I used to be a tank like you . . .

nordsavage · October 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

One thing to consider is that with the IC PVE/PVP zone, people are desiring to have the same build that works in both PVE and PVP.

I think that @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @zos_ericwrobel's comments on gear and skills being cosmopolitan has sort of backfired. They say how one vision for the game is for players to be able to go back and forth from PVE to PVP and be just as effective with the same gear.

I don't think that this works for tanks when going from PVE to PVP and to still be part of the developers vision, tanks found something that they could use in PVP and then try to adapt it to PVE.

I don't mean to explain away what is occurring, but just frame things as I see them. I get how many players aiming to being multi-role can be frustrating. It would be nice if people would preface their posts with their primary way of playing (pve or pvp) so that we could gauge their actions from that point.

This assuming the developers actually play the game like we do at all. You have to figure that if they did at some point the deficiencies and lowering quality of game play associated with the change would have been self evident. You brought up multi-role builds. I have a prime example of how players are being choked as far as versatility. All of my alts are decidedly one role decisions but my main, a DK Nord, needs to be everything. It is the character on which I prefer to play. I use it to collect all achievements. With it I soloed everything in my first play through that could be soloed leveling every skill and morph. I was fair at PvP having hit the top ten for emperor a few times not being dedicated in gear or build. I had an off tank dps set that could almost match the dps of the meta builds pulling 1.3k when the super sorcs were pulling 1.5k. Then things like ultimate gain were nerfed and my good off dps lowered from great to good or fair. Soft caps were removed and I am less competitive in PvP being a hardened PvE player so I cut it out for the most part. Now this no regen while blocking comes and I am having to consider cutting out the dps set to maintain a superior tank. Things are getting rough for old Kodaav here. #SaveTheShield <I know its lame but I like an over used joke or meme..

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · October 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

uh... the proper term is sadist..... i go out of my way to annoy the hell out of the enemy and torment them in their efforts as much as possible. all in seriousness, i tried a few gear changes, and found i prefer my tank set. my skill line is dot heavy (yes i know purge thats why i dot), with fiery chain on my S&B line, and dot+DD with fiery chain, on my 2hander line. the point of my build is specifically to pull targets to the group or out of theirs, soften them as much as possible for DPS, and to kill if able. i think thats the key to tanks in ESO, you soften targets for others and disrupt the enemy. you certainly can't use your PVE skill lines that you use in tanking. its just like all PVP where you need to build for it. Proper CPs, and abilities are the key to having any worthwhile contribution in PVP.

that being said..... since i don't have block and dodge roll maxed in the champion system..... block... eeeeeh im probably dead so might as well, and dodge, twice and im done (well maybe more like 2.5 but who cares about .5). the cap concerns me cuz now i may have to make sure i build for PVE which will make me suck more in PVP.

Well, I do think the main line of thinking behind tanking is a little sadistic. You savor destroying the enemy slowly. The reason I'm saying its masochistic right now is that mostly we're just big punching bags now, with very little capacity to debuff/control at least no where remotely what we had. This IC patch was a stark contrast. I realize you were joking, but I just want to be clear where I was going with it.

Your last part really drives my point home. Its really ridiculous that for you to PVE tank, that you have to be so weak in pvp that you can maybe block or dodge roll (and do nothing else) 2.5 times before you're toast. If you're lucky that means you maybe popped obsidian shield and inhale/exhale a couple times as well, neither of which represent a threat to anyone. The more you push your magic stats up, the more you can make use of your defensives which will increase your pvp survivability while simultaneously making you less useful in Dungeons. Its a pretty bad system, and one that really relies on the healer to be your constant 'battery'. In essence its shoving a lot of the tanks duty squarely on the shoulders of the healer, and I suspect the IC changes to be pretty annoying to healers as well. (Edited to add: I mean to say it must be particularly annoying to healers in challenging pve content).

with the IC changes, tanks simply have to do more mitigating building, and less DPS building. thats why tanks are gonna really get hosed on the faux catch-up proposal. the champion system was a gap filler for tanks, whom have always been build heavy. they adjusted the game around the champion system instead of vice versa, so now you HAVE to have expenses into the champion system to compensate. this has ultimately effected everyone- tanks, DPS, healers. to compensate for the changes tanks need more emphasis on tank CPs, just like DPS need more on DPS, and healers, healing. its more for the compensation of a bad and poorly thought out solution to a niche problem.

