statisticalanomaly13ub17_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

statisticalanomaly13ub17_ESO wrote: »

This is why console players don't want text chat as much as they think they do. And I'm on console.

Bot support, chat logss to confirm reported behavior, mute options, private channels... Yeah, text chat will be utterly toxic on consoles. [/sarcasm]

Go look at the text chat in Neverwinter. [/nosarcasm]<--[/sarcasm]

An exception does not prove a point, only that an exception exists. If you look at FFXIV, Warframe, and DCUO, all of those have great communities. You will still get spammers and other types of advertisement but the chat is regulated and generally useful.

Ezareth wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Why should they tolerate abuse in their job that no player would be willing to tolerate in his?

I take it you haven't worked very long.....

Just over 42 years actually, until I retired at the end of last year. You?

Touché. Only half that but the point remains.

No, the point does not remain. An abusive customer is never right. There's simply no reason for bad behaviour to others who are simply doing their job, and hiding behind the anonymity of the internet is no excuse whatsoever. If people had to post with their real identities they would think at least twice before making the sort of comments they make currently. Perhaps then those they are dealing with who are already posting with their real identities, including ZOS, would be more prepared to be open with them.

During my career in a service profession I more than once declined to act for an abusive client, and told such clients their approach was totally unacceptable. My business never suffered as a result, whereas my reputation would have suffered if I had yielded to their approach and considered them "always right", and my business with it.

The point remains whether you choose to accept it or try to twist the point into some straw man point that was not made.

I'll reiterate since you seemed to miss it: "There is no excuse for degrading another human being.".

Not a straw man point at all. Our exchange relates to a sentence in which you accused me of not having worked for very long, and asked if I had heard the saying "the customer is always right". That second part was what I was rejecting after established that I had worked for over 42 years. I made it clear that was what I was referring to by mentioning it at the end of my reply. I accept entirely your separate comment that "there is no excuse for degrading another human being" but that wasn't the point I was replying to. The notion that the customer is always right does not provide a justification for him being abusive to the person he's dealing with.

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

To those that stream and have their own shows

Steaming has become so open to everyone now-a-days that people lose sight of the influence they can have on a lot of people and the fact that you can build your own fan base and indirectly use it for better or worse. Because in some of your fans minds, all you say is the truth, no matter what. And while most of what you say will be true and are great issues to bring up and discuss, you need to temper these issues and opinions you have with respect and in a manner that will not cause riotous behavior or your hate of a subject will blow through the rest of the ESO community like a mushroom cloud and will turn it toxic like we saw recently.

I'm not placing the blame entirely towards streamers, because every individual has a mind of their own. However, you can influence them more than you might think.

Unfortunately, that is rather the point for a lot of them and not something that will change just because a few people point this out.

What can change it is the rest of us not supporting these clowns who have nothing better to do in life than play a video game 24/7 and stream themselves doing it, asking for donations from viewers in order to further enable them to keep at it, etc.

A lot of these people literally do not have jobs, know little to nothing about game development, and are mainly only interested in staying at home, playing, and taking for a ride straight to the bank all the gullible people out there who feed off this nonsense themselves.

Game developers also don't do themselves or the rest of us any favors by cherry-picking a handful of these people for backend support in order to promote their titles. Whn the chickens come home to roost, and they always do, these are the results.

As is, there are a lot of people on twitch and other channels within You Tube all too willing to cause this kind of trouble. Stop "following" them, upvoting them, and certainly stop giving them money.

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

@SleepyTroll Eric actually said the cap is 501 because we needed it to be evenly divisible by 3. (so stam builds don't get 1 extra CP over Magicka)

As for the chat... well that is the internet sometimes heh. You take the good with the bad and have to develop a pretty thick skin doing what we do. I did really appreciate a whisper from a certain person who apologized for some of the more "passionate" PVP folks though.

this is so nice. i dont want to be rude Rich i will tell you one thing. Even generaly free to play games are able to bring more pvp stuff, pvp updates more often and better quality. LTM learn to manage

@VincentBlanquin : What does this have to do with the current topic (the incorrect behaviour in twitch chat during ESO live) or with what Rich said ?
And by the way if F2P games are so much better why do you play ESO and not those games ?

