My thoughts on fixing Wrecking Blow

Armitas · October 2015

If you have checked the forums at all this year you may have noticed all the Wrecking blow nerf threads. No one likes Wrecking Blow, not the DK's that are forced to use it, not the Players forced to spam 1 boring button because that is all the line has, nor the people that get hit for unstoppable Nuke damage. It needs to change, and there is no simple fix.

Problems with WB.

Uninteruptable
Blocking it is hit or miss due to the misleading animation, and unsustainable due to the latest block nerf
Dodging it is hit or miss due to the misleading animation, and unsustainable due to the latest roll nerf
You can't out range it once it is initiated. If the skill begins, it will not fail to occur unless you are behind the opponent. You can't run from it.
You can't get behind the character if they know how to back strafe
WB plus one other ability (which I will not mention for all our sake) makes it so you cannot get behind the opponent.
You cannot snare the opponent to try and get behind them because the line comes with snare immobilize removal and immunity for 2 seconds
PRESSING ONE BUTTON OVER AND OVER IS BORING IN PVE AND PVP

Problems with suggested fixes

Make it interruptible. If the skill is made interruptible in a standard usage the skill will never go off. This would completely ruin any use of this skill in PvP.
Add diminishing returns - AKA Lower the damage the more you use it. As Wrecking Blow is the primary source of damage in the line this would destroy it for PvE dps.
Bolt Escape it - Make it cost more the more you use it. - This would make it unsustainable in PvE.

There is no easy fix, and even if you fixed it the Two Handed line would still be boring. You have to change the whole line, it's the only way. Here is how I would do it and why. I would keep Crit charge and Momentum as is, tweak brawler and completely replace Wrecking Blow and Executioner. I would replace them with uninteruptable channeled attacks. The reason for this is single skill attacks with a two hander will appear clunky and slow, but if you animate it in a channeled attack it will look like you are attacking with some skill and finesse.

Brawler- Skill now taunts enemies for 2 seconds. This could give some spice to tanking. Allowing you to have a S/B for bosses and a two hander for crowd management and self healing.

Executioner - New name = Divide Two fast attacks that also apply a poison dot. While slotted, weapon attacks deal more damage to low health targets that are also suffering from poison. 1 morph gives minor spell and physical mitigation the other morph causes minor befoul for 4 seconds.

Wrecking Blow - New name = Blade Storm - Three fast attacks that increase in damage. After 3 successful channels Wrecking Blow becomes available much like the bow from Grim focus. When Wrecking Blow becomes available it is available for 7 seconds, each use of blade storm refreshes that timer allowing you to reserve the Wrecking Blow for your discretion.

Balanced Blade - Passive - Also reduces cost of blocking by 7%.

The damage on these channels will be balanced for more steady dps rather than successive unavoidable burst damage which is the problem we have right now. The line still has burst damage and CC via Wrecking Blow but it is limited and manageable now. The added channel attacks adds some visual finesse to the experience rather than the dull, lumbering, repetitive attacks. We also added some tanking functionality too it as well. There are at least two skills there that should always be in use to break up the monotony. Divide to keep the dot and execute going, and Blade Storm as the primary damager that is always racing forward toward that Wrecking Blow. I think in a system like that Wrecking Blow will be something people are excited about getting instead of something they just press over and over and over again.

Vangy · October 2015

Holy crap I read it halfway through the skill changes and am already drooling. Tbh this looks even more OP the the current Wb spam pawnage. But at least this looks a LOT more fun. Hopefully this gets implemented and I don't need to fall asleep on my Wb button during pve.

EDIT: on second thought due to animation cancelling channeled attacks tend to lose out on dps. (*Looks at rapid strikes sadly). Moreover 3 attacks with a 2h is likely a very slow animation and this adds even more of a dps loss due to the loss in LA/HA weaving. Maybe the numbers need to be tweaked to factor this.

DaveMoeDee · October 2015

Man, I need to find all these players that just wait for the wrecking blow to connect. People keep running away and cloaking on me before it connects and I'm swinging a maul at flies.

I guess I just suck at PvP. Actually, I already knew that.

ku5h · October 2015

I like your idea on WB change!
It wouldnt affect PvE since mobs are more or less punching bags standing in one place, but in PvP you would have to work to get it up, since no one will let you land those hits, unless CCed or something...
So, yea very nice idea

Vangy · October 2015

Yeah I don't even bother with wb in pvp. It only connects like 1 out of 5 times against any1 who's decent. I just use my 2h for the crit Rush and rally buff. SnB ransack spam with LA+ bash weave ftw. My concern is more for the pve side cos it's boring as hell to hit one button like 50 times till boss dies lol.

Armitas · October 2015

Yeah I can't do it in PvE either, it's just too boring. Mind numbingly boring. My first month of this game I was using a two hander but it wasnt' competitive in PvE or PvP, now it's competitive ( or more competitive at least) but it's just so boring. That and my character looks like an amateur using it.

