and now they say its fine now.

The escape ability from nightblade, cloak. Way more OP and annoying than streak was before the nerf and people say no its fine dont touch it or i will quit the game.

Uhm?

WreckfulAbandon · October 2015

Levo18 wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

The escspe ability from sorc , streak. Everyone QQed so it got nerfed and now they say its fine now.

The escape ability from nightblade, cloak. Way more OP and annoying than streak was before the nerf and people say no its fine dont touch it or i will quit the game.

Uhm?

Cloak is the NB escape/defense skill all rolled into one. Was hardened ward nerfed alongside streak? No. And it shouldn't be either.

Not everyone QQ'd about Streak. I didn't even have a forum account back then and if I did I wouldn't have called for streak nerfs. Although I would have been very vocal about the sharpened and nirnhoned bugs.

I know the desire for revenge comes instinctively, but at least try to be a little less transparent in your reasoning for a cloak nerf.

StihlReign · October 2015

Cloak is still broken and needs to be fixed.

Sorcs can bolt non-stop. Sorcs have massive shields. Sorcs have some of the best armor in the game. (Especially in the new update).

L2P a NB lol

Levo18 · October 2015

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Levo18 wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

The escspe ability from sorc , streak. Everyone QQed so it got nerfed and now they say its fine now.

The escape ability from nightblade, cloak. Way more OP and annoying than streak was before the nerf and people say no its fine dont touch it or i will quit the game.

Uhm?

Cloak is the NB escape/defense skill all rolled into one. Was hardened ward nerfed alongside streak? No. And it shouldn't be either.

Not everyone QQ'd about Streak. I didn't even have a forum account back then and if I did I wouldn't have called for streak nerfs. Although I would have been very vocal about the sharpened and nirnhoned bugs.

I know the desire for revenge comes instinctively, but at least try to be a little less transparent in your reasoning for a cloak nerf.

Its no revenge im just comparing to so called escape moves. I dont call for a major nerf just said everyone wanted a streak nerf and now suddenly everyone is fine with cloak. I dont mind cloak in combat i have no problems with it. But what gets on my nerves is that a NB can end the fight at their will when they cant win. And good luck to try to find a decent NB who knows how to play.
Thats why i think a streak treatment would work well. To prevent cloak spam.

i have a v16 nb btw but he retired / only crafts gear

eliisra · October 2015

iliatha wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

yea lets make cloack that useless that even the last solo pvp players will quit or join brain afk zerg groups. good idea.

Have you considered for like 1 second that other players than NB's would like to solo freely in PvP?

If anti-zerg speeches and solo PvP is the most important thing, than why did 99.99% of the NB community support and push for the Streak nerf and also Shield Breaker spam? That's exactly why sorcs cant effective solo PvP these days.

I dunno, until I see NB's supporting changes that allows templars and DK's to start solo roaming again like back in 1.5, I wont shed a tear when Cloaks gets nerfed.

WreckfulAbandon · October 2015

Levo18 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Levo18 wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

The escspe ability from sorc , streak. Everyone QQed so it got nerfed and now they say its fine now.

The escape ability from nightblade, cloak. Way more OP and annoying than streak was before the nerf and people say no its fine dont touch it or i will quit the game.

Uhm?

Cloak is the NB escape/defense skill all rolled into one. Was hardened ward nerfed alongside streak? No. And it shouldn't be either.

Not everyone QQ'd about Streak. I didn't even have a forum account back then and if I did I wouldn't have called for streak nerfs. Although I would have been very vocal about the sharpened and nirnhoned bugs.

I know the desire for revenge comes instinctively, but at least try to be a little less transparent in your reasoning for a cloak nerf.

Its no revenge im just comparing to so called escape moves. I dont call for a major nerf just said everyone wanted a streak nerf and now suddenly everyone is fine with cloak. I dont mind cloak in combat i have no problems with it. But what gets on my nerves is that a NB can end the fight at their will when they cant win. And good luck to try to find a decent NB who knows how to play.
Thats why i think a streak treatment would work well. To prevent cloak spam.

i have a v16 nb btw but he retired / only crafts gear

It would do more than prevent spam though, because of Cloak's 2.9 second duration. It would make the squishiest class even squishier by not allowing them to use their only class defensive skill. It would be like giving the Streak treatment to Hardened Ward.

I think that Surprise Attack, Wrecking Blow, and Vigor heals while cloaked are all making Cloak into some kind of boogeyman for a lot of ppl. I suggested changes above to deal with it, Wrecking Blow can be used by all classes so I just think that its stealth damage bonus should be lessened or removed.

Cloaking into Wrecking Blow spam is cheesy, and Surprise Attack is too strong. And no one should be able to heal in stealth.

