AoE Cap - Lord Fengrush hits it on the head

FENGRUSH · October 2015

Muizer wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I guess the reference to 4 people being able to wipe 20 people at launch is being translated as "make this change and 4 people can do anything a 20 person group can do".

Isn't Rylana just saying that uncapping AoE won't return us to the situation as it existed at launch, when small groups could wipe large ones, because that would require undoing a whole lot of other changes that have gone into the game since then as well?

FENGRUSH wrote: »

The one thing Im missing a lot from those against caps is why they should be in place. Please let me know why this game needs AOE caps and why they need to stay as is today. Otherwise, stop coming at me instead of talking about the issue - I get enough of that every day in game.

The issue under discussion AFAIC is not whether AoE caps are justified, but what measures might help against the phenomenon of Zerging.

My view is that lifting AoE caps won't do much, and suggesting that it will is misleading and distacts from the actual issue.

Ok but why would it not do much? Do you know how many countless examples you can see just on my stream where that one change would make or break fights?

Its not the only mechanic to change, but it is hands down - the most relevant one. If you have a more relevant one, PLEASE put it forth. The only other thing in this game more impactful in that scenario is the smart healing system, and its been part of the game since its inception - its not going anywhere. We cant expect ZOS to change the game and it wouldnt work for console. AOE caps is something feasible to change that will have the most significant impact in a positive way. This isnt just for what Im doing, but this affects large v large groups and everyone in the game being able to do something more relevant in large battles.

And theres not 'a lot of changes to revert'. Theres really 1) AOE caps 2) dynamic ults. Only other things that really changed was ult costs, sets available, some of the bonuses they had - but these other factors were pretty simple. This game had very few sets at launch you could actually use, so we saw lots of 25% ult reduction sets with builds built around them.

Instead of reworking numbers, they literally tried to cap AOEs to limit ult gen, but didnt do the math on it. Eventually, static ult gen - which is problem #2 but more complicated than AOE caps to imbalanced large scale PvP.

Muizer · October 2015

About collision detection btw, fact that I mentioned it as missing does not mean I'd suggest putting it in like that. It would be computationally too intensive and hurt performance.

There are alternatives that might mimick the effect of crowding though. A speed modifier based on the number of people within a particular radius. Not computationally cheap either, but I suspect rather less demanding than AoE damage calculations for instance.

Come to think of it, with such a mechanism people at the outside of a clump would move faster than those at the center and the result is that any clump on the move would tend to disperse.

Easier to imagine the other way round: imagine a dispersed group trying to clump together. The closer they get to eachother, the slower the process would be.

I suppose the idea is too abstract to gain much traction in the community though. Perhaps the devs can do something with it.

BalgusFlinn · October 2015

Remove the cap for groups of 12 or under. Bring back a weaker form of dynamic ultimate regen, add a cooldown to "problem" ultimates, premabats doesn't sound fun.

Removing aoe caps would change the meta for sure, I think we'd see move heavy armor builds, and not much else would change.The zergs would still zerg. We just need an pvp arena. Then the people that want the small scale could get it.

I think scattershot could be a good zerg buster. Buff the damage a little and let it be set up quicker.

Or maybe allow certain abilities to ignore aoe cap. NOT steel tornado (how i love thee.)

FENGRUSH · October 2015

Huckdabuck wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I'd think someone from VE would be know better than to attribute my reasoning to "ego" related issues. Could probably have a good discussion on it.

When did you stop RP'in on the forums and speaking in 3rd person?

Only when talking about serious issues in the game. Its the kind of stuff that has made ESO lose a lot of good players to the game - its the kind of stuff that is relevant to making ESO grow and potentially bringing back old players.

Zheg · October 2015

I listened to a small portion of the 2.5 hour video because, 2.5 hours. Where the lack of perspective starts to become evident is when you insist that large groups stack together because of the cap. Not once in our ts do you hear people being told to stay by crown so they can get reduced aoe dmg. People are told to stay so barrier, heals, and rapid can reach them. We're highly mobile and push into risky areas, so being on the backline means you get separated and killed easier simply because by the time you've been cc'd and break it, the group has moved on and you're further away from heals and rapid. When an aoe bomb comes in, you tell players to mitigate the damage with block/dodge/mist, or by skirting it. You don't tell players to stack tighter just so the aoe cap kicks in, because then you die. And yet, the argument behind the thread is how groups take unfair advantage by stacking for the cap, when the reality is they stack for all of the other reasons. The godawful 60+ zergs are probably almost entirely made up of people that don't even know about the cap or how it works. If you want overstacking to be addressed, barrier, heals, and buffs need to be the focus, not a straw man.

