AoE Cap - Lord Fengrush hits it on the head

Zheg · October 2015

aco5712 wrote: »

i really dont understand why your so afraid to remove them? Its been so long with aoe caps and the zergs are just getting bigger and bigger and harder to kill because of it and performance has hardly improved. Why not try something different? You might even like it, you dont know. Ulti gen isnt dynamic so dont give me the perma bats DKs of old reason.

I'm not afraid of removing them, because we'll just adapt like every patch - I just realize that this won't be a magic solution like people claim it will be. TONS of changes need to be made to pvp, but that's the point, many changes need to be made on multiple fronts. Having the youtubers sell it like it will be a magic fix, and then for their beliebers to make a thread on the forums reiterating it as magic fix serves no one any good. I keep reiterating my reasoning why it's not going to be such a great fix, no one seems to be able provide a reason why my concerns are unwarranted, and everyone keeps posting like this is the one-shoe-fits-all fix for pvp. It's a little ridiculous. Thoughts of the consequences need to be taken into account when sweeping changes are made to the game - ZOS has already shown us what happens when they aren't. And yet most people posting in here don't seem to actually want to think about them and just say, "if I do A and remove the aoe cap, then B happens and... oh wait, fengrush said A needs to happen so there won't be a B - I don't have to worry! YAY no more zergs tralala". SO many people seem to think this one change will stop every single zerg, and the people that should know better aren't telling them otherwise.

maxjapank · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

RE: siege as an anti-zerg tool.
F*k siege, seriously. Everybody f*king hates siege. Siege is boring, unoriginal, and no-skill.

I like siege. And think it should hit hard and be feared. Part of the fun of Cyrodiil is being able to take and defend keeps with siege. Cyrodiil is not a battleground where 10 v 10 happens. It's not arena. It's about taking and defending keeps. Currently, siege is only being used to take down walls in a matter of minutes. And the blob goes in and takes the flags. That's boring.

Siege should matter more. It should hurt. And each different kind of siege should be viable.

Frawr · October 2015

Some good points in here.

So, to improve pvp we need:

- removal of AOE caps
- player collision detection in cyrodil
- potentially require more active healing such as force targeting friendly to heal them. Not sure about healing springs.

maxjapank · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Prox Det needs to go. Should never have been added.

Agree with you completely here.

Ishammael · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can not believe there is actually a debate about this. To all you AOE cap advocates. We have seen your "solution" in place for a year and a half and it doesn't work. You had your chance. You were and are wrong. Step aside gracefully.

There is only one possible reservation and that was brought up by @Rylana. It does take about 40 pugs in a disorganized blob to have a chance at taking out a coordinated raid. If you lift caps, I can understand the fear that since now those 40 will be taking full damage and the smaller 16-20 organized raids might be unbeatable.

But, I do not think that is how things will happen because:
These disorganized mobs are *not* benefiting from the AoE cap very much precisely because of the fact they are disorganized. They do not stack on crown; in fact they tend to disperse when focused, thus leaving the poor brave souls or those suckers still playing a DK to get steamrolled without having AoE cap protection.

When I play alone, I hardly *ever* derive the benefit of an AoE cap damage mitigation. I am almost *always* competing against it whenever I run into Rage or Vehemence or these very groups that you fear will be made more powerful. That disparity is more than absurd, that is ***. I absolutely cannot fathom the logic that somehow that cap is reigning in the power of these raids and making it more "fair" for me. No it is not. It is doing precisely the opposite. The only scenario where I would derive the same advantage of these stack on crown groups is if I sought out to ball together with other allies, which is precisely the sort of play we supposedly want to discourage, not to mention very unreliable given the tendency for Pugs to disperse.

When I raid, I am almost *always* benefiting from AoE cap mitigation. It is so important for survival there are mods out solely dedicated to making it easy to stack on crown. This isn't new. Here is the defining strategy as articulated from my old PvP guildmaster back in June 2014: "Get your ass to the crown, stack inside of my character model, and burn everything you have." The guilds you fear will in fact be losing what is in essence a monopoly on the AoE cap advantage, because the disorganized mobs lack the cohesion and smaller groups lack the numbers to similarly take advantage.

In sum, the benefits of removing AoE caps for offensive abilities by the stack of crown raids will be less than the current benefits that they alone derive for AoE caps. The only times they will see an appreciable boost to their steel tornadoes and prox dets is when they go against another stack on crown raid. Maybe one will actually be thinking of ways so as to spread out to ensure that only their opponents take all that damage.

If I turn out to be wrong, I do not care. Call me out on it. It is clear as day the current state of affairs with the AoE encourages the very type of play that we are trying to do away with and is a nightmare to compete against. The status quo absolutely sucks.

Reduce Barrier to 6 targets. Boom, done.

@Joy_Division is right. The argument is prove-ably over. AoE caps need to go.

AoE caps needed to go last year. The fear of an uncapped VE or RAGE or Haxus is unfounded -- the required amount of output dmg to wipe them will be reduced, dramatically. Their success is both tied to their skill as a group, positioning as a group, and their ability to utilize the AoE dmg reduction to their benefit. The 40+ Zerg mobs should be quivering in fear for uncapped AoE: they destroy PvP, destroy performance, make people rage-quit campaigns. Keep takes should be more than stack on crown and flip flags. Players should be spreading into the courtyard, taking towers, keeping high ground, blocking the breach. Now its just siege --> stack --> flip.

RE: siege as an anti-zerg tool.
F*k siege, seriously. Everybody f*king hates siege. Siege is boring, unoriginal, and no-skill.

And would that hold true if VE/RAGE/Haxus experiment and realize with the new meta you can run 40k+ health or something stupid, go full tank, still run tight, and laugh off the small group trying to kill them? Or that with that much survivability, even more people can go lay down extra fire siege and make it pretty much impossible for smaller numbers to win? Yeah, sorry, the argument is not prove-ably over until you can provide sound reasoning as to why that (or something equal to it) won't occur and completely negate the intention of removing the aoe cap.

You are not making sense. Every person beyond six gets 50% dmg reduction. This is more than you get if you stack armor to 32k because it cannot be penetrated. If AoE caps are removed, this damage reduction goes away. Thus dramatically lowering damage required.

I also suggested that Barrier needs a huge nerf.

aco5712 · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

i really dont understand why your so afraid to remove them? Its been so long with aoe caps and the zergs are just getting bigger and bigger and harder to kill because of it and performance has hardly improved. Why not try something different? You might even like it, you dont know. Ulti gen isnt dynamic so dont give me the perma bats DKs of old reason.

I'm not afraid of removing them, because we'll just adapt like every patch - I just realize that this won't be a magic solution like people claim it will be. TONS of changes need to be made to pvp, but that's the point, many changes need to be made on multiple fronts. Having the youtubers sell it like it will be a magic fix, and then for their beliebers to make a thread on the forums reiterating it as magic fix serves no one any good. I keep reiterating my reasoning why it's not going to be such a great fix, no one seems to be able provide a reason why my concerns are unwarranted, and everyone keeps posting like this is the one-shoe-fits-all fix for pvp. It's a little ridiculous.

this has been a solution proposed by players since they capped talons and stuff back near launch. Its not a magic fix but its a fix in the right direction. Force them to spread because their entire raid can get pinned down by a DK's talons or a NBs soul tether or one streak. You need to punish the players for stacking and not encourage it. Im even down for them to keep the mitigation but do it 100/80/65 or something. 100/50/25 is just ridiculous.

Ishammael · October 2015

maxjapank wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

RE: siege as an anti-zerg tool.
F*k siege, seriously. Everybody f*king hates siege. Siege is boring, unoriginal, and no-skill.

I like siege. And think it should hit hard and be feared. Part of the fun of Cyrodiil is being able to take and defend keeps with siege. Cyrodiil is not a battleground where 10 v 10 happens. It's not arena. It's about taking and defending keeps. Currently, siege is only being used to take down walls in a matter of minutes. And the blob goes in and takes the flags. That's boring.

