[Concept] ESO PvE Nightmare/Heroic Mode

Nifty2g · September 2015

This thread and idea is for the players that like a challenge, that want difficult content and player separation from what it is now, because I believe the competitive PvE competition is a dying age hard to revive what it once was due to all of the nerfing content to suit the more casual player. Which is understandable but also HIGHLY discouraging for new players to progress in an MMO with a bright future looking to progress. I believe this concept is an extremely healthy idea for Zenimax to look into, yes I know your team is limited but this would be an amazing thing to provide

The Concept

Currently as it stands Normal and Veteran are too far of a gap between each other, Normal Mode is designed for a new player looking to progress his or her build and start to get into raiding and group content, as it is right now Normal Mode is far too easy for every single player, the damage output of enemies is far too weak against the damage output by you, you are easily able to outdamage them and kill them, and you can do it in pretty much any build. This type of design I believe discourages a new player and gives them false hope so in turn they decide "hey guys lets try Veteran out" after jumping into Veteran Mode straight from Normal Mode, the difference is massive, and I mean really massive, new players struggle and it causes a bad benchmark from that sort of play style jump. Normal Mode should be harder, and Veteran Mode should be a little easier in comparison.

Veteran Mode is designed for the players who have been around for awhile, this has been said many times before. However, this becomes a huge problem because of Zenimax's Philosophy to match content to the larger audience, being and always will be the less *hardcore* type of player. I believe this is where the main problem starts, having content from one Party be nerfed for the other Party to complete, this causes many gameplay clashes and also prevents character and build progression for new players who try to pursue it.

Thus because of this I believe we should introduce a new mode called Nightmare Mode to keep the two parties split and to have an even and productive character progression model. Having the difficultly jump from Normal > Veteran > Nightmare should be manageable yet challenging, for all parties and those trying to better themselves at the game.

What Nightmare Mode Is

The basic construction of Nightmare Mode will be a considerable increase of Veteran Mode, there will be no new mechanics, no new boss fights, nothing extra to do, it will simply increase the Damage Output on Enemies and their Maximum Health, Damage Shields, Elemental Resistance, Critical Resistance and Critical Chance. This would challenge players to learn to move around, to block attacks, and to rethink their build as a whole learning how to sustain their damage, how to sustain their stat resource pools and their reaction times. This mode should not have nerfed damage it should not be touched and modified to fit the casual playerbase it should remain as a benchmark and an achievement to complete this mode for all dungeons and trials.

Not only have we seen many changes to Dungeons and Trials we have also seen changes to how Death Penalties work, this is one of the most discouraging thing Zenimax has ever changed in terms of competitive gameplay, removing death penalties promotes such an unhealthy playstyle and unhealthy competition, promoting how it is okay to die and there is no punishment for it, no life lost, just 1,000 repair bill when your gear decides to break.

Nightmare Mode For Dungeons

There isn't much challenge in dungeons at this current time it's mainly going in for a daily and destroying all of the bosses for a unique item set which ends up being deconstructed for the Style Materials. So to make things interesting for Dungeon Nightmare Mode I would suggest adding in a life counter similar to how Trials Works, or a Dungeon Timer which would be a unique way of having players maximizing their damage to try to complete the dungeon in a certain amount of time to be rewarded with a chance of getting a Legendary Item to drop on the Last Boss if you complete it within that time limit.

Nightmare Mode For Trials

Over the time since Craglorn has been out we have seen a lot of changes to Trials from how they orginially were, for example the decreased Life Counter used to be 32, that was exetremly hard to complete content with, especially Sanctum Ophidia, and the challenge was so great it took a few months to be able to beat the Trial, at least for me and the people I had played with at the time and all the other Top Guilds. I would also propose that Nightmare Mode would include a Death Penalty similar to how it used to be, adding 5 minutes to your overall score but maybe reducing your overall score by 500 points per death.

Nightmare Mode For Dragonstar Arena

Dragonstar Arena would have possibly been the most successful and most unique PvE content ESO will have, the idea is great it causes a lot of teamwork and class balancing to get the best results, the one thing I would suggest for Dragonstar Arena Nightmare Mode would be to give a Timer similar to Dungeons, and to decrease the overall lives that you had, possibly setting a benchmark for each round to be completed in a certain amount of time to recieve a special reward at the end of each round that would be a Legendary Item from Footman, Healer or Master Weapon.

