[Concept] ESO PvE Nightmare/Heroic Mode

SienneYviete

Titles alone would make this worthwhile, I remember when having the Boethiah's scythe title meant something and other players that saw it knew that.

kupacmac

I like the idea. However, the drops should just be used to augment crafting IMO, nothing really useable as gear.

Nifty2g

I'm not sure about Vanity I think a lot of players will want to try and get it and will complain if they can't... but legendary items would void this as it's just item quality of the same gear

Senaxu

I really like your idea @Nifty2g but you know it already.

But there should be a little achievement for do no death run or speedrun in this HEROIC ( oh yes i like this description) mode.
Nothing special(no better gear) so that casual players are not punished to not be able to do it. Just let it be a unique title or at least a mount, pet what don't affect your DPS or abilitys, but that shows "Wow they really did it and its really rare".
That would be nice!

Dymence

Senaxu wrote: »

I really like your idea @Nifty2g but you know it already.

But there should be a little achievement for do no death run or speedrun in this HEROIC ( oh yes i like this description) mode.
Nothing special(no better gear) so that casual players are not punished to not be able to do it. Just let it be a unique title or at least a mount, pet what don't affect your DPS or abilitys, but that shows "Wow they really did it and its really rare".
That would be nice!

I pretty much agree with this aswell.

I just want to have something relatively 'unique' in the game that not everyone has to show off some skill.

For example, that's why I used the necrotic hoarvor pet when I completed all the achievements in the new vet IC dungeons at VR16, only to later realize several people couldn't do it, scaled it down to VR1 and got it like that. Made the entire achievement void and the reward meaningless.

Exclusive rewards such as titles and pets/mounts/visual upgrades are really nice when they are just that, exclusive.

That's what I hope to see some day along with the challenge of actual hard content.

Cuyler

I really like the idea of adding the trophy system to trials. That way each mode could simply increase the amount of trophies received. For example, take the serpent fight:

on regular drops 6 trophies
on hardmode drops 10 trophies
on Heroic (like the name as well) 16 trophies

This way the same gear is offered to every player type just at varying rates. Just add a chest at the end that could be updated whenever to include whatever the new BiS gear is.

edit: oh and titles definitely, costumes/vanity etc would be cool too but could lead to animosity from the have nots.

EgoRush

Ah the hoarver, I named mine Harry and was so pleased for having done both dungeons with no death at V16.

What about loot with stronger enchantments? Like with completing hard mode trials. Yes, the difference is negligible, but if this was to be buffed (as I'm sure we'll all agree should happen), then I'd definitely try to complete Heroic mode so my set drop was more-than-slightly better than people who can't complete it.

I'd like to think only the top % of people would go through the effort to min/max a build that much. Those who can complete veteran and get the same gear but with a slightly weaker enchant really aren't going to care much. Maybe?

Nifty2g

EgoRush wrote: »

Ah the hoarver, I named mine Harry and was so pleased for having done both dungeons with no death at V16.

What about loot with stronger enchantments? Like with completing hard mode trials. Yes, the difference is negligible, but if this was to be buffed (as I'm sure we'll all agree should happen), then I'd definitely try to complete Heroic mode so my set drop was more-than-slightly better than people who can't complete it.

I'd like to think only the top % of people would go through the effort to min/max a build that much. Those who can complete veteran and get the same gear but with a slightly weaker enchant really aren't going to care much. Maybe?

I called mine Boil, WGT was easy the hard one I think was Prison, that Lord Warden fight gets scary with how the Portals currently work.

I like the idea of a stronger enchantment like hardmode I just feel like players who can't complete will cause an uprising

schroed360

Matem wrote: »

Many interesting ideas such as this were suggested in the council yesterday but I think nobody realises that if there's more reward (even the tiniest amount) doing the harder content, casual players will want to do it regardless. Then they will mass cry on forums for nerfs and they will get them. Which leads us to square one.

I mean this has been repeated over and over many times already, it should be clear by now that zos will cater to casual players. Vet content nerf, dsa nerf, ic dungeons nerf, 2 weeks after orsinium msa nerf guaranteed.

