AoE Cap - Lord Fengrush hits it on the head

aco5712 · October 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk6oYAiQGNo

59:00 onwards. What @FENGRUSH says is how every single person that loves pvp feels.

What they say about dynamic ulti gen is also the truth.

Good work on this podcast guys, enjoyed watching.

Yonkit · October 2015

aco5712 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk6oYAiQGNo

59:00 onwards. What @FENGRUSH says is how every single person that loves pvp feels.

What they say about dynamic ulti gen is also the truth.

Good work on this podcast guys, enjoyed watching.

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

All hail Lord Fengrush.

aco5712 · October 2015

I think we need to scrap alliance point emperors and instead vote in a emperor every 2 weeks. Lord Fengrush can become Emperor Fengrush!

Zheg · October 2015

Fully agree that healing should be harder and require positioning rather than just spamming breath of life.

Fully agree that aoe caps need work. I believe ZOS originally said full removal would impede performance, though I'm not sure if that still holds true given that they're now doing calcs to halve and quarter damage after the initial 6 people are hit.

Fully agree the 50% damage mitigation is just bonkers, and indicative of awful combat design. If you need to mitigate the damage that much in pvp, your original numbers were wrong to begin with.

Fully disagree with the underlying tone that the pvp mechanics should be catered to a 4 man sized group. GW2 had 4-man spvp instances, but it also had full wvw because that's where large-scale fighting with large-scale groups is supposed to occur. Cyrodiil is supposed to be large groups fighting each other, not a bunch of small mans. I certainly appreciate the lack of an arena where solo or small groups can fight each other - I'd love for that to be added. For regular Cyrodiil though, a 4-man squad should not be able to take a keep. Period.

The game should reward the group that can take ~20 people and coordinate. There are too many youtube egos who bemoan pvp groups that aren't even at the full group size the game allows and yet have never tried to coordinate that many. It's no easy task. I can promise you it's harder than running solo, and harder than running a 4 man. To clarify, this does not mean I'm advocating the size of the blue group on Azuras, the gigantic yellow blobs on TF on sunday/tuesday/thursday, or the red zerg for that matter. But the mechanics of Cyrodiil should indeed favor groups - just trying to coordinate enough people to be on at the same time can be difficult. I'd like to see some of the youtube egos actually lead a 20 man group in Cyrodiil during prime-time against a veteran pvp guild. I've solo wiped a group of 10 trying to take a keep before, but that should be the exception, not the norm. /soapboxrant.

briandivisionb16_ESO · October 2015

Time and time again ZOS ignores PvPers. Like most of my guild who PvP I haven't played in a week, just lingering around a while hoping for changes. Hoping they're imminent.

FireCowCommando · October 2015

Yes pls, dont continue to give players an incentive to ball up and 'zone out' pressing 1 or 2 abilities for hours on end.

briandivisionb16_ESO · October 2015

I made this thread a year ago. Its still an issue:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/122609/old-thread-remastered-aoe-cap-and-zergtrains-thoughts-to-date/p1

WHY AM WE STILL PVPING HERE? WHY AM I STILL PVPING HERE????

briandivisionb16_ESO · October 2015

Beesting wrote: »

People can still group up and enter campains where they are not homed to wreck face to the locals. This should stop.
Also the gated access could be implemented now, stimulating more people to leave the sewers and help defend keeps.
But i honestly dont know if this would fix the current problem...

FireCowCommando wrote: »

battlegrounds! elo system!

CaptainObvious wrote: »

If your party is larger than the current opposition, then proximity detonation backfires.

I particularly like this but how about the skill just doesn't work if your group is larger?

Zorrashi wrote: »

How about just buffs/debuffs based on group size?

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

If you were to reduce AP gains like XP gains, but go even further... like 50% reduction of AP total at a number and another 50% at another (and so on). Zerging would no longer be something you saw as often.

Wollust wrote: »

I actually wouldn't have a problem with these kinda groups if it wasn't for AoE-Caps protecting the zergs balling up on the crown which gives free damage mitigation. Lag and Steel Tornado = broken

Proxy Detonation: capped with 6 targets. WTF? AoE-caps are the most broken thing in this game.

"phairdon wrote: »

Make pvp specific maps for small scale action.

