I will be sincerely disappointed in ZoS's common sense if they nerf Cloak.

Digerati · October 2015

You know... I've played a nightblade and it's a lot of fun dipping out on people and being stealth master. that shouldn't be removed.

Perhaps the nerf could also be a buff... Buff the escapism of the ability/make it more reliable/make cloaking more effective at disengaging but also make it prevent reengagement... as in, it could near-infallibly get you out of combat but, perhaps, you take 200% damage for 1 minute, or you deal 10% of your normal damage.

I'm sure there are other ways of achieving the same goal of making cloak more effective at creating an escape while forcing a commitment to the escape. There are undoubtedly other ideas about fixing cloak.

But we really can't pretend it doesn't need fixing.

ToRelax · October 2015

Digerati wrote: »

You know... I've played a nightblade and it's a lot of fun dipping out on people and being stealth master. that shouldn't be removed.

Perhaps the nerf could also be a buff... Buff the escapism of the ability/make it more reliable/make cloaking more effective at disengaging but also make it prevent reengagement... as in, it could near-infallibly get you out of combat but, perhaps, you take 200% damage for 1 minute, or you deal 10% of your normal damage.

I'm sure there are other ways of achieving the same goal of making cloak more effective at creating an escape while forcing a commitment to the escape. There are undoubtedly other ideas about fixing cloak.

But we really can't pretend it doesn't need fixing.

What? That would make it useless as a dodge, purge or positioning tool. And I would think most people want the NB to fight, not disengage...

JDar · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Heathenpride wrote: »

I love how everyone is whining about the ability of rogues/assassins to use stealth, which is part of their core structure as a class, but no one is mentioning that it's odd seeing a 5 foot tall elf strolling around Tramriel with a two handed weapon bigger than she is and ripping new arses for fighter class characters...

NBs should be using light weapons, daggers preferably, whilst sorcs should be using staves and daggers and the fighter classes need to be rocking the heavy weaponry.

NBs should be restricted to medium armour, sorcs light and fighters heavy.

Whatever happened to that style?

I REFUSE to use two handed or staves, i keep my daggers and that's how it should be so don't nerf cloak, nerf the ability for all classes to use all weapons because we all know how messed up it's become, odd that no one mentions it...

Are you for real? >_>

I don't understand why you felt the need to make such a rude dismissive comment with no substance. There is a lot of validity to what this person is saying. From a game design standpoint, it doesn't make sense for 2 handed weapons to be so good in the hands of a stealth class. From a lore standpoint it's out of place as well. Read the description for nightblades from Oblivion:

Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the game to make sense but I guess that ship has sailed.

However I don't agree with nightblades being stuck with medium armor, or even any class being basically forced to use a particular armor class. Nightblades could have been a really unique cool dark mage class but the way ZoS has designed the game they are more of a ninja/ranger class.

ToRelax · October 2015

JDar wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Heathenpride wrote: »

I love how everyone is whining about the ability of rogues/assassins to use stealth, which is part of their core structure as a class, but no one is mentioning that it's odd seeing a 5 foot tall elf strolling around Tramriel with a two handed weapon bigger than she is and ripping new arses for fighter class characters...

NBs should be using light weapons, daggers preferably, whilst sorcs should be using staves and daggers and the fighter classes need to be rocking the heavy weaponry.

NBs should be restricted to medium armour, sorcs light and fighters heavy.

Whatever happened to that style?

I REFUSE to use two handed or staves, i keep my daggers and that's how it should be so don't nerf cloak, nerf the ability for all classes to use all weapons because we all know how messed up it's become, odd that no one mentions it...

Are you for real? >_>

I don't understand why you felt the need to make such a rude dismissive comment with no substance. There is a lot of validity to what this person is saying. From a game design standpoint, it doesn't make sense for 2 handed weapons to be so good in the hands of a stealth class. From a lore standpoint it's out of place as well. Read the description for nightblades from Oblivion:

Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the game to make sense but I guess that ship has sailed.

However I don't agree with nightblades being stuck with medium armor, or even any class being basically forced to use a particular armor class. Nightblades could have been a really unique cool dark mage class but the way ZoS has designed the game they are more of a ninja/ranger class.

In TES single player games everything works. You could literally go naked and only use a basic healing spell to "win" the game.
I am playing my new NB as a health leeching mage, it works pretty well, still. The system in this game allows for a lot of different builds, with NB probably being the most versatile class right now. I don't see any point in taking that away and it's one of the core design decisions since the game exists.

