SadieJoan wrote: »

That is true, all others did get their defences nerfed, but we are still ok really... Sorc can still use their shields for defence, Templars can still heal until the cows come home, and DK are still really tanky with all of their defensive skills to choose from, but if NB (especially magic NB's) have their cloak taken away from them, what do they have left??

Sorcs had the fantastically designed shield breaker set designed seemingly just for them, templars have to worry about healing debuffs and dk's are in the real odd space of needing to outlast enemies in a game where the ability to disengage and reengage is far more valued. NB's have cloak, they can teleport with shadow image, they gain the major armor buffs from any shadow skills use, they have an ultimate that saps health from 6 targets and a spammable aoe that saps health better than dk's inhale, they have another ultimate that provides 60% damage reduction, 2 % based burst heals that provide a decent amount, they have a hard cc that hits 3 targets doesn't break on damage then provides soft cc and a damage debuff. Want more?

Well, I play all 4 classes (though don't play my NB much as she is only vet 4) and I have no issues or complaints with my templar, sorc or DK. My Boyfriend plays a magicka NB and has done so since early access, and although he wouldn't write it on here because he isn't the kind of person to complain on forums, he struggles when it comes to damage, his damage being a fraction of mine, always, because he won't play another class as he doesn't enjoy them, and although he is very good in PvP, without cloak he would not be able to compete with other classes as effectively. He stays over at weekends and I have seen how much he relies on it, and even though NB's CAN use skills from stealth that hit hard, the main reason they use it, in my experience, is to escape. If cloak is nerfed, I think many NB's will struggle and perhaps even leave the game because of it, which would be horrible

NB's are annoying when they keep vanishing, but as other people say, countering it is easy! I find fighting other templars much more of a pain in the **** when we both stand there fighting each other, and then both have a little heal and are back to square one or sorc when they get hurt too much and bolt away, only to return again when their stats are full and with a huge shield that once you break through, is back again! DK could do with more mobility, probably more than templar I think, but NB's are fine how they are! They are my most killed class in my achievements by a long way, so even if they are a complete pain at times, I don't think their defences are great and I completely disagree that cloak needs nerfing. Stamina NB's get allot of damage through weapon abilities, but magic NB's's need cloak, as their damage sucks compared with other classes, even with buffs. It is their main survival skill.

DannyLV702 wrote: »

juan0316 wrote: »

Oh look yet another nerf cloack topic, l2p

You're the one that's gonna have to actually l2p when your iwin button is nerfed

its not an i win button its im going invisible you have to stop pressing wb and find me button.

CP5 wrote: »

SadieJoan wrote: »

That is true, all others did get their defences nerfed, but we are still ok really... Sorc can still use their shields for defence, Templars can still heal until the cows come home, and DK are still really tanky with all of their defensive skills to choose from, but if NB (especially magic NB's) have their cloak taken away from them, what do they have left??

Sorcs had the fantastically designed shield breaker set designed seemingly just for them, templars have to worry about healing debuffs and dk's are in the real odd space of needing to outlast enemies in a game where the ability to disengage and reengage is far more valued. NB's have cloak, they can teleport with shadow image, they gain the major armor buffs from any shadow skills use, they have an ultimate that saps health from 6 targets and a spammable aoe that saps health better than dk's inhale, they have another ultimate that provides 60% damage reduction, 2 % based burst heals that provide a decent amount, they have a hard cc that hits 3 targets doesn't break on damage then provides soft cc and a damage debuff. Want more?

Did you seriously just clump all of the Night Blade healer/tank and dps abilities into one and asked if we wanted more like all of that is really viable for one person to use? Lmao

You do nothing but poke people with a stick to get them going. I thought you said you were gonna leave the thread? haha

How many more threads are people going to make about this? ZOS already said they are looking at a nerf for this. Making more threads is not going to make them nerf it harder.

CP5 wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

SadieJoan wrote: »

That is true, all others did get their defences nerfed, but we are still ok really... Sorc can still use their shields for defence, Templars can still heal until the cows come home, and DK are still really tanky with all of their defensive skills to choose from, but if NB (especially magic NB's) have their cloak taken away from them, what do they have left??

Sorcs had the fantastically designed shield breaker set designed seemingly just for them, templars have to worry about healing debuffs and dk's are in the real odd space of needing to outlast enemies in a game where the ability to disengage and reengage is far more valued. NB's have cloak, they can teleport with shadow image, they gain the major armor buffs from any shadow skills use, they have an ultimate that saps health from 6 targets and a spammable aoe that saps health better than dk's inhale, they have another ultimate that provides 60% damage reduction, 2 % based burst heals that provide a decent amount, they have a hard cc that hits 3 targets doesn't break on damage then provides soft cc and a damage debuff. Want more?