CrowsDescend wrote: »

We used to be able to use a sneaky Coldharbour siege weapon to make the zergs disperse, but now they hit like a wet noodle. I would (also) strongly suggest upping Siege Weapon damage because it's just dramatically low right now.

DEATHquidox wrote: »

Id say theres 4 morphs to magicka det for a stam version and with both on self and target to stop the zergs and dont have a damage cap for all the people in it.

SneaK wrote: »

I think removing certain AOE caps would allow smaller groups to tactically bust zergs.

firstdecan wrote: »

having an NPC spy or spotter network that would provide periodic heatmaps of opposing player populations.

SneaK wrote: »

They can just storm into the hallway of the bridge without worrying about oil, or being snared and proxy'd. If there were a counter for them (siege/proxdet/something), smaller groups would at least have a fighting chance TO SLOW THEM DOWN

Olivierko wrote: »

I believe that the best solution for competitive PvP would be Battlegrounds/Arenas of some sort which are instanced with dedicated leaderboards.

Robbmrp wrote: »

If you want to get rid of Zergs, then the problems creating them must go away first. Otherwise people will continue to do what they must to survive.

NOT A PEEP FROM ZOS. AGAIN, WHY AM I STILL HERE?

OtarTheMad · October 2015

Definitely agree with what you guys said about PVP. Fengrush at 59 minutes summed it up.

I mainly PVP, you could call me a casual if you want... I am not going to care but when I am trying to defend a keep or in IC sewers and we have 30+ PvEers just zerging through casting barriers and purging everything under the sun it becomes discouraging. I remember having 4-6 oils dropping on this group that was sieging a front door and it did absolutely nothing... it was like I was dropping water to get them all wet.

I fought most of you guys as AD, Fengrush often times comes into Haderus sewers and it's fun. I hate it when AD PvEers run away, lol, so frustrating. @Fengrush, not sure if you remember but we had a pretty fun fight on my NB yesterday I believe or Friday night (Mithllon Vules) and you died from the banner guard agro I dragged with me. Then you killed me later, lol, fun fights. My skills are rusty because of the lack of good small combat but it's always fun.

Hopefully ZOS listens to you guys and this game can go on for a long time.

Rylana · October 2015

Fengrush, I agree that zerg busting should be a thing. A 5-10 man group should have a reasonable chance of getting kills, in some cases many kills on much larger groups.

I have started leaning towards the removal but I have a major reservation.

Imagine a non aoe capped Haxus, Vehemence, GoS, KHole or a similar sub-raid sized coordinated group. a 12-16 man solid group that can already bust a 40+ man zergball. Now remove the AoE caps. What have you just created? You literally just made a high damage small-medium man bomb group completely unbeatable, and at the same time even if those groups meet up vs each other, its a damage war, whoever has the most DPS would then win every fight. Forget healing and movement, boom boom kapow.

There are only two guilds in the game right now that on even numbers footing even gives GoS a challenge (and no I am not claiming we are the best, I am simply stating the current state of the game for us) and that is VE (DC) and Rage(AD). This is generally speaking of course, and there are other smaller groups and conglomerates like Khole and Tertiary Meat that if they had up to 15-20 guys probably would be able to take us on fairly well.

My point in this is that besides those named, the only time we ever lose a fight, is when we are outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1 or even more. But we SHOULD lose those fights, or at least barely eke out a win via superior strategy and movement.

If you removed AoE caps, those 50-60 man zergballs that are REQUIRED to beat us, would be completely useless. What you would see is basically the top six or seven 12-20 man organized groups basically rendering the entire rest of the population null and just slamming each other with as much damage as they can stack.

Now imagine your four man squad running into one of those 16 man high DPS groups. You might think four people would bust them, but the reality is youre going to be running 4 equal footing into 16 equal footing in a game where burst DPS has been nerfed so hard for PvP that youre basically ensuring the death of smallman. Its already in a bad enough state. This potentially makes it actually worse, considering the truly organized groups already out there.

The real issue in this game is how damage stacking benefits by force multiplication. Why have one prox det when you can have 10 all at once. Nothing will survive that. Only takes 10. Thats not a very large group.

