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My Thoughts on the Champion System as implemented in the PTS (and to some degree on live)

kojou
kojou
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Before I say anything else I just want to say thank you to whomever was involved in getting the new change implemented. Putting a limit on the amount of Champion Points is a sorely needed change for the long term health and balance of this game. This is so badly needed in my opinion that I am actually willing to take the change exactly as implemented over what we have now with some players being so much more powerful than the huddled masses because of the amount of champion points they have.

That said, I think there are some places I would really like to see improved overall in the system. I'm not sure where the value 501 came from other than it is about 500 and it is divisible by 3, but it seems that is the value that was chosen, so my impressions are going to be based on a player that now has exactly 501 champion points (me). As you can tell I play 3 classes with all 3 being max level and although I may not be the best player in the game by any stretch of the imagination I do have a pretty good understanding as to what is important to all three roles (healing, dps, and tanking). I have also played both stamina and magicka builds and while I am really enjoying magicka at the moment, stamina is just a "repec" away so I don't have any particular bias for any class or build.

My main issues are with the Orange (Warrior) section and Blue (Mage) section as the Green (Thief) section is mostly about resource management and does not favor any particular build.

Starting with the Blue section:

We have the Apprentice, Atronach, and Ritual. On first glance one might think Magic DPS/Healer, Tank, Physical DPS, but that is not exactly correct. The Ritual also has Thaumaturge which is important to Nightblades, Sorcerers, and Templars since a lot of their class abilities do magic based damage. The reason why I think this is important and why it creates an imbalance at the value of 501 is that as a Magic build I have to split my points between 2 sections and at least 3 different lines. I will need to put points into Thaumaturge, Elfborn, and Elemental Expert which is a problem since none of the bonuses in the Ritual section help Magic builds. As a Magic build I can either put 100 points into Thaumaturge and sacrifice a lot of the passives in the Apprentice for the sake of DPS, or take passives in the Apprentice and sacrifice overall DPS. If I choose to go all Elemental for my DPS I at least have the benefit of that damage bonus being in the same section as everything else, but the only class with all elemental class skills is the Dragon Knight and since the destruction staff skills have all been nerfed to be some of the least effective skills in the game I have no desire to use any of them for my primary DPS.

If I am running a stamina/physical build I can drop 100 points into Mighty, 20 points into Precise Strikes, and the rest into the weapon of choice in the Atronach and call it a day. As a Physical Damage dealer I get all the passives on the Ritual, and the first 2 on the Atronach (47 points) which all benefit my build. If I am running a bow then I have to make a similar sacrifice as a Magicka build, but at least Thaumaturge and Mighty are in the same section.

Personally, I would like to see Magic damage moved to Elemental expert, Poison and Disease moved to Mighty, and Thaumaturge be changed another bonus that just helps Physical Damage builds specifically along the sames line of power as Blessed in the Apprentice.

Next we have the Orange Section:

This is a section with a greater imbalance, but not because of the current position of the cap. This has been covered in a lot of other posts so I won't waste time with a lot of details, but the summary is there is very little mitigation for physical damage, but there is Spell Shield, Hardy, Elemental Defender, and thick skinned that all reduce the various forms of magic damage taken.

Overall it is an imbalance that skews towards Physical/Stamina builds and I think the amount of wrecking blow and spinning blades I see in Cyrodiil these days speak to that advantage. For the Blue section the solution could be as easy as raising the cap high enough that magic builds can get as many relevant passives as Physical (660 comes to mind), but for the Orange tree the bonuses themselves need to be changed. Light Armor Focus should be changed to the Physical equivalent of Spell Shield, Medium Armor focus could be changed to a increase to dodge duration following a dodge roll, and Heavy Armor Focus could be a buff to the Constitution passive (which is extremely weak by the way) to help tanks with resource management.

I'm sure there are a lot of other ways to make the system more balanced, and nothing I mentioned will be changed in the PTS before it goes live, but I would really like to see some changes here to increase overall balance between all build types considered for the future.

Playing since beta...
  • sabresandiego_ESO
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    Magic damage usually comes with utility, range, and is a resource that is not required for actions like rolling, blocking, and break free. Stamina damage on the other hand typically comes with less utility, less range, and is shared with actions like blocking, dodging, and breaking free.