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

@SleepyTroll Eric actually said the cap is 501 because we needed it to be evenly divisible by 3. (so stam builds don't get 1 extra CP over Magicka)

As for the chat... well that is the internet sometimes heh. You take the good with the bad and have to develop a pretty thick skin doing what we do. I did really appreciate a whisper from a certain person who apologized for some of the more "passionate" PVP folks though.

this is so nice. i dont want to be rude Rich i will tell you one thing. Even generaly free to play games are able to bring more pvp stuff, pvp updates more often and better quality. LTM learn to manage

@VincentBlanquin : What does this have to do with the current topic (the incorrect behaviour in twitch chat during ESO live) or with what Rich said ?
And by the way if F2P games are so much better why do you play ESO and not those games ?

its opinion directly on rich post

i play f2p game too and still expect better pvp at eso

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

@FENGRUSH or no one else that we know or care about was throwing insults. The people who were personally insulting to members of ZoS are not sanctioned by *anyone* in the PVP crowd so just stop yourself right there when you try to lump them in with us. Otherwise I can easily spend an insignificant amount of time finding players in the "PvE crowd" hurling similar insults and lump you in with them as well if you'd like.

Streamers were not personally throwing insults but they could just as well have encouraged or manipulated people into doing so.

Now @FENGRUSH says "Both the content and the form of these people are understandable and legit and you should listen to them", and so say you, that's clearly choosing sides and even if I don't put the whole PvP crowd in that basket, at least I put you and him together with these respectless kids because by defending them, you agree with them in both content and form.

Ezareth wrote: »

I'll reiterate since you seemed to miss it: "There is no excuse for degrading another human being.".

One-line-"statement" followed by two paragraphs explaining exactly the opposite and finding excuses and reasons for such behaviours.

Ezareth wrote: »

That said, the overwhelming majority of the responses in the live stream were not abusive but they did have demands that were continually ignored. I can communicate with any of the vendors that I use both professionally and personally for various services and make demands of them for my continued patronage. They might refuse me, they might try to placate me or even tell me they no longer wish to do business with me. Some of them would even accept my demands if they were reasonable yet I can tell you for a fact that none of those vendors would ever ignore my demands. What we saw in the twitch stream and what we continue to see in both the forums and the content released in this game is a ZoS team that continues to ignore it's PvP playerbase and that very fact is the #1 reason we see the playerbase has declined to a mere shadow of its former self.

For over a year we were promised..even teased with new PvP Content. It never came. The it turned into a DLC and we were told we would have to buy it instead. Some of us were angry but many of us were understanding and patient. It was going to be the solution to so many of the problems that plagued us. We were accommodating to the plight of ZoS and the overall health of the game. We watched the PvP community in constant decline due to unchecked exploits, lag, and balance changes that have decimated our guilds and friends lists alike. Yet when that content came what was delivered was the largest PvE patch since Craglorn....with PvP thrown in as an afterthought. No new ranking system. No competitive ladders. No new Ranks or anything to excite the players who have been logging into Cyrodiil every day since beta...just a PvE grind that made all the other grinds before it pale in comparison.

So yes many of us are angry and we have good reason to be. Instead of communication we are ignored. The ZoS posts in the PvP forums could be a study in broken promises and half truths. You could cut the tension in there with a knife most days and much of the toxicity is aimed at ZoS. But we're still here....and many of us are still supporting the game because we believe in the potential it holds and we've invested too much of our lives into it at this point to be complacent. The players who are left are the most dedicated, the most patient, and have more hope for the future of this game than any of the players who have come before us....we wouldn't be here and still complaining otherwise.

Our yoke is easy and our burden is light...yet our voice is often the loudest. So cut us a little slack for demanding a response from the people who make their living off of our continued patronage.

Your repeated use of the words "Patronage" and "demands" shows that, like many people on these forums, you get confused between being a customer and being a boss. You're a customer. As a customer, you have the right to go on using/buying the product or to stop using/buying it, and use/buy the competition's products - or not. That does NOT give you the right to design the product yourself, nor to tell the company how to deal with things.

As a customer, you are encouraged to provide feedback and suggestions, BUT NOT DEMANDS. If you've invested "too much of your lives" in ESO you might reconsider your priorities but that's your problem, not ZOS'. ZOS owes you nothing for playing the game. (Not withstanding that it could also be read as "we don't have to cater for them, they've invested too much of their lives into the game to quit anyway, let's get other people addicted instead").