There was a bug with the torugs pact set at release that let you use L/H attack combos with proper timing. That was the only time I enjoyed using the two hander. I found a 7 combo attack by weaving Light and Heavies with the proper timing and finishing with an executioner. It was fluid and sensical too, and felt like manual sword play.

Erock25 · October 2015

Haha channeled abilities? Come on man. There isn't anything wrong with Wrecking Blow. There has to be a hard hitter out there for stam users. The very nature of our cool down free, 12 ability only game requires it. Are NBs still using Veiled Strike over Wrecking Blow? Yes, therefore WB is not imbalanced. I get accused of being just another WB spammer from time to time in PVP, and believe me, it is annoying to have to use it so often as a Stam Sorc, but there has to be an ability out there that does the most on demand dmg and whatever ability that is, will be spammed.

What class are you that you are having such problems with WB?

willymchilybily · October 2015

one small point,

shield charge - stuns, low slash - damage spam
ambush -immobilizes, surprise attack - damage spam

Crit charge - No CC, wrecking blow is the CC and damage spam. You NEED that CC

I dont have a problem with WB to be honest. I dont think making WB another flurry is for me, even with a proc chance. and block cost reduction on a 2H is a dangerous path.

imagine swapping the WB and CF mechanics, people would spam frags constantly, and sneak instant cast WBs all the time. No way around needing that burst in PVP. and getting the most anyway you can.

Armitas · October 2015

I can see the need for a CC on crit charge in this case. Perhaps a stun that breaks on damage if the CC from WB remains in tact, or we take the knock down from WB and give it to crit rush instead. What do you think about that?

I think the blocking cost reduction will be okay. You still can't permablock in it without making significant sacrifices in damage.

Armitas · October 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

There isn't anything wrong with Wrecking Blow. There has to be a hard hitter out there for stam users. The very nature of our cool down free, 12 ability only game requires it. Are NBs still using Veiled Strike over Wrecking Blow? Yes, therefore WB is not imbalanced. I get accused of being just another WB spammer from time to time in PVP, and believe me, it is annoying to have to use it so often as a Stam Sorc, but there has to be an ability out there that does the most on demand dmg and whatever ability that is, will be spammed.

What class are you that you are having such problems with WB?

A 7 meter ability that hits enemies farther than 7 meters does indeed have something wrong with it. Flame lash is a damage spammer, WB is a high burst skill like crystal frags that is suppose to be coupled with a risk reward aspect. However that risk is removed entirely for anything other than CC or moving behind your opponent. The ability to move behind your opponent is normally available providing the risk with the reward, however that risk can become completely dried up due to the things that I mentioned, leaving all reward and almost no risk. It is a limitation of the weapon line, and the lack of time developing it that it is also the damage spammer. It should have a normal damage spammer, and a risky reward nuke, not a Reward Nuke, CC, Damage Spammer. No line should derive everything it needs from pressing 1 button.

The "damage spammer" in this line is Blade Storm, but you are incentivized to keep Divide up as well, and you still have that same burst of WB available to use at your discretion.

Ffastyl · October 2015

There are three changes to Wrecking Blow since it's inception:
1.) Cast time increased from 0.8 seconds to 1 second.
2.) Interruptible to uninterruptible.
3.) "Increase Power of next attack by X. Does not apply to Wrecking Blow." to Empower (Next attack deals 20% more damage)

(1) is arguable since the change is small, almost negligible. Almost.
(2) and (3) were the big changes, the latter being a system shift to standardized buffs. (2) made Uppercut and its morphs viable for PvP, since any attentive player can and will consistently bash during even the old 0.8 second cast time.

(3) is where I find issue and where I see all of the 1-button-spam stemming from. Prior to Update 6, multiple abilities had buffs that would increase the damage of the next attack but all of them had the secondary condition that it not be the same ability. Dark Flare, Wrecking Blow and others were not effective to spam. Their damage bonuses to the next attack would not apply to themselves so you dealt base damage each time if spammed. You had to press at least 2 buttons to take advantage of the bonus damage granted by each ability. With the way Empower is implemented, 1-button-spam is rewarded as the abilities with Empower are already powerful.

Tweak Empower so it does not grant bonus damage to the ability that applies it.

This means keeping track of the last ability used when Empower is active and not granting the +20% if the same ability is used. Alternatively all abilities that grant Empower could be blacklisted, where instead of adding an extra flag to track in combat it can compare the to-be-used ability with a static list of abilities to grant Empower to.

Waffennacht · October 2015

Deminishing returns, I really like that idea as well. I doubt it would happen but it would promote some rotation, it may just be one other move but that's something. Would be hard to implement I believe.

Like the ideas

willymchilybily · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

I can see the need for a CC on crit charge in this case. Perhaps a stun that breaks on damage if the CC from WB remains in tact, or we take the knock down from WB and give it to crit rush instead. What do you think about that?