with regards to the IC changes, and the CP proposal, who ever thought these ideas were the "best" route, i woulda fired, and i would really have to bite my tongue on what i would really like to tell em so i wouldn't get sued. the IC changes should have been on the champion system, not the games total system. the CP catch-up, is a bull *** life extension for the CP that stands to hose players, and essentially rip off the ones that paid extra for the progression. both cases are situations where a 1 week tweak fixing the problem, was replaced with a 1 month cluster ***. that sounds like a frivolous use of company time and money. not sure if they were being stupid, lazy, incompetent, or trying to pad their pay checks, but i wouldn't say they are the best ways to fix a problem.

their solutions were more in line with "time for an oil change, so lets rebuild the engine"...

aialghannam_ESO · October 2015

What was said above is pretty much what I've been thinking: This whole stamina nerf was NOT needed at all. It added nothing to the game! instead, it relegated a once very interesting role into a very boring one, sadly.

Wing · October 2015

aialghannam_ESO wrote: »

What was said above is pretty much what I've been thinking: This whole stamina nerf was NOT needed at all. It added nothing to the game! instead, it relegated a once very interesting role into a very boring one, sadly.

so very true.

not only that it has really narrowed build design as most people are trying to build around and circumvent the nerf, cause you know, it sucks.

nordsavage · October 2015

I noticed that since magicka based players have the stamina pool open for blocking they die less in aoe mob fights while stamina players cannot block or end up dead in the water with damage output. The nerf is very biased.

paulsimonps · October 2015

nordsavage wrote: »

I noticed that since magicka based players have the stamina pool open for blocking they die less in aoe mob fights while stamina players cannot block or end up dead in the water with damage output. The nerf is very biased.

I'm stamina and I don't have that problem. While yea going magicka leaves your stamina open for blocking only, being stamina gives you a large pool to work with. I don't know how others feel about it but I got no issues with my stamina in large groups. Then again the large groups they do die pretty fast anyway. vICP and vWGT don't have that large groups for their trash mobs and the trash mobs in other dungeons are just to weak to be a threat.

nordsavage · October 2015

paulsimonps wrote: »

I'm stamina and I don't have that problem. While yea going magicka leaves your stamina open for blocking only, being stamina gives you a large pool to work with. I don't know how others feel about it but I got no issues with my stamina in large groups. Then again the large groups they do die pretty fast anyway. vICP and vWGT don't have that large groups for their trash mobs and the trash mobs in other dungeons are just to weak to be a threat.

I am posting an observation and I am not saying it is an epidemic but the majority of AOE fight deaths I see are stamina players. I do not care if it is not you personally it is not my point.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · October 2015

nordsavage wrote: »

I noticed that since magicka based players have the stamina pool open for blocking they die less in aoe mob fights while stamina players cannot block or end up dead in the water with damage output. The nerf is very biased.

i see your point, and to a degree agree. on the flip side, i would be curious as to their combat prowess. if they are using magicka and build for it, they may hit like a freight train and could be viable. the other question, is how do they stack their CPs.

i use 3 stamina and 2 magicka based abilities, so i have to play the middle. i tend to put the magicka in the middle of my rotation to give my stamina bar a break. besides, i have a magicka bar, i might as well use it too lol.

still doesn't justify the changes in my opinion though....

DezKoth87 · October 2015

Greetings fellow tanks! I am a Nord DK Tank, born and raised in the icy harsh lands of Eastmarch and trained by the best soldiers the Great Tameriel has to offer. I've fought countless battles and spilled many a foes blood along with my own to protect our land from the darkest of evils. My brothers in arms have sacrificed so much for this land...our home. But now a new evil shows its face, an evil so foul that the very mentioning of its name causes maidens to faint and children to cry. Im talking about the ZoS!!!!! Its spread across our land like wild fire nerfing everything in its path! No one is safe from the long reaches of the nerf, not even me and my tanking brethren. For those trolls and false believers that think tanks have an easy job and that we should stop complaining about the poison ZoS has cursed us with know not the ignorance of ur words. We tanks are a proud people with a tight bond. We have and will bleed for our groups, die for our groups, and we will endure the most savage of evils in the land because... its our job. We have a duty to protect and serve our people and families and we do this NOT by hiding in the shadows, NOT by running away from danger, NOT by blaming our brothers. We do this by walking straight up to the beast, face to face, and looking them in the eye with no fear of death. Tanks do not hide, tanks do not run, we stand and fight. And for the monster that is ZoS to nerf our stamina regen is a travesty!!! For those of u that belittle the tanks know not the sacrifice we tanks endure during a battle AND in the economy! And for those that think tanking is just blocking, uve obviously have never tanked or met a tank worth knowing if that's all they do! We don't favor magicka, we don't abuse DPS, we don't use stealth, what we have is heart. But we have enough heart to take on the most evil of devils that polute Tameriel, a thousand times over! We are tanks! That's what we do, we die so that others may live! I hope all of u take that into consideration the next time u see a tank! Get off ur arses and on ur feet and give them the respect they deserve and let them know that their sacrifice does not go unnoticed. And for those that don't agree can go chew on a daggerbacks arse! We are the tanks of Tameriel and we arnt going anywhere! THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Praise Talos!!!!!!!!!

