AoE Cap - Lord Fengrush hits it on the head

twistedmonk · October 2015

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Perfectly said... Daoc never needed damage/target caps and that had bigger zergs than eso ever had.

This +1

maybe you forgot the days of DAOC where the lag was so bad in large groups you had to stare at your feet so the other characters didn't load on your screen....

LiquidZ · October 2015

Am NB Scrib /._./

k2blader · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Way to misrepresent his argument. His point was that these groups are not coordinated. It is not about an ego stroke. The issue is whether or not players should automatically derive an in-game advantage for simply standing next to 6 other players rather than using their class abilities or by playing tactically. It is not absurd or egotistical to think that a smaller group who actually coordinates their moves and abilities should have the chance to defeat a larger group that does not (he gave specific examples like a healer who just blindly spams a healing skill that automatically goes to the player most in need). That is a perfectly rationale perspective.

Is the point that the groups are not coordinated? And by coordinated you mean: on TS and communicating strat?

So then it'd be OK for a coordinated group of 30+ to beat a small group. Right?

OR.. are folks actually meaning to say, "Anything over X number of players" is "not coordinated"?

Therein is my confusion because I'm not sure people are being entirely candid on that issue.

Re. the blind heal spam (tho speaking as someone who does not enjoy doing any primary healing playstyle), I appreciate that point. However, the blame for it lies solely on Zenimax's design, not the people playing the way healing was designed.

Rayste · October 2015

aco5712 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk6oYAiQGNo

59:00 onwards. What @FENGRUSH says is how every single person that loves pvp feels.

What they say about dynamic ulti gen is also the truth.

Good work on this podcast guys, enjoyed watching.

brilliant podcast. Keep up the good work...

Zheg · October 2015

@FENGRUSH , since you chose to avoid the harder-to-argue points raised in the thread, I'll reiterate and summarize them for you.

Solely in regards to the aoe cap, a simple removal is not a simple solution, and you should avoid selling it to the general playerbase as such. If you remove the aoe cap, one of two things are most likely to occur:

Rylana has already pointed it out, but the 'zerg' could stack so heavily into aoe dps that it won't matter if people are extra squishy now and you're able to take out some of them, since the rest of them just wiped your rambo group from the sheer range that a modestly spread out prox det line + ults (due to greater numbers) can accomplish. The top pvp guilds will gain a significant advantage as they're most likely to be able to remain glass cannons, wipe people, and still survive. If nothing else, this will lead to more incentive to stealth bombing everything in sight, and would reduce the actual drawn out fights most people tend to enjoy. Not fun either way, and hardly a fix like you make it sound.
The opposite could occur, and the 'zerg' stacks so heavily into HP, resist, and mitigation that your rambo group can barely scratch them, but since they have the numbers, they can easily focus the small group down. What would be WORSE, is if the super tanky zerg realizes they can afford to do so while still running siege and doing plenty of dps. Siege wars are no fun, and players that take forever to kill are no fun - now imagine everyone doing it. Furthermore, with the way rezzing currently works and how many extra people run kag's hope for dps builds, once you kill a tanky player, they're back up in 1-2 seconds. To be honest, this is the option I'd see things leaning towards, and it sounds like absolutely awful pvp to me.

In neither of those two options do I see the average PVPer gaining a more enjoyable pvp experience, and while I think your ultimate goal is to be able to take out a group like haxus with 2-4 solely for ego reasons - I still don't see you being successful in those two scenarios. So what did you gain by removing the aoe cap that wasn't immediately replaced by an equal or greater problem?

The point I'm trying to make is that players adapt, and while you might think you have a magic bullet to pvp problems - as soon as you push in one direction, players adapt and push back in another direction. Moreover, someone that's talked about and played pvp as much as you should already know there aren't magic bullets to these problems, and that they need to be tackled on multiple fronts. That's not to say I haven't been frustrated with pvp for the past year and think things are hunky-dorey, but I'm not so delusional to think that a single (and highly impactful) change like removing the aoe cap will fix the problem/s.

Lastly, I'd remind you to be wary of echo chambers. As someone already pointed out, the people participating on the panel all play the same way, and all thrive on the attention from their streams/whatever. It's easy to become convinced your thoughts are the only solution when you predominantly talk to people that play the game the exact same way you do (and I'm certainly aware that I run the same risk in talking to people that predominantly play in guilds), and/or people that have some bizarre celebrity obsession and constantly tell you how great you are. For fun, I would refer to these people as Beliebers, and the panel as Justin Bieber. Sure, he can sing better than most people, but he's far from the best singer, has steadily progressed in egotism, and has lost touch with the reality of the world after having so many people tell him how wonderful he is. Sure, you guys can pvp better than most people, but you're far from the best pvpers in ESO, your egos are far bigger than they were a year ago, and you tend to play with the same < 3 players when you do play - so now you start to lose perspective.

I apologize for linking you to Justin Bieber, no man should ever have that done to them, but I also had great fun doing so, so I'm ok with it.

Rust_in_Peace · October 2015

The reason AOE caps were put in place is because spells are literally spammable without any fear of running out of resources. That's the main issue that no one wants to talk about; there's currently no penalty for running AOE builds and just spamming your main attack.

If spells had cooldowns on them you wouldn't see that and it wouldn't be an issue. If attacks and heals had cooldowns people might have to give things a bit of thought before they mash their favorite key and it would certainly reduce the amount of lag from things like purge and healing springs spam.

Artjuh90 · October 2015

The AOE caps dont have to be a problem. could even be a good thing. But for that there should be a fair game with healinging/barriers.
I have been thinking about this idia and came to an idia to put an cap on AOE healing above 6 players like the aoe damaging abilty's + a healing nerf that after like 5 seconds a instand healing spell hit you the next healing spell will be halved in effectiveness, 3rth half to the 2nd so on. This would make single target abilty's aslo more viable which in their turn gives more diversety to the gameplay what in my opion is a good thing.
and for the dynamic ulti generation i wouldn't mind bringing it back but not like it was or what they bring up in the podcast that 10 people should earn same amount of ult as the group of 20 they are fighting against. but they would get like 15 ulti or somthing. THAT is balancing things out, if you give the small groep same amount of ult you just get a spammfest or just those small groups ganking the larger groups every time without the larger group haveing time to react and they lose. this will discource many new players and will hurt the game in the end.
let me know how you guys think about my idia's

Darnathian · October 2015

One down side is it would promote much more stealth bombing.

Frawr · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

@FENGRUSH , since you chose to avoid the harder-to-argue points raised in the thread, I'll reiterate and summarize them for you.

Solely in regards to the aoe cap, a simple removal is not a simple solution, and you should avoid selling it to the general playerbase as such. If you remove the aoe cap, one of two things are most likely to occur:
Rylana has already pointed it out, but the 'zerg' could stack so heavily into aoe dps that it won't matter if people are extra squishy now and you're able to take out some of them, since the rest of them just wiped your rambo group from the sheer range that a modestly spread out prox det line + ults (due to greater numbers) can accomplish. The top pvp guilds will gain a significant advantage as they're most likely to be able to remain glass cannons, wipe people, and still survive. If nothing else, this will lead to more incentive to stealth bombing everything in sight, and would reduce the actual drawn out fights most people tend to enjoy. Not fun either way, and hardly a fix like you make it sound.

The opposite could occur, and the 'zerg' stacks so heavily into HP, resist, and mitigation that your rambo group can barely scratch them, but since they have the numbers, they can easily focus the small group down. What would be WORSE, is if the super tanky zerg realizes they can afford to do so while still running siege and doing plenty of dps. Siege wars are no fun, and players that take forever to kill are no fun - now imagine everyone doing it. Furthermore, with the way rezzing currently works and how many extra people run kag's hope for dps builds, once you kill a tanky player, they're back up in 1-2 seconds. To be honest, this is the option I'd see things leaning towards, and it sounds like absolutely awful pvp to me.