Siege should matter more. It should hurt. And each different kind of siege should be viable.

I don't disagree that siege should be viable -- I simply think that siege as THE anti-zerg weapon should be a thing. I want to use the 12 buttons on my bars, no left-click every three seconds.

BuggeX · October 2015

But the possiblity to beat a Zerg with a few Player is not the solution to avoid zergs.
Also cap barrier to 6 Targets is not a good solution, it will cause Problems to smaler Groups to take a Keep if they have to pass a breach with oil over it.

removing the cap will cause other Problems as it solve some.

The Meta right now from bombzergs on Eu for a full raid is.

20 Magicka Templar with Battswarm and Prox Det, and overheal anything.
Rest of the ppls Slot Steeltornado,

while the cap is mitigating some dmg for them, it does also for us.

even if you remove the cap, it will not solve the Problem with 20 battswarming overhealing Templars because they dont care.

a other solution for zergs would be a massive aoe Stun with a Root over it without any Cap.

aco5712 · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can not believe there is actually a debate about this. To all you AOE cap advocates. We have seen your "solution" in place for a year and a half and it doesn't work. You had your chance. You were and are wrong. Step aside gracefully.

There is only one possible reservation and that was brought up by @Rylana. It does take about 40 pugs in a disorganized blob to have a chance at taking out a coordinated raid. If you lift caps, I can understand the fear that since now those 40 will be taking full damage and the smaller 16-20 organized raids might be unbeatable.

But, I do not think that is how things will happen because:
These disorganized mobs are *not* benefiting from the AoE cap very much precisely because of the fact they are disorganized. They do not stack on crown; in fact they tend to disperse when focused, thus leaving the poor brave souls or those suckers still playing a DK to get steamrolled without having AoE cap protection.

When I play alone, I hardly *ever* derive the benefit of an AoE cap damage mitigation. I am almost *always* competing against it whenever I run into Rage or Vehemence or these very groups that you fear will be made more powerful. That disparity is more than absurd, that is ***. I absolutely cannot fathom the logic that somehow that cap is reigning in the power of these raids and making it more "fair" for me. No it is not. It is doing precisely the opposite. The only scenario where I would derive the same advantage of these stack on crown groups is if I sought out to ball together with other allies, which is precisely the sort of play we supposedly want to discourage, not to mention very unreliable given the tendency for Pugs to disperse.

When I raid, I am almost *always* benefiting from AoE cap mitigation. It is so important for survival there are mods out solely dedicated to making it easy to stack on crown. This isn't new. Here is the defining strategy as articulated from my old PvP guildmaster back in June 2014: "Get your ass to the crown, stack inside of my character model, and burn everything you have." The guilds you fear will in fact be losing what is in essence a monopoly on the AoE cap advantage, because the disorganized mobs lack the cohesion and smaller groups lack the numbers to similarly take advantage.

In sum, the benefits of removing AoE caps for offensive abilities by the stack of crown raids will be less than the current benefits that they alone derive for AoE caps. The only times they will see an appreciable boost to their steel tornadoes and prox dets is when they go against another stack on crown raid. Maybe one will actually be thinking of ways so as to spread out to ensure that only their opponents take all that damage.

If I turn out to be wrong, I do not care. Call me out on it. It is clear as day the current state of affairs with the AoE encourages the very type of play that we are trying to do away with and is a nightmare to compete against. The status quo absolutely sucks.

Reduce Barrier to 6 targets. Boom, done.

@Joy_Division is right. The argument is prove-ably over. AoE caps need to go.

AoE caps needed to go last year. The fear of an uncapped VE or RAGE or Haxus is unfounded -- the required amount of output dmg to wipe them will be reduced, dramatically. Their success is both tied to their skill as a group, positioning as a group, and their ability to utilize the AoE dmg reduction to their benefit. The 40+ Zerg mobs should be quivering in fear for uncapped AoE: they destroy PvP, destroy performance, make people rage-quit campaigns. Keep takes should be more than stack on crown and flip flags. Players should be spreading into the courtyard, taking towers, keeping high ground, blocking the breach. Now its just siege --> stack --> flip.

RE: siege as an anti-zerg tool.
F*k siege, seriously. Everybody f*king hates siege. Siege is boring, unoriginal, and no-skill.

And would that hold true if VE/RAGE/Haxus experiment and realize with the new meta you can run 40k+ health or something stupid, go full tank, still run tight, and laugh off the small group trying to kill them? Or that with that much survivability, even more people can go lay down extra fire siege and make it pretty much impossible for smaller numbers to win? Yeah, sorry, the argument is not prove-ably over until you can provide sound reasoning as to why that (or something equal to it) won't occur and completely negate the intention of removing the aoe cap.

You are not making sense. Every person beyond six gets 50% dmg reduction. This is more than you get if you stack armor to 32k because it cannot be penetrated. If AoE caps are removed, this damage reduction goes away. Thus dramatically lowering damage required.

I also suggested that Barrier needs a huge nerf.

furthering this, you do realize how little damage you have if you stack so highly into health and tank gear? You wouldnt be able to kill anything.

Darnathian · October 2015

Artjuh90 wrote: »

@ Darnathian isnt that the only way a small group should be able to beat a larger group to catch them offguard.
and the idia of friendly fire is great. maybe not 100% damage of friendly fire, this would make melee builds useless but like 20-50%

I thought more about what I wrote after. You are right. It would. Maybe introduce the need for better scouting outside friendly keeps. I retract what I said. It might be better overall to have people on their toes all the time.

Ishammael · October 2015

aco5712 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can not believe there is actually a debate about this. To all you AOE cap advocates. We have seen your "solution" in place for a year and a half and it doesn't work. You had your chance. You were and are wrong. Step aside gracefully.

There is only one possible reservation and that was brought up by @Rylana. It does take about 40 pugs in a disorganized blob to have a chance at taking out a coordinated raid. If you lift caps, I can understand the fear that since now those 40 will be taking full damage and the smaller 16-20 organized raids might be unbeatable.

But, I do not think that is how things will happen because:
These disorganized mobs are *not* benefiting from the AoE cap very much precisely because of the fact they are disorganized. They do not stack on crown; in fact they tend to disperse when focused, thus leaving the poor brave souls or those suckers still playing a DK to get steamrolled without having AoE cap protection.

When I play alone, I hardly *ever* derive the benefit of an AoE cap damage mitigation. I am almost *always* competing against it whenever I run into Rage or Vehemence or these very groups that you fear will be made more powerful. That disparity is more than absurd, that is ***. I absolutely cannot fathom the logic that somehow that cap is reigning in the power of these raids and making it more "fair" for me. No it is not. It is doing precisely the opposite. The only scenario where I would derive the same advantage of these stack on crown groups is if I sought out to ball together with other allies, which is precisely the sort of play we supposedly want to discourage, not to mention very unreliable given the tendency for Pugs to disperse.

When I raid, I am almost *always* benefiting from AoE cap mitigation. It is so important for survival there are mods out solely dedicated to making it easy to stack on crown. This isn't new. Here is the defining strategy as articulated from my old PvP guildmaster back in June 2014: "Get your ass to the crown, stack inside of my character model, and burn everything you have." The guilds you fear will in fact be losing what is in essence a monopoly on the AoE cap advantage, because the disorganized mobs lack the cohesion and smaller groups lack the numbers to similarly take advantage.

In sum, the benefits of removing AoE caps for offensive abilities by the stack of crown raids will be less than the current benefits that they alone derive for AoE caps. The only times they will see an appreciable boost to their steel tornadoes and prox dets is when they go against another stack on crown raid. Maybe one will actually be thinking of ways so as to spread out to ensure that only their opponents take all that damage.

If I turn out to be wrong, I do not care. Call me out on it. It is clear as day the current state of affairs with the AoE encourages the very type of play that we are trying to do away with and is a nightmare to compete against. The status quo absolutely sucks.

Reduce Barrier to 6 targets. Boom, done.