Threads like this one present it as a magic bullet, even if the 2.5 hour long video doesn't. And when nothing is said to correct them, or to reinforce that it's only a small piece o the puzzle, then yes, it certainly appears like you fall into the magic bullet interpretation.

As for the ego reference, overlooking the bizarre cult following since that's partly out of your hands, when you guys say you won't run more than 1, 2, 4, 8 (or whatever) because you dont want to 'zerg', how else but egotistical is that supposed to come off? Whether directly or indirectly, comments from people on the panel over the past year have helped foster an incorrect notion that everything is a zerg, and the more numbers you have, even if reasonable, and intentional for how the game is designed, the less skill you have.

Bfish22090 · October 2015

You shouldn't be able to group with more than 12 players at once

FENGRUSH · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

I listened to a small portion of the 2.5 hour video because, 2.5 hours. Where the lack of perspective starts to become evident is when you insist that large groups stack together because of the cap. Not once in our ts do you hear people being told to stay by crown so they can get reduced aoe dmg. People are told to stay so barrier, heals, and rapid can reach them. We're highly mobile and push into risky areas, so being on the backline means you get separated and killed easier simply because by the time you've been cc'd and break it, the group has moved on and you're further away from heals and rapid. When an aoe bomb comes in, you tell players to mitigate the damage with block/dodge/mist, or by skirting it. You don't tell players to stack tighter just so the aoe cap kicks in, because then you die. And yet, the argument behind the thread is how groups take unfair advantage by stacking for the cap, when the reality is they stack for all of the other reasons. The godawful 60+ zergs are probably almost entirely made up of people that don't even know about the cap or how it works. If you want overstacking to be addressed, barrier, heals, and buffs need to be the focus, not a straw man.

Threads like this one present it as a magic bullet, even if the 2.5 hour long video doesn't. And when nothing is said to correct them, or to reinforce that it's only a small piece o the puzzle, then yes, it certainly appears like you fall into the magic bullet interpretation.

As for the ego reference, overlooking the bizarre cult following since that's partly out of your hands, when you guys say you won't run more than 1, 2, 4, 8 (or whatever) because you dont want to 'zerg', how else but egotistical is that supposed to come off? Whether directly or indirectly, comments from people on the panel over the past year have helped foster an incorrect notion that everything is a zerg, and the more numbers you have, even if reasonable, and intentional for how the game is designed, the less skill you have.

If youve seen more of me you will know Ive said plenty of times there are great players in the ball groups, some of the better players in the game. Id credit Koni as the best stam sorc aside from me - and frankly great all round player Ive fought since release, and he seems to enjoy being in those groups as well when he was playing.

AOE caps isnt a magic bullet, its the first and easiest step. Because reworking other skills is a matter of revisiting balance and seeing 'how it goes'. This is something that just DOES NOT HAPPEN and I go on and on about how it needs to. Small changes, test impact vs. desired goal, adjust if needed. On roughly a monthly basis. This is missed opportunities to balance, and instead were told it was tested by internal QA or something? AOE caps is not this though, it is not a matter of changing numbers. Its removing a mechanic in the game that doesnt belong.

As you said about 60 player groups is the same for many PVE/pug 20 man groups, they stack together for buffs, heals, survival. Like you said though, there are many in there that dont even know AOE caps exist - yet they are saving their life. If you think I want this change so I can go cruise through and wipe haxus on the norm, it is not that. I think this will make general PVP better, because Ive played it. Ive been able to ambush smaller pieces of larger groups and been able to kill them rather than see caps bail them out, watch them regroup with a mass and literally have *no hope* of engaging it.

As I have stated before, this patch is in the best form for AOE caps to be removed. Burst has been lowered by a lot, now is the time to be scared of this the least. Other balance issues should continuously be evaluated, but not at the same time. Make a change, feel it out, and adjust. This is how ongoing balance is done. AOE caps = first step.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

But the possiblity to beat a Zerg with a few Player is not the solution to avoid zergs.
Also cap barrier to 6 Targets is not a good solution, it will cause Problems to smaler Groups to take a Keep if they have to pass a breach with oil over it.

removing the cap will cause other Problems as it solve some.

The Meta right now from bombzergs on Eu for a full raid is.