In neither of those two options do I see the average PVPer gaining a more enjoyable pvp experience, and while I think your ultimate goal is to be able to take out a group like haxus with 2-4 solely for ego reasons - I still don't see you being successful in those two scenarios. So what did you gain by removing the aoe cap that wasn't immediately replaced by an equal or greater problem?

The point I'm trying to make is that players adapt, and while you might think you have a magic bullet to pvp problems - as soon as you push in one direction, players adapt and push back in another direction. Moreover, someone that's talked about and played pvp as much as you should already know there aren't magic bullets to these problems, and that they need to be tackled on multiple fronts. That's not to say I haven't been frustrated with pvp for the past year and think things are hunky-dorey, but I'm not so delusional to think that a single (and highly impactful) change like removing the aoe cap will fix the problem/s.

Lastly, I'd remind you to be wary of echo chambers. As someone already pointed out, the people participating on the panel all play the same way, and all thrive on the attention from their streams/whatever. It's easy to become convinced your thoughts are the only solution when you predominantly talk to people that play the game the exact same way you do (and I'm certainly aware that I run the same risk in talking to people that predominantly play in guilds), and/or people that have some bizarre celebrity obsession and constantly tell you how great you are. For fun, I would refer to these people as Beliebers, and the panel as Justin Bieber. Sure, he can sing better than most people, but he's far from the best singer, has steadily progressed in egotism, and has lost touch with the reality of the world after having so many people tell him how wonderful he is. Sure, you guys can pvp better than most people, but you're far from the best pvpers in ESO, your egos are far bigger than they were a year ago, and you tend to play with the same < 3 players when you do play - so now you start to lose perspective.

I apologize for linking you to Justin Bieber, no man should ever have that done to them, but I also had great fun doing so, so I'm ok with it.

You forgot option 3:

people spread out because there is no longer any protection offered in a zerg beyond +heals.

Now the zerg can be bombed by a small group.

perfect.

Jitterbug · October 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

Why cater to 4 customers instead of catering to 24 customers that came to this game for large scale PVP and not elitists?

I don't subscribe to this logic. The reason the 24 casuals are standing in base screaming LFG is because that's the only way for them to do anything on the other side of the gate without dying in 3 seconds (or less). If the meta of the game was changed in a way so people could just port somewhere, or ride somewhere, and do fair battle there would be no need for filthy casuals such as myself to feebly attempt to stack on crown.

I LFG, but I don't really want to. It would cater far more to me (as one of the 24 casuals) if I didn't have to be in a large zergy group.

Muizer · October 2015

Frawr wrote: »

You forgot option 3:

people spread out because there is no longer any protection offered in a zerg beyond +heals.

Now the zerg can be bombed by a small group.

perfect.

You'd still be safer in the zerg than anywhere else because you know there are many with you looking out for danger and, if it is spotted it can be taken out with overwhelming force before any serious damage is taken. That's the problem posed by zergs. That and the fact that, unlike in reality, such a large group does not require any coordination to move fast (because no collision) and concentrate fire (because no friendly fire).

Knootewoot · October 2015

Character collision might fix a bit

WAIT HERE ME OUT

In the game Ryzom you also had character collision. Of course annoying if you are in a crowded inn and you can't get out. But in Ryzom, if you pushed into another player you collided for 2 secs and then passed through the player.

In PvP this would also occur. But running in a huge group you just cannot coordinate to walk for 2 secs into eachother so the "Zerg" was a huge blob of people but not all standing on one place.

Jitterbug · October 2015

Knootewoot wrote: »

Character collision might fix a bit

WAIT HERE ME OUT

In the game Ryzom you also had character collision. Of course annoying if you are in a crowded inn and you can't get out. But in Ryzom, if you pushed into another player you collided for 2 secs and then passed through the player.

In PvP this would also occur. But running in a huge group you just cannot coordinate to walk for 2 secs into eachother so the "Zerg" was a huge blob of people but not all standing on one place.

Somehow I don't think this would help the performance issues

Joy_Division · October 2015

k2blader wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Way to misrepresent his argument. His point was that these groups are not coordinated. It is not about an ego stroke. The issue is whether or not players should automatically derive an in-game advantage for simply standing next to 6 other players rather than using their class abilities or by playing tactically. It is not absurd or egotistical to think that a smaller group who actually coordinates their moves and abilities should have the chance to defeat a larger group that does not (he gave specific examples like a healer who just blindly spams a healing skill that automatically goes to the player most in need). That is a perfectly rationale perspective.

Is the point that the groups are not coordinated? And by coordinated you mean: on TS and communicating strat?

Yes (with respect to the poor organized or poorly played groups Frengrush is referring to) and yes.

So then it'd be OK for a coordinated group of 30+ to beat a small group. Right?

Yes. Indeed they should precisely because they are coordinated and play tactically.

OR.. are folks actually meaning to say, "Anything over X number of players" is "not coordinated"?

I understand that sentiment is thrown around a lot by people with dislike zergs, but that is not the case. A 24 man raid in TS with players familiar with each other can be extremely coordinated.

Therein is my confusion because I'm not sure people are being entirely candid on that issue.

It's easy to get confused because "zerging" is a passionate issue for many here and that means there is going to be more bias and more subjectivity than usual.

Stikato · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

@FENGRUSH , since you chose to avoid the harder-to-argue points raised in the thread, I'll reiterate and summarize them for you.

Solely in regards to the aoe cap, a simple removal is not a simple solution, and you should avoid selling it to the general playerbase as such. If you remove the aoe cap, one of two things are most likely to occur:
Rylana has already pointed it out, but the 'zerg' could stack so heavily into aoe dps that it won't matter if people are extra squishy now and you're able to take out some of them, since the rest of them just wiped your rambo group from the sheer range that a modestly spread out prox det line + ults (due to greater numbers) can accomplish. The top pvp guilds will gain a significant advantage as they're most likely to be able to remain glass cannons, wipe people, and still survive. If nothing else, this will lead to more incentive to stealth bombing everything in sight, and would reduce the actual drawn out fights most people tend to enjoy. Not fun either way, and hardly a fix like you make it sound.

The opposite could occur, and the 'zerg' stacks so heavily into HP, resist, and mitigation that your rambo group can barely scratch them, but since they have the numbers, they can easily focus the small group down. What would be WORSE, is if the super tanky zerg realizes they can afford to do so while still running siege and doing plenty of dps. Siege wars are no fun, and players that take forever to kill are no fun - now imagine everyone doing it. Furthermore, with the way rezzing currently works and how many extra people run kag's hope for dps builds, once you kill a tanky player, they're back up in 1-2 seconds. To be honest, this is the option I'd see things leaning towards, and it sounds like absolutely awful pvp to me.

In neither of those two options do I see the average PVPer gaining a more enjoyable pvp experience, and while I think your ultimate goal is to be able to take out a group like haxus with 2-4 solely for ego reasons - I still don't see you being successful in those two scenarios. So what did you gain by removing the aoe cap that wasn't immediately replaced by an equal or greater problem?

The point I'm trying to make is that players adapt, and while you might think you have a magic bullet to pvp problems - as soon as you push in one direction, players adapt and push back in another direction. Moreover, someone that's talked about and played pvp as much as you should already know there aren't magic bullets to these problems, and that they need to be tackled on multiple fronts. That's not to say I haven't been frustrated with pvp for the past year and think things are hunky-dorey, but I'm not so delusional to think that a single (and highly impactful) change like removing the aoe cap will fix the problem/s.

