rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

To avoid conflicts of interest and tooting our own horn, you're telling me that people in haxus, GoS, and the long-lost Deci weren't skilled? Have you ever even caught one of them alone or with just a few others? What's that? You don't remember because they beat you so badly you've blocked out the memory of the encounter? Well, I'll take some pity on you then.

Hahaha, truth is they are easy kills when you catch them alone or with a few others.

You do understand that by the nature of the zergball they basically don't have single target abilities or that setup at hand, nor are they particularly skilled at small scale combat.

Most of the time they either try to go into a defensive "I'm not letting go of block until my buddies save me" mode or they run.

The only thing that doesn't change is they still talk smack, even while lying dead on the ground after being spanked 1v1.

90% of them are 1vX fodder when caught unzerged.

Mate I think you missed his point.

Catch me alone sometime by yourself, you wont be so smug. Then again no one ever is. The idea that someone that plays in a group being automatically a bad player outside of a group is just an excuse fallacy people like you invented to justify losses. (id totally beat you 1v1, blah blah blah - no no you wouldnt, everyone that has ever said this to me has gotten their asses kicked when i found them alone, everyone)

I still remember quite fondly my undefeated 1v1 encounter streak before that pesky sorc snapped it a few months back. Easily over 200 single player engagements, I was virtually impossible to kill solo. Didnt always get my kill, but most people either ran off or died. So please stop with the knocking of group players, youre nothing special yourself.

What normally happens to me is exactly what you describe/accuse players like me of doing. id find some trash talker from forums or PMs out solo in the field, engage them. Either stalemate or be beating them. theyd cloak/bolt out... or turtle down buying time. next thing I know theyve got 3-4 buddies jumping me. Clearly I had them beat, they couldnt handle me alone. So tell me again about group players being bad in solo or small man play.

I think an awful lot of you forgot that I myself often run solo or with a group of four or less. if you think i am an easy kill ive got some really bad news for you.... as I do not identify you in any way as one of the barest handful of people out there that can take me out solo. There are less than 10 in the entire playerbase that Ive ever met. And I mean able to actually kill me completely by themselves.

I see all these people bashing PVErs for zerging around in Imperial City. (as if it is ONLY PVE Carebears in these large groups)

I wonder what PVPers realistically thought that the PVErs would do in Imperial City? walk around solo and be gank fodder for you to take Stones from? Did you REALLY think Imp City would be a solo-roam-gank paradise?

Nope, they are going to zerg in numbers while you sit stealthed in the corner.

Game's built for large-scale pvp.it's the DAoC model, which is large zergs and keep sieges. Move it indoors, make something drop from players you kill...it's still gonna be large-scale PVP.

you want competitive small-group pvp? (btw, I am convinced that the majority of vocal PVPers don't actuall want competitive pvp, they just want small groups of carebears to gank, teabag, and take stuff from)

you are gonna have to wait until some sort of 4x4 Arena is patched in. and there won't be Tel Var Stones to take from players there.(which means the majority of "PVPers" won't partake.)

otherwise, what you are going to get is exactly what it is now. Large Roaming groups of players clashing.

PVP in MMOs is NEVER balanced or built around 1v1 and that is one of the primary problems that Forum PVPers have. they base EVERYTHING they suggest on 1v1 and the game is never built that way. It's always built around Group Vs Group combat, only the size of the group differs. But it is always GROUPvGROUP , NOT 1v1.

twistedmonk wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

I think an awful lot of you forgot that I myself often run solo or with a group of four or less. if you think i am an easy kill ive got some really bad news for you....

I think their point is that people that play in groups have group/support oriented builds - I am willing to bet none of these solo pvper's ever put purge/barrier on their bars when they 1vX.

or for that matter, I'm sure most of them pick the current meta pvp class/build.

I doubt they are trying to 1v1 with a support class/build. right? that wouldnt make sense.

and also realize these guys also started dueling guilds and that's all the do is practice 1v1's. the vast majority of ESO players have not done that and probably don't want to either.