Chori · October 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

I am so sick of hearing that. Now that all the other nerfs have been done now nb's and some sorcs don't want any more nerfs now that they are OP.

I see what you did there.

OP? ZoS nerfed other classes and thats why now the nightblade to you, is OP. Honestly, nobody likes nerfs or possible nerfs and this game is turning into the kind of game where if I get killed I will complain till that mofo is nerfed to oblivion. That makes the game not fun to even consider staying at.

Nerfs done to for example bolt scape from sorcs, where probably based on the fact that if you didn't have a gap closer there was no way to counter it if the sorcerer was smart enough. I still don't agree to nerfing bolt without buffing something else that is class related.

If you think you are sick of people mentioning counters/asking for buffs to other areas, imagine how many other sick people will come to this forum crying over something else once this supposed nerf that we don't know what will be, it's done. That is not balance, that is repeating a vicious circle of claims that will lead to nerfs to every single move you know in this game. So instead of nerfing a key ability, probably the only key ability of the class, buff the many counters around it or at least some of them. Let's buff things that people stopped using because they are not giving players much better results right? Grab the bigger picture, nerfing a class ability when there are other piles of abilities (not class ones) that can be buffed to help doing what they already do which is counter cloak would be in my honest opinion a smart move not only to decrease the amount of complaints but also to increase build diversity.

So yes, now you see what I did there. I looked for a solution to create diversity and take down some claims, help the cloak case, and still mantain a class's identity by not nerfing the key skill itself.

Peace

Chori · October 2015

Digerati wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Digerati wrote: »

anyone saying NBs cloaking is not stupid does not play in IC... 2 NBs can shut down an entire side with just being slippery and opportunistic.

Seriously, when 10+ guys can't drop 2 NBs, a nerf is needed.

This thread would not have been created if some NB didn't realize how big of an advantage they've got.
.

...

Really... people should stop asking for nerfs and start asking for buffs in other areas to increase build diversity and/or buff counters.

OK sure. Add a morph to every class that prevents stealth for X amount of time... Give us a hard counter to cloak... Make caltrops reveal all? Increase radius of magelight?

Let's stay on topic and not around things you know they will not be done because they will not add an anti stealth to every single possible move.
There are several things that could be done, like increasing range and duration or detection pots, increase the range of magelight which tbh it would not be a bad change. Buff other counter abilities so people feel that they are worth carrying over in their skill bars whether they are AOE or not. Caltrops don't need a buff, they do reveal any stealth unit if the oponent is standing on them and they have a huge range for you to stand in the middle of them.

There is people in veteran that I've seen not knowing how to even break free from a stun...

Cathexis · October 2015

Digerati wrote: »

You know... I've played a nightblade and it's a lot of fun dipping out on people and being stealth master. that shouldn't be removed.

Perhaps the nerf could also be a buff... Buff the escapism of the ability/make it more reliable/make cloaking more effective at disengaging but also make it prevent reengagement... as in, it could near-infallibly get you out of combat but, perhaps, you take 200% damage for 1 minute, or you deal 10% of your normal damage.

I'm sure there are other ways of achieving the same goal of making cloak more effective at creating an escape while forcing a commitment to the escape. There are undoubtedly other ideas about fixing cloak.

But we really can't pretend it doesn't need fixing.

These are actually good suggestions. Although one minute is a long time. If cloak is really just about escape as most NBS are claiming, then fundamentally running away shouldn't make you stronger at the same time.

AAN2 · October 2015

DANGIT ZOS STOP NERFIN' STUFF!
My god, here in a few months this game will basically be throwing cotton balls disguised as spells/arrows at each other and smacking each other with styrofoam.

1v1s will last hours, days even.

How 'bout instead of nerfing things, you increase the power of their counters? That way gameplay doesn't slow down and you still get the desired balancing effect. Or, you can try the Nerf, Buff, Nerf, Buff approach to keep power creep from happening.

KenaPKK · October 2015

olsborg wrote: »

As a stamina nightblade, nerfing cloak as it is now would be an extremely bad move on zos' part.

I can cast it maybe 3 times during a short fight...and atleast 1 of those times it will fail and I will get pulled out of it.

Magicka nbs however can spam this endlessly...so if they do decide to change cloak somehow they should be real careful as to not limit the already limited usefulness for a stamina nightblade.