Lastly, I'd remind you to be wary of echo chambers. As someone already pointed out, the people participating on the panel all play the same way, and all thrive on the attention from their streams/whatever. It's easy to become convinced your thoughts are the only solution when you predominantly talk to people that play the game the exact same way you do (and I'm certainly aware that I run the same risk in talking to people that predominantly play in guilds), and/or people that have some bizarre celebrity obsession and constantly tell you how great you are. For fun, I would refer to these people as Beliebers, and the panel as Justin Bieber. Sure, he can sing better than most people, but he's far from the best singer, has steadily progressed in egotism, and has lost touch with the reality of the world after having so many people tell him how wonderful he is. Sure, you guys can pvp better than most people, but you're far from the best pvpers in ESO, your egos are far bigger than they were a year ago, and you tend to play with the same < 3 players when you do play - so now you start to lose perspective.

I apologize for linking you to Justin Bieber, no man should ever have that done to them, but I also had great fun doing so, so I'm ok with it.

This just sounds like a bunch of random, contradictory arguments against AOE cap removal, because you believe it would hinder your preferred style of pvp.

AOE caps are completely artificial, and are opposed by the vast majority of the community.

At the end of the day, clustering 24 people together and purge spamming is a stupid meta that makes pvp less fun and drives people from the game. Spin it however you want.

Nijjion · October 2015

twistedmonk wrote: »

If you played DAOC from day one, you would know there was no purge when game launched. that was added later when they added realm abilities. there were no realm abilities when game launched...so no, you could not break out of CC

What was that like 1-2 years out of like 8? Come on you would or say should include the majority of the time the game was out not the minority... don't be silly!

twistedmonk wrote: »

That game did not have aoe caps....and that's how 4 people could destroy a group of 20 with zero chance of losing. GG

Isn't that awesome though that with combination of skills and teamwork you can own larger groups... can't do that in ESO or GW2 because of caps. (Or not as easily and under certain circumstances)

I played alb/hib and bombed the other realms no problem. Such an awesome game, I miss it so much...my eld/enchanter/bainshee and wizard bomb groups were awesome back then.

Cannot wait for Camelot Unchained... will be back to old times with DAoC hopefully with modern mmo mechanics.

Rylana · October 2015

Frawr wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@FENGRUSH , since you chose to avoid the harder-to-argue points raised in the thread, I'll reiterate and summarize them for you.

Solely in regards to the aoe cap, a simple removal is not a simple solution, and you should avoid selling it to the general playerbase as such. If you remove the aoe cap, one of two things are most likely to occur:
Rylana has already pointed it out, but the 'zerg' could stack so heavily into aoe dps that it won't matter if people are extra squishy now and you're able to take out some of them, since the rest of them just wiped your rambo group from the sheer range that a modestly spread out prox det line + ults (due to greater numbers) can accomplish. The top pvp guilds will gain a significant advantage as they're most likely to be able to remain glass cannons, wipe people, and still survive. If nothing else, this will lead to more incentive to stealth bombing everything in sight, and would reduce the actual drawn out fights most people tend to enjoy. Not fun either way, and hardly a fix like you make it sound.

The opposite could occur, and the 'zerg' stacks so heavily into HP, resist, and mitigation that your rambo group can barely scratch them, but since they have the numbers, they can easily focus the small group down. What would be WORSE, is if the super tanky zerg realizes they can afford to do so while still running siege and doing plenty of dps. Siege wars are no fun, and players that take forever to kill are no fun - now imagine everyone doing it. Furthermore, with the way rezzing currently works and how many extra people run kag's hope for dps builds, once you kill a tanky player, they're back up in 1-2 seconds. To be honest, this is the option I'd see things leaning towards, and it sounds like absolutely awful pvp to me.

In neither of those two options do I see the average PVPer gaining a more enjoyable pvp experience, and while I think your ultimate goal is to be able to take out a group like haxus with 2-4 solely for ego reasons - I still don't see you being successful in those two scenarios. So what did you gain by removing the aoe cap that wasn't immediately replaced by an equal or greater problem?

The point I'm trying to make is that players adapt, and while you might think you have a magic bullet to pvp problems - as soon as you push in one direction, players adapt and push back in another direction. Moreover, someone that's talked about and played pvp as much as you should already know there aren't magic bullets to these problems, and that they need to be tackled on multiple fronts. That's not to say I haven't been frustrated with pvp for the past year and think things are hunky-dorey, but I'm not so delusional to think that a single (and highly impactful) change like removing the aoe cap will fix the problem/s.

Lastly, I'd remind you to be wary of echo chambers. As someone already pointed out, the people participating on the panel all play the same way, and all thrive on the attention from their streams/whatever. It's easy to become convinced your thoughts are the only solution when you predominantly talk to people that play the game the exact same way you do (and I'm certainly aware that I run the same risk in talking to people that predominantly play in guilds), and/or people that have some bizarre celebrity obsession and constantly tell you how great you are. For fun, I would refer to these people as Beliebers, and the panel as Justin Bieber. Sure, he can sing better than most people, but he's far from the best singer, has steadily progressed in egotism, and has lost touch with the reality of the world after having so many people tell him how wonderful he is. Sure, you guys can pvp better than most people, but you're far from the best pvpers in ESO, your egos are far bigger than they were a year ago, and you tend to play with the same < 3 players when you do play - so now you start to lose perspective.

I apologize for linking you to Justin Bieber, no man should ever have that done to them, but I also had great fun doing so, so I'm ok with it.

You forgot option 3:

people spread out because there is no longer any protection offered in a zerg beyond +heals.

Now the zerg can be bombed by a small group.

perfect.

Wishful thinking. They will still stay stacked because of the range of heals. Hell the whole reason people started blobbing had NOTHING TO DO with aoe cap protection, it was so everyone could stay inside the damn healing springs circles.

This was happening before the AOE cap even existed.

Does anyone remember when negate literally destroyed stack groups for this reason? All of their healing was from ground effect, once negated if they didnt move they died instantaneously. It had nothing to do with damage mitigation.

BuggeX · October 2015

Frawr wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@FENGRUSH , since you chose to avoid the harder-to-argue points raised in the thread, I'll reiterate and summarize them for you.

Solely in regards to the aoe cap, a simple removal is not a simple solution, and you should avoid selling it to the general playerbase as such. If you remove the aoe cap, one of two things are most likely to occur:
Rylana has already pointed it out, but the 'zerg' could stack so heavily into aoe dps that it won't matter if people are extra squishy now and you're able to take out some of them, since the rest of them just wiped your rambo group from the sheer range that a modestly spread out prox det line + ults (due to greater numbers) can accomplish. The top pvp guilds will gain a significant advantage as they're most likely to be able to remain glass cannons, wipe people, and still survive. If nothing else, this will lead to more incentive to stealth bombing everything in sight, and would reduce the actual drawn out fights most people tend to enjoy. Not fun either way, and hardly a fix like you make it sound.

The opposite could occur, and the 'zerg' stacks so heavily into HP, resist, and mitigation that your rambo group can barely scratch them, but since they have the numbers, they can easily focus the small group down. What would be WORSE, is if the super tanky zerg realizes they can afford to do so while still running siege and doing plenty of dps. Siege wars are no fun, and players that take forever to kill are no fun - now imagine everyone doing it. Furthermore, with the way rezzing currently works and how many extra people run kag's hope for dps builds, once you kill a tanky player, they're back up in 1-2 seconds. To be honest, this is the option I'd see things leaning towards, and it sounds like absolutely awful pvp to me.

In neither of those two options do I see the average PVPer gaining a more enjoyable pvp experience, and while I think your ultimate goal is to be able to take out a group like haxus with 2-4 solely for ego reasons - I still don't see you being successful in those two scenarios. So what did you gain by removing the aoe cap that wasn't immediately replaced by an equal or greater problem?

