Time to talk about vamp penalties...again...

LBxFinalDeath · October 2015

Do you even use werewolf, I'm curious?

The only people who think the ultimate cost isn't insane are people who have no intention to ever actually play as a werewolf.

Even if you go through with all of that and you think the 300 ultimate which is most likely the most high cost ultimate in the game is balanced werewolf is STILL not balanced in comparison to Vampirism, Vampires get a ton more positives and useful skills without losing access to their normal skills yet still are able to become as tanky as werewolves even with the most recent "buff"

They don't need to slot their ultimate even, they can slot elusive mist and laugh all the way out of a battle with their buffed regens.

Vamps also get stamina and magicka regen opposed to just stamina.

Werewolf doesn't even get the sneak speed buff while sneaking despite them being considered the "Ultimate Hunters" that are of course second only to Hircine.

Yet Vampires say they are the ones who are punished.

At the end of the day it is impossible to say with a straight face that werewolf is balanced, either you need to become near unstoppable when transformed (stun immunity?) or the ultimate needs to be reduced.

Maybe allow us to build up Ultimate for the next transformation while transformed?

Theres a reason why everyone goes Vampire over Werewolf is all I'm saying.

Only roleplayers go WW which is sad to say.

The fact that no matter what you do it forces you to be in a group if you wanna be effective shows how unbalanced it is.

Birdovic · October 2015

LBxFinalDeath wrote: »

Do you even use werewolf, I'm curious?

The only people who think the ultimate cost isn't insane are people who have no intention to ever actually play as a werewolf.

Even if you go through with all of that Werewolf and you think the 300 ultimate which is most likely the most high cost ultimate in the game is balanced werewolf is STILL not balanced in comparison to Vampirism, Vampires get a ton more positives and useful skills without losing access to their normal skills yet still are able to become as tanky as werewolves even with the most recent "buff"

Werewolf doesn't even get the sneak speed buff while sneaking despite them being considered the "Ultimate Hunters"

Yup, got a Nightblade WW.
You are right, it is the highest costing ult ingame, it used to cost 1000 ult

I think you didnt get what I said earlier, so here we go again:

WW is working best as GROUP. You should understand how devastating a 5 WW big Pack is before complaining.When a group of WW's transform and attack at once, a little batswarm is nothing you can use to compare to that, Vampirism is meant for solo play anyway which explains the lower cost. If you define the roles in your WW Pack and have access to all ability morphs, you will see how much you can buff and synergize each other and butcher groups of enemies in no time. Yes im talking about PvP. If you play solo or still think the ult cost is too high you should drop it and make space for Ults you usually miss when WW is slotted.

And your "Ultimate Hunter" describes the nice sprinting speed you have, so you can "hunt" down your prey.

LBxFinalDeath · October 2015

I did get what you said and it still doesn't make Werewolf seem anymore balanced.

Yes Vampire is meant for solo play but it works wonders in group play as well.

Clouding Swarm while spamming steel tornado in the middle of a enemy group while your friendlies are fighting = GG

You're saying Werewolf is meant for group play and isn't for solo play at all which in of itself means its not nearly as balanced as you seem to think it is unless you want to say Vampires aren't balanced since they can excel at either with not nearly as much difficulty.

On the Ultimate Hunter part I was speaking more of the normal form since every lorebook suggests that Lycanthropy grants werewolves even in their normal forms grand bonuses that can turn the dullest person into an excellent hunter/laborers due to reflexes, strength (to a lesser degree this than the others) and senses being enhanced and such.

That kind of leads me to think werewolves should get the sneak speed buff Vampires have but that may just be me, ya' know stealthily and quickly get as close to prey as possible before killing them....like a Hunter. =P

Birdovic · October 2015

LBxFinalDeath wrote: »

I did get what you said and it still doesn't make Werewolf seem anymore balanced.

Yes Vampire is meant for solo play but it works wonders in group play as well.

Clouding Swarm while spamming steel tornado in the middle of a enemy group while your friendlies are fighting = GG

You're saying Werewolf is meant for group play and isn't for solo play at all which in of itself means its not nearly as balanced as you seem to think it is unless you want to say Vampires aren't balanced since they can excel at either with not nearly as much difficulty.

