Steel Tornado Train

pdebie64b16_ESO · October 2015

I hate those steel tornado spammers, and with the right sets those spammers get some extra bonusses to

Its a brainless, no players skill needed, easy ap gathering, one button, even if you totaly drunk, gear doent matter, my grandmother can do this to, win ability...

MisterBigglesworth · October 2015

Alucardo · October 2015

It does kinda suck, but most of the steel tornados I receive are from stam sorcs. What else are they going to use, WB? Because I'm pretty sure that gets complained about a lot too. I really feel sorry for these guys.

Cathexis · October 2015

Stikato wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

This Meta is AWFUL.

This is the worst incarnation of ESO pvp by a longshot.

Worse than 0 bats cost DKs?
Worse than caltrops negating all siege dmg?
Worse than purge insta death bug?

PvP meta sorta has a way of moving from one bad one meta to another bad one.

Outside of those specific problems, there were fun fights to be had all over the place. Cyrodiil was very active during those eras.

Now? Pop balance is garbage most of the time. The only fights to be had are occasional zergs bashing into each other. Double+ scroll runs are the norm rather than the exception. The sewers are mostly just pve'rs grinding and occasionally getting ganked by pvp'ers. The city itself is pointless. ZOS, rather than address OP skills, blanket nerfed everything, and in the process, fixed nothing.

Yeah, it's the worst. Not that it's always been sunshine and roses, but this is as bad as it's been.

I'd trade Cyrodiil now, for Cyrodiil in any of those eras in a second.

Yea but have you been in any real cyrodiil battles lately? I've been in a lot of 40 vs 40s that are REAL fights. The meta I think isn't the issue so much as the effed up population balance like you say.

Recremen · October 2015

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

I hate those steel tornado spammers, and with the right sets those spammers get some extra bonusses to

Its a brainless, no players skill needed, easy ap gathering, one button, even if you totaly drunk, gear doent matter, my grandmother can do this to, win ability...

If one group is literally just spamming ST, yours should be able to wreck them easily. Any good group can wreck a bunch of pretenders relying on steel tornado exclusively. and they can do so consistently. The only problem you should be having is when a group has tornado, good heals, well-timed support abilities, AoE CC, well-timed ultimates, good discipline, and a leader who outmaneuvers their group's competition. But at that point it kind of throws a wrench in the "no player skill" narrative.

Stikato · October 2015

Cathexis, I can't quote on my iPad for some reason. But I do agree. I have been in some fun fights. It's just the balance is so bad, that once a good bomb group starts plowing through the map, most people just give up and go to sewers. It's like the pop of non- bomb groups is too low most of time to counter the organized groups.

And I'm sure it's fun to bomb and win over and over and over again, but it can't really be that challenging. And it's not much fun for us smaller groups and solos to try to fight really difficult odds. I think this is why (not to derail) AOE cap is being talked about so much lately. It would be nice instead of factions blaming each other, or different play styles disagreeing, we could find common ground that we all agree on. Like IC gating or something.

I just want Cyrodiil to be fun again. Maybe it's just EP that is no longer enjoyable most of the time. Maybe it's just me. But I've pvpd almost every night for 2-3 hours since last April, and this is even worse than the end of 1.6, when the game had gotten so stagnant with form builds and exploits left unadjusted for months. There are just very very few fun fights to be had.

Steel tornado is just an easy thing to point to because it's so prevelant. But I agree that it is not the only issue by a long shot.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2015

Ashnunn wrote: »

Something needs to be done about endless zerg trains spamming steel tornado. Its as bad if not worse than the impulse spam of old, except impulse didn't get a low health bonus and now physical damage can't be mitigated through the CP tree. Its getting ridiculous

Quick point Steel Tornado getting double buffed* is bs to the highest order. But the CP how let you mitigate physical damage you can buff your armor rating which lowers the damage you take for physical attacks and as your armor and spell resistance from armor is the same before traits, class, set and race bonus take effect buffing Armor will do as much good as buffing resistance to magic only to defend against physical damage you only need to guard one type of damage.

*Dual has a passive that buffs damage on low health targets this stacks with Steel Tornado.

Teargrants · October 2015

I remember once upon a time I was explaining to people here how Steel Tornado is so much better than Impulse, and how raids would switch to stam for it. Ppl told me that was BS and raids would never switch to stam dps because reasons, ect.