hrothbern · October 2015

"hear, hear"

We have a duty to protect and serve our fellow people and we do this NOT by hiding in the shadows, NOT by running away from the danger, NOT by blaming our brothers.

hrothbern · October 2015

and in these running skirmishes, these running zerges there and back...

why do we not have the "shield wall" ability ?
hooking our shields, with our comrades left and right, to stand our ground in one wall of shields

what magic has this taken away???

DezKoth87 · October 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

and in these running skirmishes, these running zerges there and back...

why do we not have the "shield wall" ability ?
hooking our shields, with our comrades left and right, to stand our ground in one wall of shields

what magic has this taken away???

Well I'll be a zit on Talos's arse! That's a great idea! Only a true tank would come up with such a dominating tactical move! Hear! Hear!

Shunravi · October 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

and in these running skirmishes, these running zerges there and back...

why do we not have the "shield wall" ability ?
hooking our shields, with our comrades left and right, to stand our ground in one wall of shields

what magic has this taken away???

essentially create terrain, but a tactically difficult manoeuvre to pull off. Yea, that would be awesome.

Perhaps a secondary effect of defensive posture. Maybe activated by some other ability.

Ah, a guy can dream...

DezKoth87 · October 2015

I agree...defensive posture is boring. It needs a lil something to sweetin the deal.

hrothbern · October 2015

DezKoth87 wrote: »

I agree...defensive posture is boring. It needs a lil something to sweetin the deal.

If the shield wall morph of Defensive Posture would make a physical room for that player, like NPC's, it would make rushing through you of a zerg, going there and back, impossible !

in this way a couple of shield wall tanks can form a defense line that cannot be rushed through, but must be killed first.
This would greatly enhance open field battling in Cyrodill.
and would limit the mindless rushing of zergs. ( BTW, I have nothing against coordinated pushing of big groups !)

There are no increased damage or mitigation effects, so no OP effect whatsoever

Only combat advantages IF a group can coordinate

I think that would be awesome to do with a good group

DezKoth87 · October 2015

I totally agree, but it would take ALOT to get something like that done in the game. And it might be a lil OP.

hrothbern · October 2015

DezKoth87 wrote: »

I totally agree, but it would take ALOT to get something like that done in the game. And it might be a lil OP.

But not OP because of increased Damage or mitigation
and it will cost precious Stamina to cast the Defensive Posture morph

but very strong because of coordinated group teamwork

whereby noted that it only counters zergs
so it counters a current OP effect of the game.

DezKoth87 · October 2015

I see...

aialghannam_ESO · October 2015

After being a tank since launch, I finally respec'ed my tank today and dumped the shield. Switched to dps like the other 99% of ESO players. I'm not enjoying dps very much, I usually don't like playing dps roles in mmo's, but at least it's more fun the the pathetic state tanks are in ESO atm.

Will roll back to tanking after ZOS removes that needless stamina regen nerf.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

DezKoth87 wrote: »

I agree...defensive posture is boring. It needs a lil something to sweetin the deal.

If the shield wall morph of Defensive Posture would make a physical room for that player, like NPC's, it would make rushing through you of a zerg, going there and back, impossible !

in this way a couple of shield wall tanks can form a defense line that cannot be rushed through, but must be killed first.
This would greatly enhance open field battling in Cyrodill.
and would limit the mindless rushing of zergs. ( BTW, I have nothing against coordinated pushing of big groups !)

There are no increased damage or mitigation effects, so no OP effect whatsoever

Only combat advantages IF a group can coordinate

I think that would be awesome to do with a good group

This is a pretty good spin on my player collision idea, and requires a specific ability to do it. I love the notion of a proper shield wall and definitely approve of this idea.