You're not "patronising" ZOS, you're just a customer, among hundreds of thousands of other customers. While admittedly no company can live without its customers, nothing tells you that you're the core or most important portion of said customers. Maybe the ones who really make it possible for ZOS to make a living and produce the game are the RP crowd who politely suggest new emotes and costumes and don't care the slightest bit for a PvP arena.

You pretend that the PvP audience has plummeted : please provide numbers. I think this is only an impression you get from your direct environment in the game and is not representative of the real overall situation. It's even very much possible that this had been induced in your direct environment by your own constant rantings and toxic attitude.

You have probably done more harm to the game by spreading a negative image of ZOS and the game all this time and acting respectless (or supporting those who do). If you really want to "support" ZOS and the game, the best way to do it is to quit playing (and posting here) now and come back when you enjoy playing it and have something positive or constructive to say about it.


.

People like you are the exact reason I avoid the general forums. Completely ignore everything said. Insert straw man argument that was not said. Knock it down and claim victory. Forum warrior logic 101. Congrats?

No one excused insults at ZoS, you keep bringing that up and then using it to justify your non-argument. Feel free to twist words and make it seem otherwise to save face, but you're not fooling anyone with more than 2 brain cells.

I only brought up and rationalized the frustration felt by the majority of the players in PvP community to frame our perspective for those of you in carebear land. Go to the PvP forums, find me a postive poll created by anyone in the community there. You will find the trust in ZoS, the direction PvP is headed, and the general satisfaction of the majority of players there are all deep in the negative.

As far as statistics, those are easy to provide as I've been following them closely for a long time. IC has mudied the waters quite a bit due to the injection of PvE players into Cyrodiil but once the brief flood of players created by ESO going FTP died out Cyrodiil returned to its slow but steady decline. It was easy to get stats on by joining a new campaign and looking at your campaign alliance rank. What used to be 20,000 upon joining a new campaign ended up as low as 5K on even the most populous campaigns. The number of campaigns has continued to shrink (A couple were added for the PvE population and all are dead campaigns in NA as of this point) and in the less populous campaigns you'd up up in the 300-500 rank upon joining a campaign. After I averaged out all the campaigns I multiplied it by 3 (figuring equal numbers for each side despite DC having far less numbers than EP/AD) and I arrived at ~20K for the totality of NA players in 1.6. If the European servers are anything similar to the NA servers you can double that again and you have around ~40K PvP players worldwide (And I use that term loosely because earning a single AP point in a campaign hardly classifies you as a PvPer). This number back in 1.2 or 1.3 when I started tracking it this way was well over 100K in North America alone.

If you still don't believe me you can ask the leaders of any of the major PvP guilds out there just how well their membership rolls are doing. A PvP guild I'm in Alacrity which used to be the Premier PvP guild in NA has less than 1 quarter of its players signed in the past month. Less than half of that quarter have signed in in the past 3 days. That mirrors almost any major PvP guild that I know of. I've been talking to all the sides recently and there's nothing positive being said.

As a customer we have a right to make the requirements for your patronage known. The existence of these forums are the proof of that statement. The PvP players in this game were promised many things by ZoS and none of them were delivered, so yes we're going to make demands and make our voices heard.

Your claim of my "Toxicity" is pathetic and shows you're being either deliberately obtuse or you just lack a firm grasp of English, I can't say which. I never spammed chat. I never insulted anyone at ZoS. I merely put the situation into perspective for you, just like @FENGRUSH tried to do yet you continue to try to label us and lump us in with people who have nothing in common with us.

Soulshine wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

To those that stream and have their own shows

Steaming has become so open to everyone now-a-days that people lose sight of the influence they can have on a lot of people and the fact that you can build your own fan base and indirectly use it for better or worse. Because in some of your fans minds, all you say is the truth, no matter what. And while most of what you say will be true and are great issues to bring up and discuss, you need to temper these issues and opinions you have with respect and in a manner that will not cause riotous behavior or your hate of a subject will blow through the rest of the ESO community like a mushroom cloud and will turn it toxic like we saw recently.

I'm not placing the blame entirely towards streamers, because every individual has a mind of their own. However, you can influence them more than you might think.

Unfortunately, that is rather the point for a lot of them and not something that will change just because a few people point this out.

What can change it is the rest of us not supporting these clowns who have nothing better to do in life than play a video game 24/7 and stream themselves doing it, asking for donations from viewers in order to further enable them to keep at it, etc.

A lot of these people literally do not have jobs, know little to nothing about game development, and are mainly only interested in staying at home, playing, and taking for a ride straight to the bank all the gullible people out there who feed off this nonsense themselves.