20 Magicka Templar with Battswarm and Prox Det, and overheal anything.
Rest of the ppls Slot Steeltornado,

while the cap is mitigating some dmg for them, it does also for us.

even if you remove the cap, it will not solve the Problem with 20 battswarming overhealing Templars because they dont care.

a other solution for zergs would be a massive aoe Stun with a Root over it without any Cap.

Do we really see 20 bat swarming overhealing Templars that often? I don't know about you, but Templar isn't what pings off on my kill counter fast, and its not because they are harder to kill. No, the reason Templar is the slowest mission to complete is that there just aren't as many of them out there, and besides you generally don't need 20 Templars to do the healer job - That would be a waste of DPS. I'd also like to add that many Templars are not the heal spec. There are quite a few of us who seek to play the defunct Templar Tank role, but have moved on to DPS because ZoS sent us on that path with their changes. I'll grant magicka dps is the same as a Healer often times, but Stamina DPS is by no means a 'Healer' Role. I think you're oversimplifying there with regard to Templar, and I guess I find myself lately wanting to Defend the class, because honestly Templar has needed some quality love by ZoS for a long time. Its like ZoS just doesn't know what to do with the class. I noticed you did say it was on the EU server, so perhaps I'm just seeing different battles than you. On the US though I see a lot more Nightblades and Sorcs, which are really strong this season (and weren't pushovers in TU either). I find both classes a lot easier to play in PvP, and have done so for quite some time.

In regards to the mitigation of fighting alongside your team mates, there is an actual logic to this, and I assumed it had something to do with promoting a 'Phalanx' type formation. I personally think if they're going to do this though it would be nice if it were built around players in that group having a sword and shield. I think most people who have read my posts know at this point that I'm a proponent of tanking, no matter what class you are. I love the notion that a true tank (someone who actually wears a shield and invests in health) can benefit his team mates by merit of helping block in formation. I think collision would help in this regard, but I don't know if its feasible for their servers to handle collision, and of course the Goons might show up and abuse it too (Which is why I've suggested a proper shove mechanic). I personally think that the aoe damage mitigation should only apply if other players are within a certain proximity to players carrying sword and shield, and it should be capped to a certain number of players (3 perhaps?). Between the nerfs to block, and the design of the Guard skill I don't really see anything existing along these lines right now, perhaps they should consider a better system.

The whole issue of Magicka/Stamina as an attribute getting to Double-Dip both on mitigation as well as damage needs to be looked at as well. Health needs to enhance the Tank role better than the other two stats, and if ZoS could go that route, players would have to make a real choice about where to point their points. I've written on the topic in many places, but here's a thread I've been running a while on the matter:

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/211441/a-suggestion-towards-balance-between-health-magicka-and-stamina#latest

SturgeHammer · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

The godawful 60+ zergs are probably almost entirely made up of people that don't even know about the cap or how it works.

This is actually very true, and I consider this to be the primary reason, above all others, for the removal of the cap. The majority of players are not reading these forums, not watching streams, or doing anything to learn about what is going on behind the scenes of the combat system. The AOE cap is an invisible system to casual players. Those players assume their AOE abilities are doing the damage that the tool tip tells them it does, unaware that anything other than resistances could cause it to be less, or that anything other than their own resistances could be causing them to take less damage. To me this is poor design, strictly because players should be able to trust the only information they are exposed to in game. ESO should have uncapped AOE, and the power of AOEs should only be balanced by turning the "knobs" (damage, duration, cost, cast time, range, and resistances) that players can actually observe.

dantator · October 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Fengrush, I agree that zerg busting should be a thing. A 5-10 man group should have a reasonable chance of getting kills, in some cases many kills on much larger groups.

I have started leaning towards the removal but I have a major reservation.

Imagine a non aoe capped Haxus, Vehemence, GoS, KHole or a similar sub-raid sized coordinated group. a 12-16 man solid group that can already bust a 40+ man zergball. Now remove the AoE caps. What have you just created? You literally just made a high damage small-medium man bomb group completely unbeatable, and at the same time even if those groups meet up vs each other, its a damage war, whoever has the most DPS would then win every fight. Forget healing and movement, boom boom kapow.

There are only two guilds in the game right now that on even numbers footing even gives GoS a challenge (and no I am not claiming we are the best, I am simply stating the current state of the game for us) and that is VE (DC) and Rage(AD). This is generally speaking of course, and there are other smaller groups and conglomerates like Khole and Tertiary Meat that if they had up to 15-20 guys probably would be able to take us on fairly well.