I think it boils down to a couple of very vocal twitch streamers that consider themselves competitive PvP players playing a PvE game that happens to have a casual pvp content that is meant to be large scale PvP.

I dont run a "group build" or a "solo build" I run a PvP build. What that means is I run a combination of group and solo skills, usually one set on each bar. While it limits me somewhat in something like a duel scenario where someone can dedicate all ten skills and both ultis to fighting a single individual, it gives me options for getting caught out on my own. ergo - just because im running barrier/det/mines on my main bar doesnt meant im not also running shields/streak/frags/curse on my offbar.

Then again its also personal playstyle, even in a "pain train" group I have certain responsibilities I am given, such as shutting down siege(hi crown, how about dem meatbag busts ) or scouting the defense layout of an inner before the group goes in. also chasing down pesky runners. Being versatile is very important, and I didnt appreciate the stereotype presented implying that people in guilds like mine are nothing but mindless zerg zombies that cant fight any other way.

Also, a little GoS video, we dont just "paintrain"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXmxLuw-f6I

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Catch me alone sometime by yourself, you wont be so smug. Then again no one ever is. The idea that someone that plays in a group being automatically a bad player outside of a group is just an excuse fallacy people like you invented to justify losses. (id totally beat you 1v1, blah blah blah - no no you wouldnt, everyone that has ever said this to me has gotten their asses kicked when i found them alone, everyone)

I still remember quite fondly my undefeated 1v1 encounter streak before that pesky sorc snapped it a few months back. Easily over 200 single player engagements, I was virtually impossible to kill solo. Didnt always get my kill, but most people either ran off or died. So please stop with the knocking of group players, youre nothing special yourself.

What normally happens to me is exactly what you describe/accuse players like me of doing. id find some trash talker from forums or PMs out solo in the field, engage them. Either stalemate or be beating them. theyd cloak/bolt out... or turtle down buying time. next thing I know theyve got 3-4 buddies jumping me. Clearly I had them beat, they couldnt handle me alone. So tell me again about group players being bad in solo or small man play.

I think an awful lot of you forgot that I myself often run solo or with a group of four or less. if you think i am an easy kill ive got some really bad news for you.... as I do not identify you in any way as one of the barest handful of people out there that can take me out solo. There are less than 10 in the entire playerbase that Ive ever met. And I mean able to actually kill me completely by themselves.

That's a lot of talk, none of it anything but bravado.

Always a lot of talk from some people.

Kill Counter is a nice way of looking at the talk.

I could get into details or post of screen shot, but lol why even bother with all that talk.

Like for instance, the adulation target of this thread is not only an easy kill that always tries to run and is "on farm" in kill counter... but so are you. To think that I don't even zerg...

In game name?

twistedmonk wrote: »

I think we are getting off-topic. it's about removing AOE caps and the effect that will have on the overall PvP game.

I think the debate is more over some people wanting to bomb group rangers1 and get 24 kills.

It likely wouldn't change the zerg blob mentality at all.

The real culprit isn't aoe caps, it's the barrier cycling and the fact that alliance war skills affect all allies.

Rylana wrote: »

In game name?

I choose not to.

But you talk a lot for someone with blxxxxxney in your guild. Right?

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

twistedmonk wrote: »

I think we are getting off-topic. it's about removing AOE caps and the effect that will have on the overall PvP game.

I think the debate is more over some people wanting to bomb group rangers1 and get 24 kills.

It likely wouldn't change the zerg blob mentality at all.

The real culprit isn't aoe caps, it's the barrier cycling and the fact that alliance war skills affect all allies.

Rylana wrote: »

In game name?

I choose not to.

But you talk a lot for someone with blxxxxxney in your guild. Right?

Until you man up and give me an in game name to check your claims youve never killed me on your own.

But thanks for playing. Its alright though, trash talkers generally are too scared to give their in game names and try to remain anonymous because they are liars.

me on the other hand, I make no bones about who I am.