Game developers also don't do themselves or the rest of us any favors by cherry-picking a handful of these people for backend support in order to promote their titles. Whn the chickens come home to roost, and they always do, these are the results.

As is, there are a lot of people on twitch and other channels within You Tube all too willing to cause this kind of trouble. Stop "following" them, upvoting them, and certainly stop giving them money.

Ignorance on display for all here. I lump this guy in with the rest of you just as you did the spammers with us.

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

To those that stream and have their own shows

Steaming has become so open to everyone now-a-days that people lose sight of the influence they can have on a lot of people and the fact that you can build your own fan base and indirectly use it for better or worse. Because in some of your fans minds, all you say is the truth, no matter what. And while most of what you say will be true and are great issues to bring up and discuss, you need to temper these issues and opinions you have with respect and in a manner that will not cause riotous behavior or your hate of a subject will blow through the rest of the ESO community like a mushroom cloud and will turn it toxic like we saw recently.

I'm not placing the blame entirely towards streamers, because every individual has a mind of their own. However, you can influence them more than you might think.

Unfortunately, that is rather the point for a lot of them and not something that will change just because a few people point this out.

What can change it is the rest of us not supporting these clowns who have nothing better to do in life than play a video game 24/7 and stream themselves doing it, asking for donations from viewers in order to further enable them to keep at it, etc.

A lot of these people literally do not have jobs, know little to nothing about game development, and are mainly only interested in staying at home, playing, and taking for a ride straight to the bank all the gullible people out there who feed off this nonsense themselves.

Game developers also don't do themselves or the rest of us any favors by cherry-picking a handful of these people for backend support in order to promote their titles. Whn the chickens come home to roost, and they always do, these are the results.

As is, there are a lot of people on twitch and other channels within You Tube all too willing to cause this kind of trouble. Stop "following" them, upvoting them, and certainly stop giving them money.

Ignorance on display for all here. I lump this guy in with the rest of you just as you did the spammers with us.

The only ignorance on display is your assumption that I was referring to your arguments in mentioning the above - fact is it was in reference to a specific problem which is quite prevalent at the moment and plaguing all games where Twitch streamers and the crowds that support them have gotten out of control and end up negatively impacting many game communities they claim to support.

Soulshine wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

To those that stream and have their own shows

Steaming has become so open to everyone now-a-days that people lose sight of the influence they can have on a lot of people and the fact that you can build your own fan base and indirectly use it for better or worse. Because in some of your fans minds, all you say is the truth, no matter what. And while most of what you say will be true and are great issues to bring up and discuss, you need to temper these issues and opinions you have with respect and in a manner that will not cause riotous behavior or your hate of a subject will blow through the rest of the ESO community like a mushroom cloud and will turn it toxic like we saw recently.

I'm not placing the blame entirely towards streamers, because every individual has a mind of their own. However, you can influence them more than you might think.

Unfortunately, that is rather the point for a lot of them and not something that will change just because a few people point this out.

What can change it is the rest of us not supporting these clowns who have nothing better to do in life than play a video game 24/7 and stream themselves doing it, asking for donations from viewers in order to further enable them to keep at it, etc.

A lot of these people literally do not have jobs, know little to nothing about game development, and are mainly only interested in staying at home, playing, and taking for a ride straight to the bank all the gullible people out there who feed off this nonsense themselves.

Game developers also don't do themselves or the rest of us any favors by cherry-picking a handful of these people for backend support in order to promote their titles. Whn the chickens come home to roost, and they always do, these are the results.

As is, there are a lot of people on twitch and other channels within You Tube all too willing to cause this kind of trouble. Stop "following" them, upvoting them, and certainly stop giving them money.

Ignorance on display for all here. I lump this guy in with the rest of you just as you did the spammers with us.

The only ignorance on display is your assumption that I was referring to your arguments in mentioning the above - fact is it was in reference to a specific problem which is quite prevalent at the moment and plaguing all games where Twitch streamers and the crowds that support them have gotten out of control and end up negatively impacting many game communities they claim to support.

I wasn't referring to my arguments, only your comments on Twitch Streamers, chiefly the guys supporting ESO. They were so off base I couldn't resist jumping in.