Personally for me, i liked the lack of CC on crit rush but maybe look at the other morphs? (seems every one always chooses the same morphs) id say a knock down animation is too powerful to have on a gap closer. And the CC being on the damage spam instead gives more combo options. but its all situational.

CC on a gap closer is great if chasing a fleeing enemy, particularly immobilize on ambush, which doesnt grant CC immunity afaik. but if you charge in with shield at the start of the fight they instantly pop their CC break and you have 6 seconds toe to toe with them where you can do very little beyond roots and snares to control the flow of the battle. and as any class can get shield charge, but only NB can get ambush id lean to no CC on crit rush, but some type of CC on one of the damage moves/morphs.

if you have seen ninja san's you-tube you can see how powerful/annoying shield charge stun and suprise attack combo is i just never got on with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FbKVWb9S2s

Armitas · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Wrecking Blow - New name = Blade Storm - Three fast attacks that increase in damage. After 3 successful channels Wrecking Blow becomes available much like the bow from Grim focus. When Wrecking Blow becomes available it is available for 7 seconds, each use of blade storm refreshes that timer allowing you to reserve the Wrecking Blow for your discretion.

I didn't want this to be a use it or lose it bonus, but as I thought about it you can't really do this. You can't cast Blade Storm without also triggering WB because they would be the same skill slot. I guess you could attach it to the ultimate slot so that it rested on top of your ultimate and trigger it that way without consuming ultimate charge, but it doesn't seem very elegant that way.

LaughingJack · October 2015

there are ways of defeating Wrecking Blow - ive had them uesd against me. dont ask me to list them, i wasnt paying attention.

also: most of the combat in this game is just smashing buttons over and over and takes very little real skill apart from learning-by-rote combinations that you find are effective and realising how the mechanics work.

Rayste · October 2015

WB is the bread and butter of any NON NB stam build. Surprise attack anyone? Give the other 3 classes something similar or leave it alone.

Cody · October 2015

You cannot base an ability off of any kind of DoT as long as blocking and/or damage shields have the possibility of shutting it off. this may work for PvE, but not PvP. both need to be considered when making ability changes.

Armitas · October 2015

dot's stick to shields now, and you can only block the initial hit, after that the dots tick through.

Cody · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

dot's stick to shields now, and you can only block the initial hit, after that the dots tick through.

oh, ok. good. I take back what I said then.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · October 2015

interesting idea.

also something that may help. make shields take dots so everyone can do things aside from spamming the few decent DD abilities into peoples crit/dot immune damage shields. with dots on the table people may just CHOOSE other builds because suddenly there is more viable options other than min max DD builds, and messing with more variety is usually a welcome change.

danno8 · October 2015

I've been saying forever that the best fix for WB is to remove the CC part. That way it remains the strong DPS option for PvE, and still very powerful for PvP.

The only reason WB is so good is because if you get caught by one with the CC, you are guaranteed to get hit with the second one, which is often enough for the kill, and if not, a third one is incoming and if it connects it's lights out. I never feel this way with CF's, unless the Sorc has timed their burst very well with a couple other skills, which is fair to me.

danno8 · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Wrecking Blow - New name = Blade Storm - Three fast attacks that increase in damage. After 3 successful channels Wrecking Blow becomes available much like the bow from Grim focus. When Wrecking Blow becomes available it is available for 7 seconds, each use of blade storm refreshes that timer allowing you to reserve the Wrecking Blow for your discretion.

I didn't want this to be a use it or lose it bonus, but as I thought about it you can't really do this. You can't cast Blade Storm without also triggering WB because they would be the same skill slot. I guess you could attach it to the ultimate slot so that it rested on top of your ultimate and trigger it that way without consuming ultimate charge, but it doesn't seem very elegant that way.

ESO would need a pop up "procced skill" button for it to work well, which would actually be a pretty cool addition to the game, allowing for all sorts of interesting opportunities.

So it will never happen, lol.

ADarklore · October 2015

I often wonder if some players come into forums and post, what initially appear to be positive change ideas, but in reality, what they're really trying to do is get an ability nerfed because it kills them too often. So they put a positive spin on it, making it sound like THEY are the ones using the skill, but in reality, it's just another attempt to get an ability nerfed.

Sheezabeast · October 2015

Gosh Dks really get flack for using WB, why don't people whine about Stam Sorc's using it...NB's, its just par for the course for stam NBs, but whoah buddy if a stam DK uses it hold the phone and call a maid because tears will need to be mopped up

JaJaLuka · October 2015

I remember the old wrecking blow/uppercut and making some points on the forums about it being a terrible skill (and at the time being right, it was awful), what it needed was EITHER a faster animation OR more damage and unfortunately the dev's decided to do both and made it unbalanced in the exact opposite way

On your suggestions, I love the ideas and agree that the 2h skill line is boring as sin right now. Brawler (and the other morph, whatever it's called) definitely need some love, probably the worst aoe in the game sadly.