And here we go again. PvP ruining PvE again and again!

twistedmonk wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

I think an awful lot of you forgot that I myself often run solo or with a group of four or less. if you think i am an easy kill ive got some really bad news for you....

I think their point is that people that play in groups have group/support oriented builds - I am willing to bet none of these solo pvper's ever put purge/barrier on their bars when they 1vX.

or for that matter, I'm sure most of them pick the current meta pvp class/build.

I doubt they are trying to 1v1 with a support class/build. right? that wouldnt make sense.

and also realize these guys also started dueling guilds and that's all the do is practice 1v1's. the vast majority of ESO players have not done that and probably don't want to either.

I think it boils down to them wanting 1-4 people to be able to bumrush and kill 10-40 people....I don't see how that's good for the game at all. just my opinion. We already had that with the 1-shot builds and vamp magic DKs...not good times.

it seems if we follow the logic of removing aoe caps, that they want this group of 1-4 people to run into a larger group and just aoe them all down. I mean..yeah I heard they said they wanted "small groups to have a chance against large groups"...but the only way that could possibly work is if a group of 1-4 people can just run into a pack of people and just aoe them all down in a few seconds. as they view it as punishment for being in a clustered group......ok...

You can't make a game to please everybody. the best games are the ones that focus on one thing and do it right....

I would be more supportive if an organized group of 20 could kill an unorganized group of 40...oh wait...we already have that...

Well said. When the IC update came out, I basically had to switch from a more solo oriented build to a much more group oriented build, dare I say also a more PvE-ish oriented build. This is thanks largely to becoming part of a guild I really enjoy running with, and I want to help do my part as a contributor to the guild group. When I play with them I feel much more responsible to slot the skills they want/need me to, rather than sticking to some of the skills I prefer using.

I generally agree the panelists were made up of people who seem to want to have their groups of 4 or fewer be able to overcome large groups. The weird thing is, they already can. A small group of high-CP'd, max-geared players like them can already demolish a less coordinated, less-maximized larger group 3+ times their size thanks to CPs and gear in addition to skill. So I really don't understand what exactly they're asking for.

[edit]
Wanted to add in a guild group of ~12 max last night on Azuras, we came across zergs/larger groups and had fun. And no one was complaining they were too much, and it was unfair, or griping there should be a way 12 of us deserve be able to wipe 30+ people all the time.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

The problem may lie with some guilds that are unwilling to invite an unknown person into their organized group. At least that may be some of the problem. So all of these pugs just group with one another with little knowledge of how to successfully defend or take a keep but with numbers they can just rush it. That is just a guess from months of looking at zone chat and seeing "lfg" over and over and over until usually the person starts their own group and then you see a ton of ungrouped players joining.

If people are willing to open up their guilds, invite some of these new players and teach them how to PvP maybe we will have a better experience.

While uncapped AOE's might open up a new can of worms with the more experienced guilds out therr like Haxus and VE and Decibel (still around?) etc. It may be worth a try, maybe in one of the campaigns make it uncapped and test it. It's not going to hurt anything to test it out, maybe even on PTS and invite these guilds in to try it out and see if it's something to go forward with. Heck, it doesn't even have to be on every campaign. Maybe make campaigns more unique, like one has a very low CP cap (as mentioned by someone in the Twitch stream), one has uncapped AOE's, another has keeps with more guards and real tough generals (think of banner bosses in terms of difficulty) you have to defeat to get a keep/resource (making it a tough campaign, even add guards back at the scroll gates and on the way up to the temple) etc. Spice up PvP.

The problem is that a lot of defenses don't stand a chance, or at least have little chance. For example, the other day on Haderus blues were making a huge push, which was fun to defend against, however at one point we had 5-6 oils dumping on them (they were sieging the inner front door) and it did nothing. "Back in the day" if you sieged the front and got that many oils dumped on you, you were probably going to die and your group would need to back off, adjust and rethink strategy because purge only did so much. Now however people can just stand under the oil and a dedicated purger or a Templar will keep them alive pretty much guaranteed. I think that this has led some players to just letting keeps fall and just taking them back later, not much of a PvP experience.