Shunravi · October 2015

Shield wall ftw!

Personofsecrets · October 2015

aialghannam_ESO wrote: »

After being a tank since launch, I finally respec'ed my tank today and dumped the shield. Switched to dps like the other 99% of ESO players. I'm not enjoying dps very much, I usually don't like playing dps roles in mmo's, but at least it's more fun the the pathetic state tanks are in ESO atm.

Will roll back to tanking after ZOS removes that needless stamina regen nerf.

@ZOS_RichLambert

nordsavage · October 2015

Another observation I have had is that all of these magicka tanks do not have the stamina to maintain a defense in fights such as Valkyn Skoria. One petrify CC break free and there goes the aggro and block capability. Then the stamina jammers who have 30-40k stamina who still just hide behind shields. This change was pointless and just made more bad tanks while turning away lot of the fair or better ones. I have news for you ZOS, people are not acclimating like you thought they would. The rate at which I get called in to replace inferior tanks in final boss fights has significantly risen. I get it done but do not enjoy it like I use to.

https://youtu.be/LIU2Mnnmf8s

I know not the cleanest video posting but I have never done it before.

usmcjdking · October 2015

nordsavage wrote: »

Another observation I have had is that all of these magicka tanks do not have the stamina to maintain a defense in fights such as Valkyn Skoria. One petrify CC break free and there goes the aggro and block capability. Then the stamina jammers who have 30-40k stamina who still just hide behind shields. This change was pointless and just made more bad tanks while turning away lot of the fair or better ones. I have news for you ZOS, people are not acclimating like you thought they would. The rate at which I get called in to replace inferior tanks in final boss fights has significantly risen. I get it done but do not enjoy it like I use to.

https://youtu.be/LIU2Mnnmf8s

I know not the cleanest video posting but I have never done it before.

I ran vCOA 5 times the other day, was called in for a DSA run on the final boss and failed miserably at the inhibitor despite switching to DPS.

The game is so far stacked against tanks that even decent players are washing out hard at boss fights they shouldn't be. Meanwhile DPS & Healers generally don't have to do anything other than hit 1 button.

I feel your pain.

Tryxus · October 2015

I think I have an idea.... wait for it, it'll come...

Still coming...

Come on, almost there...

*PING*

How about making the Stam Block Regen and Dodge Roll Fatigue a part of the Battle Leveling in Cyrodiil? I mean, the changes were mostly done from a PvP point of view to "balance out" Magicka and Stamina users and the Battle Leveling in Cyro is meant to make things more fair for ppl.

That way, tanks can still enjoy all the aspects of PvE while the Battle Leveling could be used to introduce tweaks and changes for PvP (as well as help to balance out the classes too). A bit of a win-win scenario

aialghannam_ESO · October 2015

Tryxus wrote: »

I think I have an idea.... wait for it, it'll come...

Still coming...

Come on, almost there...

*PING*

How about making the Stam Block Regen and Dodge Roll Fatigue a part of the Battle Leveling in Cyrodiil? I mean, the changes were mostly done from a PvP point of view to "balance out" Magicka and Stamina users and the Battle Leveling in Cyro is meant to make things more fair for ppl.

That way, tanks can still enjoy all the aspects of PvE while the Battle Leveling could be used to introduce tweaks and changes for PvP (as well as help to balance out the classes too). A bit of a win-win scenario

That's a start.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

It seems like all the Tank threads are becoming a support group for tanks to complain about being battered by ZoS.

kupacmac · October 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

It seems like all the Tank threads are becoming a support group for tanks to complain about being battered by ZoS.

I know I could sure use a hug.

Septimus_Magna · October 2015

When I heard tanking was really hard I started leveling a Bosmer NB to try it out for myself.

Last week my NB turned v14 and I make a v14 purple tank set, 2x Engine Guardian, 5x Willows Path and 5x Footman

I have no problems tanking v16 vet dungeons with zero tanking experience, dont know what the fuss is about tbh.

Shunravi · October 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

When I heard tanking was really hard I started leveling a Bosmer NB to try it out for myself.

Last week my NB turned v14 and I make a v14 purple tank set, 2x Engine Guardian, 5x Willows Path and 5x Footman

I have no problems tanking v16 vet dungeons with zero tanking experience, dont know what the fuss is about tbh.

It's a difference in perspective. Actually, you are better off for not having prior experience.