On the Ultimate Hunter part I was speaking more of the normal form since every lorebook suggests that Lycanthropy grants werewolves even in their normal forms grand bonuses that can turn the dullest person into an excellent hunter/laborers due to reflexes, strength (to a lesser degree this than the others) and senses being enhanced.

That kind of leads me to think werewolves should get the sneak speed buff Vampires have but that may just be me.

Well, have you seen any successful WW fighting solo? I barely did. I said WW is for group play because the Abilities already point that out, and they synergize well with each other(even the names of the abilities suggest that, like "Pack Leader/Call of the Pack, etc.).

And as much of a Lore person I am, we cant just give everyone everything, things need to be unique, same goes for Vampires and WW. You cant make WW and Vampires different when giving them the same abilities/passives.
That said, faster sprinting WW looks and feels right, same for shady vampires sneaking in the shadows.

Comparing Vamp/WW is hard and not really necessary because they clearly tell us they play differently.
While Vampires are meant to be loners who sneak/survive/escape/have nonstop weaknesses like fire etc/be scary(lol, bats or something), WW are definetly aim at group play/hunting in the name of Hircine/ going berserk for limited time/decide when they can allow their weaknesses(when transforming)never lose their prey(sprint like hell), etc.

LBxFinalDeath · October 2015

I'm forced to compare the two because Vampires always bring Werewolves into their discussions as to why they need buffs.

Usually misinformation like they think we still get stamina regen without doing anything or they think our Ultimate costs as little as their stage 4 Vampire bat swarm and such.

Everyone else compares the two as well, you have to weigh them.

Vampire has far more viability since it can excel at solo and group play.

WW is forced to be in a group...so naturally everyone is gonna go Vampire because WW isn't balanced to the point to give people a viable reason to choose it over Vampire unless they are just fans of Hircine or something.

Either Vampire is unbalanced or WW is unbalanced.

eliisra · October 2015

The fire penalty was not a problem, even less now. You can make it up with CP.

The real issue with vamps is Fighters Guild skills in PvP. They should hurt for sure, but not allow you to easymode instagibb any vamp from sneak with 2+ Camo Hunters proc's. This crap has been going on since 1.5 and just as bad today. Camo Hunter these days hits even harder than the main attack, up to 17-20k sometimes on death recap(not sure if bug). But how the hell is that even ok?

I get that all anti-Edward people disagrees, vampires should die in 0.5 second because lore, looking ugly and it's their own fault for nothing curing blah blah. But please consider, for magicka dk + templar, going vamp is the only way to gain a silver of mobility and something resembling a disengage(that's not even working half the time).

If I need strong heals on my sorc I can get it from grabbing a resto staff. If I need a reflect on my NB I get S&B and so on. But If I need mobility and some kiting on magicka templar or DK I have to go vamp and get instagibbed by sneak attacks all day long lol. This is *** ZoS.

Birdovic · October 2015

Thats what I mean, people should only really go for WW if they mainly do PvE Soloable Stuff or if they got a nice Group with WW's, thats the most effective way to use it.

Its not a "must" to be Vamp/WW either, people should just chose wisely and not complain about it afterwards beccause they regret it. If you dont want to be WW, you can just stay "normal" too

LBxFinalDeath · October 2015

So what you're saying is easy stuff Werewolf but end-game stuff go Vampire?

Thats hardly balanced.

Birdovic · October 2015

LBxFinalDeath wrote: »

So what you're saying is easy stuff Werewolf but end-game stuff go Vampire?

Thats hardly balanced.

Nobody ever said that...Im saying go WW if you know what you're doing and got people to work together with.
If you said "end-game stuff go vampire" because of

people should only really go for WW if they mainly do PvE Soloable Stuff or if they got a nice Group with WW's, thats the most effective way to use it.

then I can assure you in PvE Endgame as vamp you still feel the flame damage, also FG abilities hit like what not (pointing towards VetDsa)

LBxFinalDeath · October 2015

Once again being forced to do something doesn't = balanced.

Jumper45 · October 2015

@joshdm2001_ESO I think all of this is unwarranted ranting. Just because it doesn't fit your specific play style does not mean does not have it uses and abuses. If it was as good as you wanted it to be EVERYONE would be a vampire. There would be no reason not to take it for passives and that makes no sense at all.