Well, here we are.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

I remember once upon a time I was explaining to people here how Steel Tornado is so much better than Impulse, and how raids would switch to stam for it. Ppl told me that was BS and raids would never switch to stam dps because reasons, ect.

Well, here we are.

Not going to lie if in December anyone told me that I would get hate whispers and get called a talentless FOTM player cause I run Bow and One Hand and Shield or Bow and Two-handed, or that people would call stamina op I would have told Cadwell to put the crack down and go home but now...

Recremen · October 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

I remember once upon a time I was explaining to people here how Steel Tornado is so much better than Impulse, and how raids would switch to stam for it. Ppl told me that was BS and raids would never switch to stam dps because reasons, ect.

Well, here we are.

To be fair, some of the old metas highly favored Impulse, it was just so good. Then we got magicka ability nerfs, stamina ability buffs, and you can't blockcast forever. All that together now makes tornado the obvious choice. So at the time they might have been correct!

Cathexis · October 2015

Stikato wrote: »

Cathexis, I can't quote on my iPad for some reason. But I do agree. I have been in some fun fights. It's just the balance is so bad, that once a good bomb group starts plowing through the map, most people just give up and go to sewers. It's like the pop of non- bomb groups is too low most of time to counter the organized groups.

And I'm sure it's fun to bomb and win over and over and over again, but it can't really be that challenging. And it's not much fun for us smaller groups and solos to try to fight really difficult odds. I think this is why (not to derail) AOE cap is being talked about so much lately. It would be nice instead of factions blaming each other, or different play styles disagreeing, we could find common ground that we all agree on. Like IC gating or something.

I just want Cyrodiil to be fun again. Maybe it's just EP that is no longer enjoyable most of the time. Maybe it's just me. But I've pvpd almost every night for 2-3 hours since last April, and this is even worse than the end of 1.6, when the game had gotten so stagnant with form builds and exploits left unadjusted for months. There are just very very few fun fights to be had.

Steel tornado is just an easy thing to point to because it's so prevelant. But I agree that it is not the only issue by a long shot.

I agree, certainly when IC just came out, cyrodiil became a ghost town for DC in Azura. However, after a serious defeat last campaign, a lot of DC were up in arms about it and since then there has been a significantly stronger resistance in cyrodiil. I agree with you that the true nature of the problem on the forum is in players using it as a platform to hurt each other instead of solving problems and building creative contributions. I think that AoE bombing in general is the problem. Blob vs blob is not really tactical. I play in that a lot but its still just who can hit harder together and the AoE component just makes it a targetless practice.

tennant94 · October 2015

@op. Stop trying to be superman and leave zergs alone... problem solved.

ScruffyWhiskers · October 2015

tennant94 wrote: »

@op. Stop trying to be superman and leave zergs alone... problem solved.

Huh? Reminds me of a famous quote: "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."

Stikato · October 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

Cathexis, I can't quote on my iPad for some reason. But I do agree. I have been in some fun fights. It's just the balance is so bad, that once a good bomb group starts plowing through the map, most people just give up and go to sewers. It's like the pop of non- bomb groups is too low most of time to counter the organized groups.

And I'm sure it's fun to bomb and win over and over and over again, but it can't really be that challenging. And it's not much fun for us smaller groups and solos to try to fight really difficult odds. I think this is why (not to derail) AOE cap is being talked about so much lately. It would be nice instead of factions blaming each other, or different play styles disagreeing, we could find common ground that we all agree on. Like IC gating or something.

I just want Cyrodiil to be fun again. Maybe it's just EP that is no longer enjoyable most of the time. Maybe it's just me. But I've pvpd almost every night for 2-3 hours since last April, and this is even worse than the end of 1.6, when the game had gotten so stagnant with form builds and exploits left unadjusted for months. There are just very very few fun fights to be had.

Steel tornado is just an easy thing to point to because it's so prevelant. But I agree that it is not the only issue by a long shot.

I agree, certainly when IC just came out, cyrodiil became a ghost town for DC in Azura. However, after a serious defeat last campaign, a lot of DC were up in arms about it and since then there has been a significantly stronger resistance in cyrodiil. I agree with you that the true nature of the problem on the forum is in players using it as a platform to hurt each other instead of solving problems and building creative contributions. I think that AoE bombing in general is the problem. Blob vs blob is not really tactical. I play in that a lot but its still just who can hit harder together and the AoE component just makes it a targetless practice.

Very well said.

Anazasi · October 2015

Remove AOE caps. Will promote smaller groups. Lol right......