There isn't a player in the game who has helped more people than @sypherpk2ub17_ESO learn the ropes of this game that I've seen. He's been a constant promoter of it since he first started. He's the only streamer I know in ESO who doesn't have a job or isn't in college and he's trying to make a career out of it. Good for him! All of the guys streaming are trying to build a healthy positive game, not fleece the players out of some petty cash. A few of the streamers are making some damn good money in their RL jobs. They come home and they log in and play the game, not because they're trying to get rich, but because they enjoy doing what they do and others enjoy watching them play.

I'm no expert in twitch steaming and can't say what any of them are doing to other games, but the guys I've watched in ESO have done wonders for it, and ZoS has rightly shown their appreciation and support for them.

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

To those that stream and have their own shows

Steaming has become so open to everyone now-a-days that people lose sight of the influence they can have on a lot of people and the fact that you can build your own fan base and indirectly use it for better or worse. Because in some of your fans minds, all you say is the truth, no matter what. And while most of what you say will be true and are great issues to bring up and discuss, you need to temper these issues and opinions you have with respect and in a manner that will not cause riotous behavior or your hate of a subject will blow through the rest of the ESO community like a mushroom cloud and will turn it toxic like we saw recently.

I'm not placing the blame entirely towards streamers, because every individual has a mind of their own. However, you can influence them more than you might think.

Unfortunately, that is rather the point for a lot of them and not something that will change just because a few people point this out.

What can change it is the rest of us not supporting these clowns who have nothing better to do in life than play a video game 24/7 and stream themselves doing it, asking for donations from viewers in order to further enable them to keep at it, etc.

A lot of these people literally do not have jobs, know little to nothing about game development, and are mainly only interested in staying at home, playing, and taking for a ride straight to the bank all the gullible people out there who feed off this nonsense themselves.

Game developers also don't do themselves or the rest of us any favors by cherry-picking a handful of these people for backend support in order to promote their titles. Whn the chickens come home to roost, and they always do, these are the results.

As is, there are a lot of people on twitch and other channels within You Tube all too willing to cause this kind of trouble. Stop "following" them, upvoting them, and certainly stop giving them money.

Ignorance on display for all here. I lump this guy in with the rest of you just as you did the spammers with us.

The only ignorance on display is your assumption that I was referring to your arguments in mentioning the above - fact is it was in reference to a specific problem which is quite prevalent at the moment and plaguing all games where Twitch streamers and the crowds that support them have gotten out of control and end up negatively impacting many game communities they claim to support.

I wasn't referring to my arguments, only your comments on Twitch Streamers, chiefly the guys supporting ESO. They were so off base I couldn't resist jumping in.

There isn't a player in the game who has helped more people than @sypherpk2ub17_ESO learn the ropes of this game that I've seen. He's been a constant promoter of it since he first started. He's the only streamer I know in ESO who doesn't have a job or isn't in college and he's trying to make a career out of it. Good for him! All of the guys streaming are trying to build a healthy positive game, not fleece the players out of some petty cash. A few of the streamers are making some damn good money in their RL jobs. They come home and they log in and play the game, not because they're trying to get rich, but because they enjoy doing what they do and others enjoy watching them play.

I'm no expert in twitch steaming and can't say what any of them are doing to other games, but the guys I've watched in ESO have done wonders for it, and ZoS has rightly shown their appreciation and support for them.

Again, you are assuming I was referring to people you know personally and taking issue with that.

I was responding to another poster over a very specific issue brought up with many Twitch streamers who ARE out to just fleece people, who ARE irresponsible, and who for all intents and purposes only want to ride the drama wave of trolls and others like them to generate hate and in the end bank from it.

It is a phenomenon which has been so massively documented at this point that even Forbes magazine, among others, has written on the subject - as if that would somehow legitimize the problem. Do not confuse and conflate personal exceptions to the issue with what is most definitely a disgusting and all to real problem for many gaming communities, this one among them - whether your friends currently streaming contributed to it or not. It is an issue people participating in those streams need to be aware of and discourage. It is one thing to share game fun and knowledge - it is quite another to incite people into a froth for the sake of self promotion and profit.

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

To those that stream and have their own shows

Steaming has become so open to everyone now-a-days that people lose sight of the influence they can have on a lot of people and the fact that you can build your own fan base and indirectly use it for better or worse. Because in some of your fans minds, all you say is the truth, no matter what. And while most of what you say will be true and are great issues to bring up and discuss, you need to temper these issues and opinions you have with respect and in a manner that will not cause riotous behavior or your hate of a subject will blow through the rest of the ESO community like a mushroom cloud and will turn it toxic like we saw recently.