The only way you could get really hard content without potential nerfs is by making rewards the same. But then again what'd be the point doing the hard content...

Totally agree with that . Hard mode for fun?yea! more reward ? No or else back to nerfing cycle.

Senaxu

schroed360 wrote: »

Matem wrote: »

Many interesting ideas such as this were suggested in the council yesterday but I think nobody realises that if there's more reward (even the tiniest amount) doing the harder content, casual players will want to do it regardless. Then they will mass cry on forums for nerfs and they will get them. Which leads us to square one.

I mean this has been repeated over and over many times already, it should be clear by now that zos will cater to casual players. Vet content nerf, dsa nerf, ic dungeons nerf, 2 weeks after orsinium msa nerf guaranteed.

The only way you could get really hard content without potential nerfs is by making rewards the same. But then again what'd be the point doing the hard content...

Totally agree with that . Hard mode for fun?yea! more reward ? No or else back to nerfing cycle.

Well at least a title for the heroicmode don't hurts anyone. it just say's "this player was able to do clear the dungeon in heroic mode". and if you are not able to you dont get it. in RL if you want a title (Dr, Master) you have to earn them and you can't say "oh, pls make it easier to get Dr, Master that i can wear the title too". just no. And for the player's who made it it's some progress.

Personofsecrets

Nifty2g wrote: »

Lol not that extreme but I'd like to see mobs having crit values and being able to crit hit you like they used to be able to. Let mobs have more of a resistance against your critical ratings etc, I think it'll be fun

@ZOS_GinaBruno , you have some splanin to do!

EgoRush

Senaxu wrote: »

schroed360 wrote: »

Matem wrote: »

Many interesting ideas such as this were suggested in the council yesterday but I think nobody realises that if there's more reward (even the tiniest amount) doing the harder content, casual players will want to do it regardless. Then they will mass cry on forums for nerfs and they will get them. Which leads us to square one.

I mean this has been repeated over and over many times already, it should be clear by now that zos will cater to casual players. Vet content nerf, dsa nerf, ic dungeons nerf, 2 weeks after orsinium msa nerf guaranteed.

The only way you could get really hard content without potential nerfs is by making rewards the same. But then again what'd be the point doing the hard content...

Totally agree with that . Hard mode for fun?yea! more reward ? No or else back to nerfing cycle.

Well at least a title for the heroicmode don't hurts anyone. it just say's "this player was able to do clear the dungeon in heroic mode". and if you are not able to you dont get it. in RL if you want a title (Dr, Master) you have to earn them and you can't say "oh, pls make it easier to get Dr, Master that i can wear the title too". just no. And for the player's who made it it's some progress.

Agreed. I like the idea of a new accolade associated with it. Accolades aren't as sought after as better gear and vanity items.

Personofsecrets

Nifty2g wrote: »

I just feel like players who can't complete will cause an uprising

Well yes, that will certainly happen.

I think that one question is to ask what percent of people will a harder difficulty satisfy in a meaningful way and for how long it will satisfy them. Challenge, to some people, is like a drug - it can't be gotten enough of and the junkie requires more and more to get the same effect. Challenge, to other people, involves never being able to clear the first boss of SO for months until their guild eventually breaks up over the whole dilemma.

There is a real careful balancing act with difficulty. Let's look at the first damage nerf that happened to the two new vet dungeons for example. I didn't mind the nerf as it was tiring having the DPS getting one-shot by trash mobs. Some people were really upset about that nerf though and it is therefore tough to say what the utilitarian thing to do is and what the right thing to do is.

Dymence

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Let's look at the first damage nerf that happened to the two new vet dungeons for example. I didn't mind the nerf as it was tiring having the DPS getting one-shot by trash mobs. Some people were really upset about that nerf though and it is therefore tough to say what the utilitarian thing to do is and what the right thing to do is.

The nerf was unnecessary, though. If you think about it, what mobs were able to oneshot DPS to begin with? For vWGT it was the xivkyn sword and shield guy's bash, the mobs that throw knives and mobs with whirlwind. For all of these things, there are 2 things that could've gone wrong if you died to them.