Did you seriously just clump all of the Night Blade healer/tank and dps abilities into one and asked if we wanted more like all of that is really viable for one person to use? Lmao

You do nothing but poke people with a stick to get them going. I thought you said you were gonna leave the thread? haha

Eh, I was. Probably should now, not many bee hives to kick around. I just find it interesting how many skills NB's seemingly overlook when they come up with their arguments. You said how I mentioned skills that tanks/healers/dpsers use and you mentioned if I expect them to all be used by one person. No, I don't, but saying NB's are innately 'squishy' is flat out wrong, aside from dk's who have a spell resist passive all classes depend on their build to be durable, and if some NB's want to throw out durability, pitch everything on cloak, and then say the class needs cloak and is doomed without it, that's on them for building their character that way. Even the DK's of old with scales always up at least used more than that one skill to dominate the meta.

More importantly i think its a Room issue. There just isnt room to be viable and stack all these Escapes/Survival skills. DPS is the only role that can do so but Magicka NB dps is sub par at best so there isnt much to fear from them. If they are a healer then you def dont have anything to worry about. Stam DPS just cant use cloak in that fashion and tanks have tank moves all over their bars. We dont expect tanks to use cloak because it drops agro nor do they have enough magicka to sustain cloak. Not even teleport morph because they use the dual shades more often then naught for the extra maim for tanking.

Its just not as clear cut as everyone wants it to be which is ZOS's fault no one elses. Most of these things you mention require morphs to go in one direction which is what i was talking about. Cloak is fairly universal Minus the costs for tank/stam dps. Much like ward is for sorcs. or BOL is for templars. etc. Its all gonna be mash potatoes soon anyways but the last thing you want is pushing a class in a single or 2 directions in a game where tons of builds should be the thing. Skills that work with all builds is what you want.

I can tell you one thing. I have a lvl 32 Magicka NB Healer ive been messing around since the threads popped up to check out skills etc. I have them all unlocked atm and i can personally tell you i have no room at all as a healer for escapes and still be viable vs other classes. The best i can do is 1 slot on my 2nd bar which is cloak. Its really the only escape tool the healer has. The rest is filled with Healing ward/Health funnel/Ill healing/Rapid regen/Sap Essence/Path ETC. There just isnt room. This is true for all builds but thats why you see cloak more often. I noticed it serves its function on any of the builds. The other such abilities only go in the direction of a specific build. Hell I dont even have room for inner light >.>

Very different from my templar healer which is plenty of room to put abilities on his bar and can use such skills for escapes etc like snares and purge and what not. Also seems like they already nerfing cloak as Manuvers does not work in cloak since day before yesterday.Which is fine since only really used to move around in pvp or questing since it drops in combat. Didnt have enough time to see what other abilities dont work under cloak now. Which is also fine. Casting abilities should drop you out of cloak anyways. Strikes still works though.

Ive used other abilities like fear etc to find solutions but honestly they all kinda .... just suck lol. Fear works once which is too short a duration to do much assuming its not broken. Good for bursting dps i suppose. cant recast it again on someone for a while though so its kinda useless. The only time ive used cloak was to get archers off me while i was healing the group. PVP when someone was coming at me id cloak as they were coming at me and run to the nearest person in that one cloak and continue healing. Teleport shade is ok but also noticed people know how it works and were range attacking me standing on my shade. So that was really useless.

Sadly yes even shade has a counter. Stand on it lmao. and it stands out like a sore thumb. You know its the teleport shade as soon as you see it.

Saying that vs my templar healer who can just standing in purify ritual and heal through a bunch of damage where my NB healer cannot. I can say cloak would be pretty important to a Magicka NB. I did switch to DPS and tank and ran into similiar issues. I think this is all born out of the fact no one knows really what build you are in middle of combat and i dont just see cloak giving you some insane advantage over the other classes in pvp. Simply not dieing. But then again that goes for my templar just the same. I dont have a escape mechanic but i can just as well boost my healing done by +50% healing and negate the pvp debuff. You cant do that with other healers yet no one has a problem with that I guess.

The only time I saw cloak (abuse?) was the hit and run build. Which is cloak/blur/upper/upper/blur/cloak repeat. That needs to be fixed for sure. But i dont see that being a cloak issue and was easly fixed using radiant light since it reduced the damage from the pop out and as long as you cant use abilities under cloak that one would be fixed pretty easly as they dont have enough magicka to sustain that for more then a few runs.