My point in this is that besides those named, the only time we ever lose a fight, is when we are outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1 or even more. But we SHOULD lose those fights, or at least barely eke out a win via superior strategy and movement.

If you removed AoE caps, those 50-60 man zergballs that are REQUIRED to beat us, would be completely useless. What you would see is basically the top six or seven 12-20 man organized groups basically rendering the entire rest of the population null and just slamming each other with as much damage as they can stack.

Now imagine your four man squad running into one of those 16 man high DPS groups. You might think four people would bust them, but the reality is youre going to be running 4 equal footing into 16 equal footing in a game where burst DPS has been nerfed so hard for PvP that youre basically ensuring the death of smallman. Its already in a bad enough state. This potentially makes it actually worse, considering the truly organized groups already out there.

The real issue in this game is how damage stacking benefits by force multiplication. Why have one prox det when you can have 10 all at once. Nothing will survive that. Only takes 10. Thats not a very large group.

ZOS also needs to bring back healing debuff to at least 50% and make meatbags debuff stack again. In 1.5 and lower the best way to kill a zerg ball group was to meat bag them constantly and eventually they would die. The point of removing AOE caps and bringing back dynamic ulti regen is to give smaller groups a higher possibility to kill bigger groups. Back when DiE used to run small man groups we took on big groups like GoS, Lothar's group, etc. We fought GoS with our 8 man group when we were defending my last Emperor keep. We constantly farmed Lothar's and slywolf's groups with a 8 man group in 1.5 and we rarely lost to them.

It was still possible to do the same in 1.6 but it was way harder in comparison to 1.5 and lower. Our Divines group consisted mainly of 8-12 people (majority of the fights we were outnumbered) but when we had 16 people in a group we had moments where we farmed a pop lock red zerg in chillrend (sucks I wasn't recording

). All I got to say is that it was tough being a smaller group when majority of the guilds ran 16+ in 1.6.

Joy_Division · October 2015

@Zheg

Intended goal: Lessen the effectiveness and artificial advantages people get for stacking on crown or by just happen to be in close proximity to more than 6 people. Note: not a "silver bullet" fix.

Why removing the cap meets the goal; It is a fact that a raid of 24 that stacks on crown derives at least 50% damage mitigation to 75% of its members to enemy AoEs. It is my belief that organized raids enjoy a virtual monopoly of this advantage, and it is a significant one. It takes organization and coordination for a large group of players to effectively and consistently to move their group as one and take advantage of this free mitigation.

Right now, when we farm the reds at Chalman mine or the yellows on Alessia Bridge, it is we who are deriving the benefits of free damage reduction, whereas our disorganized opponents are rarely the beneficiaries. Take it from someone who was on the "other" side for over a year, who bravely set out with those PUGs to face the like of No Mercy, Havoc, Alacrity, Vehemence, IR, Decibal, etc.: I have rarely benefited from an AOE cap. Do you actually see what happens when a pain train moves toward the PUGs? The PUGs, who are not stacked together as it is, try to move out of the way and disperse. Here's another perspective. When you're all jumping around in that ball, I throw my spear shards and hit every single one ... 16 take negligible damage. That is grossly unfair. The disparity absolutely sucks. That is not fun. At all. I have been on both side of that pain train to know the difference, most of that experience is trying to compete against them. If I am fighting a pain train, somewhere about 75% of the time I am hit by an AoE, I'm taking full damage. In a pain train, that number goes down to 25%. It certainly would be interesting to see just how these guilds would respond if they were subjected to the same treatment as the very PUGs they run over night after night.

If we remove AoE caps, these organized groups will be subjected to much more damage than they have been taking whereas the amount of increased damage they inflict to these PUG mobs will be marginal. The disorganized PUG mobs are probably still going to get wiped precisely because they are disorganized, but you have no idea how frustrating it is to empty a full bar of mana spamming AoE damage, get run over and not have a single kill. I understand there are barriers and healers and purgers, but 75% percent of your raid is enjoying free 50% damage mitigation, why are we compounding the barrier/healer/purging problem? It is grossly unfair that I do not get 50% damage reduction to 75% of the steel tornadoes you fire at me. I don't think this disparity is being appreciated.

Here are the ways removing the cap can go wrong - I question why this question is privileged over "Here are the ways removing the cap can go right" considering the undesirable status quo. But I digress. To take the two you raised:

The "Rylana" scenario: organized guilds become pure glass cannon AoE death machines. They are already AoE death machines to the PUGs and small groups they murder. Only they would feel the sting of a glass cannon meta. Why are they afforded such special consideration?