Knootewoot · October 2015

I agree with Fengrush. But how long will it take before Zeni understands and fixes this? This will be never, or long after the majority of the people have left PvP.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · October 2015

I think that the legendary 4-man should not be able to take out every other group per se. They should be able to do so, if the others have no clue at all. But regardless if the 4 (or 8 or whatever) engage the bigger group with a lot of damage, people should drop. There should be no safety in numbers just because of the numbers. I'm okay when their mates react and heal them, that's how it should work. But just standing there and being protected because there are six others also just standing there, no.

SkylarkAU · October 2015

I agreed with Fengrush at first, but now I also see the point in Rylanas comments.

I think what is for certain is that there are fundamental issues with pvp that have heavily influenced the direction the game has taken ultimately creating and/or exacerbating these problems, and they are population imbalances and server performance.

sagitter · October 2015

I agree for aoe cap, but sorry I disagree for old ulti regen, it was so broken, especially with the dk battle roar passive, a dk could have infinite resources 1 vs x, and it is so discouraging that 4 of better players can t remember about how broken it was.

Wycks · October 2015

1v1 , 1vx and even 2v2 is a small meta of the game, just like it was in WOW, its something fun that happens outside the city.

Small scale PvP should be medium sized battlegrounds where each side is capped to between 15-40 players with leader-boards, rewards and strategy based not just on players but terrain.

If done right it will allow for both medium (10-12) and small(1-5) teams to have an effect on the battlefield. To be honest I don't think ZOS has the capability to actually get it right .

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2015

More powerful siege that:

1. Does 30k damage and the DOT's do another 15k or so.
2. Siege that ignores damage shields and barrier.
3. Siege whose DOTS and effects are not Purgable except by using the Templar;s Extended Ritual Synergy that has a cooldown.

That's the only way you will ever stop zergs....You have to make it impossible to outheal siege damage, and siege damage should ignore damage shields and barrier and be unpurgable.

This forces folks to spread out or die...this makes running around in alrge train spamming heals and purge simply not viable because you will die.

operating a Siege Weapon leaves you vulnerable,. its clunky, you lose access to your skill bar, and it must be packed and unpacked...it should hit mega hard for these reasons...the fact a stealth attack from a bow or a stealth Wrecking Blow hits harder then siege which is firing a 350 pound piece of flaming rock at a stupid high velocity to your face and you can simply shurg it off is why this game is zerg, zerg, zerg.

With the downsides siege has, it should be the zerg buster, and it should hit harder then any skill in the game, and its effects should not be purgable and damage sheilds should not protect you from them either...until then, this game will continue to be zerg, zerg, zerg.

Zheg · October 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

More powerful siege that:

1. Does 30k damage and the DOT's do another 15k or so.
2. Siege that ignores damage shields and barrier.
3. Siege whose DOTS and effects are not Purgable except by using the Templar;s Extended Ritual Synergy that has a cooldown.

That's the only way you will ever stop zergs....You have to make it impossible to outheal siege damage, and siege damage should ignore damage shields and barrier and be unpurgable.

This forces folks to spread out or die...this makes running around in alrge train spamming heals and purge simply not viable because you will die.

operating a Siege Weapon leaves you vulnerable,. its clunky, you lose access to your skill bar, and it must be packed and unpacked...it should hit mega hard for these reasons...the fact a stealth attack from a bow or a stealth Wrecking Blow hits harder then siege which is firing a 350 pound piece of flaming rock at a stupid high velocity to your face and you can simply shurg it off is why this game is zerg, zerg, zerg.

With the downsides siege has, it should be the zerg buster, and it should hit harder then any skill in the game, and its effects should not be purgable and damage sheilds should not protect you from them either...until then, this game will continue to be zerg, zerg, zerg.

30k damage!? LOL - what are you on dude? And then you want dots on top of that? Do you actually pvp, or is this an armchair dev thing?

Stikato · October 2015

Fengrush nailed it. Purge ball groups are so dumb. AOE caps provide them with a damage reduction on top of the 50% with battle spirit. You can position and initiate like a god on these ball groups, and it's hard to even make a dent.