@Joy_Division is right. The argument is prove-ably over. AoE caps need to go.

AoE caps needed to go last year. The fear of an uncapped VE or RAGE or Haxus is unfounded -- the required amount of output dmg to wipe them will be reduced, dramatically. Their success is both tied to their skill as a group, positioning as a group, and their ability to utilize the AoE dmg reduction to their benefit. The 40+ Zerg mobs should be quivering in fear for uncapped AoE: they destroy PvP, destroy performance, make people rage-quit campaigns. Keep takes should be more than stack on crown and flip flags. Players should be spreading into the courtyard, taking towers, keeping high ground, blocking the breach. Now its just siege --> stack --> flip.

RE: siege as an anti-zerg tool.
F*k siege, seriously. Everybody f*king hates siege. Siege is boring, unoriginal, and no-skill.

And would that hold true if VE/RAGE/Haxus experiment and realize with the new meta you can run 40k+ health or something stupid, go full tank, still run tight, and laugh off the small group trying to kill them? Or that with that much survivability, even more people can go lay down extra fire siege and make it pretty much impossible for smaller numbers to win? Yeah, sorry, the argument is not prove-ably over until you can provide sound reasoning as to why that (or something equal to it) won't occur and completely negate the intention of removing the aoe cap.

You are not making sense. Every person beyond six gets 50% dmg reduction. This is more than you get if you stack armor to 32k because it cannot be penetrated. If AoE caps are removed, this damage reduction goes away. Thus dramatically lowering damage required.

I also suggested that Barrier needs a huge nerf.

furthering this, you do realize how little damage you have if you stack so highly into health and tank gear? You wouldnt be able to kill anything.

Exactly. Right now, I can buy myself 50% dmg reduction -- in light armor -- by asking my buddies to stand on my butt. Stupid.

Darnathian · October 2015

aco5712 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

i really dont understand why your so afraid to remove them? Its been so long with aoe caps and the zergs are just getting bigger and bigger and harder to kill because of it and performance has hardly improved. Why not try something different? You might even like it, you dont know. Ulti gen isnt dynamic so dont give me the perma bats DKs of old reason.

I'm not afraid of removing them, because we'll just adapt like every patch - I just realize that this won't be a magic solution like people claim it will be. TONS of changes need to be made to pvp, but that's the point, many changes need to be made on multiple fronts. Having the youtubers sell it like it will be a magic fix, and then for their beliebers to make a thread on the forums reiterating it as magic fix serves no one any good. I keep reiterating my reasoning why it's not going to be such a great fix, no one seems to be able provide a reason why my concerns are unwarranted, and everyone keeps posting like this is the one-shoe-fits-all fix for pvp. It's a little ridiculous.

this has been a solution proposed by players since they capped talons and stuff back near launch. Its not a magic fix but its a fix in the right direction. Force them to spread because their entire raid can get pinned down by a DK's talons or a NBs soul tether or one streak. You need to punish the players for stacking and not encourage it. Im even down for them to keep the mitigation but do it 100/80/65 or something. 100/50/25 is just ridiculous.

Yes!!!! Unerf talons and give DKs a purpose!!

aco5712 · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can not believe there is actually a debate about this. To all you AOE cap advocates. We have seen your "solution" in place for a year and a half and it doesn't work. You had your chance. You were and are wrong. Step aside gracefully.

There is only one possible reservation and that was brought up by @Rylana. It does take about 40 pugs in a disorganized blob to have a chance at taking out a coordinated raid. If you lift caps, I can understand the fear that since now those 40 will be taking full damage and the smaller 16-20 organized raids might be unbeatable.

But, I do not think that is how things will happen because:
These disorganized mobs are *not* benefiting from the AoE cap very much precisely because of the fact they are disorganized. They do not stack on crown; in fact they tend to disperse when focused, thus leaving the poor brave souls or those suckers still playing a DK to get steamrolled without having AoE cap protection.

When I play alone, I hardly *ever* derive the benefit of an AoE cap damage mitigation. I am almost *always* competing against it whenever I run into Rage or Vehemence or these very groups that you fear will be made more powerful. That disparity is more than absurd, that is ***. I absolutely cannot fathom the logic that somehow that cap is reigning in the power of these raids and making it more "fair" for me. No it is not. It is doing precisely the opposite. The only scenario where I would derive the same advantage of these stack on crown groups is if I sought out to ball together with other allies, which is precisely the sort of play we supposedly want to discourage, not to mention very unreliable given the tendency for Pugs to disperse.

When I raid, I am almost *always* benefiting from AoE cap mitigation. It is so important for survival there are mods out solely dedicated to making it easy to stack on crown. This isn't new. Here is the defining strategy as articulated from my old PvP guildmaster back in June 2014: "Get your ass to the crown, stack inside of my character model, and burn everything you have." The guilds you fear will in fact be losing what is in essence a monopoly on the AoE cap advantage, because the disorganized mobs lack the cohesion and smaller groups lack the numbers to similarly take advantage.

In sum, the benefits of removing AoE caps for offensive abilities by the stack of crown raids will be less than the current benefits that they alone derive for AoE caps. The only times they will see an appreciable boost to their steel tornadoes and prox dets is when they go against another stack on crown raid. Maybe one will actually be thinking of ways so as to spread out to ensure that only their opponents take all that damage.

If I turn out to be wrong, I do not care. Call me out on it. It is clear as day the current state of affairs with the AoE encourages the very type of play that we are trying to do away with and is a nightmare to compete against. The status quo absolutely sucks.

Reduce Barrier to 6 targets. Boom, done.

@Joy_Division is right. The argument is prove-ably over. AoE caps need to go.

AoE caps needed to go last year. The fear of an uncapped VE or RAGE or Haxus is unfounded -- the required amount of output dmg to wipe them will be reduced, dramatically. Their success is both tied to their skill as a group, positioning as a group, and their ability to utilize the AoE dmg reduction to their benefit. The 40+ Zerg mobs should be quivering in fear for uncapped AoE: they destroy PvP, destroy performance, make people rage-quit campaigns. Keep takes should be more than stack on crown and flip flags. Players should be spreading into the courtyard, taking towers, keeping high ground, blocking the breach. Now its just siege --> stack --> flip.

RE: siege as an anti-zerg tool.
F*k siege, seriously. Everybody f*king hates siege. Siege is boring, unoriginal, and no-skill.

And would that hold true if VE/RAGE/Haxus experiment and realize with the new meta you can run 40k+ health or something stupid, go full tank, still run tight, and laugh off the small group trying to kill them? Or that with that much survivability, even more people can go lay down extra fire siege and make it pretty much impossible for smaller numbers to win? Yeah, sorry, the argument is not prove-ably over until you can provide sound reasoning as to why that (or something equal to it) won't occur and completely negate the intention of removing the aoe cap.

You are not making sense. Every person beyond six gets 50% dmg reduction. This is more than you get if you stack armor to 32k because it cannot be penetrated. If AoE caps are removed, this damage reduction goes away. Thus dramatically lowering damage required.

I also suggested that Barrier needs a huge nerf.

furthering this, you do realize how little damage you have if you stack so highly into health and tank gear? You wouldnt be able to kill anything.

Exactly. Right now, I can buy myself 50% dmg reduction -- in light armor -- by asking my buddies to stand on my butt. Stupid.

75% if you got 30

aco5712 · October 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

i really dont understand why your so afraid to remove them? Its been so long with aoe caps and the zergs are just getting bigger and bigger and harder to kill because of it and performance has hardly improved. Why not try something different? You might even like it, you dont know. Ulti gen isnt dynamic so dont give me the perma bats DKs of old reason.

