kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

The discrepancy between impluse and steel tornado is too great. The area area of effect for impluse is 113.097 m^2. Compare this to the area of effect for steel tornado being 490.874 m^2. The fact that the stamina area of effect is well over four times the area of the magicka area of effect is highly imbalanced.

It's not just the area.

It benefits from:
1. Better stamina wpn dmg stacking (med armor +12% and various set bonuses.)
2. Execute passive in DW skill line
3. Increased dmg to rooted or stunned enemies.

Pre 1.7 I was seeing 10k crits on a regular basis (yes, sharpened bug). Now it's less... But not too much less because stats are so high.

First off I agree something needs to be about Steel Tornado groups. However I miss your points.
1. Weapon Damage stack? You mean doing more damage same way Magicka lets you Stack Spell Penetration. Light Armor passive, CP perk, Weapon passive from Destro the line with Impulse and a weapon trait. Ignoring so much of my spell resistance increases your attacking damage. Same stacking same result different forms.

2.This is valid, I have made the same point.

3. This point would make sense IF the power applied any of those which it doesn't and if they are just spamming Steel Tornado and nothing else but buffs which it what is happening then they are not CCing you.

Again I agree Steel Tornado or more so the mind set that it gives players is the same as Impulse the power and the mind set need to be fixed or we will be right back here again with the next AoE train power.

1. You misunderstood. I meant to imply that stamina itemization is better for stacking weapon damage. Medium armor 5pc bonus is +12% weapon damage, which is immense. Also, DW has ~300 more weapon damage that a destro staff.
2. Glad you understand.
3. What? Go read the Steel Tornado tooltip and associate DW passives. Obviously you don't just spam Steel Tornado. You get your buddies to snare, root, stun, or otherwise damage the enemies. Then you spam Steel Tornado. The potential damage bonuses are outrageous. Impulse is garbage in comparison.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

All very true but at a few points. For one can you not buff your armor within the same tree? If you get the same amount of base armor and spell resistance for an armor piece then buffing your resistance to magic or elemental damage by 25% or your armor by 25% will have the same increase. The question here is if Stamiba builds and Tanks can take this perk to shield them better from magic why can't casters do the same?

Not sure what you're you're trying to say here. You are countering your own argument. Magic damage is mitigated better by everyone. Hence why having stamina DDs in a train makes it more efficient since physical damage is mitigated a lot less. Also you are making some wrong assumptions about how these passives work, I would advise you to either read up a bit or test them if you are interested

The rest of your point is that stamina should hit harder overall, again with some wrong assumptions about regen rates and resource pools, which can perhaps be debated.

But overall I can't justify the fact that you have a skill with 12m AoE and double execute bonus when combined with the weapon damage/physical mitigation situation we described.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion if I raised my armor by 25% it would mitigate the same amount of damage as if I buff my magic resistance by 25%.

If you have 1000 armor from a piece of armor buffing your armor or spell resistance by 25% would be increase of the same value no matter which one you buff. I find both to be equally weak and reduce the cost of blocking by 25% and the rest is for buffing healing.

Choosing not to buff against armor by 25% is not the fault of anyone. For my stamina build blocking a casters with 25% cost reduction to blocking is miles better then the the reduction to damage.

It is much easier to increase your spell resistance thru the champion system than it is to try an mitigate physical damage.

The is one single star for spell resist. Zero restrictions. For armor, I have to pick as specific type, which *only* effects that type (i.e. if you wear 5 light and 2 heavy, the light armor passive only modify the 5 light) and you have to wear 5 pieces of it to even get the bonus in the first place.

Also there is a star that reduces elemental damage and magic. There is no star that reduces physical damage.

Whoever devised the champion system was a fan of stamina builds.

Aside from the champion system, because harness magicka is a great skill because it scales of magicka. Bone shield is a meh skill because it scales off health.

The game offers more tools to deal with magic threats than physical ones.

Joy_Division wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

All very true but at a few points. For one can you not buff your armor within the same tree? If you get the same amount of base armor and spell resistance for an armor piece then buffing your resistance to magic or elemental damage by 25% or your armor by 25% will have the same increase. The question here is if Stamiba builds and Tanks can take this perk to shield them better from magic why can't casters do the same?

Not sure what you're you're trying to say here. You are countering your own argument. Magic damage is mitigated better by everyone. Hence why having stamina DDs in a train makes it more efficient since physical damage is mitigated a lot less. Also you are making some wrong assumptions about how these passives work, I would advise you to either read up a bit or test them if you are interested

The rest of your point is that stamina should hit harder overall, again with some wrong assumptions about regen rates and resource pools, which can perhaps be debated.