I prefer PvP in this game and want to see it go on.

I saw this happen alot on Azura's previous cycle, and sometimes it isn't the fault of a guild per se, but some players just don't WANT to work in an organized manner or adopt decent tactics. They refuse to learn and that turns off alot of major groups from inviting random people and trying to teach these players. If a person spams LFG LFG LFG x6 then begins yelling "WHY YOU NO INVITE ME", well of course he won't be a desirable in any group situation.

Also the siege issue, I saw this too when EP were sieging an outpost (Nikel I think?) and DC were putting up a decent fight. They had the entire top deck ringed with oils, and it just didn't do spit because of healing being splooged all over plus dmg reduction. I don't think siege bubbles were up on the ground either. These days I see siege kill other siege much faster than players. Maybe instead of nerfing disease effects they should buff them back to vanilla levels and either increase siege dmg to compensate for BS buff or designate siege dmg as a separate category from that. Force people to fall back if debuffed or engage at a different angle.

Very true, I have seen those kind of players too in zone. Hard to teach when they don't want to listen.

Would be nice if they made siege matter, definitely agreed. At this point people don't get punished in PvP for "standing in stupid" as they say in PvE.

Well I do think there's something wrong with PvP. I just do not think AoE cap removal, or ZoS' idea of "an even bigger bomb" is going to work.

And why should it. The whole idea that a smaller number should be able to beat vastly larger numbers does not make sense, except in the case of siege defense.

My problem with the zerg is not that I can't beat it, but that I cannot get away from it.

Firstly, people in a zerg can pretty much move at top speed, because they have to have little concern for their own safety and because there's no collision that would in reality make mass movement a cumbersone affair.
Secondly, as the game has no friendly fire, there are no restrictions on where they can direct their ranged attacks, meaning it has the ability to project mass destruction at range and a complete death zone through AoE at short range.

I don't think friendly fire is going to be introduced tbh, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if clumping together would just slow people down proportionally. Imagine a zerg, that cannot just roll over everything in its path, simply because everyone would be able to get out of its way in time. That would be good enough for me. Let the zergs fight large scale battles and sieges, but give room to smaller groups to harrass the big ones..........as has always been an option in pre-modern warfare.

Muizer wrote: »

@FENGRUSH

Do you think removing the AoE cap will make it possible for a handful of average players with moderate coordination to beat a zerg?

Because, if they cannot, the zerg will remain as prevalent as ever and it is only the few pro players working in close coordination who may survive end even farm the zerg occasionally.

I'm asking because there's clearly some doubt about whether you and your friends are arguing for the removal of the AoE cap for the benefit of the community, or only for the benefit of a few who meet your high standards of play.

Suppose AoE caps are removed and zergs still persist, even though they get beat occasionally. Will you admit the measure failed, or will you just say it's people's fault for not being as good as you?

Youre basically saying that almost every player is average - and even amongst the average players none can push themselves to become better players? Theres A LOT of great players in this game. Many of them are running in zergs because they want to PvP in Cyro and they dont have another option. Others gave up and moved to dueling, some have farmed CP until things got better, others quit. All of the people on that podcast know a ton of people that fall into these categories.

This isnt to benefit the 4 people on the podcast, there are tons of players in this game that want this and many that would actually come back to ESO if this happened.

twistedmonk wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

@FENGRUSH
Do you think removing the AoE cap will make it possible for a handful of average players with moderate coordination to beat a zerg?

so you are saying if an average group of lets say 5 goes up against an average group of players 20-30, they can beat them?