Stikato · October 2015

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

I think that the legendary 4-man should not be able to take out every other group per se. They should be able to do so, if the others have no clue at all. But regardless if the 4 (or 8 or whatever) engage the bigger group with a lot of damage, people should drop. There should be no safety in numbers just because of the numbers. I'm okay when their mates react and heal them, that's how it should work. But just standing there and being protected because there are six others also just standing there, no.

Exactly this. There should not be damage reduction just because others standing nearby. It's an artificial limit that has caused very cheesy and frustrating gameplay.

Huggalump · October 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Fengrush, I agree that zerg busting should be a thing. A 5-10 man group should have a reasonable chance of getting kills, in some cases many kills on much larger groups.

I have started leaning towards the removal but I have a major reservation.

Imagine a non aoe capped Haxus, Vehemence, GoS, KHole or a similar sub-raid sized coordinated group. a 12-16 man solid group that can already bust a 40+ man zergball. Now remove the AoE caps. What have you just created? You literally just made a high damage small-medium man bomb group completely unbeatable, and at the same time even if those groups meet up vs each other, its a damage war, whoever has the most DPS would then win every fight. Forget healing and movement, boom boom kapow.

There are only two guilds in the game right now that on even numbers footing even gives GoS a challenge (and no I am not claiming we are the best, I am simply stating the current state of the game for us) and that is VE (DC) and Rage(AD). This is generally speaking of course, and there are other smaller groups and conglomerates like Khole and Tertiary Meat that if they had up to 15-20 guys probably would be able to take us on fairly well.

My point in this is that besides those named, the only time we ever lose a fight, is when we are outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1 or even more. But we SHOULD lose those fights, or at least barely eke out a win via superior strategy and movement.

If you removed AoE caps, those 50-60 man zergballs that are REQUIRED to beat us, would be completely useless. What you would see is basically the top six or seven 12-20 man organized groups basically rendering the entire rest of the population null and just slamming each other with as much damage as they can stack.

Now imagine your four man squad running into one of those 16 man high DPS groups. You might think four people would bust them, but the reality is youre going to be running 4 equal footing into 16 equal footing in a game where burst DPS has been nerfed so hard for PvP that youre basically ensuring the death of smallman. Its already in a bad enough state. This potentially makes it actually worse, considering the truly organized groups already out there.

The real issue in this game is how damage stacking benefits by force multiplication. Why have one prox det when you can have 10 all at once. Nothing will survive that. Only takes 10. Thats not a very large group.

really simple response. To the groups you beat... get good. Without caps, if it was a good group of 40 vs your good group of 12, that good group of 40 would win.

Good groups should beat bad groups. The fundamental mechanics of the game shouldn't change to allow bad groups to be on even footing with good groups.

Gunphu · October 2015

AoE damage caps should go away and healing/barrier should cap out at a certain number of people and be directional or something. Intial damage from siege weapons needs to be increased aswell.

If campaigns are going to remain this emtpy then some need to be closed and look into some sort of forward base camps for the lowest population/ losing faction.

Medium/small scale also please!

Kupoking · October 2015

you guys do realize that if you remove aoe caps, zergs of 40+ players' aoe will be un capped too.

now imagine half of them running steel tornado hitting for lets say 4000 each with no cap to aoe.

80k dmg to everyone a pop. It would take only 5 of them to hit the buttin all at once to one shot most people. ( remember someone multiboxing multiple sorcs spamming impulse)

With uncapped healing for aoes like Combat prayer, which means it takes less healers to sustain those raids.

The main thing that would help small groups in those situations would be aoe CC being uncapped and the use of it at the right moment but then again it could backfire as zergs can also use this.

Now i'm not saying i'm against aoe caps removal, but then again I lean more towards a gradual change into it so we fond the softspot.

I think for now a good solution might be to remove aoe caps on ground aoe ults like Negate, Nova, DK standard to begin with. Then expand from there.

Molag_Crow · October 2015

Absolutely agreed.

Tankqull · October 2015

they proclaim DAoC to be an ancestor, why not use its awesome example in regards of uncaped aoe´s?
its like allways in games reinventing the tire over and over and over from the first stone wheel to end up with the same racing slicks other games allready had a decade ago...

Kupoking · October 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

they proclaim DAoC to be an ancestor, why not use its awesome example in regards of uncaped aoe´s?
its like allways in games reinventing the tire over and over and over from the first stone wheel to end up with the same racing slicks other games allready had a decade ago...