Seriously, how is that any different than right now? How is Yonkit going to squeeze more weapon damage? Will magic builds otherwise not jump on the new Julianos set? Is it that they are going to be more effective? Against whom? The PUGs they massacre are already taking practically full damage. Fengrush's group of 4 already has zero protection against AoEs. The only sector of this game that will consistently feel a major effect of AoE cap removal are the Haxus, Vehemences, GoS, Rages, etc. Now, why should I care that these guilds now all of a sudden have to cope with the *** that I have had to deal with for over a year? Because the zergball Vs. zergball meta, which is already stale (stack on crown, spin to win, pop barrier) is somehow worth preserving? Sorry, I find it difficult to envision how the AoE cap can go wrong here. The Rylana scenario sounds very paternal to me, that somehow the AoE cap is protecting me from these organized zergballs. It doesn't. It protects them a lot more than it does me.

The "tanky" scenario: Why can't guilds do this right now and even be more unkillable because of the free damage reduction?

Why is it taking longer to kill your pain train now that 75% of them no longer enjoy 50% extra damage mitigation? Why would a guild run 24 tanks and not have enough DPS to defeat opponents and take keeps? Why is a bad thing that guilds might adopt specialist and diverse roles such as tank and DPS instead of running 24 carbon copies of the same build? Why can't we get rid of the stupid 50% battle spirit if defense is too strong? Why would nobody devise an effective counter to a tanky zerg? If 40k+ health or something stupid, go full tank, still run tight, and laugh off the small group trying to kill them is a nightmare scenario, why are we not running this tonight as is it would be even more effective? What it seems like you are saying is that these organized guilds are restraining themselves from running this build because the AoE cap provides enough artificial protection to not bother.

I do not believe either of your two scenarios will play out. These are the two ways I can see things go wrong:

1. Some people will probably quit the game in frustration.

There is a vocal minority in the ESO community who believe that AoE caps are a good thing and reign in the power of AoE zergballs. Even though spin-to-win and prox det bombing Rekt everything right now, when this continues to be the case after AoE cap removal, people will interpret this as a fundamental change and leave in frustration. There is also the possibility guilds like Vehemence, GoS, Rage, Haxus might get frustrated that stacking on crown no longer provides the sort of power it once did and lament not being able to kill "PUGs, casuals, bads," or whatever derogatory term they choose to use. Happens every time ZoS institutes a change that undermine what is a comfortable established practice. My old GM for TSYM quit the game when ZoS made changes to barrier stacking and people discovered how strong damage shields were that completely undercut his strategy. How many people quit the game over the 50% battle nerf because supposedly "ZoS catered the game to casuals"?

Here are ways to prevent or mitigate that.

Recognize that people are also likely to return to the game. Perhaps a larger number since the available data suggests AoE cap advocates are the minority.
Reign in those AoE that are too good (steel tornado, prox det), reform those AoEs that are terrible (wall of elements, volley, etc.) to provide a greater and more equitable diversification of the ones we do use.
Ensure the single target abilities that are not the OP spammables like wrecking blow, surprise attack, etc., are effective so that people who use them actually have success. DoTs in particular are terrible

Another way things can go wrong:

2. In areas where stacking is inevitable, such as a castle breech of flag, people are going to die quicker than they had been.

To be honest, I'm not sure this is totally a bad thing. Castle breeches are *not* contested any more because even the less experienced guilds have figure out that if you pop barrier and rapid maneuvers, attackers will always get to one of the corner towers unless they are stealth bombed in one of those side rooms (and even then the breech is still not contested). Same thing with inner keep posterns; defensive strategies now typically allow the attackers to get in rather than try to keep them out. This to me is a sign that the organization + defensive measures in the game are too strong as it is and AoE caps just exacerbate this. As far as those zergball who stack on crown in the middle of an open field and get themselves wiped, I have zero sympathy. That's a L2Adapt issue. The only instance where I am leery are castle flags because neither side has much of a choice but stack. IMHO this is what the barrier and healing springs, very strong skills, are for. Attackers have options available to them - they typically have the intitiatve. Outnumbered defenders would almost certainly have to make a stand at the breech, and this would be easier for them to do without an AOE cap. This is, naturally, just guesswork. We don't know how the meta would play out

Here are ways to prevent or mitigate that.