If they are equally skilled and have no other advantages then why would they beat them? It doesnt really matter. The real question to entertain is why do the 20-30 players have AOE caps which literally prevents the 5 from even trying? This instills into them that they should zerg because they will be so discouraged having to walk away from that fight not even being able to kill 1 player. Sure, they should lose - but literally; they wont kill anyone because of AOE caps. Even if amongst those 20-30 there was a couple first time players to PvP who literally didnt even use a skill on their bar, wouldnt have CC broke anything, nor defended themselves from anything. None of those mechanics would be as relevant as an AOE cap protecting them with smart healing filling in for the absence of burst.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

JMadFour wrote: »

I see all these people bashing PVErs for zerging around in Imperial City. (as if it is ONLY PVE Carebears in these large groups)

I wonder what PVPers realistically thought that the PVErs would do in Imperial City? walk around solo and be gank fodder for you to take Stones from? Did you REALLY think Imp City would be a solo-roam-gank paradise?

Nope, they are going to zerg in numbers while you sit stealthed in the corner.

Game's built for large-scale pvp.it's the DAoC model, which is large zergs and keep sieges. Move it indoors, make something drop from players you kill...it's still gonna be large-scale PVP.

you want competitive small-group pvp? (btw, I am convinced that the majority of vocal PVPers don't actuall want competitive pvp, they just want small groups of carebears to gank, teabag, and take stuff from)

you are gonna have to wait until some sort of 4x4 Arena is patched in. and there won't be Tel Var Stones to take from players there.(which means the majority of "PVPers" won't partake.)

otherwise, what you are going to get is exactly what it is now. Large Roaming groups of players clashing.

PVP in MMOs is NEVER balanced or built around 1v1 and that is one of the primary problems that Forum PVPers have. they base EVERYTHING they suggest on 1v1 and the game is never built that way. It's always built around Group Vs Group combat, only the size of the group differs. But it is always GROUPvGROUP , NOT 1v1.

Its not even all PvPers though. This is a very very verbal minority even amongst the Forumites and PvPer Forumites. Players that refuse to adapt to the core games PvP focus and instead want to influence the Devs to do a balance pass that would swing the favor of gameplay into the style the game doesnt support. These are players that either cant, or wont take on the challenge of large scale PvP. And use fallacies to reinforce their view of the game (ie Its PvEers at fault for the current Zergballs in PvP, even though Zergballs have been a thing since day 1). Theyre well aware that theres nothing wrong with the PvP style in this game. But instead of going and finding another game that scratches that PvP itch of theirs. They have convinced themselves they can change this game to better suit them.

When you really look at these players argument. You can tell they dont represent PvPers as a whole as it swings the balance of the game into the hands of the few over the many.

Hahaha this is the most laughable post of all, where do you even start to pick this one apart?? Your opening literally suggests, "if you dont like this game, leave it and find another". Thats a great outlook on things, its clear theres going to be real constructive talks with you.

Cant or wont take on the challenge of large scale PvP? Its more likely Ive done more large scale PvP and influenced more large scale PvP than youll ever be able to in this game. Im just shy of General rank, took off from this game for a bit more than half a year and 95% of that XP is earned fighting large scale PvP in Cyro. Ive been through better times, and as we go forward, they just seemingly get worse and worse if youre not zerg balling. Thats really the point of the discussion.

Use fallacies to reinforce their view of the game? Youre talking about something with PVErs here I dont even know what youre talking about honestly. I dont care if youre PVP or PVE only - how you play and understanding how to utilize zergballs and AOE caps is the same. Additionally, I was here for the first few months of release and in beta PVP. There were not zergballs like there are today. Do you know why? There werent AOE caps, and there was dynamic ult gen, and they were countered by offering players a counter-balance to how many opponents they would swarm on other players. This just goes to show you dont know what youre talking about - at all.

Theres nothing wrong with the PvP style in this game? There isnt if you enjoy mass blobs that jam in skills in an overly simplistic fashion that really does away with so many of the skills put in the game. If you enjoy low FPS fights that ultimately will be weighed by how many people you bring rather than how well you play, then the game is working perfectly for you. Seems youre 100% in zerg group your entire play in this game. For that I feel sorry for you, because theres a lot more to this game than blobbing up and hoping you dont get a bigger blob running through you.

twistedmonk wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Well only 1 realm had the aoe stun and mez would break after first damage.... there was purge on 5/10/15 min timers, and a spammable single cast skill that unmezzed people.