But overall I can't justify the fact that you have a skill with 12m AoE and double execute bonus when combined with the weapon damage/physical mitigation situation we described.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion if I raised my armor by 25% it would mitigate the same amount of damage as if I buff my magic resistance by 25%.

If you have 1000 armor from a piece of armor buffing your armor or spell resistance by 25% would be increase of the same value no matter which one you buff. I find both to be equally weak and reduce the cost of blocking by 25% and the rest is for buffing healing.

Choosing not to buff against armor by 25% is not the fault of anyone. For my stamina build blocking a casters with 25% cost reduction to blocking is miles better then the the reduction to damage.

It is much easier to increase your spell resistance thru the champion system than it is to try an mitigate physical damage.

The is one single star for spell resist. Zero restrictions. For armor, I have to pick as specific type, which *only* effects that type (i.e. if you wear 5 light and 2 heavy, the light armor passive only modify the 5 light) and you have to wear 5 pieces of it to even get the bonus in the first place.

Also there is a star that reduces elemental damage and magic. There is no star that reduces physical damage.

Whoever devised the champion system was a fan of stamina builds.

Aside from the champion system, because harness magicka is a great skill because it scales of magicka. Bone shield is a meh skill because it scales off health.

The game offers more tools to deal with magic threats than physical ones.

That would only make sense IF buff physical damage resistance was not an option but it is. All physical, poison, disease and bleed damage is reduced by including armor. To defend against magic you have to pick to stop Elemental Damage or Magic Damage. Magicka Dragon Knight, Templars, Sorcerers and Destro Staff users will hit you will loads of elemental damage but Crystal Fragments and all Nightblade powers are pure magic leaving you open to these players that don't use elemental magic.

Yes it only buffs one type of armor but you're wearing five pieces of that armor, the armor is different so to buff takes a different perk.

Stamina damage can be Physical (most is), Poison, disease or magic. Yes my attacks the draw off my stamina can be stopped with Harness Magic. You can't buff all stamina attacks with Mighty. But you want to buff all types of Armor with one Perk to defend against magic takes two perks. Most people wear 5a and 2b if you go 5a 1b and 1c then you are losing power and useful passives for 6% more resources

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

All very true but at a few points. For one can you not buff your armor within the same tree? If you get the same amount of base armor and spell resistance for an armor piece then buffing your resistance to magic or elemental damage by 25% or your armor by 25% will have the same increase. The question here is if Stamiba builds and Tanks can take this perk to shield them better from magic why can't casters do the same?

Not sure what you're you're trying to say here. You are countering your own argument. Magic damage is mitigated better by everyone. Hence why having stamina DDs in a train makes it more efficient since physical damage is mitigated a lot less. Also you are making some wrong assumptions about how these passives work, I would advise you to either read up a bit or test them if you are interested

The rest of your point is that stamina should hit harder overall, again with some wrong assumptions about regen rates and resource pools, which can perhaps be debated.

But overall I can't justify the fact that you have a skill with 12m AoE and double execute bonus when combined with the weapon damage/physical mitigation situation we described.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion if I raised my armor by 25% it would mitigate the same amount of damage as if I buff my magic resistance by 25%.

If you have 1000 armor from a piece of armor buffing your armor or spell resistance by 25% would be increase of the same value no matter which one you buff. I find both to be equally weak and reduce the cost of blocking by 25% and the rest is for buffing healing.

Choosing not to buff against armor by 25% is not the fault of anyone. For my stamina build blocking a casters with 25% cost reduction to blocking is miles better then the the reduction to damage.

You haven't studied that Champion System enough buddy.

Armor and Spell resistance are similar. The Champion system allows you to raise both equally via passives. Hardy and Elemental Defender passives allow you to reduce incoming spell damage by 25% before it even hits your spell resistance mitigation. It even applies on Wards for example.

I'll remove Battler Spirit from the equation so as not to confuse you. If I have a 10k crystal frag tooltip and I'm firing that a target that has 100 CPs into Hardy and is hard capped at spell resistance that Frag will be mitigated first by Hardy

10k * 0.75= 7.5k ... then again by spell res another 50% ....7.5k * 50% = 3.75k

On the other hand a 10k wrecking blow can only get mitigated by armor so it would be 10k * 50% = 5k against a target hard capped on armor. There is no way to mitigate that WB before it hits my armor resistance, like I can do against the frag.

Do you get it now?

I have not tested how the numbers work as a count of damage but I do know that my stamina was still getting rocked by magic when I was 100 points in the Elemental defense moving to block cost reduction helped far my then magic defense.