I'm not placing the blame entirely towards streamers, because every individual has a mind of their own. However, you can influence them more than you might think.

Unfortunately, that is rather the point for a lot of them and not something that will change just because a few people point this out.

What can change it is the rest of us not supporting these clowns who have nothing better to do in life than play a video game 24/7 and stream themselves doing it, asking for donations from viewers in order to further enable them to keep at it, etc.

A lot of these people literally do not have jobs, know little to nothing about game development, and are mainly only interested in staying at home, playing, and taking for a ride straight to the bank all the gullible people out there who feed off this nonsense themselves.

Game developers also don't do themselves or the rest of us any favors by cherry-picking a handful of these people for backend support in order to promote their titles. Whn the chickens come home to roost, and they always do, these are the results.

As is, there are a lot of people on twitch and other channels within You Tube all too willing to cause this kind of trouble. Stop "following" them, upvoting them, and certainly stop giving them money.

Ignorance on display for all here. I lump this guy in with the rest of you just as you did the spammers with us.

The only ignorance on display is your assumption that I was referring to your arguments in mentioning the above - fact is it was in reference to a specific problem which is quite prevalent at the moment and plaguing all games where Twitch streamers and the crowds that support them have gotten out of control and end up negatively impacting many game communities they claim to support.

I wasn't referring to my arguments, only your comments on Twitch Streamers, chiefly the guys supporting ESO. They were so off base I couldn't resist jumping in.

There isn't a player in the game who has helped more people than @sypherpk2ub17_ESO learn the ropes of this game that I've seen. He's been a constant promoter of it since he first started. He's the only streamer I know in ESO who doesn't have a job or isn't in college and he's trying to make a career out of it. Good for him! All of the guys streaming are trying to build a healthy positive game, not fleece the players out of some petty cash. A few of the streamers are making some damn good money in their RL jobs. They come home and they log in and play the game, not because they're trying to get rich, but because they enjoy doing what they do and others enjoy watching them play.

I'm no expert in twitch steaming and can't say what any of them are doing to other games, but the guys I've watched in ESO have done wonders for it, and ZoS has rightly shown their appreciation and support for them.

Again, you are assuming I was referring to people you know personally and taking issue with that.

I was responding to another poster over a very specific issue brought up with many Twitch streamers who ARE out to just fleece people, who ARE irresponsible, and who for all intents and purposes only want to ride the drama wave of trolls and others like them to generate hate and in the end bank from it.

It is a phenomenon which has been so massively documented at this point that even Forbes magazine, among others, has written on the subject - as if that would somehow legitimize the problem. Do not confuse and conflate personal exceptions to the issue with what is most definitely a disgusting and all to real problem for many gaming communities, this one among them - whether your friends currently streaming contributed to it or not. It is an issue people participating in those streams need to be aware of and discourage. It is one thing to share game fun and knowledge - it is quite another to incite people into a froth for the sake of self promotion and profit.

It has been suggested several times yet no evidence was given that any streamer had to do with the PvP Arena chat spam in Twitch. I was logged into Twitch 20 minutes prior to it going live and it was being spammed constantly then. *After* the stream went live Sypher dumped his stream into the broadcast and then a few minutes later so did Fengrush. This whole pointing fingers at streamers for the subject of this thread is absurd. No other stream was present that I saw other than Krotha and I never dumped anyone into the stream that I saw.

The guy you quoted insinuated the same thing by "not placing the blame entirely with streamers". When you piled on I could not longer resist. I'm sick of people I play the game with being dumped on by the people in these forums. People find a boogeyman in everything on these forums. Gaming audiences, especially those in the FTP segment of games who are typically much younger are going to be immature. You don't need to find a scapegoat for what happened, there is no one with any following for ESO that is insiting "riots" or any other disgruntlement.

I read Forbes regularly and the majority of their pieces are opinion articles written by paid contributors, not experts in a field and they're often wrong with their assumptions as well.

If you weren't talking about ESO streamers then I apologize for misunderstanding and jumping the gun, but if you weren't then I don't see how the point is relevant in this particular topic.

Apparently there is some disconnect here.

It is relevant because all of us here play this game, and many of us - yourself clearly included - have watched Twitch streaming at some point. Unfortunately a lot of people following a given stream do not realize what kind of audience they may come across from another, and then get surprised when this kind of nasty experience happens.