1. The tank didn't have aggro
2. You didn't interrupt the mob/step out of red

Nerfing these to not pose any danger anymore was just literally dumbing it down. I've personally always felt stupid when I died to these. Not because "omg they deal too much damage nerf pls", but because it was my own dumb fault to die to them in the first place.

Nifty2g

Dymence wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Let's look at the first damage nerf that happened to the two new vet dungeons for example. I didn't mind the nerf as it was tiring having the DPS getting one-shot by trash mobs. Some people were really upset about that nerf though and it is therefore tough to say what the utilitarian thing to do is and what the right thing to do is.

The nerf was unnecessary, though. If you think about it, what mobs were able to oneshot DPS to begin with? For vWGT it was the xivkyn sword and shield guy's bash, the mobs that throw knives and mobs with whirlwind. For all of these things, there are 2 things that could've gone wrong if you died to them.

1. The tank didn't have aggro
2. You didn't interrupt the mob/step out of red

Nerfing these to not pose any danger anymore was just literally dumbing it down.

Like I normally say, with all the recent changes this game has had - ZOS promotes a very unhealthy gameplay style, it's okay to die, it's okay to stand in red it's not your fault. Just need to pay attention really to whats happening on your screen instead of sitting there pressing one button staring off into the distance zoning out, that's what majority of these dungeons and trials feel like.
I really do hope ZOS take a look at this thread and like the idea

EgoRush

Dymence wrote: »

Not because "omg they deal too much damage nerf pls", but because it was my own dumb fault to die to them in the first place.

YES. When I died to Whirlwind I would feel like a moron and think "why didn't I just move out of the way..." that is my fault to be one-shotted. If you know you're going to make those mistakes often then simply run with more health! It's that easy. Nerf was unnecessary and promotes lazy play.

Nifty2g

EgoRush wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Not because "omg they deal too much damage nerf pls", but because it was my own dumb fault to die to them in the first place.

YES. When I died to Whirlwind I would feel like a moron and think "why didn't I just move out of the way..." that is my fault to be one-shotted. If you know you're going to make those mistakes often then simply run with more health! It's that easy. Nerf was unnecessary and promotes lazy play.

Same except my people in group always point it out when someone dies to it. It's no a healing problem or a tank problem it's a you problem for standing in red.

AtriasNaradan

Honestly, if it's just title, as challenging as it get, i for one would only do it once. I think the reward should just be more experiences, golds and the exact same item drops as veteran, but at a much higher probability for the difficulty that's above veteran. That way, people who can't do it don't have any base to complain, because everything they can get on higher difficulties, they can get just the same on veteran...just on a higher drop chance.

Vanity things also good as an addition, no one can get validation from complaining that they can't get a certain optional vanity item just because they can't finished higher than veteran difficulty mode.

EgoRush

AtriasNaradan wrote: »

Honestly, if it's just title, as challenging as it get, i for one would only do it once. I think the reward should just be more experiences, golds and the exact same item drops as veteran, but at a much higher probability for the difficulty that's above veteran. That way, people who can't do it don't have any base to complain, because everything they can get on higher difficulties, they can get just the same on veteran...just on a higher drop chance.

Vanity things also good as an addition, no one can get validation from complaining that they can't get a certain optional vanity item just because they can't finished higher than veteran difficulty mode.

Huh, I like that the drops should be the same but with a higher drop rate for Heroic. I think that's a very good idea.

Senaxu

AtriasNaradan wrote: »

Honestly, if it's just title, as challenging as it get, i for one would only do it once. I think the reward should just be more experiences, golds and the exact same item drops as veteran, but at a much higher probability for the difficulty that's above veteran. That way, people who can't do it don't have any base to complain, because everything they can get on higher difficulties, they can get just the same on veteran...just on a higher drop chance.

Vanity things also good as an addition, no one can get validation from complaining that they can't get a certain optional vanity item just because they can't finished higher than veteran difficulty mode.