I'm not afraid of removing them, because we'll just adapt like every patch - I just realize that this won't be a magic solution like people claim it will be. TONS of changes need to be made to pvp, but that's the point, many changes need to be made on multiple fronts. Having the youtubers sell it like it will be a magic fix, and then for their beliebers to make a thread on the forums reiterating it as magic fix serves no one any good. I keep reiterating my reasoning why it's not going to be such a great fix, no one seems to be able provide a reason why my concerns are unwarranted, and everyone keeps posting like this is the one-shoe-fits-all fix for pvp. It's a little ridiculous.

this has been a solution proposed by players since they capped talons and stuff back near launch. Its not a magic fix but its a fix in the right direction. Force them to spread because their entire raid can get pinned down by a DK's talons or a NBs soul tether or one streak. You need to punish the players for stacking and not encourage it. Im even down for them to keep the mitigation but do it 100/80/65 or something. 100/50/25 is just ridiculous.

Yes!!!! Unerf talons and give DKs a purpose!!

tank/support builds will become super super useful lol

Zheg · October 2015

aco5712 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

You are not making sense. Every person beyond six gets 50% dmg reduction. This is more than you get if you stack armor to 32k because it cannot be penetrated. If AoE caps are removed, this damage reduction goes away. Thus dramatically lowering damage required.

I also suggested that Barrier needs a huge nerf.

furthering this, you do realize how little damage you have if you stack so highly into health and tank gear? You wouldnt be able to kill anything.

The aoe cap removal was proposed as a way for a small group to beat a much larger group. I gave a few scenarios of why that's poorly thought out because of the many ways players can adapt. One of them being, they could run tanky, making it impossible for the smaller group to kill them - the smaller group has to be full glass cannon to do anywhere near enough damage now (even though it still won't be enough), and then they get wiped when the larger group sneezes on them - even with tanks. Or, the smaller group goes tankier so they don't get sneezed on, but now have an even harder time killing the larger group.

The group that goes tanky can just start to rely more on siege to do their damage since being in 7/7 light armor or 7/7 heavy armor has no impact on that damage. It's just a shift in the meta, the zerg will still be there, the original goal behind removing the aoe cap has been lost, so what's the point? You slightly tweaked the meta, but it's overall the exact same one? Congrats.

Furthermore, when there are 40-60 people, they are NOT all in a 5-8 meter radius. They simply aren't. You'll get a good number of them in your ult, sure, but you aren't going to get all of them, and now your group of 10-15 is taking extra damage from the removed cap and wipes anyway.

ZOS is not good at planning out their changes, they try to fix something and break something else. So when the playerbase is trying to push feedback on ZOS, it should NOT be "go remove aoe cap please" - it should be "remove the aoe cap, but do this, this, and that in addition because otherwise Z, X, and Y will happen and make the change either pointless, or make the meta even worse". Yet, for all 6 pages of this thread, barely anyone is actually thinking 2 steps ahead to what the meta looks like when aoe caps are removed. If we're trying to get good pvp feedback for ZOS, make it good feedback ffs and think things through so there's a good battleplan and not just a single change made with zero foresight given into the next crapstorm that's created. I'm tired of bouncing from one major problem in pvp to another. If you're going to propose a fix to a problem, spend the 5 minutes it takes to think about what else could go wrong with your proposed fix. It's really not so much to ask for. I'm tired of seeing a change go through because some people thought it was a good idea at the time, gave no thought into how it could backfire, and/or had the mentality of "let's just try it and see what happens." I'm done experimenting with sweeping changes to the meta made on a whim. If you want a change to improve pvp, great, provide a list of how your change might actually make things worse or not work at all so contingencies can be built in to account for the many, many ways things backfire.

I've already repeated at least twice pretty much every point I've made, and still haven't seen good reasoning to refute them. Look a few posts up at Fraw's post:

Some good points in here.

So, to improve pvp we need:

- removal of AOE caps
- player collision detection in cyrodil
- potentially require more active healing such as force targeting friendly to heal them. Not sure about healing springs.

After 6 pages of this, he's completely ignored every single cautionary point raised and summarized only what the youtube egos asked for (though I highly agree with the third point). So, if this is all that players take away from both sides of the argument, what's the point of even having one?

BuggeX · October 2015

Why dont we try a different Way.

Why dont we redesigne the Keeps. More Flags, More Rooms, More Stairs, more anything.
Rethink the caping Mechanik.
A BombZerg will never be able to turn a Keep if there are 4 Flags, up and down.

This will lead the Zerg to Split them up.

Well it will Need much Work to do, but imho it will be worth afterwards

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · October 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

Why dont we try a different Way.

Why dont we redesigne the Keeps. More Flags, More Rooms, More Stairs, more anything.
Rethink the caping Mechanik.
A BombZerg will never be able to turn a Keep if there are 4 Flags, up and down.

So you need even more people before you can attempt to assault a defended keep?^^

Jura23 · October 2015

It was really good video in general and I don't even think this was the best part even though it was really good what he said. Should have more views, much more!

Just somebody say Sypher he's talking too much sometimes. Sometimes I feel like he could say the same thing with 1/3 words, but he organized it, which is great.

BuggeX · October 2015

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Why dont we try a different Way.

Why dont we redesigne the Keeps. More Flags, More Rooms, More Stairs, more anything.
Rethink the caping Mechanik.
A BombZerg will never be able to turn a Keep if there are 4 Flags, up and down.

So you need even more people before you can attempt to assault a defended keep?^^

depens how it is done, if you make a Keep with 4 flagsto cap.
you will also Need somthing to split up a deffending Blob.

Zos spoke one time about more objektivs in Cyro.

Aslong nothing is done with the whole designe it stay the same.
Anybody leads to do the easiest and fasted way.
Siegen > Blobing > Barrier > Flag > Flag is right now the fasted and easiest way ti cap a keep

Frawr · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

You are not making sense. Every person beyond six gets 50% dmg reduction. This is more than you get if you stack armor to 32k because it cannot be penetrated. If AoE caps are removed, this damage reduction goes away. Thus dramatically lowering damage required.

I also suggested that Barrier needs a huge nerf.

furthering this, you do realize how little damage you have if you stack so highly into health and tank gear? You wouldnt be able to kill anything.

The aoe cap removal was proposed as a way for a small group to beat a much larger group. I gave a few scenarios of why that's poorly thought out because of the many ways players can adapt. One of them being, they could run tanky, making it impossible for the smaller group to kill them - the smaller group has to be full glass cannon to do anywhere near enough damage now (even though it still won't be enough), and then they get wiped when the larger group sneezes on them - even with tanks. Or, the smaller group goes tankier so they don't get sneezed on, but now have an even harder time killing the larger group.

The group that goes tanky can just start to rely more on siege to do their damage since being in 7/7 light armor or 7/7 heavy armor has no impact on that damage. It's just a shift in the meta, the zerg will still be there, the original goal behind removing the aoe cap has been lost, so what's the point? You slightly tweaked the meta, but it's overall the exact same one? Congrats.

Furthermore, when there are 40-60 people, they are NOT all in a 5-8 meter radius. They simply aren't. You'll get a good number of them in your ult, sure, but you aren't going to get all of them, and now your group of 10-15 is taking extra damage from the removed cap and wipes anyway.

ZOS is not good at planning out their changes, they try to fix something and break something else. So when the playerbase is trying to push feedback on ZOS, it should NOT be "go remove aoe cap please" - it should be "remove the aoe cap, but do this, this, and that in addition because otherwise Z, X, and Y will happen and make the change either pointless, or make the meta even worse". Yet, for all 6 pages of this thread, barely anyone is actually thinking 2 steps ahead to what the meta looks like when aoe caps are removed. If we're trying to get good pvp feedback for ZOS, make it good feedback ffs and think things through so there's a good battleplan and not just a single change made with zero foresight given into the next crapstorm that's created. I'm tired of bouncing from one major problem in pvp to another. If you're going to propose a fix to a problem, spend the 5 minutes it takes to think about what else could go wrong with your proposed fix. It's really not so much to ask for. I'm tired of seeing a change go through because some people thought it was a good idea at the time, gave no thought into how it could backfire, and/or had the mentality of "let's just try it and see what happens." I'm done experimenting with sweeping changes to the meta made on a whim. If you want a change to improve pvp, great, provide a list of how your change might actually make things worse or not work at all so contingencies can be built in to account for the many, many ways things backfire.