It is relevant because we need to be aware.

It is relevant because as people playing this game and interested in having a healthy community that we need to separate from this type of nonsense when it happens, and encourage instead real discourse about the concerns we have for the game in some other medium rather than continuing to engage in banter in a Twitch stream when it becomes obvious that it turned to nothing but hatespeech from some handful of a$$hats bent on contributing nothing but drama to something which was meant to be a positive way to inform this community of specific content issues.

Flyersfan314 wrote: »

Improve the game instead of BSing us with stupid art.

What about those who actually play this game (rather than another game or no game at all) for the main reason that it is visually gorgeous and rich in lore ?
Your comment is despiseful to the developers as well as all these people (that includes me).
It's always a great pleasure and very interesting and informative to see how the game has been conceived and developed concretely, both technically and artistically, and I'm very thankful to the devs for sharing that with us.

The BStting is on your side. If you don't care about art in a game you can still go play Pong or PacMan.

Ezareth wrote: »

People like you are the exact reason I avoid the general forums.

Still you're reading and posting here. Once again you're saying one thing and doing the opposite.

Ezareth wrote: »

Completely ignore everything said. Insert straw man argument that was not said. Knock it down and claim victory. Forum warrior logic 101. Congrats?
.../...
Your claim of my "Toxicity" is pathetic and shows you're being either deliberately obtuse or you just lack a firm grasp of English, I can't say which. I never spammed chat. I never insulted anyone at ZoS. I merely put the situation into perspective for you, just like @FENGRUSH tried to do yet you continue to try to label us and lump us in with people who have nothing in common with us.

Starting with personal attacks without tackling the subject, ending the same way...

Rest assured that while english is not my native language, I'm confident that my words reflect what I think without much linguistic bias.
Fengrush and yourself defend those rude and respectless kids in twitch chat, thus you side with them, which is in my opinion the same as throwing insults yourselves. The "perspective" doesn't change anything to that, since my perspective is that no opinion should be voiced that way, and your perspective is that some opinions well deserve to be voiced that way. That's what you have in common with those people and it's logical to label all of you the same on that occasion.

Ezareth wrote: »

I only brought up and rationalized the frustration felt by the majority of the players in PvP community to frame our perspective for those of you in carebear land. Go to the PvP forums, find me a postive poll created by anyone in the community there. You will find the trust in ZoS, the direction PvP is headed, and the general satisfaction of the majority of players there are all deep in the negative.

You do not know the majority of the players in PvP community. Really you don't.
I don't know the majority of them either therefore I try to be careful to not generalize abusively and jump to conclusions. However, the fact is that I know only very few PvP players who are not completely obsessed with their very own self-centered wishes and concerns, who behave politely and don't use intentionally negative words such as "carebears" as soon as they refer to PvErs.

Add this to the fact that people are more likely to post in a forum in general to express frustration rather than satisfaction, and here's your explanation as to why most posts in PvP section are negative. Nothing more than a bias.

Ezareth wrote: »

As far as statistics, those are easy to provide as I've been following them closely for a long time. IC has mudied the waters quite a bit due to the injection of PvE players into Cyrodiil but once the brief flood of players created by ESO going FTP died out Cyrodiil returned to its slow but steady decline. It was easy to get stats on by joining a new campaign and looking at your campaign alliance rank. What used to be 20,000 upon joining a new campaign ended up as low as 5K on even the most populous campaigns. The number of campaigns has continued to shrink (A couple were added for the PvE population and all are dead campaigns in NA as of this point) and in the less populous campaigns you'd up up in the 300-500 rank upon joining a campaign. After I averaged out all the campaigns I multiplied it by 3 (figuring equal numbers for each side despite DC having far less numbers than EP/AD) and I arrived at ~20K for the totality of NA players in 1.6. If the European servers are anything similar to the NA servers you can double that again and you have around ~40K PvP players worldwide (And I use that term loosely because earning a single AP point in a campaign hardly classifies you as a PvPer). This number back in 1.2 or 1.3 when I started tracking it this way was well over 100K in North America alone.

If you still don't believe me you can ask the leaders of any of the major PvP guilds out there just how well their membership rolls are doing. A PvP guild I'm in Alacrity which used to be the Premier PvP guild in NA has less than 1 quarter of its players signed in the past month. Less than half of that quarter have signed in in the past 3 days. That mirrors almost any major PvP guild that I know of. I've been talking to all the sides recently and there's nothing positive being said.