The point I'm trying to make is that players adapt, and while you might think you have a magic bullet to pvp problems - as soon as you push in one direction, players adapt and push back in another direction. Moreover, someone that's talked about and played pvp as much as you should already know there aren't magic bullets to these problems, and that they need to be tackled on multiple fronts. That's not to say I haven't been frustrated with pvp for the past year and think things are hunky-dorey, but I'm not so delusional to think that a single (and highly impactful) change like removing the aoe cap will fix the problem/s.

Lastly, I'd remind you to be wary of echo chambers. As someone already pointed out, the people participating on the panel all play the same way, and all thrive on the attention from their streams/whatever. It's easy to become convinced your thoughts are the only solution when you predominantly talk to people that play the game the exact same way you do (and I'm certainly aware that I run the same risk in talking to people that predominantly play in guilds), and/or people that have some bizarre celebrity obsession and constantly tell you how great you are. For fun, I would refer to these people as Beliebers, and the panel as Justin Bieber. Sure, he can sing better than most people, but he's far from the best singer, has steadily progressed in egotism, and has lost touch with the reality of the world after having so many people tell him how wonderful he is. Sure, you guys can pvp better than most people, but you're far from the best pvpers in ESO, your egos are far bigger than they were a year ago, and you tend to play with the same < 3 players when you do play - so now you start to lose perspective.

I apologize for linking you to Justin Bieber, no man should ever have that done to them, but I also had great fun doing so, so I'm ok with it.

You forgot option 3:

people spread out because there is no longer any protection offered in a zerg beyond +heals.

Now the zerg can be bombed by a small group.

perfect.

do you rly think this is gona happen?

Muizer wrote: »

(because no friendly fire).

there we have the solution

edit:
the main Problem of Zerging are the Buffs like rapit maneuver or barrier, cause they arent affected of the aoe cap. To achive the most effectiv, anybody has to be in a small radius, and there zergs are Born.

increes the range of the said Buffs or Skills and cap it to 5-10 ppls

Tankqull · October 2015

twistedmonk wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Perfectly said... Daoc never needed damage/target caps and that had bigger zergs than eso ever had.

This +1

maybe you forgot the days of DAOC where the lag was so bad in large groups you had to stare at your feet so the other characters didn't load on your screen....

not disagreeing BUT there is a significant difference. even at that time with 500 players( including pets especially uncapped shroom spam of hibs) involved in a relic raid did not create server issues as we see in ESO. the "lag" you observed at that time were purely on the users end as our P2 with 150mHz and upto 500mb ram and a graphic card with a whooping 1mb graphic ram were not able to handle that amounts of players.
in ESO its completly different the bottleneck are the servers unable to handle 100 players in a similar tight spot.
just as an example when my old DAoC server was merged the entire population met the day before in the centre of Agramon regarding a present GM the entire server Cap of 2500 players have been on that isle and over 2k players have been in the centre when i made this pic

you can see the lag meter directly below my compass => zero ping and packet loss issues while my pc was screaming :P
in my direct proximity were over 2k players... no game since DAoC was able to handle even 1/10th of that in a even half as remotely matter. who ever was the genius creating DAoCs netcode as the coding deity he was he merits our prays...

Knootewoot wrote: »

Character collision might fix a bit

WAIT HERE ME OUT

In the game Ryzom you also had character collision. Of course annoying if you are in a crowded inn and you can't get out. But in Ryzom, if you pushed into another player you collided for 2 secs and then passed through the player.

In PvP this would also occur. But running in a huge group you just cannot coordinate to walk for 2 secs into eachother so the "Zerg" was a huge blob of people but not all standing on one place.

collision detection is by far the most complex thing a server has to handle - this would screw the ESO servers entirely that allready can barely handle non complex actions...

Rylana wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@FENGRUSH , since you chose to avoid the harder-to-argue points raised in the thread, I'll reiterate and summarize them for you.

Solely in regards to the aoe cap, a simple removal is not a simple solution, and you should avoid selling it to the general playerbase as such. If you remove the aoe cap, one of two things are most likely to occur:
Rylana has already pointed it out, but the 'zerg' could stack so heavily into aoe dps that it won't matter if people are extra squishy now and you're able to take out some of them, since the rest of them just wiped your rambo group from the sheer range that a modestly spread out prox det line + ults (due to greater numbers) can accomplish. The top pvp guilds will gain a significant advantage as they're most likely to be able to remain glass cannons, wipe people, and still survive. If nothing else, this will lead to more incentive to stealth bombing everything in sight, and would reduce the actual drawn out fights most people tend to enjoy. Not fun either way, and hardly a fix like you make it sound.

The opposite could occur, and the 'zerg' stacks so heavily into HP, resist, and mitigation that your rambo group can barely scratch them, but since they have the numbers, they can easily focus the small group down. What would be WORSE, is if the super tanky zerg realizes they can afford to do so while still running siege and doing plenty of dps. Siege wars are no fun, and players that take forever to kill are no fun - now imagine everyone doing it. Furthermore, with the way rezzing currently works and how many extra people run kag's hope for dps builds, once you kill a tanky player, they're back up in 1-2 seconds. To be honest, this is the option I'd see things leaning towards, and it sounds like absolutely awful pvp to me.

In neither of those two options do I see the average PVPer gaining a more enjoyable pvp experience, and while I think your ultimate goal is to be able to take out a group like haxus with 2-4 solely for ego reasons - I still don't see you being successful in those two scenarios. So what did you gain by removing the aoe cap that wasn't immediately replaced by an equal or greater problem?

The point I'm trying to make is that players adapt, and while you might think you have a magic bullet to pvp problems - as soon as you push in one direction, players adapt and push back in another direction. Moreover, someone that's talked about and played pvp as much as you should already know there aren't magic bullets to these problems, and that they need to be tackled on multiple fronts. That's not to say I haven't been frustrated with pvp for the past year and think things are hunky-dorey, but I'm not so delusional to think that a single (and highly impactful) change like removing the aoe cap will fix the problem/s.

Lastly, I'd remind you to be wary of echo chambers. As someone already pointed out, the people participating on the panel all play the same way, and all thrive on the attention from their streams/whatever. It's easy to become convinced your thoughts are the only solution when you predominantly talk to people that play the game the exact same way you do (and I'm certainly aware that I run the same risk in talking to people that predominantly play in guilds), and/or people that have some bizarre celebrity obsession and constantly tell you how great you are. For fun, I would refer to these people as Beliebers, and the panel as Justin Bieber. Sure, he can sing better than most people, but he's far from the best singer, has steadily progressed in egotism, and has lost touch with the reality of the world after having so many people tell him how wonderful he is. Sure, you guys can pvp better than most people, but you're far from the best pvpers in ESO, your egos are far bigger than they were a year ago, and you tend to play with the same < 3 players when you do play - so now you start to lose perspective.

I apologize for linking you to Justin Bieber, no man should ever have that done to them, but I also had great fun doing so, so I'm ok with it.

You forgot option 3:

people spread out because there is no longer any protection offered in a zerg beyond +heals.

Now the zerg can be bombed by a small group.

perfect.

Wishful thinking. They will still stay stacked because of the range of heals. Hell the whole reason people started blobbing had NOTHING TO DO with aoe cap protection, it was so everyone could stay inside the damn healing springs circles.

This was happening before the AOE cap even existed.

Does anyone remember when negate literally destroyed stack groups for this reason? All of their healing was from ground effect, once negated if they didnt move they died instantaneously. It had nothing to do with damage mitigation.

the AoE cap was not implemented it existed from the beginning but everybody was expecting otherwise and thus did not clump-up untill they (ZOS) accidently announced the 6 player cap creating an uproar in april last year and from there you envisioned more and more stacking screwing the servers aswell...