I've already repeated at least twice pretty much every point I've made, and still haven't seen good reasoning to refute them. Look a few posts up at Fraw's post:

Some good points in here.

So, to improve pvp we need:

- removal of AOE caps
- player collision detection in cyrodil
- potentially require more active healing such as force targeting friendly to heal them. Not sure about healing springs.

After 6 pages of this, he's completely ignored every single cautionary point raised and summarized only what the youtube egos asked for (though I highly agree with the third point). So, if this is all that players take away from both sides of the argument, what's the point of even having one? Go ahead and clamor for feedback because someone else proposed it and it sounded like a good idea. Take no heed of the various people raising points that indicate it's just today's straw-man.

Players in a zerg are protected by an artificial mechanic. Removing that mechanic will help to level the playing field. Small groups will not be artificially weakened vs large groups. Of course players will adapt. This is not a reason to avoid making a change.

None of your points are actually valid reasons for maintaining a cap on AOE abilities. Why do you think that the cap should be maintained?

Re my own post, 'ignoring everything said' what have I ignored exactly? I have reiterated what was said about caps and healing and also shown my support for collision spreading people and making 'stack on crown' harder.

Everything that you have written demonstrates a massive chip o your shoulder about those you tubers. They actually made some valid points.

I have seen plenty of criticism from you, what positive changes would you suggest to improve pvp?

Zheg · October 2015

Frawr wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

You are not making sense. Every person beyond six gets 50% dmg reduction. This is more than you get if you stack armor to 32k because it cannot be penetrated. If AoE caps are removed, this damage reduction goes away. Thus dramatically lowering damage required.

I also suggested that Barrier needs a huge nerf.

furthering this, you do realize how little damage you have if you stack so highly into health and tank gear? You wouldnt be able to kill anything.

The aoe cap removal was proposed as a way for a small group to beat a much larger group. I gave a few scenarios of why that's poorly thought out because of the many ways players can adapt. One of them being, they could run tanky, making it impossible for the smaller group to kill them - the smaller group has to be full glass cannon to do anywhere near enough damage now (even though it still won't be enough), and then they get wiped when the larger group sneezes on them - even with tanks. Or, the smaller group goes tankier so they don't get sneezed on, but now have an even harder time killing the larger group.

The group that goes tanky can just start to rely more on siege to do their damage since being in 7/7 light armor or 7/7 heavy armor has no impact on that damage. It's just a shift in the meta, the zerg will still be there, the original goal behind removing the aoe cap has been lost, so what's the point? You slightly tweaked the meta, but it's overall the exact same one? Congrats.

Furthermore, when there are 40-60 people, they are NOT all in a 5-8 meter radius. They simply aren't. You'll get a good number of them in your ult, sure, but you aren't going to get all of them, and now your group of 10-15 is taking extra damage from the removed cap and wipes anyway.

ZOS is not good at planning out their changes, they try to fix something and break something else. So when the playerbase is trying to push feedback on ZOS, it should NOT be "go remove aoe cap please" - it should be "remove the aoe cap, but do this, this, and that in addition because otherwise Z, X, and Y will happen and make the change either pointless, or make the meta even worse". Yet, for all 6 pages of this thread, barely anyone is actually thinking 2 steps ahead to what the meta looks like when aoe caps are removed. If we're trying to get good pvp feedback for ZOS, make it good feedback ffs and think things through so there's a good battleplan and not just a single change made with zero foresight given into the next crapstorm that's created. I'm tired of bouncing from one major problem in pvp to another. If you're going to propose a fix to a problem, spend the 5 minutes it takes to think about what else could go wrong with your proposed fix. It's really not so much to ask for. I'm tired of seeing a change go through because some people thought it was a good idea at the time, gave no thought into how it could backfire, and/or had the mentality of "let's just try it and see what happens." I'm done experimenting with sweeping changes to the meta made on a whim. If you want a change to improve pvp, great, provide a list of how your change might actually make things worse or not work at all so contingencies can be built in to account for the many, many ways things backfire.

I've already repeated at least twice pretty much every point I've made, and still haven't seen good reasoning to refute them. Look a few posts up at Fraw's post:

Some good points in here.

So, to improve pvp we need:

- removal of AOE caps
- player collision detection in cyrodil
- potentially require more active healing such as force targeting friendly to heal them. Not sure about healing springs.

After 6 pages of this, he's completely ignored every single cautionary point raised and summarized only what the youtube egos asked for (though I highly agree with the third point). So, if this is all that players take away from both sides of the argument, what's the point of even having one? Go ahead and clamor for feedback because someone else proposed it and it sounded like a good idea. Take no heed of the various people raising points that indicate it's just today's straw-man.

Players in a zerg are protected by an artificial mechanic. Removing that mechanic will help to level the playing field. Small groups will not be artificially weakened vs large groups. Of course players will adapt. This is not a reason to avoid making a change.

None of your points are actually valid reasons for maintaining a cap on AOE abilities. Why do you think that the cap should be maintained?

Re my own post, 'ignoring everything said' what have I ignored exactly? I have reiterated what was said about caps and healing and also shown my support for collision spreading people and making 'stack on crown' harder.

Everything that you have written demonstrates a massive chip o your shoulder about those you tubers. They actually made some valid points.

I have seen plenty of criticism from you, what positive changes would you suggest to improve pvp?

If you're alleging that because I disagree with the herd on this that I don't provide contructive criticism regarding pvp, you're welcome to click my name and read posts. I'm not going to laundry list all of the pvp improvements I've discussed elsewhere.

Not once have I proposed having aoe caps is a good thing, but I have asked people pushing for it's removal to provide a basic: here is the intended goal, why removing the cap meets the goal; here are the ways removing the cap can go wrong, here are ways to prevent them or mitigate them. Even when prodding people with entirely likely outcomes of how this change could backfire, they're ignored and people continue pushing for a change giving little thought to what else could happen. If you want to remove aoe caps, fine, but don't do it half baked and without having a plan to address or at least be AWARE of the ways it will inevitably backfire. ZOS won't do it for you unfortunately.

As for my chip, certainly. Don't propose something that's really for your benefit as something that will be an absolute guarantee improvement for the same regular pvpers you avoid ever grouping with - because as is evidenced here, some will blindly agree and then be sorely disappointed when removing the cap doesn't do everything it was advertised to do.

But whatever, enough beating the dead horse. I've made my points, whether or not people are willing to think critically about what the cap removal will actually do or don't do is on them.

Frawr · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

You are not making sense. Every person beyond six gets 50% dmg reduction. This is more than you get if you stack armor to 32k because it cannot be penetrated. If AoE caps are removed, this damage reduction goes away. Thus dramatically lowering damage required.

I also suggested that Barrier needs a huge nerf.

furthering this, you do realize how little damage you have if you stack so highly into health and tank gear? You wouldnt be able to kill anything.

The aoe cap removal was proposed as a way for a small group to beat a much larger group. I gave a few scenarios of why that's poorly thought out because of the many ways players can adapt. One of them being, they could run tanky, making it impossible for the smaller group to kill them - the smaller group has to be full glass cannon to do anywhere near enough damage now (even though it still won't be enough), and then they get wiped when the larger group sneezes on them - even with tanks. Or, the smaller group goes tankier so they don't get sneezed on, but now have an even harder time killing the larger group.

The group that goes tanky can just start to rely more on siege to do their damage since being in 7/7 light armor or 7/7 heavy armor has no impact on that damage. It's just a shift in the meta, the zerg will still be there, the original goal behind removing the aoe cap has been lost, so what's the point? You slightly tweaked the meta, but it's overall the exact same one? Congrats.

Furthermore, when there are 40-60 people, they are NOT all in a 5-8 meter radius. They simply aren't. You'll get a good number of them in your ult, sure, but you aren't going to get all of them, and now your group of 10-15 is taking extra damage from the removed cap and wipes anyway.