Better dropdrate for Heroic mod? @ZOS_GinaBruno Thats really something you should take in consideration.

Eleusian

Anytime someone finds everything too easy they can always drop their CP and play vet content in level 25 gear. That's easier than developing a ton of new content for .001% . Good luck on nightmare mode or whatever I would just like a damn chat box

Personofsecrets

Well, players aren't always super rewarded for being able to quickly react to something.

Let's look at teleporting mages for example. They can be CCd out of their AOE ability, but around half of the time that they do so, I'm not able to prevent it. I end up unable to target the mage, some other enemy gets in the way, or I was too slow (or quick) on the draw. I'm not sure if players can consistently hit the razor thin margins that it takes to prevent themselves from being instant killed from some abilities. I also don't trust ZOS to hit the razor thin margin of balance that it takes to make enemies feel challenging, but fair.

Let's look at the Crematorial Guards for example. I felt that they were way over tuned on the PTS and although I can tank them, I just didn't find them to be fun enemy. Now, with their damage being nerfd, they are back in the same unfun spot because their fire breath can't even fully penetrate my harness magic shield.

Overall there are only a certain number of players that have the mentality which allows them to quickly respond to threatening attacks, what constitutes threatening and fun versus threatening and dumb is on a razor thin margin of error, and even if all of the good players in the game felt challenged we have yet to identify if that challenge level is correct for most of the players in the game or is correct for making ZOS the most cash.

Tholian1

Cuyler wrote: »

I really like the idea of adding the trophy system to trials. That way each mode could simply increase the amount of trophies received. For example, take the serpent fight:

on regular drops 6 trophies
on hardmode drops 10 trophies
on Heroic (like the name as well) 16 trophies

This way the same gear is offered to every player type just at varying rates. Just add a chest at the end that could be updated whenever to include whatever the new BiS gear is.

edit: oh and titles definitely, costumes/vanity etc would be cool too but could lead to animosity from the have nots.

I love this idea. Players of all abilities can have eventual access to the newest gear with the collection of enough trophies. I also have no issue with the "Elites" getting rewarded with a special title.

Corpsage

Cool concept. 10/10 would bump again.

Furor

But all the casuals won't get to experience Nightmare..
So we should implement Normal, Veteran, Nightmare, AND Heroic...

But all the casuals won't get to experience Heroic...
So we should implement Normal, Veteran, Nightmare, Heroic, AND Hell...

But all the casuals won't get to experience Hell....

Oh_Skrivva

I really like the trophies idea. If I may add to the rewards idea. You know how in trials where every week you can activate quest to get a loot reward bag once complete. What if every week you can do the same thing in all group dungeons in all modes. Of course the level of difficulty reg/vet/nightmare will drop appropriate loot from the reward bag. This will also give players more incentive to run these dungeons more instead of just doing certain group dungeons when it is the pledge for the day. So essentially you can get 3 reward bags from each dungeon weekly if you did each one in every difficulty setting. Also it would be a nice xp gain as well from quest turn in as well.

Nifty2g

@ZOS_Finn
Please look into this

Dubhliam

Wonderful idea, am just going to chime in with my feedback:

I prefer the Nightmare name, Heroic is casual friendly, and they might feel entitled to be able to complete it, resulting in nerfs.
The dungeons should stay EXACTLY the same as veteran, no new mechanics, just buffed up to be challenging.
The incentive:
- a guaranteed Epic set drop from every boss
- a guaranteed Legendary set drop from the final boss (same drop% of monster helmets)
- two gold keys for the veteran pledge
- an achievement for completing all 4 man dungeons on Nightmare mode (no special mounts, title only)

My idea was that Nightmare mode could be activated inside a veteran dungeon, near the entrance.
Like the tomes before final bosses, but maybe they should incorporate the new "vote" mechanic.
As long as the dungeon timer hasn't started, the group can activate the Nightmare mode.

Attackopsn

Would love to see this! I really hope that if vdsa is given this difficulty it would be awesome to see the portals become immune to pre-damaging abilities similar to vma