Artjuh90 · October 2015

@ Darnathian isnt that the only way a small group should be able to beat a larger group to catch them offguard.
and the idia of friendly fire is great. maybe not 100% damage of friendly fire, this would make melee builds useless but like 20-50%

Rylana · October 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

twistedmonk wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Perfectly said... Daoc never needed damage/target caps and that had bigger zergs than eso ever had.

This +1

maybe you forgot the days of DAOC where the lag was so bad in large groups you had to stare at your feet so the other characters didn't load on your screen....

not disagreeing BUT there is a significant difference. even at that time with 500 players( including pets especially uncapped shroom spam of hibs) involved in a relic raid did not create server issues as we see in ESO. the "lag" you observed at that time were purely on the users end as our P2 with 150mHz and upto 500mb ram and a graphic card with a whooping 1mb graphic ram were not able to handle that amounts of players.
in ESO its completly different the bottleneck are the servers unable to handle 100 players in a similar tight spot.
just as an example when my old DAoC server was merged the entire population met the day before in the centre of Agramon regarding a present GM the entire server Cap of 2500 players have been on that isle and over 2k players have been in the centre when i made this pic

you can see the lag meter directly below my compass => zero ping and packet loss issues while my pc was screaming :P
in my direct proximity were over 2k players... no game since DAoC was able to handle even 1/10th of that in a even half as remotely matter. who ever was the genius creating DAoCs netcode as the coding deity he was he merits our prays...

Knootewoot wrote: »

Character collision might fix a bit

WAIT HERE ME OUT

In the game Ryzom you also had character collision. Of course annoying if you are in a crowded inn and you can't get out. But in Ryzom, if you pushed into another player you collided for 2 secs and then passed through the player.

In PvP this would also occur. But running in a huge group you just cannot coordinate to walk for 2 secs into eachother so the "Zerg" was a huge blob of people but not all standing on one place.

collision detection is by far the most complex thing a server has to handle - this would screw the ESO servers entirely that allready can barely handle non complex actions...

Rylana wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@FENGRUSH , since you chose to avoid the harder-to-argue points raised in the thread, I'll reiterate and summarize them for you.

Solely in regards to the aoe cap, a simple removal is not a simple solution, and you should avoid selling it to the general playerbase as such. If you remove the aoe cap, one of two things are most likely to occur:
Rylana has already pointed it out, but the 'zerg' could stack so heavily into aoe dps that it won't matter if people are extra squishy now and you're able to take out some of them, since the rest of them just wiped your rambo group from the sheer range that a modestly spread out prox det line + ults (due to greater numbers) can accomplish. The top pvp guilds will gain a significant advantage as they're most likely to be able to remain glass cannons, wipe people, and still survive. If nothing else, this will lead to more incentive to stealth bombing everything in sight, and would reduce the actual drawn out fights most people tend to enjoy. Not fun either way, and hardly a fix like you make it sound.

The opposite could occur, and the 'zerg' stacks so heavily into HP, resist, and mitigation that your rambo group can barely scratch them, but since they have the numbers, they can easily focus the small group down. What would be WORSE, is if the super tanky zerg realizes they can afford to do so while still running siege and doing plenty of dps. Siege wars are no fun, and players that take forever to kill are no fun - now imagine everyone doing it. Furthermore, with the way rezzing currently works and how many extra people run kag's hope for dps builds, once you kill a tanky player, they're back up in 1-2 seconds. To be honest, this is the option I'd see things leaning towards, and it sounds like absolutely awful pvp to me.

In neither of those two options do I see the average PVPer gaining a more enjoyable pvp experience, and while I think your ultimate goal is to be able to take out a group like haxus with 2-4 solely for ego reasons - I still don't see you being successful in those two scenarios. So what did you gain by removing the aoe cap that wasn't immediately replaced by an equal or greater problem?

The point I'm trying to make is that players adapt, and while you might think you have a magic bullet to pvp problems - as soon as you push in one direction, players adapt and push back in another direction. Moreover, someone that's talked about and played pvp as much as you should already know there aren't magic bullets to these problems, and that they need to be tackled on multiple fronts. That's not to say I haven't been frustrated with pvp for the past year and think things are hunky-dorey, but I'm not so delusional to think that a single (and highly impactful) change like removing the aoe cap will fix the problem/s.

Lastly, I'd remind you to be wary of echo chambers. As someone already pointed out, the people participating on the panel all play the same way, and all thrive on the attention from their streams/whatever. It's easy to become convinced your thoughts are the only solution when you predominantly talk to people that play the game the exact same way you do (and I'm certainly aware that I run the same risk in talking to people that predominantly play in guilds), and/or people that have some bizarre celebrity obsession and constantly tell you how great you are. For fun, I would refer to these people as Beliebers, and the panel as Justin Bieber. Sure, he can sing better than most people, but he's far from the best singer, has steadily progressed in egotism, and has lost touch with the reality of the world after having so many people tell him how wonderful he is. Sure, you guys can pvp better than most people, but you're far from the best pvpers in ESO, your egos are far bigger than they were a year ago, and you tend to play with the same < 3 players when you do play - so now you start to lose perspective.

I apologize for linking you to Justin Bieber, no man should ever have that done to them, but I also had great fun doing so, so I'm ok with it.

You forgot option 3:

people spread out because there is no longer any protection offered in a zerg beyond +heals.

Now the zerg can be bombed by a small group.

perfect.

Wishful thinking. They will still stay stacked because of the range of heals. Hell the whole reason people started blobbing had NOTHING TO DO with aoe cap protection, it was so everyone could stay inside the damn healing springs circles.

This was happening before the AOE cap even existed.

Does anyone remember when negate literally destroyed stack groups for this reason? All of their healing was from ground effect, once negated if they didnt move they died instantaneously. It had nothing to do with damage mitigation.

the AoE cap was not implemented it existed from the beginning but everybody was expecting otherwise and thus did not clump-up untill they (ZOS) accidently announced the 6 player cap creating an uproar in april last year and from there you envisioned more and more stacking screwing the servers aswell...

No. In beta testing, especially the open beta the month before launch, the AoE cap had not yet been implemented.

Group strategies still used to this day were formed then. They never changed or diverted. When the AoE cap was dropped onto the community literally one week from launch, the weekend before early access, there was a community uproar thread over 200 pages in length (which was wiped when the beta boards were wiped) addressing the issue and potential to make an already existing problem worse.

As launch day hit and the same strats continued to be used all through 1.0 and 1.1 the AoE cap was mostly forgotten about as players focused more attention on broken skill lines and "cloth wearing vampires spamming standards bats and talons" than on the real problems already existing from beta.

On Wabbajack a blue zergball started to form that would lag things tremendously. The bombstack had already existed, but was now starting to become multiraid in size.

The problem became even larger on Dawnbreaker, and then Thornblade (especially thornblade) as intentionally lagging the server (a byproduct of mass calculations in blobbed groups spamming heals, yes heals, on themselves) became a common tactic to cause rollbacks.

Also around this time was the famous FPS drop, and other major exploitable bugs (caltrops, wall of elements) and the like. AoE caps again were forgotten about.

it was only when ZoS changes the caps to scale with size that people even started making a fuss about them again. They existed since launch yes, but the strats as to why groups blob had nothing to do with the caps. That was preexisting strat from beta due to heals and carried over strats from other games.

We would discover later the benefit those blobs had from the AoE caps, but this was after they were already doing it, and is not the cause of them doing it, even today.