ZOS is not good at planning out their changes, they try to fix something and break something else. So when the playerbase is trying to push feedback on ZOS, it should NOT be "go remove aoe cap please" - it should be "remove the aoe cap, but do this, this, and that in addition because otherwise Z, X, and Y will happen and make the change either pointless, or make the meta even worse". Yet, for all 6 pages of this thread, barely anyone is actually thinking 2 steps ahead to what the meta looks like when aoe caps are removed. If we're trying to get good pvp feedback for ZOS, make it good feedback ffs and think things through so there's a good battleplan and not just a single change made with zero foresight given into the next crapstorm that's created. I'm tired of bouncing from one major problem in pvp to another. If you're going to propose a fix to a problem, spend the 5 minutes it takes to think about what else could go wrong with your proposed fix. It's really not so much to ask for. I'm tired of seeing a change go through because some people thought it was a good idea at the time, gave no thought into how it could backfire, and/or had the mentality of "let's just try it and see what happens." I'm done experimenting with sweeping changes to the meta made on a whim. If you want a change to improve pvp, great, provide a list of how your change might actually make things worse or not work at all so contingencies can be built in to account for the many, many ways things backfire.

I've already repeated at least twice pretty much every point I've made, and still haven't seen good reasoning to refute them. Look a few posts up at Fraw's post:

Some good points in here.

So, to improve pvp we need:

- removal of AOE caps
- player collision detection in cyrodil
- potentially require more active healing such as force targeting friendly to heal them. Not sure about healing springs.

After 6 pages of this, he's completely ignored every single cautionary point raised and summarized only what the youtube egos asked for (though I highly agree with the third point). So, if this is all that players take away from both sides of the argument, what's the point of even having one? Go ahead and clamor for feedback because someone else proposed it and it sounded like a good idea. Take no heed of the various people raising points that indicate it's just today's straw-man.

Players in a zerg are protected by an artificial mechanic. Removing that mechanic will help to level the playing field. Small groups will not be artificially weakened vs large groups. Of course players will adapt. This is not a reason to avoid making a change.

None of your points are actually valid reasons for maintaining a cap on AOE abilities. Why do you think that the cap should be maintained?

Re my own post, 'ignoring everything said' what have I ignored exactly? I have reiterated what was said about caps and healing and also shown my support for collision spreading people and making 'stack on crown' harder.

Everything that you have written demonstrates a massive chip o your shoulder about those you tubers. They actually made some valid points.

I have seen plenty of criticism from you, what positive changes would you suggest to improve pvp?

If you're alleging that because I disagree with the herd on this that I don't provide contructive criticism regarding pvp, you're welcome to click my name and read posts. I'm not going to laundry list all of the pvp improvements I've discussed elsewhere.

Not once have I proposed having aoe caps is a good thing, but I have asked people pushing for it's removal to provide a basic: here is the intended goal, why removing the cap meets the goal; here are the ways removing the cap can go wrong, here are ways to prevent them or mitigate them. Even when prodding people with entirely likely outcomes of how this change could backfire, they're ignored and people continue pushing for a change giving little thought to what else could happen. If you want to remove aoe caps, fine, but don't do it half baked and without having a plan to address or at least be AWARE of the ways it will inevitably backfire. ZOS won't do it for you unfortunately.

As for my chip, certainly. Don't propose something that's really for your benefit as something that will be an absolute guarantee improvement for the same regular pvpers you avoid ever grouping with - because as is evidenced here, some will blindly agree and then be sorely disappointed when removing the cap doesn't do everything it was advertised to do.

But whatever, enough beating the dead horse. I've made my points, whether or not people are willing to think critically about what the cap removal will actually do or don't do is on them.

A reason has been given for their removal; everyone taking the same damage. I think that this is a good thing. Do you agree or disagree?

Joy_Division · October 2015

Rylana wrote: »

No. In beta testing, especially the open beta the month before launch, the AoE cap had not yet been implemented.

Group strategies still used to this day were formed then. They never changed or diverted. When the AoE cap was dropped onto the community literally one week from launch, the weekend before early access, there was a community uproar thread over 200 pages in length (which was wiped when the beta boards were wiped) addressing the issue and potential to make an already existing problem worse.

As launch day hit and the same strats continued to be used all through 1.0 and 1.1 the AoE cap was mostly forgotten about as players focused more attention on broken skill lines and "cloth wearing vampires spamming standards bats and talons" than on the real problems already existing from beta.

On Wabbajack a blue zergball started to form that would lag things tremendously. The bombstack had already existed, but was now starting to become multiraid in size.

The problem became even larger on Dawnbreaker, and then Thornblade (especially thornblade) as intentionally lagging the server (a byproduct of mass calculations in blobbed groups spamming heals, yes heals, on themselves) became a common tactic to cause rollbacks.

Also around this time was the famous FPS drop, and other major exploitable bugs (caltrops, wall of elements) and the like. AoE caps again were forgotten about.

it was only when ZoS changes the caps to scale with size that people even started making a fuss about them again. They existed since launch yes, but the strats as to why groups blob had nothing to do with the caps. That was preexisting strat from beta due to heals and carried over strats from other games.

We would discover later the benefit those blobs had from the AoE caps, but this was after they were already doing it, and is not the cause of them doing it, even today.

Groups run tight to keep heals, barriers, purges, and damage stacked together. The whole AoE cap thing is just a strawman, though I am aware it has its point. I assure you those stacked bombgroups of today would still stack even without an AoE cap, and in fact would be much much more dangerous than they are now, especially to smaller groups over six in size.

This is not true with respect to AoE Caps.

Maybe the guilds you were willfully ignored the basic mechanics of the game when it formulated strategies and tactics, but the guild I was in (TSYM) was very mindful of how AoE caps affected gameplay.

Every night our GM would lecture us that the AOE damage we were doing was irrelevant if we did not stack on crown and hit the same target he was because our attacks were not hitting the same 6 players. Every night he would yell on TS to stack inside his character model otherwise we were exposing the raid to unnecessary damage that could be avoided. In our meetings the topic of AoE caps came up time and again.

They came up because they were always a contentious issue. Forgotten about? You are so wrong it's hard to trust any of your memories. Just because you like AoE caps, that doesn't mean most people hated them and continually told ZoS. Here is threads from May 2014- September 2014, a time period when you claim "AoE caps again were forgotten about":

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/122609/old-thread-remastered-aoe-cap-and-zergtrains-thoughts-to-date

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/130425/a-word-of-caution-on-aoe-caps/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/127083/remove-aoe-caps

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/122474/elder-wars-2-volume-3-the-perfect-aoe-cap-video/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/122292/aoe-caps-arent-the-reason-that-zerg-impulse-is-i-win

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/114912/so-zos-you-ready-to-admit-aoe-cap-has-been-a-complete-failure

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/130401/combat-team-aoe-caps-are-causing-desubs-what-is-going-to-be-done

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/125572/remove-aoe-caps

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/121096/elder-wars-2-volume-2-aoe-caps-are-a-problem

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/121962/comprehensive-list-of-pvp-issues-not-bugs-as-of-1-2-6

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/127407/zerg-trains-are-ruining-this-game-its-sad-sad

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1108962#Comment_1108962

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

Etc, Etc.

There have always been other reasons for guilds to stack up on top of each other, which is why stack on crown has been a thing forever. BUT, people have consistently pointed to AoE as to why this "strategy" was super effective and why the meta lead to stale gameplay and lagfests. From the very beginning. And right now. And will continue to do so in the future because ZoS is so stubborn not to listen to the vast majority of it community base that has consistently and overwhelming indicated in every poll on the subject that they would prefer a PvP with no AoE caps.

Your assurances that bomb groups would much more dangerous is pure speculation. Stop pretending you have some special insight into what would happen and everybody else who believes differently is wrong.