Teargrants · October 2015

tennant94 wrote: »

@op. Stop trying to be superman and leave zergs alone... problem solved.

And when PvP consists of zergs running back and forth.....just leave them all alone and RP at the gate if you too do not wish to zerg? Are you perchance a dev?

Maulkin · October 2015

Anazasi wrote: »

Remove AOE caps. Will promote smaller groups. Lol right......

Lol, why not? Rationalise it for me.

jhharvest · October 2015

Turn on friendly damage. No more steel tornado blobs. Or, you could make it (and every player concentrated aoe) a cone attack, so it would require some skill to use. You don't see templar trains running with their pokey pokes even though jabs is technically stronger than tornado.

xXNesTXx · October 2015

Garion wrote: »

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

I play PvP daily on Xbox and have not once seen this occur. Mind explaining what's so great about a group using Steel Tornado? I haven't touched the skill since the update because my new character doesn't use Dual Wield.

High range, high damage and an execute due to dual wield passive. There is no better PBAoE in the game.

High range maybe (the same of WB) but high damage? I don't think so.....i only use Steel tornado in PVE because in PVP is crap.....

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2015

The best fix is not to nerf this AoE and that AoE they need to make Single target attacks more powerful if I can only hit one guy at a time that damage should be high.

So long as hitting 6 people for 4K with Steel Tornado is better then hitting one with a 6k Suprise Attack we will be right back here with the next why is this AoE train so much better then anything else in the game.

Remember Impulse, Proc Det. And now Steel Tornado and Bombard.

The core balance of AoE vs Single target must be addressed before a lasting fix can ever hope to work.

Teargrants · October 2015

xXNesTXx wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

I play PvP daily on Xbox and have not once seen this occur. Mind explaining what's so great about a group using Steel Tornado? I haven't touched the skill since the update because my new character doesn't use Dual Wield.

High range, high damage and an execute due to dual wield passive. There is no better PBAoE in the game.

High range maybe (the same of WB) but high damage? I don't think so.....i only use Steel tornado in PVE because in PVP is crap.....

If you think steel tornado is crap in PvP, clearly you have never PvP'd in or against a raid group.

PhatGrimReaper · October 2015

Take Flight -> Nado Spam..... soo much death.... choo, choo....

Hektik_V · October 2015

The discrepancy between impluse and steel tornado is too great. The area area of effect for impluse is 113.097 m^2. Compare this to the area of effect for steel tornado being 490.874 m^2. The fact that the stamina area of effect is well over four times the area of the magicka area of effect is highly imbalanced.

svartorn · October 2015

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Ishammael · October 2015

Hektik_V wrote: »

The discrepancy between impluse and steel tornado is too great. The area area of effect for impluse is 113.097 m^2. Compare this to the area of effect for steel tornado being 490.874 m^2. The fact that the stamina area of effect is well over four times the area of the magicka area of effect is highly imbalanced.

It's not just the area.

It benefits from:
1. Better stamina wpn dmg stacking (med armor +12% and various set bonuses.)
2. Execute passive in DW skill line
3. Increased dmg to rooted or stunned enemies.

Pre 1.7 I was seeing 10k crits on a regular basis (yes, sharpened bug). Now it's less... But not too much less because stats are so high.

Ryuho · October 2015

I want jesus beam tornado for my templar

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

The discrepancy between impluse and steel tornado is too great. The area area of effect for impluse is 113.097 m^2. Compare this to the area of effect for steel tornado being 490.874 m^2. The fact that the stamina area of effect is well over four times the area of the magicka area of effect is highly imbalanced.

It's not just the area.

It benefits from:
1. Better stamina wpn dmg stacking (med armor +12% and various set bonuses.)
2. Execute passive in DW skill line
3. Increased dmg to rooted or stunned enemies.

Pre 1.7 I was seeing 10k crits on a regular basis (yes, sharpened bug). Now it's less... But not too much less because stats are so high.

First off I agree something needs to be about Steel Tornado groups. However I miss your points.
1. Weapon Damage stack? You mean doing more damage same way Magicka lets you Stack Spell Penetration. Light Armor passive, CP perk, Weapon passive from Destro the line with Impulse and a weapon trait. Ignoring so much of my spell resistance increases your attacking damage. Same stacking same result different forms.

2.This is valid, I have made the same point.

3. This point would make sense IF the power applied any of those which it doesn't and if they are just spamming Steel Tornado and nothing else but buffs which it what is happening then they are not CCing you.