Groups run tight to keep heals, barriers, purges, and damage stacked together. The whole AoE cap thing is just a strawman, though I am aware it has its point. I assure you those stacked bombgroups of today would still stack even without an AoE cap, and in fact would be much much more dangerous than they are now, especially to smaller groups over six in size.

bertenburnyb16_ESO · October 2015

since the PvP is such a mess in ESO lately, I've been playing GW2 WvW again inbetween after 1.5year not playing that game, and havin a blast
not writing ESO off completely, but stuff s pretty messed up with no indications of improvement

ItsRejectz · October 2015

twistedmonk wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Perfectly said... Daoc never needed damage/target caps and that had bigger zergs than eso ever had.

This +1

maybe you forgot the days of DAOC where the lag was so bad in large groups you had to stare at your feet so the other characters didn't load on your screen....

We are talking about AoE caps, not lag

Zheg · October 2015

Frawr wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@FENGRUSH , since you chose to avoid the harder-to-argue points raised in the thread, I'll reiterate and summarize them for you.

Solely in regards to the aoe cap, a simple removal is not a simple solution, and you should avoid selling it to the general playerbase as such. If you remove the aoe cap, one of two things are most likely to occur:
Rylana has already pointed it out, but the 'zerg' could stack so heavily into aoe dps that it won't matter if people are extra squishy now and you're able to take out some of them, since the rest of them just wiped your rambo group from the sheer range that a modestly spread out prox det line + ults (due to greater numbers) can accomplish. The top pvp guilds will gain a significant advantage as they're most likely to be able to remain glass cannons, wipe people, and still survive. If nothing else, this will lead to more incentive to stealth bombing everything in sight, and would reduce the actual drawn out fights most people tend to enjoy. Not fun either way, and hardly a fix like you make it sound.

The opposite could occur, and the 'zerg' stacks so heavily into HP, resist, and mitigation that your rambo group can barely scratch them, but since they have the numbers, they can easily focus the small group down. What would be WORSE, is if the super tanky zerg realizes they can afford to do so while still running siege and doing plenty of dps. Siege wars are no fun, and players that take forever to kill are no fun - now imagine everyone doing it. Furthermore, with the way rezzing currently works and how many extra people run kag's hope for dps builds, once you kill a tanky player, they're back up in 1-2 seconds. To be honest, this is the option I'd see things leaning towards, and it sounds like absolutely awful pvp to me.

In neither of those two options do I see the average PVPer gaining a more enjoyable pvp experience, and while I think your ultimate goal is to be able to take out a group like haxus with 2-4 solely for ego reasons - I still don't see you being successful in those two scenarios. So what did you gain by removing the aoe cap that wasn't immediately replaced by an equal or greater problem?

The point I'm trying to make is that players adapt, and while you might think you have a magic bullet to pvp problems - as soon as you push in one direction, players adapt and push back in another direction. Moreover, someone that's talked about and played pvp as much as you should already know there aren't magic bullets to these problems, and that they need to be tackled on multiple fronts. That's not to say I haven't been frustrated with pvp for the past year and think things are hunky-dorey, but I'm not so delusional to think that a single (and highly impactful) change like removing the aoe cap will fix the problem/s.

Lastly, I'd remind you to be wary of echo chambers. As someone already pointed out, the people participating on the panel all play the same way, and all thrive on the attention from their streams/whatever. It's easy to become convinced your thoughts are the only solution when you predominantly talk to people that play the game the exact same way you do (and I'm certainly aware that I run the same risk in talking to people that predominantly play in guilds), and/or people that have some bizarre celebrity obsession and constantly tell you how great you are. For fun, I would refer to these people as Beliebers, and the panel as Justin Bieber. Sure, he can sing better than most people, but he's far from the best singer, has steadily progressed in egotism, and has lost touch with the reality of the world after having so many people tell him how wonderful he is. Sure, you guys can pvp better than most people, but you're far from the best pvpers in ESO, your egos are far bigger than they were a year ago, and you tend to play with the same < 3 players when you do play - so now you start to lose perspective.

I apologize for linking you to Justin Bieber, no man should ever have that done to them, but I also had great fun doing so, so I'm ok with it.

You forgot option 3:

people spread out because there is no longer any protection offered in a zerg beyond +heals.

Now the zerg can be bombed by a small group.

perfect.

Ahhh, optimism, refreshing. It's pretty naive to think one change will make everyone wake up the next day and say - "I'm going to spread out now" rather than just adapt and change their spec to be tanky, or just go full glass cannon and realize that a group of 40, 60 can abuse the lack of an aoe cap against a group of 20 because they have more ults. I listed the two things most likely to occur as I see them, not every possibility. I mean, reread your statement and realize how contradictory it is - people are going to spread out, making them not a zerg ball, but that means small groups can bomb them? What exactly is there to bomb if there isn't a ball any more? There's little I can do to argue when logic leaves the station.

Zheg · October 2015

Stikato wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@FENGRUSH , since you chose to avoid the harder-to-argue points raised in the thread, I'll reiterate and summarize them for you.

Solely in regards to the aoe cap, a simple removal is not a simple solution, and you should avoid selling it to the general playerbase as such. If you remove the aoe cap, one of two things are most likely to occur:
Rylana has already pointed it out, but the 'zerg' could stack so heavily into aoe dps that it won't matter if people are extra squishy now and you're able to take out some of them, since the rest of them just wiped your rambo group from the sheer range that a modestly spread out prox det line + ults (due to greater numbers) can accomplish. The top pvp guilds will gain a significant advantage as they're most likely to be able to remain glass cannons, wipe people, and still survive. If nothing else, this will lead to more incentive to stealth bombing everything in sight, and would reduce the actual drawn out fights most people tend to enjoy. Not fun either way, and hardly a fix like you make it sound.

The opposite could occur, and the 'zerg' stacks so heavily into HP, resist, and mitigation that your rambo group can barely scratch them, but since they have the numbers, they can easily focus the small group down. What would be WORSE, is if the super tanky zerg realizes they can afford to do so while still running siege and doing plenty of dps. Siege wars are no fun, and players that take forever to kill are no fun - now imagine everyone doing it. Furthermore, with the way rezzing currently works and how many extra people run kag's hope for dps builds, once you kill a tanky player, they're back up in 1-2 seconds. To be honest, this is the option I'd see things leaning towards, and it sounds like absolutely awful pvp to me.

In neither of those two options do I see the average PVPer gaining a more enjoyable pvp experience, and while I think your ultimate goal is to be able to take out a group like haxus with 2-4 solely for ego reasons - I still don't see you being successful in those two scenarios. So what did you gain by removing the aoe cap that wasn't immediately replaced by an equal or greater problem?

The point I'm trying to make is that players adapt, and while you might think you have a magic bullet to pvp problems - as soon as you push in one direction, players adapt and push back in another direction. Moreover, someone that's talked about and played pvp as much as you should already know there aren't magic bullets to these problems, and that they need to be tackled on multiple fronts. That's not to say I haven't been frustrated with pvp for the past year and think things are hunky-dorey, but I'm not so delusional to think that a single (and highly impactful) change like removing the aoe cap will fix the problem/s.

Lastly, I'd remind you to be wary of echo chambers. As someone already pointed out, the people participating on the panel all play the same way, and all thrive on the attention from their streams/whatever. It's easy to become convinced your thoughts are the only solution when you predominantly talk to people that play the game the exact same way you do (and I'm certainly aware that I run the same risk in talking to people that predominantly play in guilds), and/or people that have some bizarre celebrity obsession and constantly tell you how great you are. For fun, I would refer to these people as Beliebers, and the panel as Justin Bieber. Sure, he can sing better than most people, but he's far from the best singer, has steadily progressed in egotism, and has lost touch with the reality of the world after having so many people tell him how wonderful he is. Sure, you guys can pvp better than most people, but you're far from the best pvpers in ESO, your egos are far bigger than they were a year ago, and you tend to play with the same < 3 players when you do play - so now you start to lose perspective.