This just reinforces my point. Cloak isn't the issue here. Its usefulness is limited for both magicka and stamina. The nightblades who are causing problems in PvP are all stamina -- it's their damage. Nerfing cloak does not address that at all.

Jbugz97 · October 2015

just revert the detection potion to what it was before make it last longer... 35 sec

pls zos dont nerf cloak

KenaPKK · October 2015

Jbugz97 wrote: »

just revert the detection potion to what it was before make it last longer... 35 sec

pls zos dont nerf cloak

Ugh... That potion was and kind of still is a one button hard counter to the most relied-upon class mechanic in the game by its respective class. NO.

GreenSoup2HoT · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

^ RML is a great counter.. It reveals cloaked units nearby, and it halves all damage incoming from stealthed enemies for you AND nearby allies.

That's half damage from any Clouding Swarmers too. It's quite strong.

RML dmg reduction and stun protection is only working against sneak attacks and is not working against attacks from invisibility granted by cloak AT ALL.

But thanks for you comment.

If this is true, I was not aware. That is not working as intended based on my understanding... Regardless, that's a problem to fix with Radiant, not Cloak.

It is working as intended that way. RML gives you protection against sneak attacks. Cloaked attacks for NBs have nothing to do with that (they don´t get their dmg multiplied either - they just stun).

Why is it when i cloak my weapon damage goes up then, even while in combat?

ToRelax · October 2015

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

^ RML is a great counter.. It reveals cloaked units nearby, and it halves all damage incoming from stealthed enemies for you AND nearby allies.

That's half damage from any Clouding Swarmers too. It's quite strong.

RML dmg reduction and stun protection is only working against sneak attacks and is not working against attacks from invisibility granted by cloak AT ALL.

But thanks for you comment.

If this is true, I was not aware. That is not working as intended based on my understanding... Regardless, that's a problem to fix with Radiant, not Cloak.

It is working as intended that way. RML gives you protection against sneak attacks. Cloaked attacks for NBs have nothing to do with that (they don´t get their dmg multiplied either - they just stun).

Why is it when i cloak my weapon damage goes up then, even while in combat?

That's a NB passive and works with all kinds of invisibility. Has nothing to do with general sneak attacks.

IxskullzxI · October 2015

Make it so vigor pulls you out of stealth and I'd be happy.

Lokey0024 · October 2015

Make abilities cast in stealth/invis break stealth/invisibility. Exceptions could be made, especially with a class ability for the sneaky class, but rally/vigor....yea, no.

jpalm1995 · October 2015

No regen in cloak seems fair to me

Darnathian · October 2015

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Make abilities cast in stealth/invis break stealth/invisibility. Exceptions could be made, especially with a class ability for the sneaky class, but rally/vigor....yea, no.

I like this.

JDar · October 2015

olsborg wrote: »

As a stamina nightblade, nerfing cloak as it is now would be an extremely bad move on zos' part.

I can cast it maybe 3 times during a short fight...and atleast 1 of those times it will fail and I will get pulled out of it.

Magicka nbs however can spam this endlessly...so if they do decide to change cloak somehow they should be real careful as to not limit the already limited usefulness for a stamina nightblade.

Cathexis wrote: »

Digerati wrote: »

You know... I've played a nightblade and it's a lot of fun dipping out on people and being stealth master. that shouldn't be removed.

Perhaps the nerf could also be a buff... Buff the escapism of the ability/make it more reliable/make cloaking more effective at disengaging but also make it prevent reengagement... as in, it could near-infallibly get you out of combat but, perhaps, you take 200% damage for 1 minute, or you deal 10% of your normal damage.

I'm sure there are other ways of achieving the same goal of making cloak more effective at creating an escape while forcing a commitment to the escape. There are undoubtedly other ideas about fixing cloak.

But we really can't pretend it doesn't need fixing.

These are actually good suggestions. Although one minute is a long time. If cloak is really just about escape as most NBS are claiming, then fundamentally running away shouldn't make you stronger at the same time.

Well this is the problem, cloak isn't just escape. It raises spell damage and resistance levels to be comparable with medium armor stamina players. But you don't understand the class and have probably never played it, so this is why you have an obsession with seeing it nerfed.

JDar · October 2015

jpalm1995 wrote: »

No regen in cloak seems fair to me

No. That is a brutal nerf. Try again.