Risk and Reward

Much like many games it becomes a problem when one party is able to complete content and get far superior gear being geared out and flying through content, so since Nightmare Mode has a lot of risk to it, it would need healthy rewards and because the content is the same as what a Veteran Mode would be my suggestion would be to make all of the gear within Trials drop Legendary, this would also be unique because we don't see this in ESO, we have never seen Legendary Items drop, only from weekly rewards it is also a great incentive to keep running content to try and get Legendary Materials.

Another idea being suggested is to add in vanity items such as Skins and Mounts to reduce the need to feel Overpowered compare to the players unable to complete, thanks @Aerieth @PBpsy for the idea

MaxwellC · September 2015

Maybe dropped items have a chance of dropping dual trait weapons,armor, and jewelry.
Example: Heavy armor chest of the Invincible with Infused and reinforced on it (Made up the name but you get the idea).

Nifty2g · September 2015

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Maybe dropped items have a chance of dropping dual trait weapons,armor, and jewelry.
Example: Heavy armor chest of the Invincible with Infused and reinforced on it (Made up the name but you get the idea).

Maybe, but I don't think there should be too much of a reward increase to separate the players in that way

PBpsy · September 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Maybe dropped items have a chance of dropping dual trait weapons,armor, and jewelry.
Example: Heavy armor chest of the Invincible with Infused and reinforced on it (Made up the name but you get the idea).

Maybe, but I don't think there should be too much of a reward increase to separate the players in that way

Exactly. I like the idea of a hard mode, but the rewards should be purely aesthetic, vanity fluff, otherwise the hard mode becomes just the standard end game progression mode .Considering that gear is not separated into PVP/PVE categories this becomes even more problematic since a large portion of a PVP pop will start complaining(rightfully) about not being competitive because they are forced into doing insane mode stupid PVE grinds.

Shunravi · September 2015

PBpsy wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Maybe dropped items have a chance of dropping dual trait weapons,armor, and jewelry.
Example: Heavy armor chest of the Invincible with Infused and reinforced on it (Made up the name but you get the idea).

Maybe, but I don't think there should be too much of a reward increase to separate the players in that way

Exactly. I like the idea of a hard mode, but the rewards should be purely aesthetic, vanity fluff, otherwise the hard mode becomes just the standard end game progression mode .Considering that gear is not separated into PVP/PVE categories this becomes even more problematic since a large portion of a PVP pop will start complaining(rightfully) about not being competitive because they are forced into doing insane mode stupid PVE grinds.

Cosmetics would be good. I hesitate to suggest, but what about boss armor morphs and the like? Some kind of one time change artifact? It may be problematic if it's not also incorperated in other parts of the game as well, as people do like changing gear aesthetic.... But also things like auras, polymorphs, etc... Ideas?

Nifty2g · September 2015

PBpsy wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Maybe dropped items have a chance of dropping dual trait weapons,armor, and jewelry.
Example: Heavy armor chest of the Invincible with Infused and reinforced on it (Made up the name but you get the idea).

Maybe, but I don't think there should be too much of a reward increase to separate the players in that way

Exactly. I like the idea of a hard mode, but the rewards should be purely aesthetic, vanity fluff, otherwise the hard mode becomes just the standard end game progression mode .Considering that gear is not separated into PVP/PVE categories this becomes even more problematic since a large portion of a PVP pop will start complaining(rightfully) about not being competitive because they are forced into doing insane mode stupid PVE grinds.

I agree, it could drop varies items but nothing too powerful, its just an idea to keep the competitive side of the game alive so players want the hard content can dab into it without the nerfs that has happened in the past to all of the content.

Nifty2g · September 2015

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno what do you think of the suggestions in the thread?

Nifty2g · October 2015

just giving myself a bump

dday3six · October 2015

Perhaps titles and dyes would be good reward ideas. Anyhow ZOS needs to give something to keep the hardcore audience engaged too.

Volkodav · October 2015

Why shouldnt the drops be as good as the PvP bosses drop? Just because it's for solo players? We shouldnt be able to have top of the line gear from high difficulty fights,like the PvPers do?