There are many passives you get from it and it is worth it. Not to mention access to skills that can be changed out depending on the situation. Honestly if I hear one more person QQing about the flame/fighter guild damage i'm gonna eat my own arm. You were specifically given an ability to counter this damage and then some that has other utilities. This isn't good enough for you? Fire damage coming. Honestly ANY DAMAGE coming via red circle under your feet? Mist on. No problem. This pretty much means you can stand in any red circle and just NGAF while everyone else gets hit or has to dodge. Once again the problem is skill slots.
Skill Slots
Skill Slots
Skill Slots
There is no room on your bar for mist because your build doesn't allow it. The game does not need to change itself around you. If you cannot Slot the proper skills for the passives then don't be a vampire. Its pretty simple. The flame damage and stages is to counter the fact you're running around with a bunch of extra passives no one else has. This is common sense.

Fine what ever I suppose. Lets take away stages and fire/guild damage and we can all run around as vampires till the day they just remove vampire all together because whats the point. -Shrug-

No one wants to use 1 slot for Running buff, 75% damage reduce. Magicka Recovery,Stamina Reocvery,Health Recovery,Stealth activation speed at night. Stealth Movement Speed and Damage Mitigation at low health. For just 1 skill slot. This is a no brainer. YES you can get most of this without using mist but then you have to eat that fire/guild damage.

bowmanz607 · October 2015

LBxFinalDeath wrote: »

Once again being forced to do something doesn't = balanced.

the thing is your not forced to do it. either be a vamp or dont. choose the drawbacks and incentives or dont. you cant just pick one over the other.

by your logic, it is like saying i want extra magicka recovery passive from support, but i dont want to slot one of those skills. or, I want crit bonus passive from NB, but I dont want to slot an ability. or, I want DW passives, but want to use a staff.

You are not forced to be a vamp, or to use support abilities, etc. But, that does not mean that if you choose those things that you can pick and choose what aspect of those passives you want or dont want. That doe not = balanced. we would all run around with benefits and no drawbacks.

LBxFinalDeath · October 2015

@bowmanz607 I take it....you didn't read my previous posts if you think I'm a Vampire complaining about wanting them to be even more unbalanced. =P

I'm more on the side of Vampires have it easy mode in comparison to werewolves.

Rayste · October 2015

From a pvp perspective and based on classes:

1) Nightblade - still excels as vamp with cloak / stealthy ganker style

2) sorc - no reason to be vamp

3) Dk and Templar - used to be good for mobility with elusive mist but not quite so much anymore

Unless you play a nightblade, there really isn't much use in going vamp.

PhatGrimReaper · October 2015

Rayste wrote: »

From a pvp perspective and based on classes:

1) Nightblade - still excels as vamp with cloak / stealthy ganker style

2) sorc - no reason to be vamp

3) Dk and Templar - used to be good for mobility with elusive mist but not quite so much anymore

Unless you play a nightblade, there really isn't much use in going vamp.

Sorry man, I have to disagree.... I recently got vampire again on my templar for PVP and haven't once regretted it. The undeath passive and sneak speed is enough to make worth while..... the Regen buff & Bats is the gravy. That Undeath passive lets you survive just a little longer and drop dat clutch Barrier yo.

Rayste · October 2015

PhatGrimReaper wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

From a pvp perspective and based on classes:

1) Nightblade - still excels as vamp with cloak / stealthy ganker style

2) sorc - no reason to be vamp

3) Dk and Templar - used to be good for mobility with elusive mist but not quite so much anymore

Unless you play a nightblade, there really isn't much use in going vamp.

Sorry man, I have to disagree.... I recently got vampire again on my templar for PVP and haven't once regretted it. The undeath passive and sneak speed is enough to make worth while..... the Regen buff & Bats is the gravy. That Undeath passive lets you survive just a little longer and drop dat clutch Barrier yo.

No doubt, was only my opinion. That is how I roll my toons.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2015

God this whole post is a mess as someone that maxed both WW and Vampirism on my Main. WW is super strong defense stats of my Tank we full DPS build damage it was Godly in WW form. Honestly the cost is high but I have stayed it WW form for up to ten minutes straight in PvP. The only problem I had was then I wanted to gank Seige or just gank period the slow sneak speed was just too slow.