I apologize for linking you to Justin Bieber, no man should ever have that done to them, but I also had great fun doing so, so I'm ok with it.

This just sounds like a bunch of random, contradictory arguments against AOE cap removal, because you believe it would hinder your preferred style of pvp.

AOE caps are completely artificial, and are opposed by the vast majority of the community.

At the end of the day, clustering 24 people together and purge spamming is a stupid meta that makes pvp less fun and drives people from the game. Spin it however you want.

There is nothing random nor contradictory about the two scenarios I proposed as (very real) possible outcomes to an aoe cap removal. The fact remains, not one of you has been able to actually counter the fact that with every single change to pvp/skills/classes/softcap removal/whatever - the playerbase immediately adapts and a new 'problem' is created. I've listed two very likely new 'problems' that are equal or worse to the current one, and would likely be the result of the proposed change. Just because the vast majority of the playerbase (as you say, and according to what? an unreliable forum poll - which includes 'beliebers' that hop on the bandwagon of a streamer?) may say they want something, that doesn't mean they've actually thought through the repercussions, OR that the repercussions have actually been explained to them. If you phrase the poll as "would you like to see aoe caps removed even if it means most players will run full tank specs so it takes forever to kill even a single player, in effect giving more benefits to larger numbers because a small group STILL won't have the dps to kill them, and everyone uses fire ballistas to compensate for their damage?" do you really think you'd see the same numbers saying yes? I don't.

I never said the current meta isn't a stupid one, what I AM saying is that this particular change could very well likely bring about an even worse meta, and again, no one has actually given me a solid reason why people won't start running tanky in response. It's the very first thing I'd want our guild to try out, GoS already runs tanky, so how long do you think before the rest of the pvp guilds experiment, and then how long for the rest of the playerbase to pick it up? Usually, these things don't take very long.

Lastly, what you seem to not be picking up on, even though people have already pointed it out multiple times, is that not having an aoe cap won't hinder my playstyle. We'll do testing with the new meta, figure out what changes need to be made to specs/our calls, and then continue to run in a tight, coordinated, 16-24 man group. NOTHING will change on our end. While I realize most people are up in arms over the people that stack 2 or 3 full raids in a single keep, if you think <4 people are going to wipe our full raid, I'm sure there's someone looking to sell you a bridge right now. Because guess what, people in the group you just tried to bomb held block and emergency barriered, you have no more ults, and they have 23. GG.

In 1.6, our group used to be able to easily wipe double our numbers (40+), and though we could still pull it off, things would get hairy at 3 times our numbers (particularly because of the long-lost lag where no skills go off). In 2.1, the only significant change has been the increased damage mitigation to battle spirit, and the increased number of people running kag's hope for dps specs - overall reducing the average rez time. We have significant trouble against double numbers now if there are skilled players in the mix simply because anyone we're able to kill is just rezzed up a second later, so eventually the swords we've popped draw more and more enemies and you get overwhelmed. I've talked to other groups that experience similar issues with the current meta. If you can't read between the lines, aoe cap was present in 1.6 and we were able to take on 2-3 times our numbers, aoe cap was present in 2.1 and we struggle to take on those odds now. The only change has been increased dmg mit and reduced rez time, yet you guys somehow think only the aoe cap is what limits a group's ability to take on overwhelming numbers.

MikeB · October 2015

IC Sewers has turned into nothing but people emptying all their stones, stealthing to any of the apposed factions entrance and waiting to gank people grinding. I thought IC was supposed to bring a risk/reward system? All it has brought is scumbags ganking noobs after they've been farming for hours. Half the time its a group of 4-5+ stealthed jumping on one person at a time just to steal their stones. What risk are they taking? They bring 0 TV stones and hope to gank as many solo people as possible and leave with their fat sack of TV stones that they took no risk in getting.

Ishammael · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can not believe there is actually a debate about this. To all you AOE cap advocates. We have seen your "solution" in place for a year and a half and it doesn't work. You had your chance. You were and are wrong. Step aside gracefully.

There is only one possible reservation and that was brought up by @Rylana. It does take about 40 pugs in a disorganized blob to have a chance at taking out a coordinated raid. If you lift caps, I can understand the fear that since now those 40 will be taking full damage and the smaller 16-20 organized raids might be unbeatable.

But, I do not think that is how things will happen because:
These disorganized mobs are *not* benefiting from the AoE cap very much precisely because of the fact they are disorganized. They do not stack on crown; in fact they tend to disperse when focused, thus leaving the poor brave souls or those suckers still playing a DK to get steamrolled without having AoE cap protection.

When I play alone, I hardly *ever* derive the benefit of an AoE cap damage mitigation. I am almost *always* competing against it whenever I run into Rage or Vehemence or these very groups that you fear will be made more powerful. That disparity is more than absurd, that is ***. I absolutely cannot fathom the logic that somehow that cap is reigning in the power of these raids and making it more "fair" for me. No it is not. It is doing precisely the opposite. The only scenario where I would derive the same advantage of these stack on crown groups is if I sought out to ball together with other allies, which is precisely the sort of play we supposedly want to discourage, not to mention very unreliable given the tendency for Pugs to disperse.

When I raid, I am almost *always* benefiting from AoE cap mitigation. It is so important for survival there are mods out solely dedicated to making it easy to stack on crown. This isn't new. Here is the defining strategy as articulated from my old PvP guildmaster back in June 2014: "Get your ass to the crown, stack inside of my character model, and burn everything you have." The guilds you fear will in fact be losing what is in essence a monopoly on the AoE cap advantage, because the disorganized mobs lack the cohesion and smaller groups lack the numbers to similarly take advantage.

In sum, the benefits of removing AoE caps for offensive abilities by the stack of crown raids will be less than the current benefits that they alone derive for AoE caps. The only times they will see an appreciable boost to their steel tornadoes and prox dets is when they go against another stack on crown raid. Maybe one will actually be thinking of ways so as to spread out to ensure that only their opponents take all that damage.

If I turn out to be wrong, I do not care. Call me out on it. It is clear as day the current state of affairs with the AoE encourages the very type of play that we are trying to do away with and is a nightmare to compete against. The status quo absolutely sucks.

Reduce Barrier to 6 targets. Boom, done.

@Joy_Division is right. The argument is prove-ably over. AoE caps need to go.

AoE caps needed to go last year. The fear of an uncapped VE or RAGE or Haxus is unfounded -- the required amount of output dmg to wipe them will be reduced, dramatically. Their success is both tied to their skill as a group, positioning as a group, and their ability to utilize the AoE dmg reduction to their benefit. The 40+ Zerg mobs should be quivering in fear for uncapped AoE: they destroy PvP, destroy performance, make people rage-quit campaigns. Keep takes should be more than stack on crown and flip flags. Players should be spreading into the courtyard, taking towers, keeping high ground, blocking the breach. Now its just siege --> stack --> flip.

RE: siege as an anti-zerg tool.
F*k siege, seriously. Everybody f*king hates siege. Siege is boring, unoriginal, and no-skill.

Ishammael · October 2015

Rylana wrote: »

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Imagine a non aoe capped Haxus, Vehemence, GoS, KHole or a similar sub-raid sized coordinated group.

Imagine removing the AOE cap and bombgroups have to think and play with equal skill.

Remove the AOE cap and each proxdet from that 12-16man will hit every single person within range for full damage.

Do you not understand how this is a very bad thing? Right now the larger groups are able to win via sheer numbers because they mitigate some of the damage. Take away that mitigation and it actually benefits the paintrains the most. No one but another paintrain would be able to counter them.