My Nightblade and Dragon Knight casters both wear a heavy Chest and Legs both with 100 points in the heavy armor buff both do great in PvP they don't have these problems. I know that most casters where a heavy chest for the biggest armor rating and with heavy or medium legs if you had to heavy you would see a world of difference.

And that's my core problem I know I'm not the only 5l 2h casters and I can take a lot of damage, heal and shield up with zero problems. True I don't hit as hard as my stamina builds but I can outlast them with ease fights where they would die my casters stay up longer and even win.

I'm not saying it's not hate to play a Mage but my experiences are not half as bad as I read on the forums. WB kills all of my builds if I don't play to my builds strengths. Crystal Fragments is a non threat magic Dragon Knight can hit scales, caster use Harness and all my stamina builds main or off-hand One Hand and Shield so I can send it right back.

I'm not saying your wrong but from my experiences my magic builds still win more then they lose.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

And that's my core problem I know I'm not the only 5l 2h casters and I can take a lot of damage, heal and shield up with zero problems. True I don't hit as hard as my stamina builds but I can outlast them with ease fights where they would die my casters stay up longer and even win.

This I'm afraid is very very subjective and based on your opinion.

I know many very capable stamina players who can outlast magicka builds and 1vX with relative ease. It's all on the handler.

Despite that deviation, that still doesn't detract from my argument that Steel Tornado is too strong as a PBAoE for the all the reasons already mentioned. Stamina builds don't need still tornado to be a 12m double execute to be competitive. They would still do fine with 8m range.

Where the hell did you quote that from? I can't find my post containing it and am wondering at the context or even the patch I quoted it in haha. My Sorc hits like a damn truck right now and would ace my NB easily.

Dear players!
Nothing will be done about Steel Tornado because, by doing so, ZOS would admit that stamina builds have gone crazy since exactly one year... They would never admit that! Otherwise, all further buffs after 1.3/1.4. would not make them look so well..

Second, Steel Tornado as a spammable skill for a melee based build makes zero sense in a typical MMORPG-enviroment. Not only does it look stupid to have 5+ players throw daggers around them, it is the combination of Steel Tornado + CP + the favorization of stamina-builds + it is an execute which makes this skill f...ng op.

Everyone knows it but, at the current state of ESO, nothing will be done to revert the decisions they made in summer/fall 2014 because the alternative would be a loss of face: to admit they did some errors by listening too much to "stamina-classes complaints in the forums". That is where it all started, long before the removal of caps, weapon damage was already easier to get on items (vr 12 box-pvp-set, as well as Morag Tong having no counterparts for magicka, Dreugh King Slayer set having no counterpart for magicka, etc. THIS WAS CLEAR). The 25%-plus champion skill was just a proof that they even did not realize, how strong stamina spec's already were. These is just one spicy detail, what went wrong..

So, they went on buffing and buffing and huffing and puffing.. hahaha (an old song about "three little pigs") The Germans would say: "now, you get the salad!"

ZOS :'(

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

And that's my core problem I know I'm not the only 5l 2h casters and I can take a lot of damage, heal and shield up with zero problems. True I don't hit as hard as my stamina builds but I can outlast them with ease fights where they would die my casters stay up longer and even win.

This I'm afraid is very very subjective and based on your opinion.

I know many very capable stamina players who can outlast magicka builds and 1vX with relative ease. It's all on the handler.

Despite that deviation, that still doesn't detract from my argument that Steel Tornado is too strong as a PBAoE for the all the reasons already mentioned. Stamina builds don't need still tornado to be a 12m double execute to be competitive. They would still do fine with 8m range.

Where the hell did you quote that from? I can't find my post containing it and am wondering at the context or even the patch I quoted it in haha. My Sorc hits like a damn truck right now and would ace my NB easily.

Something got really screwed with the tags XD

That's a quote from @kendellking_chaosb14_ESO from above, not from you!

EDIT: I though you play S&B on your NB? Put on a shield breaker set, slot defensive posture (in case your sorc decides to go into overload spam ) and reverberating bash for the heal debuff and just keep applying pressure with double anim cancel of la+surprise attack+bash. It would take a very good sorc to work his way out of that one. Not impossible mind you, but the odds are stacked very much against that sorc.

I do run One Hand and Shield a gap closer knock down and a healing debuff it's counter running Sorcerers and Templar. I do also run Defensive Stance for the reason and more mostly as an anti Sorcerers or Magicka Nightblade. But that Shield Break is just bad less the five piece is great vs casters.