So saying no way to break out would be wrong and very incorrect.

If you played DAOC from day one, you would know there was no purge when game launched. that was added later when they added realm abilities. there were no realm abilities when game launched...so no, you could not break out of CC

mez would break on damage, but here's what would happened.

A group of midgards would bumrush you at full speed buff and press one hotkey to aoe mez your entire group, locking your entire group in place where you can't even move or react. Then the pain train would start. The healer would then go one by one and stun each enemy player, who gets blown up in 1-2 seconds usually by a berserker left axe since left axe was bugged and ignored all your armor and basically 1-2 shot you. If the aoe mez runs out, the healer would then just reapply to whomever was left and continue the carnage.

That's how the game was at launch...that's how midgard got the nickname stungard.

any midgard group could do that...took very little skill other than pressing the aoe mez button first. they also had aoe stun too. this was only midgard.

On my server there was always a group of 4 running around with a runemaster named Meph, a healer, a skald (group speed buff), and a berserker left axe (basically one-shot people). and they exploited the unbreakable, chaining CC for months. As soon as Mythic fixed all those exploits, they all quit the game. go figure

but anyway...that's how it was...

ok if you want to start in the primeval phase of DAoC you have to have your things right.
Midgards healer got their AoE-cc with the implementation of realm abilities - they havent had any AoE-cc wich was entirely restricted to albions sorcs before that time. no one was playing skalds at that time too as they had only 1.0 skillpoints per lvl they were completly unable to dish out any dmg and combine it with their grp support role so midgard hat green/blue grp speed at that time 99% of the time while alb and hib were running around with purple as both minstrels and bards had a 1.5 skillpoint muliplyer.
your "pain train" of midgards melees was implemented with SI way after the implementation of RAs as that was the patch midgards shamans and albions pladins recieved their form of endu-reg for their groups. your example of berserkes or better left axe user in general had a completly broken dmg calculation (it did not ignore armor it just had a to high ability multiplier attached to it) wich no one denys but that was perfectly balanced before SI as you had stamina for exactly 2 attacks and 2sec of sprinting and then you were left autoattacking for 120dmg :P
back to your cc nightmare you are right 12 years ago that truly was a problem thx to 30minutes purge timer, but that has entirly been fixed by now over the last decade. and is now the most versatile and entertaining implementation of cc, rupt and ability options in any game offering any type of pvp currently playable.

but as you said.. "anyway"

back to the topic of aoe-dmg - they should have never implemented a cap by numbers but a dmg dropoff depending on distance from the aoe center (just like DAoC ) that way stacking would be significantly punished and naturally lead to a more spread out zerg behavior wich then would be vulnurable to singeltarget dds as you could not as easily as now heal players wich are now protected by dmg reduction, invul to singeltarget dds as they just step back one step and are unattackble inbetween their grpmates as you are hitting everything and their mother but not him.

i would love to get rid of smarthealing entirely (played healers for the last 15years) but that impossible with the implementation of this games targeting but atleast they could change it to require LOS (only targets within their frontal 120° arc can be affected and have to be visable targets behind obstacles are not affected either) that way healers would have a skillceiling again, wich they currently lack at all as healing way to oversimplified.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

@FENGRUSH

Do you think removing the AoE cap will make it possible for a handful of average players with moderate coordination to beat a zerg?

Because, if they cannot, the zerg will remain as prevalent as ever and it is only the few pro players working in close coordination who may survive end even farm the zerg occasionally.

I'm asking because there's clearly some doubt about whether you and your friends are arguing for the removal of the AoE cap for the benefit of the community, or only for the benefit of a few who meet your high standards of play.

Suppose AoE caps are removed and zergs still persist, even though they get beat occasionally. Will you admit the measure failed, or will you just say it's people's fault for not being as good as you?