Prox Det needs to go. Should never have been added.

Zheg · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can not believe there is actually a debate about this. To all you AOE cap advocates. We have seen your "solution" in place for a year and a half and it doesn't work. You had your chance. You were and are wrong. Step aside gracefully.

There is only one possible reservation and that was brought up by @Rylana. It does take about 40 pugs in a disorganized blob to have a chance at taking out a coordinated raid. If you lift caps, I can understand the fear that since now those 40 will be taking full damage and the smaller 16-20 organized raids might be unbeatable.

But, I do not think that is how things will happen because:
These disorganized mobs are *not* benefiting from the AoE cap very much precisely because of the fact they are disorganized. They do not stack on crown; in fact they tend to disperse when focused, thus leaving the poor brave souls or those suckers still playing a DK to get steamrolled without having AoE cap protection.

When I play alone, I hardly *ever* derive the benefit of an AoE cap damage mitigation. I am almost *always* competing against it whenever I run into Rage or Vehemence or these very groups that you fear will be made more powerful. That disparity is more than absurd, that is ***. I absolutely cannot fathom the logic that somehow that cap is reigning in the power of these raids and making it more "fair" for me. No it is not. It is doing precisely the opposite. The only scenario where I would derive the same advantage of these stack on crown groups is if I sought out to ball together with other allies, which is precisely the sort of play we supposedly want to discourage, not to mention very unreliable given the tendency for Pugs to disperse.

When I raid, I am almost *always* benefiting from AoE cap mitigation. It is so important for survival there are mods out solely dedicated to making it easy to stack on crown. This isn't new. Here is the defining strategy as articulated from my old PvP guildmaster back in June 2014: "Get your ass to the crown, stack inside of my character model, and burn everything you have." The guilds you fear will in fact be losing what is in essence a monopoly on the AoE cap advantage, because the disorganized mobs lack the cohesion and smaller groups lack the numbers to similarly take advantage.

In sum, the benefits of removing AoE caps for offensive abilities by the stack of crown raids will be less than the current benefits that they alone derive for AoE caps. The only times they will see an appreciable boost to their steel tornadoes and prox dets is when they go against another stack on crown raid. Maybe one will actually be thinking of ways so as to spread out to ensure that only their opponents take all that damage.

If I turn out to be wrong, I do not care. Call me out on it. It is clear as day the current state of affairs with the AoE encourages the very type of play that we are trying to do away with and is a nightmare to compete against. The status quo absolutely sucks.

Reduce Barrier to 6 targets. Boom, done.

@Joy_Division is right. The argument is prove-ably over. AoE caps need to go.

AoE caps needed to go last year. The fear of an uncapped VE or RAGE or Haxus is unfounded -- the required amount of output dmg to wipe them will be reduced, dramatically. Their success is both tied to their skill as a group, positioning as a group, and their ability to utilize the AoE dmg reduction to their benefit. The 40+ Zerg mobs should be quivering in fear for uncapped AoE: they destroy PvP, destroy performance, make people rage-quit campaigns. Keep takes should be more than stack on crown and flip flags. Players should be spreading into the courtyard, taking towers, keeping high ground, blocking the breach. Now its just siege --> stack --> flip.

RE: siege as an anti-zerg tool.
F*k siege, seriously. Everybody f*king hates siege. Siege is boring, unoriginal, and no-skill.

And would that hold true if VE/RAGE/Haxus experiment and realize with the new meta you can run 40k+ health or something stupid, go full tank, still run tight, and laugh off the small group trying to kill them? Or that with that much survivability, even more people can go lay down extra fire siege and make it pretty much impossible for smaller numbers to win? Yeah, sorry, the argument is not prove-ably over until you can provide sound reasoning as to why that (or something equal to it) won't occur and completely negate the intention of removing the aoe cap.

aco5712 · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can not believe there is actually a debate about this. To all you AOE cap advocates. We have seen your "solution" in place for a year and a half and it doesn't work. You had your chance. You were and are wrong. Step aside gracefully.

There is only one possible reservation and that was brought up by @Rylana. It does take about 40 pugs in a disorganized blob to have a chance at taking out a coordinated raid. If you lift caps, I can understand the fear that since now those 40 will be taking full damage and the smaller 16-20 organized raids might be unbeatable.

But, I do not think that is how things will happen because:
These disorganized mobs are *not* benefiting from the AoE cap very much precisely because of the fact they are disorganized. They do not stack on crown; in fact they tend to disperse when focused, thus leaving the poor brave souls or those suckers still playing a DK to get steamrolled without having AoE cap protection.

When I play alone, I hardly *ever* derive the benefit of an AoE cap damage mitigation. I am almost *always* competing against it whenever I run into Rage or Vehemence or these very groups that you fear will be made more powerful. That disparity is more than absurd, that is ***. I absolutely cannot fathom the logic that somehow that cap is reigning in the power of these raids and making it more "fair" for me. No it is not. It is doing precisely the opposite. The only scenario where I would derive the same advantage of these stack on crown groups is if I sought out to ball together with other allies, which is precisely the sort of play we supposedly want to discourage, not to mention very unreliable given the tendency for Pugs to disperse.

When I raid, I am almost *always* benefiting from AoE cap mitigation. It is so important for survival there are mods out solely dedicated to making it easy to stack on crown. This isn't new. Here is the defining strategy as articulated from my old PvP guildmaster back in June 2014: "Get your ass to the crown, stack inside of my character model, and burn everything you have." The guilds you fear will in fact be losing what is in essence a monopoly on the AoE cap advantage, because the disorganized mobs lack the cohesion and smaller groups lack the numbers to similarly take advantage.

In sum, the benefits of removing AoE caps for offensive abilities by the stack of crown raids will be less than the current benefits that they alone derive for AoE caps. The only times they will see an appreciable boost to their steel tornadoes and prox dets is when they go against another stack on crown raid. Maybe one will actually be thinking of ways so as to spread out to ensure that only their opponents take all that damage.

If I turn out to be wrong, I do not care. Call me out on it. It is clear as day the current state of affairs with the AoE encourages the very type of play that we are trying to do away with and is a nightmare to compete against. The status quo absolutely sucks.

Reduce Barrier to 6 targets. Boom, done.

@Joy_Division is right. The argument is prove-ably over. AoE caps need to go.

AoE caps needed to go last year. The fear of an uncapped VE or RAGE or Haxus is unfounded -- the required amount of output dmg to wipe them will be reduced, dramatically. Their success is both tied to their skill as a group, positioning as a group, and their ability to utilize the AoE dmg reduction to their benefit. The 40+ Zerg mobs should be quivering in fear for uncapped AoE: they destroy PvP, destroy performance, make people rage-quit campaigns. Keep takes should be more than stack on crown and flip flags. Players should be spreading into the courtyard, taking towers, keeping high ground, blocking the breach. Now its just siege --> stack --> flip.

RE: siege as an anti-zerg tool.
F*k siege, seriously. Everybody f*king hates siege. Siege is boring, unoriginal, and no-skill.

And would that hold true if VE/RAGE/Haxus experiment and realize with the new meta you can run 40k+ health or something stupid, go full tank, still run tight, and laugh off the small group trying to kill them? Or that with that much survivability, even more people can go lay down extra fire siege and make it pretty much impossible for smaller numbers to win? Yeah, sorry, the argument is not prove-ably over until you can provide sound reasoning as to why that (or something equal to it) won't occur and completely negate the intention of removing the aoe cap.

i really dont understand why your so afraid to remove them? Its been so long with aoe caps and the zergs are just getting bigger and bigger and harder to kill because of it and performance has hardly improved. Why not try something different? You might even like it, you dont know. Ulti gen isnt dynamic so dont give me the perma bats DKs of old reason.