With Vampirism needing to slot use a power for the regeneration is crazy the fire bonus and 10% general damage buff of the Fighters Guilds is strong Fire Staff does more fire damage, Dragon Knights and Dummer also does bonus damage. It's not like fire damage multiplier don't exist and aren't used. The Ultimate is out did by Soul Tether and the Mist is not as good a my Cloak. The only reason I went by to vamp is solely for the stealth speed. Don't even have the vamp powers unlocked.

I have them max but till they made powers for a stamina build the last three passives are all that matters.

GuyNamedSean · October 2015

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Are you serious the 25% damage from fire is hardly noticeable now.
"The whole reason to take vamp is for regen and now I have to give up a slot for an extra whopping 10% regen? Whoppie."
This is why its like that now....
there's even freaking Vampire tanks now.

I actually am a Vampire Nightblade tank. And I kick ass at it. I would like better active abilities as a vampire, though. Like OP says, our two active abilities are lacklustre.

Cathexis · October 2015

This tradeoff is you die slower to everything else and you get batswarm and mist form (and some bonus regen if you slot them) + sneak speed

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

This tradeoff is you die slower to everything else and you get batswarm and mist form (and some bonus regen if you slot them) + sneak speed

Most vampires I have grouped with don't even use the powers mist is not going to save you I can and will snare and root you in mist meaning you go no where or full heavy attacks to return some stamina while you can attack back. Bats is a good ultimate for everyone that AoE spams but the healing one is weaker then other healing Ultimates and seeing as most Nightblades like me use mark on every Nightblade and Vampire just incase they Claok or Clouding Bats.

I use it for the Sneak speed penalty being removed I just that Undeath cause I have to the the turn other players passive.

Lord-Otto · October 2015

Is this still going on?
Here, read it, and choke on it:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/224146/camo-hunter-stealth-extra-damage-no-cooldown#latest

Jumper45 · October 2015

PhatGrimReaper wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

From a pvp perspective and based on classes:

1) Nightblade - still excels as vamp with cloak / stealthy ganker style

2) sorc - no reason to be vamp

3) Dk and Templar - used to be good for mobility with elusive mist but not quite so much anymore

Unless you play a nightblade, there really isn't much use in going vamp.

Sorry man, I have to disagree.... I recently got vampire again on my templar for PVP and haven't once regretted it. The undeath passive and sneak speed is enough to make worth while..... the Regen buff & Bats is the gravy. That Undeath passive lets you survive just a little longer and drop dat clutch Barrier yo.

Get Cyrodills Light Set and Channel Lingering Ritual Ontop of the Undeath passive. Its Quite Funny. Just make sure youre standing in the Purify Ritual AOE for the 30% bonus healing. Or Jesus Beam if youd rather do damage.

Or Rite of Passage. Pretty much just turns you into a healing tank.

bowmanz607 · October 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

This tradeoff is you die slower to everything else and you get batswarm and mist form (and some bonus regen if you slot them) + sneak speed

Most vampires I have grouped with don't even use the powers mist is not going to save you I can and will snare and root you in mist meaning you go no where or full heavy attacks to return some stamina while you can attack back. Bats is a good ultimate for everyone that AoE spams but the healing one is weaker then other healing Ultimates and seeing as most Nightblades like me use mark on every Nightblade and Vampire just incase they Claok or Clouding Bats.

I use it for the Sneak speed penalty being removed I just that Undeath cause I have to the the turn other players passive.

Just because something has a counter does not mean it is not viable to use on your bar. By that same logic there would be little reason to slot cloak. Additi9nally, even if you are detected in swarm you still have a strong aoe dot to take your target down. Also, I likely won't use bats if I am marked. That is when you switch to your other ultimate and use that one. Just like if I am marked I am less likely to use cloak. I will use speed buffs and dodgeroll. Bat swarm is a powerful.

TheNephilimCrow · October 2015

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Seriously though. The penalties for being a vampire are still way to harsh for the reward.