Youre basically saying that almost every player is average - and even amongst the average players none can push themselves to become better players? Theres A LOT of great players in this game. Many of them are running in zergs because they want to PvP in Cyro and they dont have another option. Others gave up and moved to dueling, some have farmed CP until things got better, others quit. All of the people on that podcast know a ton of people that fall into these categories.

This isnt to benefit the 4 people on the podcast, there are tons of players in this game that want this and many that would actually come back to ESO if this happened.

Well, by definition lots of players are about average, right? And are you perhaps assuming here that "becoming better players" is synonymous with "develop an AoE centered build and gameplay style"? Throw in rapid ult regen and buff light armour and we're back where we were before. I'm sure some loved it, but many more loathed it. I certainly am very happy those days are gone. At least ZoS showed they were trying to curb that awfulness. Creating different awfulness, for sure, but still.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

@FENGRUSH

Do you think removing the AoE cap will make it possible for a handful of average players with moderate coordination to beat a zerg?

Because, if they cannot, the zerg will remain as prevalent as ever and it is only the few pro players working in close coordination who may survive end even farm the zerg occasionally.

I'm asking because there's clearly some doubt about whether you and your friends are arguing for the removal of the AoE cap for the benefit of the community, or only for the benefit of a few who meet your high standards of play.

Suppose AoE caps are removed and zergs still persist, even though they get beat occasionally. Will you admit the measure failed, or will you just say it's people's fault for not being as good as you?

Youre basically saying that almost every player is average - and even amongst the average players none can push themselves to become better players? Theres A LOT of great players in this game. Many of them are running in zergs because they want to PvP in Cyro and they dont have another option. Others gave up and moved to dueling, some have farmed CP until things got better, others quit. All of the people on that podcast know a ton of people that fall into these categories.

This isnt to benefit the 4 people on the podcast, there are tons of players in this game that want this and many that would actually come back to ESO if this happened.

twistedmonk wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

@FENGRUSH
Do you think removing the AoE cap will make it possible for a handful of average players with moderate coordination to beat a zerg?

so you are saying if an average group of lets say 5 goes up against an average group of players 20-30, they can beat them?

If they are equally skilled and have no other advantages then why would they beat them? It doesnt really matter. The real question to entertain is why do the 20-30 players have AOE caps which literally prevents the 5 from even trying? This instills into them that they should zerg because they will be so discouraged having to walk away from that fight not even being able to kill 1 player. Sure, they should lose - but literally; they wont kill anyone because of AOE caps. Even if amongst those 20-30 there was a couple first time players to PvP who literally didnt even use a skill on their bar, wouldnt have CC broke anything, nor defended themselves from anything. None of those mechanics would be as relevant as an AOE cap protecting them with smart healing filling in for the absence of burst.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

JMadFour wrote: »

I see all these people bashing PVErs for zerging around in Imperial City. (as if it is ONLY PVE Carebears in these large groups)

I wonder what PVPers realistically thought that the PVErs would do in Imperial City? walk around solo and be gank fodder for you to take Stones from? Did you REALLY think Imp City would be a solo-roam-gank paradise?

Nope, they are going to zerg in numbers while you sit stealthed in the corner.

Game's built for large-scale pvp.it's the DAoC model, which is large zergs and keep sieges. Move it indoors, make something drop from players you kill...it's still gonna be large-scale PVP.

you want competitive small-group pvp? (btw, I am convinced that the majority of vocal PVPers don't actuall want competitive pvp, they just want small groups of carebears to gank, teabag, and take stuff from)

you are gonna have to wait until some sort of 4x4 Arena is patched in. and there won't be Tel Var Stones to take from players there.(which means the majority of "PVPers" won't partake.)

otherwise, what you are going to get is exactly what it is now. Large Roaming groups of players clashing.