Again I agree Steel Tornado or more so the mind set that it gives players is the same as Impulse the power and the mind set need to be fixed or we will be right back here again with the next AoE train power.

Maulkin · October 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

1. Weapon Damage stack? You mean doing more damage same way Magicka lets you Stack Spell Penetration. Light Armor passive, CP perk, Weapon passive from Destro the line with Impulse and a weapon trait. Ignoring so much of my spell resistance increases your attacking damage. Same stacking same result different forms.

Hmm?

The destro staff passive is matched by Maul/Maces passive (which is actually better for high armor targets) and the Spell Erosion CP passive is perfectly matched by Piercing Strikes passive.

The only extra benefits you have for spell penetration is 4% more from Nirn as opposed to Sharpened and the Light armor passive. Best case scenario, you get ~6k combined penetration more (4.5k la passive + 1.5k nirn) which is 9% more damage.

Now compare that 9% more damage to the fact you can mitigate 25% more spell damage via Elemental Defender or Hardy and yeah... you can mitigate a lot more spell damage via armor/passive choices than physical damage, despite the better penetration.

On top of that we have medium armour granting a boost to Weapon Damage, Flaweless Dawnbreaker granting another boost and finally weapon enchants that also boost weapon damage.

TL;DR; Spell damage penetration is more than canceled out by the fact you can mitigate it more by CP allocation and Weapon Damage is still a lot easier to stack than spell damage.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

1. Weapon Damage stack? You mean doing more damage same way Magicka lets you Stack Spell Penetration. Light Armor passive, CP perk, Weapon passive from Destro the line with Impulse and a weapon trait. Ignoring so much of my spell resistance increases your attacking damage. Same stacking same result different forms.

Hmm?

The destro staff passive is matched by Maul/Maces passive (which is actually better for high armor targets) and the Spell Erosion CP passive is perfectly matched by Piercing Strikes passive.

The only extra benefits you have for spell penetration is 4% more from Nirn as opposed to Sharpened and the Light armor passive. Best case scenario, you get ~6k combined penetration more (4.5k la passive + 1.5k nirn) which is 9% more damage.

Now compare that 9% more damage to the fact you can mitigate 25% more spell damage via Elemental Defender or Hardy and yeah... you can mitigate a lot more spell damage via armor/passive choices than physical damage, despite the better penetration.

On top of that we have medium armour granting a boost to Weapon Damage, Flaweless Dawnbreaker granting another boost and finally weapon enchants that also boost weapon damage.

TL;DR; Spell damage penetration is more than canceled out by the fact you can mitigate it more by CP allocation and Weapon Damage is still a lot easier to stack than spell damage.

All very true but at a few points. For one can you not buff your armor within the same tree? If you get the same amount of base armor and spell resistance for an armor piece then buffing your resistance to magic or elemental damage by 25% or your armor by 25% will have the same increase. The question here is if Stamiba builds and Tanks can take this perk to shield them better from magic why can't casters do the same?

Penetration with far superior regeneration, regeneration made better with the heavy penalties of rolling or blocking. With a far smaller drain on your core resource plus good damage yes not as high but still great ignoring spell resistance is just a plus.

Stamina was to have high damage with high chances to land a critical hit. Magic was to high Magic pools with high regeneration. One to hit hard but not have staying power and one to never run out of fighting power.

Casters are have just as many powers that give major and minor damage buffs to magic just as many major and minor debuff with fewer drains to magic. Bigger pools and better regeneration. Caster trying to fight like stamina builds and stamina builds trying to fight like casters. Is what makes people think the difference is bigger then it is.

Maulkin · October 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

All very true but at a few points. For one can you not buff your armor within the same tree? If you get the same amount of base armor and spell resistance for an armor piece then buffing your resistance to magic or elemental damage by 25% or your armor by 25% will have the same increase. The question here is if Stamiba builds and Tanks can take this perk to shield them better from magic why can't casters do the same?

Not sure what you're you're trying to say here. You are countering your own argument. Magic damage is mitigated better by everyone. Hence why having stamina DDs in a train makes it more efficient since physical damage is mitigated a lot less. Also you are making some wrong assumptions about how these passives work, I would advise you to either read up a bit or test them if you are interested

The rest of your point is that stamina should hit harder overall, again with some wrong assumptions about regen rates and resource pools, which can perhaps be debated.

But overall I can't justify the fact that you have a skill with 12m AoE and double execute bonus when combined with the weapon damage/physical mitigation situation we described.