ZoS keeps saying they intend to bring back forward camps with a rez radius effect. Having them available will certainly help alleviate the frustration of dying quickly in these scenarios.
I personally feel there are already ways to mitigate this. Barrier and retreating maneuvers are ridiculously strong and I don't think organized guilds are even large numbers of disorganized PUGs would be stopped from getting in through breeches. The meta for this has been discovered and is very effective.
The only instance I am really concerned are those fights between the two flags inside a keep. People are going to die faster than they were because barriers are not readily available. In particular, outnumbered and unorganized defenders are going to have a tough time. Castle guards have to have to be buffed to legit VR16. I also think a fully upgraded keep should also have an NPC "general" of sorts. You know how there is a mechanic in the game to limit AoE damage (e.g. blade cloak)? Figure out ways to enable that mechanic in Keeps. The "General" could project an aura. An alliance war skill could have a stationary ground effect like circle of protection that gives defenders protection against AoEs. My point here is that the AoE cap can be replicated for limited tactical use where it is legitimately needed rather than being in place always when it is not needed

Again, looking to improve the game rather than devise some panacea to solve the zerg problem is one fell stroke.

I see the AoE cap as a fundamental issue to this problem. At the end of the day, myself and those brave PUGs or those Fengrush sized groups who go out and try to fight these stack-on-crown guilds are suffering from an artificial disadvantage. The organized guilds are always granted free mitigation, the Fengrush sized groups never, and the PUG mobs perhaps sometimes but to a much lesser extent. This is not a level playing field and I am dubious of the claims made by members of these guilds - who without question are the largest beneficiaries of an AOE cap - that those caps in place to protect people like me or Fengrush. Is it possible that those who have run in organized raids for so long, are only considering the perspective they have the most experience it, i.e., how the removal of an AoE cap will adversely affect the speed in which stack-on-crown raids die rather than what actually happens to those PUGs or small groups that get Rekt by them? It's these zergs, blobs, organized pain trains, precisely the groups that many believe have too much relative power, that derives the most benefit from AoE caps.

Ishammael · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

<snip>

@Joy_Division All of these things. Great post!

Artjuh90 · October 2015

Funny to see only commenting on the zerg but there are no zergs -> somthing is off zerg are big group right? xD

rfennell_ESO · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Reduce Barrier to 6 targets. Boom, done.

I'd go so far as to say capping alliance war skills that currently affect all allies to 6 (or some other number) would change things immensely. Far more than mucking with the aoe cap would.

Many haven't run in an actually properly organized "zerg ball" or smaller group that has it's dedicated barriers, purges and retreating maneuvers. It's beyond over powered, it's broken.

I'd go further and force los and decrease the range on heals (not all of them, but the ones being spammed mindlessly).

It wouldn't stop large organized groups from forming, but it would even the footing. They would not be invulnerable and able to move as one so easily and so quickly unless they really diminish their options by stacking more of the alliance war skills to make up for the loss. If they want invulnerable mode and want to run 24 with 16 people running barriers... so be it, it diminishes their ability to ulti-dump. If they want everyone moving super fast and ignoring all snares and roots, they will need to dedicate more people to retreating. If they want to be able to stand in oils being dumped on their head, they will have to dedicate a ridiculous amount of healers and purges to it.

This would also reinforce smaller groups place in pvp.

The nature of cyrondil and keep taking will gaurentee that the large groups still exist. That's never going to change. But the serious advantage they have can be largely mitigated without ever even touching the aoe cap.

Huckdabuck · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Makes compelling counters

This is gonna be a light hearted cheap shot..............if they remove the caps then you're going to die even quicker than you were the other night in raid!

More serious now.........I honestly don't care either way....keep the caps/remove the caps....adapt and overcome.....I know the group we play in will.......it always has. I will just caution everyone with the age old saying of "be careful what you wish for".

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

I think team mitigation is good if the mechanic for it is reasonable. Example: Guard Skill that ACTUAL tanks can use to protect the team. If tanking as a mechanic could work properly, offering protection for nearby friends up to a reasonable limit, I think that would be good for the game. Free mitigation 'just cause' never made sense, but I do like the idea of team based mitigations (like Barrier). If your opposing team has more buffs, weapons, and skills at its disposal I do think it should have an advantage, and I've been on the receiving end of zergs many a time. What's good for the goose is good for the gander here. I just think the issue is a game system one, and I think as a whole the game designers need to really rethink tanking on a whole number of levels.