Rylana · October 2015

The majority of everyone else seems to be holding on to this ego fueled pipe dream of days long gone where they could wipe mystery zergs of 50 people with four or five. Whether glory seeking or just plain disingenuous, the game mechanics needed to pull that off havent existed AoE capped or not for over a year.

Classes were nerfed, ground oil was nerfed, ultimate was nerfed, damage itself was nerfed. The mechanics that enabled people in the past to do big things with small groups were removed. AoE cap has remained constant, therefore cannot be the reason or magic bullet to restore the days of glory. Youd have to revert everything to achieve the same goal, because the caps existed even when all the stuff that enabled a few to do crazy things existed.

It is not about liking or disliking something, it is a dose of reality. 1.2 has been gone for over 18 months. Its time to stop grasping at straws for a return to the days where the few harboring all of the secrets picked on the many that would blindly walk into ground oils and bats 100 times over. Which brings up another thing I mentioned in a TS to a few of you the other night, one of the saddest contributors to this games problems are based on the fact people were so secretive about exploits and broken mechanics early. A lot of this pipe dream nonsense of the old days was based around people using ridiculously OP or broken stuff no one else knew about at the time.

Fact is not many people dont know about the broken stuff anymore.

Now, you all wanna talk about something meaningful like AoE caps affecting server performance, then we might be on to something... but trying to get something changed for the purposes of stroking an ego because one feels entitled to killing 10x their numbers "just because" is rather silly.

Malmai · October 2015

Agreed ZOS hire this players!

Frawr · October 2015

Rylana wrote: »

The majority of everyone else seems to be holding on to this ego fueled pipe dream of days long gone where they could wipe mystery zergs of 50 people with four or five. Whether glory seeking or just plain disingenuous, the game mechanics needed to pull that off havent existed AoE capped or not for over a year.

Classes were nerfed, ground oil was nerfed, ultimate was nerfed, damage itself was nerfed. The mechanics that enabled people in the past to do big things with small groups were removed. AoE cap has remained constant, therefore cannot be the reason or magic bullet to restore the days of glory. Youd have to revert everything to achieve the same goal, because the caps existed even when all the stuff that enabled a few to do crazy things existed.

It is not about liking or disliking something, it is a dose of reality. 1.2 has been gone for over 18 months. Its time to stop grasping at straws for a return to the days where the few harboring all of the secrets picked on the many that would blindly walk into ground oils and bats 100 times over. Which brings up another thing I mentioned in a TS to a few of you the other night, one of the saddest contributors to this games problems are based on the fact people were so secretive about exploits and broken mechanics early. A lot of this pipe dream nonsense of the old days was based around people using ridiculously OP or broken stuff no one else knew about at the time.

Fact is not many people dont know about the broken stuff anymore.

Now, you all wanna talk about something meaningful like AoE caps affecting server performance, then we might be on to something... but trying to get something changed for the purposes of stroking an ego because one feels entitled to killing 10x their numbers "just because" is rather silly.

Removing the caps would remove artificial difference in mitigation in big groups vs small groups.

What is your view on this mitigation?

There have been PHDs written in this thread but the fact remains that removing the cap will mean that everyone will take the same damage.

I find that to be a good thing.

Ishammael · October 2015

Rylana wrote: »

The majority of everyone else seems to be holding on to this ego fueled pipe dream of days long gone where they could wipe mystery zergs of 50 people with four or five. Whether glory seeking or just plain disingenuous, the game mechanics needed to pull that off havent existed AoE capped or not for over a year.

Classes were nerfed, ground oil was nerfed, ultimate was nerfed, damage itself was nerfed. The mechanics that enabled people in the past to do big things with small groups were removed. AoE cap has remained constant, therefore cannot be the reason or magic bullet to restore the days of glory. Youd have to revert everything to achieve the same goal, because the caps existed even when all the stuff that enabled a few to do crazy things existed.

It is not about liking or disliking something, it is a dose of reality. 1.2 has been gone for over 18 months. Its time to stop grasping at straws for a return to the days where the few harboring all of the secrets picked on the many that would blindly walk into ground oils and bats 100 times over. Which brings up another thing I mentioned in a TS to a few of you the other night, one of the saddest contributors to this games problems are based on the fact people were so secretive about exploits and broken mechanics early. A lot of this pipe dream nonsense of the old days was based around people using ridiculously OP or broken stuff no one else knew about at the time.

Fact is not many people dont know about the broken stuff anymore.

Now, you all wanna talk about something meaningful like AoE caps affecting server performance, then we might be on to something... but trying to get something changed for the purposes of stroking an ego because one feels entitled to killing 10x their numbers "just because" is rather silly.

@Rylana -- you and I see eye-to-eye on many issues. Hiding game exploits is one you mention here -- players that should have been banned and have not. Issues that need hot fixes remained for months. Others we have discussed both in TS and elsewhere. We do not agree about AoE caps.

Because AoE caps have remained (relatively) constant for the last 18 months I think we have better empirical evidence about this than many other issues. The items you bring up (ground oils, siege in general, ultimates, etc) were at various stages uncapped -- hence their effectiveness at breaking big groups.

I know others will vehemently disagree, but I think the dynamic ult DK from the 1.5 era was also a huge zerg-busting tool. Stack on crown? OK I'll zerg dive and bats bats bats. Spread out? I'm f*ked.

Here are my overall suggestions:
1. Uncap AoE completely
2. Dynamic Ult
3. HP ratio back to 1.5:1:1
4. Barrier nerfed to 6 targets
5. Prox det scales from basically 0 dmg against 1 player to current dmg against 10+.

FENGRUSH · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

@FENGRUSH , since you chose to avoid the harder-to-argue points raised in the thread, I'll reiterate and summarize them for you.

Solely in regards to the aoe cap, a simple removal is not a simple solution, and you should avoid selling it to the general playerbase as such. If you remove the aoe cap, one of two things are most likely to occur:
Rylana has already pointed it out, but the 'zerg' could stack so heavily into aoe dps that it won't matter if people are extra squishy now and you're able to take out some of them, since the rest of them just wiped your rambo group from the sheer range that a modestly spread out prox det line + ults (due to greater numbers) can accomplish. The top pvp guilds will gain a significant advantage as they're most likely to be able to remain glass cannons, wipe people, and still survive. If nothing else, this will lead to more incentive to stealth bombing everything in sight, and would reduce the actual drawn out fights most people tend to enjoy. Not fun either way, and hardly a fix like you make it sound.

The opposite could occur, and the 'zerg' stacks so heavily into HP, resist, and mitigation that your rambo group can barely scratch them, but since they have the numbers, they can easily focus the small group down. What would be WORSE, is if the super tanky zerg realizes they can afford to do so while still running siege and doing plenty of dps. Siege wars are no fun, and players that take forever to kill are no fun - now imagine everyone doing it. Furthermore, with the way rezzing currently works and how many extra people run kag's hope for dps builds, once you kill a tanky player, they're back up in 1-2 seconds. To be honest, this is the option I'd see things leaning towards, and it sounds like absolutely awful pvp to me.

In neither of those two options do I see the average PVPer gaining a more enjoyable pvp experience, and while I think your ultimate goal is to be able to take out a group like haxus with 2-4 solely for ego reasons - I still don't see you being successful in those two scenarios. So what did you gain by removing the aoe cap that wasn't immediately replaced by an equal or greater problem?

The point I'm trying to make is that players adapt, and while you might think you have a magic bullet to pvp problems - as soon as you push in one direction, players adapt and push back in another direction. Moreover, someone that's talked about and played pvp as much as you should already know there aren't magic bullets to these problems, and that they need to be tackled on multiple fronts. That's not to say I haven't been frustrated with pvp for the past year and think things are hunky-dorey, but I'm not so delusional to think that a single (and highly impactful) change like removing the aoe cap will fix the problem/s.