JDar · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Heathenpride wrote: »

I love how everyone is whining about the ability of rogues/assassins to use stealth, which is part of their core structure as a class, but no one is mentioning that it's odd seeing a 5 foot tall elf strolling around Tramriel with a two handed weapon bigger than she is and ripping new arses for fighter class characters...

NBs should be using light weapons, daggers preferably, whilst sorcs should be using staves and daggers and the fighter classes need to be rocking the heavy weaponry.

NBs should be restricted to medium armour, sorcs light and fighters heavy.

Whatever happened to that style?

I REFUSE to use two handed or staves, i keep my daggers and that's how it should be so don't nerf cloak, nerf the ability for all classes to use all weapons because we all know how messed up it's become, odd that no one mentions it...

Are you for real? >_>

I don't understand why you felt the need to make such a rude dismissive comment with no substance. There is a lot of validity to what this person is saying. From a game design standpoint, it doesn't make sense for 2 handed weapons to be so good in the hands of a stealth class. From a lore standpoint it's out of place as well. Read the description for nightblades from Oblivion:

Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the game to make sense but I guess that ship has sailed.

However I don't agree with nightblades being stuck with medium armor, or even any class being basically forced to use a particular armor class. Nightblades could have been a really unique cool dark mage class but the way ZoS has designed the game they are more of a ninja/ranger class.

In TES single player games everything works. You could literally go naked and only use a basic healing spell to "win" the game.
I am playing my new NB as a health leeching mage, it works pretty well, still. The system in this game allows for a lot of different builds, with NB probably being the most versatile class right now. I don't see any point in taking that away and it's one of the core design decisions since the game exists.

Frankly the game mechanics in the TES games are stupid too, and the only reason it didn't bother me was that it was single player. Stealth archers were always the way to go and magic was a waste of time.

ToRelax · October 2015

JDar wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Heathenpride wrote: »

I love how everyone is whining about the ability of rogues/assassins to use stealth, which is part of their core structure as a class, but no one is mentioning that it's odd seeing a 5 foot tall elf strolling around Tramriel with a two handed weapon bigger than she is and ripping new arses for fighter class characters...

NBs should be using light weapons, daggers preferably, whilst sorcs should be using staves and daggers and the fighter classes need to be rocking the heavy weaponry.

NBs should be restricted to medium armour, sorcs light and fighters heavy.

Whatever happened to that style?

I REFUSE to use two handed or staves, i keep my daggers and that's how it should be so don't nerf cloak, nerf the ability for all classes to use all weapons because we all know how messed up it's become, odd that no one mentions it...

Are you for real? >_>

I don't understand why you felt the need to make such a rude dismissive comment with no substance. There is a lot of validity to what this person is saying. From a game design standpoint, it doesn't make sense for 2 handed weapons to be so good in the hands of a stealth class. From a lore standpoint it's out of place as well. Read the description for nightblades from Oblivion:

Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the game to make sense but I guess that ship has sailed.

However I don't agree with nightblades being stuck with medium armor, or even any class being basically forced to use a particular armor class. Nightblades could have been a really unique cool dark mage class but the way ZoS has designed the game they are more of a ninja/ranger class.

In TES single player games everything works. You could literally go naked and only use a basic healing spell to "win" the game.
I am playing my new NB as a health leeching mage, it works pretty well, still. The system in this game allows for a lot of different builds, with NB probably being the most versatile class right now. I don't see any point in taking that away and it's one of the core design decisions since the game exists.

Frankly the game mechanics in the TES games are stupid too, and the only reason it didn't bother me was that it was single player. Stealth archers were always the way to go and magic was a waste of time.

Are you serious? Spellcrafting and Alchemy were stupidly "OP" compared to anything else.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Heathenpride wrote: »

I love how everyone is whining about the ability of rogues/assassins to use stealth, which is part of their core structure as a class, but no one is mentioning that it's odd seeing a 5 foot tall elf strolling around Tramriel with a two handed weapon bigger than she is and ripping new arses for fighter class characters...

NBs should be using light weapons, daggers preferably, whilst sorcs should be using staves and daggers and the fighter classes need to be rocking the heavy weaponry.

NBs should be restricted to medium armour, sorcs light and fighters heavy.

Whatever happened to that style?

I REFUSE to use two handed or staves, i keep my daggers and that's how it should be so don't nerf cloak, nerf the ability for all classes to use all weapons because we all know how messed up it's become, odd that no one mentions it...