Sureshawt · October 2015

Removing AoE caps without retooling the mechanic will just result in AoE as the go to skill in the game. We already experienced this at one point and AoE trains are still regularly used now even with the AoE caps. If you simply remove the cap why use anything but AoEs? As they are now they do damage equivalent to single target skills but hit more players(including cloak/stealth) without any targeting needed.

Making an AoE a blob buster is a good idea but it needs to penalized when it doesn't hit a large blob. It needs to scale in a way that does less damage to a few players but does much more if it hits a large blob.

If AoE caps are removed without retooling the mechanic we are going to be left with nothing but bomb groups running around spamming AoE heals, shields, and damage. When two opposing bomb groups collide whoever has the most numbers will win as it's just a matter of math.

Nivzruo_ESO · October 2015

AoE is the real problem... remove AoE from the game it's a tool for bad players anyways.

Sureshawt · October 2015

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

AoE is the real problem... remove AoE from the game it's a tool for bad players anyways.

Funny you said this because after pondering everything I read in this thread as well as what I wrote I realized the common denominator of each problem was AoEs in some form or fashion whether shield, heals or dps.

The best and easiest fix for this entire mess is to remove AoEs completely with the exception of siege and be done with it. You are right, AoEs are fundamentally a lazy and skilless mechanic for bad players.

manny254 · October 2015

Sureshawt wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

AoE is the real problem... remove AoE from the game it's a tool for bad players anyways.

Funny you said this because after pondering everything I read as well as what I wrote I realized the common denominator of each problem was AoEs in some form or fashion whether shield, heals or dps.

The best and easiest fix for this entire mess is to remove AoEs completely with the exception of siege and be done with it. You are right, AoEs are fundamentally a lazy and skilless mechanic for bad players.

Yes remove AoE. Then lets all sit back and watch as it become impossible for smaller groups to have any hope of doing anything in this game.

Artjuh90 · October 2015

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

AoE is the real problem... remove AoE from the game it's a tool for bad players anyways.

this is so true.
if you want skillfull pvp just make all aoe in pvp at least 1/2 smaller with aoe cap. cause the damage you do with aoe vs single target abilty's is still x amount of people hit in LARGE area (-50% on every player after the 6th) more then single target abilty's so you still do alot more damage. This will not result in the so hard called for dueling but for blasting aoe spells and healing

Ishammael · October 2015

Sureshawt wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

AoE is the real problem... remove AoE from the game it's a tool for bad players anyways.

Funny you said this because after pondering everything I read in this thread as well as what I wrote I realized the common denominator of each problem was AoEs in some form or fashion whether shield, heals or dps.

The best and easiest fix for this entire mess is to remove AoEs completely with the exception of siege and be done with it. You are right, AoEs are fundamentally a lazy and skilless mechanic for bad players.

You need to think a little harder about this viewpoint.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

Bear in mind if you kill AOE you will also really mess with the balance for dungeon content as well. Also, certain class abilities for mitigation are heavily reliant on aoe effects to be useful, those would need reconsideration as well (Some already do).

Sureshawt · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

AoE is the real problem... remove AoE from the game it's a tool for bad players anyways.

Funny you said this because after pondering everything I read in this thread as well as what I wrote I realized the common denominator of each problem was AoEs in some form or fashion whether shield, heals or dps.

The best and easiest fix for this entire mess is to remove AoEs completely with the exception of siege and be done with it. You are right, AoEs are fundamentally a lazy and skilless mechanic for bad players.

You need to think a little harder about this viewpoint.

Don't really need to as I've experienced what this mechanic has done to this game as well as others particularly when it becomes the go to meta.

Everyone running around in zerg blobs pressing their AoE buttons. No need to target as all you need to do is stick together while running your train into any opposition and spam your AoEs....boring...lazy...skilless....stupid.

Muizer · October 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

And theres not 'a lot of changes to revert'. Theres really 1) AOE caps 2) dynamic ults. Only other things that really changed was ult costs, sets available, some of the bonuses they had - but these other factors were pretty simple. This game had very few sets at launch you could actually use, so we saw lots of 25% ult reduction sets with builds built around them.

Instead of reworking numbers, they literally tried to cap AOEs to limit ult gen, but didnt do the math on it. Eventually, static ult gen - which is problem #2 but more complicated than AOE caps to imbalanced large scale PvP.

There was a time when players with very particular builds and playstyles were able to string together Ults while fending off (or feeding off) groups of attackers. I am not surprised ZoS put a stop to that and doing so has certainly contributed to greater build variety, which IMHO is a good thing. So let's forget about going back to that, shall we?