Nifty2g · October 2015

WhiskeyRiver.AZub17_ESO wrote: »

Why shouldnt the drops be as good as the PvP bosses drop? Just because it's for solo players? We shouldnt be able to have top of the line gear from high difficulty fights,like the PvPers do?

Wait what do you mean? All the PvE gear is better than PvP stuff but that's besides the point, I'm asking for harder content for the hardcore raiders

Artjuh90 · October 2015

you know this will lead to the cries that the game is to hard from way to many players right...
Don't get me wrong i would like this myself but i see those bosses getting nerfed like everything else in the game: Dk, Templar, Every freaking elite/world boss and even molag bal himself :'(

Nifty2g · October 2015

Artjuh90 wrote: »

you know this will lead to the cries that the game is to hard from way to many players right...

Well no. This is pretty much for the 1% of players, there are a lot surprisingly, many don't post on the forums. But having a mode for them seeing as many casual players want the Veteran Mode to be nerfed seeing as Normal is far too easy it seems reasonable to have a harder mode, right?

Matem · October 2015

Many interesting ideas such as this were suggested in the council yesterday but I think nobody realises that if there's more reward (even the tiniest amount) doing the harder content, casual players will want to do it regardless. Then they will mass cry on forums for nerfs and they will get them. Which leads us to square one.

I mean this has been repeated over and over many times already, it should be clear by now that zos will cater to casual players. Vet content nerf, dsa nerf, ic dungeons nerf, 2 weeks after orsinium msa nerf guaranteed.

The only way you could get really hard content without potential nerfs is by making rewards the same. But then again what'd be the point doing the hard content...

Artjuh90 · October 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

you know this will lead to the cries that the game is to hard from way to many players right...

Well no. This is pretty much for the 1% of players, there are a lot surprisingly, many don't post on the forums. But having a mode for them seeing as many casual players want the Veteran Mode to be nerfed seeing as Normal is far too easy it seems reasonable to have a harder mode, right?

There used to be alot of post about the dolmens and world bosses that they were to hard (to solo (what they aren't suposed to be)) and i have seen more then a few post about the IC vet dungeon's being to hard

Nifty2g · October 2015

Matem wrote: »

Many interesting ideas such as this were suggested in the council yesterday but I think nobody realises that if there's more reward (even the tiniest amount) doing the harder content, casual players will want to do it regardless. Then they will mass cry on forums for nerfs and they will get them. Which leads us to square one.

I mean this has been repeated over and over many times already, it should be clear by now that zos will cater to casual players. Vet content nerf, dsa nerf, ic dungeons nerf, 2 weeks after orsinium msa nerf guaranteed.

The only way you could get really hard content without potential nerfs is by making rewards the same. But then again what'd be the point doing the hard content...

Yeah I posted this before the meeting, when they brought it up I thought I may as well bump this, I do agree slightly higher gear EVERYONE thinks they are entitled to be able to complete the content, which I understand it's ZOS's philosophy to make everyone equals well it hasn't been said but I assume that anyway. It's upsetting but I wish for once they would leave content hard, not only is it healthy for the game but it promotes players to pursue a healthy playstyle improving their builds etc instead of saying "i cant beat this day 1, it's the end. nerf it it's too hard i can't adapt"

Just my thoughts, I hope ZOS does take a look at this and eventually impliments it. @ZOS_RichLambert just a nice concept I was hoping for you to look at. This would ALSO make 15 minute trials much longer because of longer fights etc and reworking builds for sustain problems etc

Malmai · October 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

This thread and idea is for the players that like a challenge, that want difficult content and player separation from what it is now, because I believe the competitive PvE competition is a dying age hard to revive what it once was due to all of the nerfing content to suit the more casual player.

My idea I propose is called Nightmare Mode, a more difficult mode than Veteran, no new mechanics but increase the difficulty of Trials/Dungeons and VDSA existing and new ones to come. I also believe to separate the leader boards from Veteran and Nightmare this would further increase the competition in a heavy way for the more hardcore player.

In terms of dropped item sets, I believe the drop rate should be higher or have some other reward but nothing too over the top. This is mainly for player competition and separation between the more casual player and the ones who want to prove themselves being #1 on the leader-boards

I believe with the upcoming DLC Pack Orsinium it would be a great idea to look at something like this (Unless you guys already have), to help bring a new revival to ESO PvE.