Lastly, I'd remind you to be wary of echo chambers. As someone already pointed out, the people participating on the panel all play the same way, and all thrive on the attention from their streams/whatever. It's easy to become convinced your thoughts are the only solution when you predominantly talk to people that play the game the exact same way you do (and I'm certainly aware that I run the same risk in talking to people that predominantly play in guilds), and/or people that have some bizarre celebrity obsession and constantly tell you how great you are. For fun, I would refer to these people as Beliebers, and the panel as Justin Bieber. Sure, he can sing better than most people, but he's far from the best singer, has steadily progressed in egotism, and has lost touch with the reality of the world after having so many people tell him how wonderful he is. Sure, you guys can pvp better than most people, but you're far from the best pvpers in ESO, your egos are far bigger than they were a year ago, and you tend to play with the same < 3 players when you do play - so now you start to lose perspective.

I apologize for linking you to Justin Bieber, no man should ever have that done to them, but I also had great fun doing so, so I'm ok with it.

I'd think someone from VE would be know better than to attribute my reasoning to "ego" related issues. Could probably have a good discussion on it.

I hope to get someone from one of the larger groups on the podcast or something to talk more - as mentioned in this or the other thread Ive been talking in. Would be able to talk about these kind of worries.

Until then, please continue enjoying the 50% damage mitigation.

aco5712 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can not believe there is actually a debate about this. To all you AOE cap advocates. We have seen your "solution" in place for a year and a half and it doesn't work. You had your chance. You were and are wrong. Step aside gracefully.

There is only one possible reservation and that was brought up by @Rylana. It does take about 40 pugs in a disorganized blob to have a chance at taking out a coordinated raid. If you lift caps, I can understand the fear that since now those 40 will be taking full damage and the smaller 16-20 organized raids might be unbeatable.

But, I do not think that is how things will happen because:
These disorganized mobs are *not* benefiting from the AoE cap very much precisely because of the fact they are disorganized. They do not stack on crown; in fact they tend to disperse when focused, thus leaving the poor brave souls or those suckers still playing a DK to get steamrolled without having AoE cap protection.

When I play alone, I hardly *ever* derive the benefit of an AoE cap damage mitigation. I am almost *always* competing against it whenever I run into Rage or Vehemence or these very groups that you fear will be made more powerful. That disparity is more than absurd, that is ***. I absolutely cannot fathom the logic that somehow that cap is reigning in the power of these raids and making it more "fair" for me. No it is not. It is doing precisely the opposite. The only scenario where I would derive the same advantage of these stack on crown groups is if I sought out to ball together with other allies, which is precisely the sort of play we supposedly want to discourage, not to mention very unreliable given the tendency for Pugs to disperse.

When I raid, I am almost *always* benefiting from AoE cap mitigation. It is so important for survival there are mods out solely dedicated to making it easy to stack on crown. This isn't new. Here is the defining strategy as articulated from my old PvP guildmaster back in June 2014: "Get your ass to the crown, stack inside of my character model, and burn everything you have." The guilds you fear will in fact be losing what is in essence a monopoly on the AoE cap advantage, because the disorganized mobs lack the cohesion and smaller groups lack the numbers to similarly take advantage.

In sum, the benefits of removing AoE caps for offensive abilities by the stack of crown raids will be less than the current benefits that they alone derive for AoE caps. The only times they will see an appreciable boost to their steel tornadoes and prox dets is when they go against another stack on crown raid. Maybe one will actually be thinking of ways so as to spread out to ensure that only their opponents take all that damage.

If I turn out to be wrong, I do not care. Call me out on it. It is clear as day the current state of affairs with the AoE encourages the very type of play that we are trying to do away with and is a nightmare to compete against. The status quo absolutely sucks.

Reduce Barrier to 6 targets. Boom, done.

@Joy_Division is right. The argument is prove-ably over. AoE caps need to go.

AoE caps needed to go last year. The fear of an uncapped VE or RAGE or Haxus is unfounded -- the required amount of output dmg to wipe them will be reduced, dramatically. Their success is both tied to their skill as a group, positioning as a group, and their ability to utilize the AoE dmg reduction to their benefit. The 40+ Zerg mobs should be quivering in fear for uncapped AoE: they destroy PvP, destroy performance, make people rage-quit campaigns. Keep takes should be more than stack on crown and flip flags. Players should be spreading into the courtyard, taking towers, keeping high ground, blocking the breach. Now its just siege --> stack --> flip.

RE: siege as an anti-zerg tool.
F*k siege, seriously. Everybody f*king hates siege. Siege is boring, unoriginal, and no-skill.

And would that hold true if VE/RAGE/Haxus experiment and realize with the new meta you can run 40k+ health or something stupid, go full tank, still run tight, and laugh off the small group trying to kill them? Or that with that much survivability, even more people can go lay down extra fire siege and make it pretty much impossible for smaller numbers to win? Yeah, sorry, the argument is not prove-ably over until you can provide sound reasoning as to why that (or something equal to it) won't occur and completely negate the intention of removing the aoe cap.

i really dont understand why your so afraid to remove them? Its been so long with aoe caps and the zergs are just getting bigger and bigger and harder to kill because of it and performance has hardly improved. Why not try something different? You might even like it, you dont know. Ulti gen isnt dynamic so dont give me the perma bats DKs of old reason.

Some groups have built a meta for quite some time now around AOE caps and free damage mitigation. Even though its the most unwarranted damage mitigator in the game - itd be quite a change to suddenly not have it.

@Rylana Are you serious? We were just talking about this a bit in TS last night. Youre going to go out on the ego tip along with this guy on the reasons for removing AOE caps?

I guess the reference to 4 people being able to wipe 20 people at launch is being translated as "make this change and 4 people can do anything a 20 person group can do". It couldnt be farther from the truth. There are great guilds in this game and always have been. Could our 4 man group easily do this to Alacrity at launch? Absolutely not - but we were able to fight them and they were the first guild to make real good use of barrier as I recall. Once they were rotating those life became very difficult to engage them as a small group realistically.

To the VE guy blowing off the hook saying this is a magic bullet fix - it is not. I did not say it was either, so why you would interpret it as such is a joke. There are so many issues at play that need to be revisited in the game, and this is not to steer the game in a direction that my 4 man group can take out whatever it wants. If you interpreted my words in that way then that is on you. Im looking at mechanics and balance issues that have plagued this game for awhile, and none are so glaring as AOE caps. I suggested changes should be done slowly, that you approach balance in increments. Instead all suggestions are ignored, and generally large quarterly patches are added with 50-100+ balance changes along with some meta changes that give us a different meta to shift around, but the grand scheme of ball groups and their inherent strengths always remains.

Small group PvP has always suffered through the changes, if you are willfully ignorant to this, then youre not going to change with my reasoning. Some people will never disagree with AOE caps, because they either are comfortable with how things are, they are scared of how things could be, or they are simply arguing against it for the sake of argument using my position as a player for the sake of their explanations.

The one thing Im missing a lot from those against caps is why they should be in place. Please let me know why this game needs AOE caps and why they need to stay as is today. Otherwise, stop coming at me instead of talking about the issue - I get enough of that every day in game.

Muizer · October 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I guess the reference to 4 people being able to wipe 20 people at launch is being translated as "make this change and 4 people can do anything a 20 person group can do".

Isn't Rylana just saying that uncapping AoE won't return us to the situation as it existed at launch, when small groups could wipe large ones, because that would require undoing a whole lot of other changes that have gone into the game since then as well?

FENGRUSH wrote: »

The one thing Im missing a lot from those against caps is why they should be in place. Please let me know why this game needs AOE caps and why they need to stay as is today. Otherwise, stop coming at me instead of talking about the issue - I get enough of that every day in game.

The issue under discussion AFAIC is not whether AoE caps are justified, but what measures might help against the phenomenon of Zerging.

My view is that lifting AoE caps won't do much, and suggesting that it will is misleading and distacts from the actual issue.

Huckdabuck · October 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I'd think someone from VE would be know better than to attribute my reasoning to "ego" related issues. Could probably have a good discussion on it.

When did you stop RP'in on the forums and speaking in 3rd person?