CP5 wrote: »

You bring up a good point, in this game there is very little room to have a large number of skills and that is probably the biggest reason skills can be so unbalanced. Just thinking back to when every DK was using scales, one skill they only needed on one bar that completely negated so many other abilities, and the counter? Go in melee range with the DK, and mind the banner. To me that's the key thing that's broken in the game, not that skills are balanced between each other, but that some skills demand a lot of your opponent to even work around. Flare is a key example of this, it is so niche and doesn't even fill that role that well.

@ZOS

I Agree. Most other games never had this issue because they were mostly PC which allowed for ALL abilities to be put on a bar. EQ/WOW/AO are just to name a few you would literally have 20-40 abilities you could access so you always had access to counters when you ran into them in pvp. Since GW/GW2 made that switch to only a few abilities its been rough going in that department and now ESO. I was hoping for something like FF14 while limiting your amount of abilities you still had access to 16 abilities on the fly. And you could switch the bar to another 18 etc. 10 just isnt enough imho in a pvp scenario unless the abilities you had did multiable things. Morphs was a good idea for this but i think the morph system fell kind of flat. 2 morphs isnt enough imho they could have added several like 5 or so so you atleast had a choice.

That being said if GW/GW2 can do it i see no problem it cannot be done here since they are the closest to ESO with their pvp style and combat style. This is really up to ZOS to figure out and not us though. While what they have does work currently it really does need some fine tuning. Maybe over time.

Looking back on the history of those games its doable for sure. Something i want to see myself is more morphs with intelligence behind them. This will open up some windows for players while still falling in line with what ZOS is aiming for and also add some flavor. I Understand this will need more balancing but its better to deal with then just blanket changes over all builds for a class which is never good. What works for one build does not for others thats for sure Cloak to be a sure point of this. They also didnt go with the "stance" option which helps with balance as well. Something as simple as a passive stance buff that lowers damage done by 20% but gives 20% more mitigation or adding healing effect to light/heavy attacks or dots to them or something. Anything. Its much easier to handle that way you can tweak specific builds and not hit everything. You can make it so you can only take 1 stance. I Understand this would shift balance from say a healer switching to a dps bar and just DPSing but the alternative is blanket changes apparently or adding a stance to your main hand weapon and offhand weapon seems a viable change to me and adding like +20% damage but -20% on barriers etc to keep DPS sorcs from shield stacking instead of a armor set? (rolls eyes) or whatever! I understand that is just theorycrafting but its also been done before and worked just as well.

Things like that generally push people in a healthy direction. Most people understand if a stance drops their shields by 20% they wont use shields really or have shields as powerful or even more so then a healer because they are stacking spell power as a dps while healers are stacking recovery etc or even the Dual swords/Resto staff debate of Resto staff being weaker for healing then dual blades. Hell even attaching it to a specific weapon works to like +20% mitigation with sword and board. +20% healing with resto staff +20% dps with destro staff and skip the whole stance thing. CPs doing it slightly but its meh at best currently.

Kind of makes me think about NB healer. The more siphon abilities you put on your bar the more you heal. I dont think it needs to be that complex since that generally limits your ability to make builds. I can tell you stacking all siphon abilities on a bar gets you no where in the healing world lol so it makes that passive redundant since some of those abilities are CCs which a healer doesnt have room for.

Long story short. Craps a mess man.....

CP5 wrote: »

Agreed, ZOS drew themselves into a corner with their intended design and as people probably suspected it was a significant challenge. A word on the stance idea as well, would love to see something in game that was a passive that had tradeoffs, a meaningful choice. The passives in game now are all designed to only help and the champion system is only buffs, we need some drawbacks here and there, character defining strengths and flaws. Make things more interesting.

The game needs a proper talent system. Class passives could have served this purpose. Champion System could have served this purpose. But instead they let you unlock everything eventually. Dumb design.

"You see all these Nightblades in The OC IC because most people are too lazy to modify their play style in the slightest in order to effectively counter Nightblades (or anyone else). "

^--Incorrect. You see Nightblades in IC because of this:

1. Attack player from stealth.
2. Start to lose fight.
3. Run to closest mobs pull agro.
4. Cloak and lose agro.
5. Watch mobs attack enemy player.
6. Re-engage when enemy player is vulnerable fighting from mobs.
7. Profit.

YAAAAAAWN.


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Wow is it that time of the day again? Another nerf cloak thread. Sighs... This dk is eagerly awaiting to welcome nbs to the "we been gutted" club. You may bring a +1. Templar friends are fine but absolutely no sorcs please.

From the patch notes for this recent patch. It talks about damaging cloaked players, but this also ties into pulling them out of cloak.