1. Stages 2-4. Your health regenerates a whopping 25,50,75% slower! Although, your Vampirism abilities cost 20,40,60% less health to cast. This is fairly dumb considering We only get 2 skills. Drain essence and mist form. Really? We all know the problems with mist form, and drain essence is meh. Hardly anyone uses this skill cause it's a 3 sec channel that locks you in place. So, I gotta be bogged down with feeding every 30 min to stay in stage 1 for this crap? Might as well just remove the stage penalties. Most people who use mist form aren't hurting for resources to the point they need to be in stages 2-4. These skills don't justify the penalties.

2. Extra fighters guild and fire damage. 25% fire damage and fighter guild undead damage for what? Just because I can sneak a little faster? I can go in stealth a tiny bit faster at night? How is this valuable in pvp or pve? With all the counters to sneak this is way over the top. Not to mention trying to do a trial as a vamp is just painful and I want to whack my head against the wall. In pvp people are wrecking vamps with dawn beaker of smiling, camo hunter, silver bolts, and fire skills. also I have to give up slots for fire resistance?

3. Vampire slot for extra regen. Really? The whole reason to take vamp is for regen and now I have to give up a slot for an extra whopping 10% regen? Whoppie.

I'm not sure what you are thinking Zos but these penalties are whacked for what we get. Maybe if we had the speed boosts fom days of old. I don't want to point out Wherewolf and am in no way calling for a nerf but they get a ton more skills and get crazy stamina regen passive. The new meta is to be a stamina Wherewolf build. Either tone down the vamp penalties or give us something meaningful to actually compensate for such harsh penalties.

So really it comes down to harsh penalties for lackluster skills, lackluster sneak bonus, and lackluster regens that werewolves get passively. Only good skill we get is an ultimate but I have to give up the mighty meteor. The game has come a long way since launch and the penalties may have sounded good back then under a different meta. Times have changed and it's time to seriously revamp the vamp.

Discuss

1. Fire damage is not even an issue anymore. I have vampires on all but three of my characters and Fire damage is nothing. That's with no resistance jewelry or passives to add to it.
2. 10% regen for having a slotted skill is fair, because Vampires still have one of the best ultimates in the game and it counts towards that.
3. Werewolf get regen passively? You clearly didn't get the memo that WW's can no longer get those passives unless they are transformed.

You turned any fair argument you could have with this into nothing more than a rant. You fail to see that Vampires are indeed stronger than the average bear. So, in turn, they make Fighter's Guild members do extra damage, because 1.) Its in the lore for there to be Vampire hunters and 2.) They have to give non-vampire and non-werewolves fair game to do extra damage. It creates Vampire Hunting roleplays and such.

Before you start saying "I don't want to roleplay in this stupid game. I want to KILL EVERYTHING!" Just consider the type of game you are playing. An RPG. Which stands for Roleplaying Game. Everything in the game fits a storyline.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · October 2015

The real problem with vampire's choices :
1. templars and DK don't really have choice in pvp to go vamp because they don't have any escape abality. It means that they have to accept fire and fighters guild weakness because of a bad design class skills
2. lake of vampire skills. WW have access to dot, hot, gap closer, fear and other buffs with just one ult slotted. Indeed vampires have good passives like move speed and damage mitigation (that is not so powerfull because it's somewhat a "fake" mitigation in pvp environnement, because any player have fighters guild passives. Vampires need more slotable abilities in order to be more atractive. Their is no real arguments now to be one without more flexibility

ADarklore · October 2015

I went Vamp with a couple of my characters, but not sure I'll be doing the same with my current Khajiit Nightblade. The reason I usually went Vamp was for the Regen and Dark Stalker passive... however, feeding every 30 minutes to avoid the health regen decrease was a real pain- along with losing a better Ultimate simply to get the Regen passive. I find it interesting that some players say that 'it's better to just get to stage 4 because the skills cost less' but... most people don't even use the Vampire skills anyway because they're pretty useless. Considering in the next update they are reducing Health regen further, "Battle leveled player characters will now have more weapon and spell damage, and less health regeneration."

Thus, with my Khajiit, I'm not going to go Vamp, instead I'll utilize the Night's Silence set on my primary, DW bar and Hunding's Rage on my 2H. I may lose some damage that I could have received with going with another crafted set, but this will also allow me to slot an Assassination ultimate and gain more Crit Strike. As for Stamina Reg, thankfully the Khajiit racial gives me a bit of a bump there, plus full Medium armor bonus.