Yeah well a lot of people disliked aoe mezz if that is what you are referring too. Especially bard who would do it instant compared to toher realm who had it on cast time if I remember correctly.

As far as aoe damage, aoe spells at ranged didnt hit that hard and cast would be easily interrupted. PBAoE were strong, yes, but would require enemies to be clumped up which never really happened we were also easily interrupted and it had to be accompanied by an aoe stun.

Also, the game was a rock, paper sissors type and archer were quite amazing at taking down those aoe beasts.

to conclude, in ESO the game is more fast paced and lets just say the combat mech is so different that its hard to compare both systems.

Hiero_Glyph · October 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

you guys do realize that if you remove aoe caps, zergs of 40+ players' aoe will be un capped too.

now imagine half of them running steel tornado hitting for lets say 4000 each with no cap to aoe.

80k dmg to everyone a pop. It would take only 5 of them to hit the buttin all at once to one shot most people. ( remember someone multiboxing multiple sorcs spamming impulse)

With uncapped healing for aoes like Combat prayer, which means it takes less healers to sustain those raids.

The main thing that would help small groups in those situations would be aoe CC being uncapped and the use of it at the right moment but then again it could backfire as zergs can also use this.

Now i'm not saying i'm against aoe caps removal, but then again I lean more towards a gradual change into it so we fond the softspot.

I think for now a good solution might be to remove aoe caps on ground aoe ults like Negate, Nova, DK standard to begin with. Then expand from there.

If you are in a smaller group the larger group is practically uncapped already. Let's say you are in an 8-player group against a 20-player group. The larger group only hits 2 players from the smaller group at reduced damage while the smaller group hits up to 14 players at reduced damage. Who cares if the zerg doesn't have capped damage since it only matters once you get 12+ players since half of the group would have their damage reduced. At that point you aren't really a small group anymore so removing any AoE cap doesn't really benefit you.

Again, the AoE cap is 6 players. If you are in a group of 6 or less you are only hurt by an AoE cap. The bigger the group the more benefit the AoE cap gives them, not for dealing damage but from preventing it since only 6 players are taking full damage. Healing, shields and buffs only compound this issue further.

nimander99 · October 2015

59:00 on, Nailed it!

As far as ChampSys goes at this point, I FEEL LIKE IM TAKING CRAZY PILLS!!!

Just make the ChampSys a PVE ONLY system... why will nobody talk about this? Have it completely disabled in PVP! It's so simple, I swear to god this is driving me nuts...

Gunphu · October 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

you guys do realize that if you remove aoe caps, zergs of 40+ players' aoe will be un capped too.

now imagine half of them running steel tornado hitting for lets say 4000 each with no cap to aoe.

80k dmg to everyone a pop. It would take only 5 of them to hit the buttin all at once to one shot most people. ( remember someone multiboxing multiple sorcs spamming impulse)

With uncapped healing for aoes like Combat prayer, which means it takes less healers to sustain those raids.

The main thing that would help small groups in those situations would be aoe CC being uncapped and the use of it at the right moment but then again it could backfire as zergs can also use this.

Now i'm not saying i'm against aoe caps removal, but then again I lean more towards a gradual change into it so we fond the softspot.

I think for now a good solution might be to remove aoe caps on ground aoe ults like Negate, Nova, DK standard to begin with. Then expand from there.

As is it doesnt matter cause they steam roll everything with zero skill, tactics, or even usually have a clue what they are doing. Removing the cap would obviously help smaller groups and out numbered factions more than hurting them.

AoE healing absolutely needs a cap and a strong one. I love the part when fengrush talks about the healer staring at a wall clueless to what going on and still able to heal the zerg thats getting ambushed and probably wont ever know it.