So what do you guys think?

Why dont u go nightmare mode and with 0 drops if you want to enjoy challenge ? u want harder stuff with better drop rates cuz u have 2k CP and it will be easy for u to farm and sell to lows for millions ?

Nifty2g · October 2015

Malmai wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

This thread and idea is for the players that like a challenge, that want difficult content and player separation from what it is now, because I believe the competitive PvE competition is a dying age hard to revive what it once was due to all of the nerfing content to suit the more casual player.

My idea I propose is called Nightmare Mode, a more difficult mode than Veteran, no new mechanics but increase the difficulty of Trials/Dungeons and VDSA existing and new ones to come. I also believe to separate the leader boards from Veteran and Nightmare this would further increase the competition in a heavy way for the more hardcore player.

In terms of dropped item sets, I believe the drop rate should be higher or have some other reward but nothing too over the top. This is mainly for player competition and separation between the more casual player and the ones who want to prove themselves being #1 on the leader-boards

I believe with the upcoming DLC Pack Orsinium it would be a great idea to look at something like this (Unless you guys already have), to help bring a new revival to ESO PvE.

So what do you guys think?

Why dont u go nightmare mode and with 0 drops if you want to enjoy challenge ? u want harder stuff with better drop rates cuz u have 2k CP and it will be easy for u to farm and sell to lows for millions ?

I have 700cp, 200 above cap hardly a difference, gear is bop cant sell it
Stop with pointless qq please

helediron · October 2015

My previous MMO, Dungeons and Dragons Online (DDO) had four difficulty levels: casual, normal, hard, elite. People liked that system. When entering dungeon, the group leader chose difficulty level. Comparing to ESO, Eso normal is DDO casual, and ESO vet is close to DDO hard. I think ESO should implement similar four-level difficulty system. There might be 20% casuals, 5% elite and roughly equal amount of normals and hards.

I played in DDO at all those levels, but stayed usually on hard. Elites were "serious" and often scrutinized my build and role, but i clearly saw how they got their kicks from passing the hardest content through. I felt it less fun but my role was in high demand, and therefore got often invitations to elite raids. Normal and hard were most popular and sometimes varied from raid to raid. ESO veteran pledges and trials are close to those difficulty levels, where people have to be geared up and know what to do, or willing to learn. Casuals were fun-loving, chatty groups that were enjoying the game, and wanted it as social event. I have definitely identified same range of people in ESO. That is why i think it would do good for the game if ESO implemented same kind of four level difficulty system.

Elite level did give best rewards but not too much. All difficulty levels gave pretty much same rewards but with different probability. I think that is better way to what ESO does. Best players can show off new gear, but it is actually the worse players who need the best gear. In DDO they eventually got it.

Leaderboards should be divided by difficulty level. Elite board would naturally be the the bleeding edge with special rewards. I would probably choose hard difficulty, and leaderboard position wouldn't mean much, but it would be nice to check occasionally.

BTW, DDO has great LFM system that could teach a thing or two to ESO LFG coders.

DisgracefulMind · October 2015

Malmai wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

This thread and idea is for the players that like a challenge, that want difficult content and player separation from what it is now, because I believe the competitive PvE competition is a dying age hard to revive what it once was due to all of the nerfing content to suit the more casual player.

My idea I propose is called Nightmare Mode, a more difficult mode than Veteran, no new mechanics but increase the difficulty of Trials/Dungeons and VDSA existing and new ones to come. I also believe to separate the leader boards from Veteran and Nightmare this would further increase the competition in a heavy way for the more hardcore player.

In terms of dropped item sets, I believe the drop rate should be higher or have some other reward but nothing too over the top. This is mainly for player competition and separation between the more casual player and the ones who want to prove themselves being #1 on the leader-boards

I believe with the upcoming DLC Pack Orsinium it would be a great idea to look at something like this (Unless you guys already have), to help bring a new revival to ESO PvE.

So what do you guys think?

Why dont u go nightmare mode and with 0 drops if you want to enjoy challenge ? u want harder stuff with better drop rates cuz u have 2k CP and it will be easy for u to farm and sell to lows for millions ?