TheNephilimCrow wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

Class cloak counters
DK-use volitial armor ( provides aoe )
Templar-use solar barrage, spears, biting jabs
Sorcs- lightning flood, impulse
Night blade- sap essence

Don't want to use them because they cost magicka steel tornado

Still don't like your options spend some gold and buy some detect pots ( if you don't have the gold quest for an hour )

I've played every class and yes you can counter a NBs cloak with ALL of them

I'm currently compiling tests and a list of moves that can counter cloak. It will prove that people need to L2P when talking about nerfing cloak. But you are completely right regarding these skills.

There is current patch notes about abilities added that do knock cloak that didnt. Now dont get me wrong these did not really work before but should now which should quell most of those anger issues from it. Pretty much ANY ability that does non targeted damage will break it now. I dont think they missed anything. While there is still on going issues with the damage done post break they are working on it.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

juan0316 wrote: »

Oh look yet another nerf cloack topic, l2p

You're the one that's gonna have to actually l2p when your iwin button is nerfed

its not an i win button its im going invisible you have to stop pressing wb and find me button.

More usually it's the "I'm going invisible before I hit you with WB again" button.

The problem is that NBs here are saying that they need Cloak to escape, whereas the experience of other classes is that they use it to disengage before re-engaging. At the same time conveniently dropping any Dots that might have been applied.

It does amuse me to see people say they are playing an "assassin" class... with a 6 foot sword! Maybe if anyone wants to attack from stealth they should only be allowed to use a dagger

I understand Wrecking Blow is a spammable move now and practically 75% of the PvP community uses it. Not just Nightblades and if your issue is people using WB in rapid fire than you should argue that it needs to have a cast time that isn't avoided by rapid presses. Secondly, it doesn't drop "any Dots that might have been applied". It drops one DoT when going into cloak. It's not some magic eraser that removes all DoTs. Would like you to read the summary of the ability before posting something like that, please.

This is directly from EsoHead about the skill.
So if the "typical" NB, as you say, are popping into cloak just to come out of it again and spam you with WB, then those same DoTs can be reapplied to them.

Most people call this a reset button, too, but what they don't understand, while the Nightblade is doing the little regen that he is, you can spend time doing this, too, because EVERY other class has wonderful self heals. It's the very reason why they gave Nightblades a cloak instead of a self heal. It's suppose to be a defensive action. The skill is working as intended.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

juan0316 wrote: »

Oh look yet another nerf cloack topic, l2p

You're the one that's gonna have to actually l2p when your iwin button is nerfed

its not an i win button its im going invisible you have to stop pressing wb and find me button.

More usually it's the "I'm going invisible before I hit you with WB again" button.

The problem is that NBs here are saying that they need Cloak to escape, whereas the experience of other classes is that they use it to disengage before re-engaging. At the same time conveniently dropping any Dots that might have been applied.

It does amuse me to see people say they are playing an "assassin" class... with a 6 foot sword! Maybe if anyone wants to attack from stealth they should only be allowed to use a dagger

This is the WB/blur hit and run build. While it only works for a few passes it can seem kind of abusive of the build but -shrug- its just tactics really. It can be countered and can honestly tell you radiant light will shut this build down for you because the pop out of stealth damage is reduced by 50%. Currently the only build that seems like its abusive to cloak atm.

Think i died twice to this on my templar. While it was nuts, I knew exactly what was going on. It LOOKED abusive to cloak. But I also understood he was just using cloak as intended ( short bursts of just 1-2 seconds) to get the pop out of stealth bonus damage. Because he was using blur with speed he was moving around very quickly. I see nothing wrong with it. Thats it intended use and its all very very short timers. after 3-4 passes he would run away my guess b/c he was out of juice. Came back a few times to do it again. Finally got me once when i was fighting someone else.

That being said i had radiant on my bar next time and he was literally doing no damage to me. He would do 4 passes and only get me down to 55% without much healing and would run away. OFC me being a healer i had no offence for him but he left me alone after that. -Dusts Hands- Problem solved. All other uses for cloak that ive seen are just them running away and i see no reason to QQ about that because who cares. I didnt die so what lol. Let the rats run away fine with me. As far as IC goes you want those little critters to come at you. if and when you DO snag one they have tons of shards on them from running away and collecting. I dont see them as a threat when they come at my templar. I see them as a little cash bag running around swatting at me. That goes for anyone around me because Radiant is a AOE Buff. Honestly any healer in pvp that isnt using it is kinda derp to me. Reducing damage is just as important as healing it. Also most gankers go right for the healer anyways.