ProvenIconic · October 2015

Alright I play a nb but still think cloak shouldn't be nerfed like streak was or you going to lose a lot of fan base. The stam nightblade like myself need cloak in s sticky situation and cam only use it 3 or so times.. not much of escape tactic if you have low magicka.. you are mad mostly at magicka nightblade who can permanent cloak but don't have as much burst damage (at least I haven't run into one that has) fair reduction all around if there needs to be one is simple for one get rid of the refreshing shadows passive increase magicka and health go back to 39 percent stam, and second make magicka regen at half the speed while cloaked. It would cut down on the magicka regen that help make magic nightblade little harder to pull off, then the 50 percent slower regen is not a killer for a stam nightblade but is able to effect magicka some too. No matter what they do unless they remove cloak all together there will be complaints about it. In my opinion sorc shouldn't be able to spam frags or stack shields that is unfair, templar shouldn't be able to spam heals that isn't fair, the dk shouldn't spam dragon blood not fair.. every class has it own thing that we will complain about, one thing will get nerfed and we move on to the next one till we all throwing sticks at eachother.. please just stop and play the game how it was made

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2015

@XpoZeD_GoD you're idea is not bad but it wouldn't work as cloak is useless outside of the secondary effects. The base Shadow Cloak and Shadowy Disguise break on DoT damage making the trash Vs any DoT. Dark Cloak dropping four DoTs will keep you alive more then the 2.9 seconds of invisibility.

Cloak is God mode in close quarters cause even with the short timer you can move around something. The stealth attack bonus says it works when cloaked or in stealth, but it's only for the first attack.

Honestly is the most countered power people just don't want to slot them. Gap closer are great but only really needed to run down a Sorc. Healing debuffs also great but really need for fights with Templars and Dragon Knights. Not wanting to use a counter to a class or power is not the same as not having a reasonable counter.

Tholian1 · October 2015

eliisra wrote: »

iliatha wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

yea lets make cloack that useless that even the last solo pvp players will quit or join brain afk zerg groups. good idea.

Have you considered for like 1 second that other players than NB's would like to solo freely in PvP?

If anti-zerg speeches and solo PvP is the most important thing, than why did 99.99% of the NB community support and push for the Streak nerf and also Shield Breaker spam? That's exactly why sorcs cant effective solo PvP these days.

I dunno, until I see NB's supporting changes that allows templars and DK's to start solo roaming again like back in 1.5, I wont shed a tear when Cloaks gets nerfed.

NBs are supposed to be evasive. So because your chosen class isn't built around evasion, NBs shouldn't be either?

Like you, I won't be shedding a tear when ZoS compensates the NB for whatever nerf they do give to cloak that will still leave a lot of you crying. You all want a fundamental change to how the class is played and it will never happen without completely replacing it and I don't think they will.

Cody · October 2015

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

if that happens, stamblades will not be able to effectively use cloak. its manablades spamming cloak, not stamblades. do not punish stamblades for something a mana blade does. I personally like the OPs fix; I myself don't think cloak needs any "fix" but as long as I can still use it with a stamblade I can live with the change. I have played in worse scenarios.

Cody · October 2015

Levo18 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Levo18 wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

The escspe ability from sorc , streak. Everyone QQed so it got nerfed and now they say its fine now.

The escape ability from nightblade, cloak. Way more OP and annoying than streak was before the nerf and people say no its fine dont touch it or i will quit the game.

Uhm?

Cloak is the NB escape/defense skill all rolled into one. Was hardened ward nerfed alongside streak? No. And it shouldn't be either.

Not everyone QQ'd about Streak. I didn't even have a forum account back then and if I did I wouldn't have called for streak nerfs. Although I would have been very vocal about the sharpened and nirnhoned bugs.

I know the desire for revenge comes instinctively, but at least try to be a little less transparent in your reasoning for a cloak nerf.

Its no revenge im just comparing to so called escape moves. I dont call for a major nerf just said everyone wanted a streak nerf and now suddenly everyone is fine with cloak. I dont mind cloak in combat i have no problems with it. But what gets on my nerves is that a NB can end the fight at their will when they cant win. And good luck to try to find a decent NB who knows how to play.
Thats why i think a streak treatment would work well. To prevent cloak spam.

i have a v16 nb btw but he retired / only crafts gear

not everyone wanted a streak nerf. quite a few of us on the forums hated the very idea, and im sure many people in the rest of the community did too; ZOS just chose to listen to the people calling for nerfs; that's it. There is no secret agenda; I myself WANT streak to be un-nerfed, as there are plenty of ways of beat it.

and tbh, if streak was made useless, sorcs would still have hardened ward. What would a NB have if cloak was made useless? A situational teleport? I highly doubt you are going to be able to use it for every single fight, even if you are a ranged player. its too situational in my opinion; regardless, its not a suitable replacement for cloak. It is roughly a one time use teleport that is honestly not worth the space on the bar if you do not plan to endlessly kite your enemy the entire battle or run away every single fight.

"NBs can end the fight at will" so can sorcerers with Bolt Escape, yet I don't see you complaining about it.

DannyLV702 · October 2015

iliatha wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

They just need the old streak treatment. 50% extra cost if cast again within 4 seconds. that's more than fair, considering people still complained about streak being spammable before IC

yea lets make cloack that useless that even the last solo pvp players will quit or join brain afk zerg groups. good idea.

Wow really? Don't be a crybaby. Sorcs were still able to spam Streak with that. Sounds like you're one of those guys i face who spends 95% of the time in cloak healing while i stand there waiting for you to unpause the game.