PVP in MMOs is NEVER balanced or built around 1v1 and that is one of the primary problems that Forum PVPers have. they base EVERYTHING they suggest on 1v1 and the game is never built that way. It's always built around Group Vs Group combat, only the size of the group differs. But it is always GROUPvGROUP , NOT 1v1.

Its not even all PvPers though. This is a very very verbal minority even amongst the Forumites and PvPer Forumites. Players that refuse to adapt to the core games PvP focus and instead want to influence the Devs to do a balance pass that would swing the favor of gameplay into the style the game doesnt support. These are players that either cant, or wont take on the challenge of large scale PvP. And use fallacies to reinforce their view of the game (ie Its PvEers at fault for the current Zergballs in PvP, even though Zergballs have been a thing since day 1). Theyre well aware that theres nothing wrong with the PvP style in this game. But instead of going and finding another game that scratches that PvP itch of theirs. They have convinced themselves they can change this game to better suit them.

When you really look at these players argument. You can tell they dont represent PvPers as a whole as it swings the balance of the game into the hands of the few over the many.

Hahaha this is the most laughable post of all, where do you even start to pick this one apart?? Your opening literally suggests, "if you dont like this game, leave it and find another". Thats a great outlook on things, its clear theres going to be real constructive talks with you.

Cant or wont take on the challenge of large scale PvP? Its more likely Ive done more large scale PvP and influenced more large scale PvP than youll ever be able to in this game. Im just shy of General rank, took off from this game for a bit more than half a year and 95% of that XP is earned fighting large scale PvP in Cyro. Ive been through better times, and as we go forward, they just seemingly get worse and worse if youre not zerg balling. Thats really the point of the discussion.

Use fallacies to reinforce their view of the game? Youre talking about something with PVErs here I dont even know what youre talking about honestly. I dont care if youre PVP or PVE only - how you play and understanding how to utilize zergballs and AOE caps is the same. Additionally, I was here for the first few months of release and in beta PVP. There were not zergballs like there are today. Do you know why? There werent AOE caps, and there was dynamic ult gen, and they were countered by offering players a counter-balance to how many opponents they would swarm on other players. This just goes to show you dont know what youre talking about - at all.

Theres nothing wrong with the PvP style in this game? There isnt if you enjoy mass blobs that jam in skills in an overly simplistic fashion that really does away with so many of the skills put in the game. If you enjoy low FPS fights that ultimately will be weighed by how many people you bring rather than how well you play, then the game is working perfectly for you. Seems youre 100% in zerg group your entire play in this game. For that I feel sorry for you, because theres a lot more to this game than blobbing up and hoping you dont get a bigger blob running through you.

Wheres your numbers? How many players in game can you list off that want this..By all means back up that claim. Same for all the players you claim would come back...I'll be waiting.

Every poll that has asked about the AOE cap on this forum has consistently and overwhelmingly supported their removal. Here is one from April 2014 - from the beginning of the game - with thousands of votes: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

87% percent of respondents answered "No" to the question "Do you think there should be an AoE cap?" The PvP community, by any measurable index, has never wanted an AoE cap in. There is evidence to support that. Where is the evidence to support that PvPers want an AoE cap?

Youre really starting to lay that ego on thick. Not surprising that you also think your ideas are welcomed by people you have no right to speak for ... To think that you and a small group of players should be able to sway a battle with a larger mass of players is absurd and egotistical. That your skills, whatever that may be, should overcome the coordinated efforts of many more

Way to misrepresent his argument. His point was that these groups are not coordinated. It is not about an ego stroke. The issue is whether or not players should automatically derive an in-game advantage for simply standing next to 6 other players rather than using their class abilities or by playing tactically. It is not absurd or egotistical to think that a smaller group who actually coordinates their moves and abilities should have the chance to defeat a larger group that does not (he gave specific examples like a healer who just blindly spams a healing skill that automatically goes to the player most in need). That is a perfectly rationale perspective.

Nijjion wrote: »

Perfectly said... Daoc never needed damage/target caps and that had bigger zergs than eso ever had.

This +1