Are you for real? >_>

I don't understand why you felt the need to make such a rude dismissive comment with no substance. There is a lot of validity to what this person is saying. From a game design standpoint, it doesn't make sense for 2 handed weapons to be so good in the hands of a stealth class. From a lore standpoint it's out of place as well. Read the description for nightblades from Oblivion:

Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the game to make sense but I guess that ship has sailed.

However I don't agree with nightblades being stuck with medium armor, or even any class being basically forced to use a particular armor class. Nightblades could have been a really unique cool dark mage class but the way ZoS has designed the game they are more of a ninja/ranger class.

In TES single player games everything works. You could literally go naked and only use a basic healing spell to "win" the game.
I am playing my new NB as a health leeching mage, it works pretty well, still. The system in this game allows for a lot of different builds, with NB probably being the most versatile class right now. I don't see any point in taking that away and it's one of the core design decisions since the game exists.

Frankly the game mechanics in the TES games are stupid too, and the only reason it didn't bother me was that it was single player. Stealth archers were always the way to go and magic was a waste of time.

Are you serious? Spellcrafting and Alchemy were stupidly "OP" compared to anything else.

Indeed, especially in Morrowind. Remember those pots stacking, giving you the ability to 2shot Vivec with just a punch ? Or finishing the game in less than 10 minutes like this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFiwAfKiTio . No sthealthy archers, "sorcerers"

Lava_Croft · October 2015

It's hard to put to words how incredibly OP anything related to Magic in Morrowind is.

It's also hard to put to words how incredibly stupid it is to even bring one of the singleplayer TES games into this discussion, since each and every one of them is a showcase of terrible gameplay balancing.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · October 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

It's hard to put to words how incredibly OP anything related to Magic in Morrowind is.

It's also hard to put to words how incredibly stupid it is to even bring one of the singleplayer TES games into this discussion, since each and every one of them is a showcase of terrible gameplay balancing.

That was just a off-topic dude.

terrasight · October 2015

It's funny...I can only read about the "Nerf Cloak!" (or nerf anything else) things in the eng forums... in the de forums no one cares about so much...

CP5 · October 2015

terrasight wrote: »

It's funny...I can only read about the "Nerf Cloak!" (or nerf anything else) things in the eng forums... in the de forums no one cares about so much...

Since I don't usually jump over to those forums, what's it like over there?

ToRelax · October 2015

CP5 wrote: »

terrasight wrote: »

It's funny...I can only read about the "Nerf Cloak!" (or nerf anything else) things in the eng forums... in the de forums no one cares about so much...

Since I don't usually jump over to those forums, what's it like over there?

Dead. For a year now. And if someone opens a thread there it's usually some kind of whine or nerfthread.

Digerati · October 2015

I've played a bit as a nightblade and it's a fun class, it's very compelling... Not exactly my style of gameplay.

I don't want to see cloak go away. I love that everyone gets stealth and there's a clear master of stealth class, rather than only one class getting to stealth. Honestly that's one of the most genius implementations ever.

There is a problem, however, when a pair of (highly skilled) nightblades can harass an entire alliance into submission in IC. I freely admit that I'm not able to pull off this sort of maneuvering. I am, however, fairly awesome at playing my class (templar) and I'm well versed in all of my supposed stealther-counters.

What if backlash had a morph that prevented stealth? The animation already looks like it should prevent stealth.

Lava_Croft · October 2015

If a pair of NB's can harass an entire Alliance, the problem is not the pair of NB's.

lathbury · October 2015

gilbegger wrote: »

I may be wrong here but I dont think anyone cares you can use an ability to your advantage. Every build has them.

Its the "spamming' of said abilities that cause problems.

Dodge roll / block/ bolt escape... and soon to be adjusted cloak.

Its going to be adjusted. And if you look at the history of the above mentioned abilities it will have to do with an increasing cost to cast cloak if casted consecutively (sorry my spelling is horrible)...or not regenerating magika while in cloak.

bolt escape you say funny how sorcs can still use it to cross entire ic districts. also there was no counter play to the other things you mentioned perma rollers perma blockers and streaking sorcs. unless you count fear as the counter play to perma blocking but thats another skill people want nerfed. also on the subject of bolt escape id agree for cloak deserving the same treatment if it stunned lasted long enough on 1 cast to get out of range did damage and was unaffected by potions,aoes, mark, revealing flare, mage light etc.