They are literally walking globs of endless healing, crazy mitigation, no tactics, and very low skill. Yet they are unstoppable. Dont forget the set bonuses that actually promote and buff this mess.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · October 2015

Homogenization is the death knell of a game, in either pve or pvp. I'd much rather attention be given to underused skills than trying to make every class a jack of all trades. I personally like doing against the grain because I don't like feeling pidgeonholed into relying on something everyone and their mom uses, but at the same time my potential suffers because I DON'T use something everyone and their mom uses. That just isn't right. Touching on what they talked about temps, I remember seeing a vid someone posted from back in the day of a 1vx temp using radial sweep. Well I might as well have forgotten what that is because I just don't see it used in pvp anymore. It's either the healy thing if they're healing or the swirly ball globe thing if they want to deal damage. I don't know if he still plays, but I remember one temp, Broxz who just went balls deep charging into battle and usually took out a good chunk of enemies before going down. It's a lack of attention to detail in balance that is causing alot of antagonism between devs and players. Even if it would be a herculean effort, things would work better if they took the time to examine and refine each ability for the classes than make big sweeping blanket nerfs/buffs. That's just hurting everyone in the long run.

Alot of problems I think stem from the fact that the dev team is just dead set on crowbaring heavy/light attack useage and weaving into all aspects of gameplay. Even set bonuses hinge on that, and not just a couple, a LOT of them. Most ES games heavy and light attacks don't carry any special abilities. You just do them. It's not going to work having heavy/light attacks serving as the crux of combat. They should complement your skills, not vice versa.

Limiting the types of sets available in pvp is another mistake. Instead of 'retiring' sets so abruptly, give people options. Make something that makes people say hrm do I wanna use this that does this with this, or do I want to stick with this because it does this as well? I noticed in the stream they overlooked the fact that alot of 'mainstays' available from Cyro sets did NOT get upgraded to v16, so we're left with all the oddballs that not many people would want to use, or would only use if they felt they liked it. Is it that hard to code in v16 AP bags? it took, what, 4 months for that to happen with v14 the last time this came up, but back then we had a good amount of time to break in that gear and put it to solid use. Adding in these forced grinds to get to the 'top' just to throw all that away in the literal blink of an eye and expecting everyone to grind yet again in the span of weeks or months is just disgusting.

I still see pvp in IC, but it's either zerg groups in sewers, small groups in the districts for dailies, or solo gankers. I think Memorial caters best to current pvp because it's alot more open in comparison to the other districts: everyone just spawns and spills back into the meatgrinder. Unless it is the smaller groups or soloers, there just isn't a real reason to pvp in the other districts. You can't control them even tho I remember there was something stated that factions could seize control of districts for special rewards or utilities. That apparently didn't materialize.

I don't think IC is going to die per se. There''s still fighting in Memorial. There's still gankers in the districts. There's still zergballs in the sewers. Every time I think a district is dead and I can peacefully kill daedroths for their teeth, some AD guy pops out and tries to jump me. It happens as well as it should. But the devs did drop the ball with IC. I like the feel of it and seeing it in a scale meant to be seen, but there's so much more potential. I think they should have added trials for the arcane university/magesterium? and Waterfront. Arena probably could have been something more than a generic fight x monsters in sequential order sort of thing. Why not have a perverted version of Oblivion arena where you talk to a dremora and he offers to take bets on you fighting monsters, and enemy players can jump in to mix things up, and all the while he'll guffaw about it because hey he loves conflict, and should you survive you'll get good rewards but if you lose tough cookies lol. They also should have added public dungeons exclusive to the island itself. Abagarlas featured heavily in fighter's guild storyline, but it's technically buried deep under the island because Meridia sunk the crap out of it.

Orsinium shouldn't launch without something comparable for PVP players in regards to gear. It always happens every time there's a pve update that PVP kind of fizzles out because everyone's doing DSA. or trials, or whatever the next big thing is in regards to gear. Players shouldn't feel forced to do one or the other to gain an edge, it should be a choice. If they added master weaps available for 1 million ap, I'd totally spring for that because even for a moderate pvper like myself, that much AP isn't that hard to get as long as I put in the effort. I COULD get a master weap from running vet something or other, but would it be easier when I have sketchy luck securing solid 4 mans much less the item I actually want to begin with?

I have a friend who is a die hard pve-er. I don't think he's even set foot in Cyro, not even to get skyshards or the dungeon achievements. He just doesn't want to PVP at all. Even though he bemoans endgame PVE stagnation, I've tried to twist his arm into pVPing but he remains steadfast. That's his CHOICE. He shouldn't get punished for it, no one should.