Thanks for posting detailed figures. However, they come from you and you alone, not from any independant source, and they cannot be verified. Since you also have a tendency to ignore or not identify bias, I'll take them with a grain of salt, if you don't mind.

And even if the loss in numbers is true, it doesn't necessarily mean that ZOS or ESO is failing. Having players quit is a normal process. You cannot expect every single player who's bought the game to play it for the next ten years. Furthermore, many players quit for reasons not related to the game.

A business model is not necessarily built around reaching the maximum players, it can very well be built around the maximum income on a stabilized level of players.

Ezareth wrote: »

As a customer we have a right to make the requirements for your patronage known. The existence of these forums are the proof of that statement.

Nothing could be more wrong. Again you refuse to make the difference between being the customer and being the boss.
These forums are here for allowing players to discuss and communicate with each other, and also with ZOS, in form of feedback and suggestions. But NEVER in form of requests, demands, threats or requirements. That's mentioned in the Code of Conduct.

Ezareth wrote: »

Our definition of abuse is our point of contention. I don't think making demands for your business is abuse, you evidently do. With that in mind, as I said " the success of a thriving company is often determined not by how they handle their satisfied customers, but how they address those customers who are not satisfied or even disgruntled." You'll find the core values of almost every fortune 500 company right now revolve around how they treat their customers, not how they pick and choose which customers they listen to.

Are you really that naive ? :-)
Of course if you go to the website of the 500 top world companies (and virtually any company of any size) you'll find a nice, PR-customized corporate description that will state with very eloquent wording how customer satisfaction and uniquely tailored servicing are at the very heart of their daily hard work and corporate culture.

In reality no company in this world can cater to everyone and everybody, customer or potential customer. Each of them will target a particular audience (which is called a "market segment") and concentrate their investments and tailor their products towards this audience. That's why a customer requesting a hamburger and fries in a 3-star seafood restaurant will not be listened to. Successful companies filter all the time their potential customers between the ones they're interested in keeping and... the rest.

While admittedly PvP is an important component of ESO and PvP players are obviously part of ESO's "market segment", they might as well not be the most important ones. Orsinium being chosen as the next DLC shows for instance that solo-players are a more important target at the moment. More than PvPers, more than endgame raiders.

To sum it up : the absence (so far) of a PvP arena or other features "requested" by PvPers is not a sign that ZOS is badly managed, nor that you are being "ignored", but simply that another player profile is more important at the moment business-wise. ZOS makes those decisions based on global and accurate player-profile-analysis made with data that we have no access to. Those priorities might or might not suit your (or my) taste but none of us can say wether they're good or bad and none of us is entitled to tell them how to run their business. Let alone with insulting words.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

To those that stream and have their own shows

Steaming has become so open to everyone now-a-days that people lose sight of the influence they can have on a lot of people and the fact that you can build your own fan base and indirectly use it for better or worse. Because in some of your fans minds, all you say is the truth, no matter what. And while most of what you say will be true and are great issues to bring up and discuss, you need to temper these issues and opinions you have with respect and in a manner that will not cause riotous behavior or your hate of a subject will blow through the rest of the ESO community like a mushroom cloud and will turn it toxic like we saw recently.

I'm not placing the blame entirely towards streamers, because every individual has a mind of their own. However, you can influence them more than you might think.

Unfortunately, that is rather the point for a lot of them and not something that will change just because a few people point this out.

What can change it is the rest of us not supporting these clowns who have nothing better to do in life than play a video game 24/7 and stream themselves doing it, asking for donations from viewers in order to further enable them to keep at it, etc.

A lot of these people literally do not have jobs, know little to nothing about game development, and are mainly only interested in staying at home, playing, and taking for a ride straight to the bank all the gullible people out there who feed off this nonsense themselves.

Game developers also don't do themselves or the rest of us any favors by cherry-picking a handful of these people for backend support in order to promote their titles. Whn the chickens come home to roost, and they always do, these are the results.

As is, there are a lot of people on twitch and other channels within You Tube all too willing to cause this kind of trouble. Stop "following" them, upvoting them, and certainly stop giving them money.

Theres so much in this thread - dont really have time to read and respond to all.

This post here though is pretty gross and off target.

Yeah I wish I was prescient enough to realize this earlier and hadn't wasted so much of my time debating the unreasonable. I only began posting because of Rich's presence but I see he wisely has long since fled this echo chamber.