The 2-4 piece bonus are not bad but I lose 8% crit, 1k stamina and about 150 weapon damage it's great for what it is the only way to counter shields outside of pure weapon damage glass canon builds with crazy high base damage as crit would be pointless vs a shield. But casters that don't shield 24/7 and all stamina builds the set does nothing.

I use it only if I fight near a friendly Zerg and can take risk but my solo game it's not even close to a setup I can run.

better change proxy det if youre gonna change steel tornado

I'm pretty sure Steel Tornado needs a buff tbh.... I hate having to wait for execute to get high numbers

MountainHound wrote: »

Maybe this is why I don't *** about it as I do what is done to me if it is OP? I mean, I stopped playing my Magika DK as it got nerfed, but instead of bitching about it on the forums I adapted.

AKA you rolled over and caved, instead of standing up for whats right.
*Thumbs up*

MountainHound wrote: »

No I adapted and moved on as crying on the forums isn't going to convert the changes back?

You don't see the problem with this?

Everybody "adapted" (i.e., re-rolled) or swtiched to stam. The point of making big long threads is to gain attention to *** that broken. I see maybe 1 or 0 magicka DKs per evening.

Vamps back in the day were the worst.

vamp_emily wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

I play PvP daily on Xbox and have not once seen this occur. Mind explaining what's so great about a group using Steel Tornado? I haven't touched the skill since the update because my new character doesn't use Dual Wield.

i agree with you, i play PC and i basicly live in cryodiil and im in cryodiil on a constant basis and i myself have never seen what this thread topic is describing.

I think the poster woke up from a bad dream and posted this. I too play PvP and never see this.

I honestly dont get this. Where the hell do you guys play? On some half empty version of BwB on console?

On PC normal VR campaigns we have guilds running double trains spamming Steel Tornado on a daily basis. That's 30-50 guys in a big blob all mashing 12 meter radius AoE with execute.

But I gotta say, it's way less insta-win now. Back in 1.6, they also exploited sharpened trait + piercing for 100% armor penetration on Tornado which pretty much killed anything instantly, including guys in full heavy armor. That *** was beyond broken.

Now the dmg is back to more normal numbers, until execute. It's just the massive range on it, compared to all other AoE's in the game,making it troublesome for defenders(not running Steel Tornado blobs themselves) to avoid and counter around objectives.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

And that's my core problem I know I'm not the only 5l 2h casters and I can take a lot of damage, heal and shield up with zero problems. True I don't hit as hard as my stamina builds but I can outlast them with ease fights where they would die my casters stay up longer and even win.

This I'm afraid is very very subjective and based on your opinion.

I know many very capable stamina players who can outlast magicka builds and 1vX with relative ease. It's all on the handler.

Despite that deviation, that still doesn't detract from my argument that Steel Tornado is too strong as a PBAoE for the all the reasons already mentioned. Stamina builds don't need still tornado to be a 12m double execute to be competitive. They would still do fine with 8m range.

Where the hell did you quote that from? I can't find my post containing it and am wondering at the context or even the patch I quoted it in haha. My Sorc hits like a damn truck right now and would ace my NB easily.

Something got really screwed with the tags XD

That's a quote from @kendellking_chaosb14_ESO from above, not from you!

EDIT: I though you play S&B on your NB? Put on a shield breaker set, slot defensive posture (in case your sorc decides to go into overload spam ) and reverberating bash for the heal debuff and just keep applying pressure with double anim cancel of la+surprise attack+bash. It would take a very good sorc to work his way out of that one. Not impossible mind you, but the odds are stacked very much against that sorc.

My NB without using cloak is pretty weak to good sorcs. I'm really only strong against templar, other nightblades and magicka DKs. I can beat most stamina DKs but Sribes destroyed me easily the other night as did Kodi on his sorc. It just comes down to not being able to outheal steady damage while breaking shields. I'd need to run cloak to get any better at that.

My Sorc also runs sword and board and has 1800 stamina regen....and more when using tripots. I can pop immovable detect pot, crit-surge, defensive rune + reflect then go into overload. The first reflect on that stam user is going to pop my defensive rune while reflecting it back at him and in many cases he's eating two overloads that will 2-shot anyone if they crit.

Crit Surge + Degeneration + Mines + fragment heals, it's easy to keep a nightblade on the defensive the whole time if played right while supplying a steady source of healing, especially since a stamina build has nothing to remove my defensive posture in his arsenal.

My favorite part of fighting stamina users running a bow + shield breaker is killing them with their own Assassin's Will....which is reflectable haha. I got some rage tells on that the other night.