I really don't like this feeling that ZOS is deliberately doing the wrong thing or implementing features that *** people off en masse then wonder at their board meetings why they're not raking it in. ESO is a awesome game on its own but it could be more, and I don't understand the mentality that corporate monkeys have where they think they can deliver sub-par product and expect staggering profits. It hasn't worked for alot of other companies, why should it work here? It doesn't, and the community will only continue to suffer if things aren't addressed in a solid manner.

Kupoking · October 2015

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

you guys do realize that if you remove aoe caps, zergs of 40+ players' aoe will be un capped too.

now imagine half of them running steel tornado hitting for lets say 4000 each with no cap to aoe.

80k dmg to everyone a pop. It would take only 5 of them to hit the buttin all at once to one shot most people. ( remember someone multiboxing multiple sorcs spamming impulse)

With uncapped healing for aoes like Combat prayer, which means it takes less healers to sustain those raids.

The main thing that would help small groups in those situations would be aoe CC being uncapped and the use of it at the right moment but then again it could backfire as zergs can also use this.

Now i'm not saying i'm against aoe caps removal, but then again I lean more towards a gradual change into it so we fond the softspot.

I think for now a good solution might be to remove aoe caps on ground aoe ults like Negate, Nova, DK standard to begin with. Then expand from there.

If you are in a smaller group the larger group is practically uncapped already. Let's say you are in an 8-player group against a 20-player group. The larger group only hits 2 players from the smaller group at reduced damage while the smaller grop hits up to 14 players at reduced damage. Who cares if the zerg doesn't have capped damage since it only matters once you get 12+ players since half of the group would have their damage reduced. At that point you aren't really a small group anymore so removing any AoE cap doesn't really benefit you.

Again, the AoE cap is 6 players. If you are in a group of 6 or less you are only hurt by an AoE cap. The bigger the group the more benefit the AoE cap gives them, not for dealing damage but from preventing it since only 6 players are taking full damage. Healing, shields and buffs only compound this issue further.

You are right in theory, but back when aoe were not capped some groups of 24+ would all run impulse, and impluse only. Ult wise, negate was uncapped (and extremely powerful back then), so was Batswarm (and the heal you got out of the right morph), so imagine tangling with this with a grp of 8.

There was litteraly a guy who would multibox 12 characters by himself who could run over everything using bats, impulse. thats not fit for a skill based game. Uncapping Spammable AoE damage abilities that are instant would basically require everyone to fight with these.

As of the arguement of a grp of 24 dealing uncapped aoe damage already: its totally false. when I aoe in a 20 vs 20 fight I would hit different enemies every pop and that does show in you dmg meters, leasing time for the 6 1st ppl I damage to get healed as I damage 6 other people.

With aoe damage uncapped, Small groups would simply die even faster, and with the rise of steel tornado with insane range, that would mulitply it. The only situation it would work in would be to time bombs at the same moment. But then again, a zerg of 40 would simply have to separate their grp in two grps of 20 and place the apart.

As of the point of being a grp of 6 is a bad spot due to aoe cap, mind you that aoe heals and bubbles are also capped at 6 so you get maximum benefit from it whereas the zerg of 24 doesnt.

I'm telling you, right now to promote skill and zerg busting the right thing to do would be to remove caps only on aoe ground targetted ultimates. The use of those at the right time would lead into more success for good coordinated teams.

Tankqull · October 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

they proclaim DAoC to be an ancestor, why not use its awesome example in regards of uncaped aoe´s?
its like allways in games reinventing the tire over and over and over from the first stone wheel to end up with the same racing slicks other games allready had a decade ago...

Yeah well a lot of people disliked aoe mezz if that is what you are referring too. Especially bard who would do it instant compared to toher realm who had it on cast time if I remember correctly.

As far as aoe damage, aoe spells at ranged didnt hit that hard and cast would be easily interrupted. PBAoE were strong, yes, but would require enemies to be clumped up which never really happened we were also easily interrupted and it had to be accompanied by an aoe stun.

Also, the game was a rock, paper sissors type and archer were quite amazing at taking down those aoe beasts.

to conclude, in ESO the game is more fast paced and lets just say the combat mech is so different that its hard to compare both systems.

what i relate to is the range dependend dmg drop off. not the cc system wich now is great too.