What's wrong with players wanting a challenging difficulty mode? Also, throwing out this "you have 2k CP" thing is really just childish. Especially when it's so far from the truth. And the loot drops in the new dungeons, the more desired sets, are BoP, so selling isn't an issue.

Would rather see constructive feedback in this thread over QQing.

ZoS please give us Nightmare mode!!

UltimaJoe777 · October 2015

Want a challenge? Go in Veteran Difficulty naked. Simple as that!

By naked I mean no Armor and/or Jewelry, just Weapons.

medieval_TOG · October 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Want a challenge? Go in Veteran Difficulty naked. Simple as that!

By naked I mean no Armor and/or Jewelry, just Weapons.

Can you wear costumes?

Shunravi · October 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Want a challenge? Go in Veteran Difficulty naked. Simple as that!

By naked I mean no Armor and/or Jewelry, just Weapons.

Pretty sure the naked nords do that a lot. I've done it too. Meh, it's fun I guess.... We even posted videos here back when. I think it was coincidentally a time where gear qq was popular, though I could be mistaken.

Oh_Skrivva · October 2015

What if item sets that drop are gold. Thus saving the player from using gold tempers to improve item if it's in the trait they desire or they can decon for chance for gold temper and mats if not. That reward wouldn't be to over the top to force people to only do nightmare versions.

UltimaJoe777 · October 2015

medieval_TOG wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Want a challenge? Go in Veteran Difficulty naked. Simple as that!

By naked I mean no Armor and/or Jewelry, just Weapons.

Can you wear costumes?

Only if your group leader allows it.

Sausage · October 2015

Didnt someone just say Orsinium is way too hard atm.

I think Trial fans needs to wait for Murkmire. Its basically Craglorn 2. They probably revisit Craglorn Trials too and leaderboard system. Murkmire also adds new Trials. Murkmire cant be that far, I'd bet next year for sure, Q2-Q4.

Also they cant give you uber stuff, Ive proposed similiar system to Cyrodil's ranks, lots of Titles and Skill Points rewards. IMHO, they just tie them both together. Theres gonna be arguing about who has better rewards anyway.

Nifty2g · October 2015

Oh_Skrivva wrote: »

What if item sets that drop are gold. Thus saving the player from using gold tempers to improve item if it's in the trait they desire or they can decon for chance for gold temper and mats if not. That reward wouldn't be to over the top to force people to only do nightmare versions.

I agree, anyone can walk through Normal mode no problem, most of the players say its far too easy and move to Veteran mode and the gap is huge between those 2, no player can progress in such a way that will just ruin you, you can almost get through normal with any build you want to.

ZOS needs to make an even progression system, Veteran mode should include VR16 gear and slightly less harder than it is now, Nightmare Mode should include VR16 gear with slightly stronger enchantments on them (Undaunted sets not included), this not only evenly spreads out the player progression but is a very nice way to do so and to have healthy competition. Or like said above quote, gear should drop in Legendary Quality I much like that idea

Having 2 modes will make 1 or the other cry as Veteran is designed for Hardcore Players, but Normal is far to easy and it becomes a huge problem when 1 party wants the other party to be nerfed and because the other party is much larger then Veteran Mode inevitably gets nerfed. Nightmare Mode should grant immunity against that system and always be hard forcing players to actually progress and adapt.

Just my thought @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert I know the team is short but this is something to look forward to for the future if you ever implement it, divide up the leaderboards for it too.

Van_0S · October 2015

Nightmare means NPC can do 1 hit ko to you.
You will lose your gear,gold, builds and your toon is erased for good.

UltimaJoe777 · October 2015

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

Nightmare means NPC can to 1 hit ko to you.
You will lose your gear,gold, builds and your toon is erased for good.

Sounds like you literally had that nightmare lol

Van_0S · October 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

Nightmare means NPC can to 1 hit ko to you.
You will lose your gear,gold, builds and your toon is erased for good.

Sounds like you literally had that nightmare lol

Well, Demon souls had that mechanics but they erased it when it was released.

Nifty2g · October 2015

Lol not that extreme but I'd like to see mobs having crit values and being able to crit hit you like they used to be able to. Let mobs have more of a resistance against your critical ratings etc, I think it'll be fun