    The champion system is the way it is, because it has been tested and found to be more balanced this way. We tested max CP and neither physical damage nor magic damage was out of tune.

    On first glance it seems like certain trees are imbalanced, but you forget that physical damage dealers need to invest in blessed and other talents, particularly in PVP. The CP system is actually reasonably well done, just a bit too powerful and I am looking forward to the caps and catch up mechanics.
    Edited by sabresandiego_ESO on October 22, 2015 11:01PM
    Ali Dreadsabre -Necromancer
    Ali Sabre -Nightblade
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    does not thick skinned decrease dots from physical attacks as well?
    Rest in Peace:
    The Dragonknight
    2014-2025

    This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.
  • timidobserver
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    Magic damage usually comes with utility, range, and is a resource that is not required for actions like rolling, blocking, and break free. Stamina damage on the other hand typically comes with less utility, less range, and is shared with actions like blocking, dodging, and breaking free.

    The champion system is the way it is, because it has been tested and found to be more balanced this way. We tested max CP and neither physical damage nor magic damage was out of tune.

    On first glance it seems like certain trees are imbalanced, but you forget that physical damage dealers need to invest in blessed and other talents, particularly in PVP. The CP system is actually reasonably well done, just a bit too powerful and I am looking forward to the caps and catch up mechanics.

    Stam builds having to spend points in blessed is no excuse for their being a way to directly reduce magical/elemental damage but no way to directly reduce physical damage. I imagine that any decent self-sustaining build, stam or magicka, with excess CPs has at least 5-6% worth into blessed.
    V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
    V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
    V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
    V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
    V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)

  • kojou
    kojou
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    Magic damage usually comes with utility, range, and is a resource that is not required for actions like rolling, blocking, and break free. Stamina damage on the other hand typically comes with less utility, less range, and is shared with actions like blocking, dodging, and breaking free.

    On this point I agree. I have run a stamina build long enough to know that higher regeneration rates are needed for stamina builds to have the same level of sustain as magicka builds.
    The champion system is the way it is, because it has been tested and found to be more balanced this way. We tested max CP and neither physical damage nor magic damage was out of tune.

    Max CP and 501 CP are 2 entirely different levels of balance. I am talking about balance at 501 CP. In my post I outline why 501 CP is more favorable for Physical Damage builds.
    On first glance it seems like certain trees are imbalanced, but you forget that physical damage dealers need to invest in blessed and other talents, particularly in PVP. The CP system is actually reasonably well done, just a bit too powerful and I am looking forward to the caps and catch up mechanics.

    At 501 points I probably won't invest a lot into blessed as a physical damage build. As I mentioned before I would put my points in Mighty or Thaumaturge (depending on class and favored weapon) and Precise Strikes to get 120 points on the Ritual, and then decide if I want to get some other bonuses. Magicka builds that have class skills that do magic damage (not elemental) that include Nightblades, Templars, and Sorcs have to make a compromise to put in a lot of points into Thaumaturge to maximize damage that physical damage builds don't have to make.
    Edited by kojou on October 23, 2015 1:55PM
    Playing since beta...
  • kojou
    kojou
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    does not thick skinned decrease dots from physical attacks as well?

    Technically yes, and twin slashes is pretty powerful on a stamina DK. I have experimented with it combined with unstable flame and it works well, but I don't see that many people incorporate it into their builds. Cleave is also considered a DoT but I think those 2 are it for Physical DOT unless someone knows of more.
    Playing since beta...
  • sabresandiego_ESO
    sabresandiego_ESO
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    does not thick skinned decrease dots from physical attacks as well?

    Technically yes, and twin slashes is pretty powerful on a stamina DK. I have experimented with it combined with unstable flame and it works well, but I don't see that many people incorporate it into their builds. Cleave is also considered a DoT but I think those 2 are it for Physical DOT unless someone knows of more.

    Critical charge with maelstrom weapons is a physical dot, and so is axe bleed.
    Ali Dreadsabre -Necromancer
    Ali Sabre -Nightblade
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