Which btw is one of the problems of focusing on the AoE cap: If you want to reward good play, why on earth would you make AoE more important again? It's counter productive. You'd be tempting people who have developed game styles and builds that require skill to swap that for AoE DPS builds.

maxjapank · October 2015

dantator wrote: »

I don't disagree that siege should be viable -- I simply think that siege as THE anti-zerg weapon should be a thing. I want to use the 12 buttons on my bars, no left-click every three seconds.

I'm not sure if you meant "should be a thing" or "shouldn't be a thing". Sorry. But to reiterate, I know that some players don't enjoy using siege. But right now, there is almost no point using siege against ball groups and players. And I'd like to see this changed. The whole feeling of fighting for a keep with siege raining down is just epic.

Players should worry about siege hitting from the outer towers. If the enemy heads to the top of the keep, they should worry about siege placed up there. Frankly speaking, siege just gets overrun by blobs because they don't really hurt. That, combined with weak NPCs as well, has just made using siege mean almost nothing.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

maxjapank wrote: »

dantator wrote: »

I don't disagree that siege should be viable -- I simply think that siege as THE anti-zerg weapon should be a thing. I want to use the 12 buttons on my bars, no left-click every three seconds.

I'm not sure if you meant "should be a thing" or "shouldn't be a thing". Sorry. But to reiterate, I know that some players don't enjoy using siege. But right now, there is almost no point using siege against ball groups and players. And I'd like to see this changed. The whole feeling of fighting for a keep with siege raining down is just epic.

Players should worry about siege hitting from the outer towers. If the enemy heads to the top of the keep, they should worry about siege placed up there. Frankly speaking, siege just gets overrun by blobs because they don't really hurt. That, combined with weak NPCs as well, has just made using siege mean almost nothing.

Well for starters, siege should not burn down automatically at rest as fast as they do.

MisterBigglesworth · October 2015

When I think about the implications of removing AOE caps (beyond the obvious benefit of a single clever player wiping out an unsuspecting zergball)... I can't help but assume it will ultimately just become a 4-man group of steel tornado spammers trying to wipe 24-man zergball, but getting destroyed themselves from 12 steel tornados from the zergball all going off at once.

The problem, in my view, is the fact that AOEs are instant and do not diminish in effectiveness based on the number of players casting them. In other words: larger group always win because they inherently do more damage.

The zergballs will always be able to do more single-target damage.
There's no solution for that problem... but we can fix the AOE problem...

First off, take every AOE in the game and remove any UP FRONT damage it does. Turn them all into debuffs or dots instead.
Make these debuff/dot AOEs affect an unlimited number of targets. No hard caps. No soft caps. No dimishing returns.
Have only 6 of these dots/debuffs in the game. You would be able to access these 6 dots/debuffs through various means (weapon/armor/class skills) but it would still be the same affect regardless (in much the same way Major Defile or Minor Maim can be obtained by various means)
With these 6 dots/debuffs applied at once it should be possible to completely wipe out an unlimited number of targets within a matter of seconds.
Finally (and this is the part that removes the advantage for very large groups adopting this tactic) make the dots and debuffs overwrite eachother. That way a 40-man zerg is still only capable of applying 6 dots/debuffs in total, the same amount of AOE that a 6-man group can output. Better yet, if a coordinated 4-man group plans accordingly and each of them picks 2 of the abilities to put on his bar, they can be just as effective at wiping the zerg!
It would not be recommended for 3 players or less to have simultaneous access to all 6 abilities, however, due to certain class/morph/damage type combinations being inefficent or synergizing poorly. This system is meant to reward coordination and planning between 4 players, it's not there to make a single player the king of 1vX.

Lava_Croft · October 2015

Lovely video, but it should be renamed to 'We are small scale ESO' just to make your agenda clear.

Large scale ESO needs the most attention, since that's where it starts. Once the large scale combat is working correctly, it will trickle down to small scale combat.

twistedmonk · October 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Lovely video, but it should be renamed to 'We are small scale ESO' just to make your agenda clear.

Large scale ESO needs the most attention, since that's where it starts. Once the large scale combat is working correctly, it will trickle down to small scale combat.

We are ESO Gankers is more accurate lolz.

but yeah, in Cyrodiil, they need to fix the large scale system, add more objectives, fix the lag (my ping goes from 50 normal to 200+ in cyrodiil , or 500+ during bigger fights (40+)